Software isn't a tangible item that you can buy. I know of NO software manufacturer that SELLS its product. They LICENSE their product. They license use rights and they have the ability to specify how the software should be used. Kind of the same thing that we do.
Here are some examples...
ACADEMIC Software - used only for school, educational, etc. use. Quite clever, actually, if you teach all of the up and coming technology users how to use your products while they are in training, what are they gonna use when they graduate? Exactly. Smart marketing.
OEM Software - for sale only with the sale of a new computer. Also smart marketing. Used to build market share and penetration of a particular product in a certain category. Hugely discounted - if Dell is selling 20 million new machines, why wouldn't Microsoft (or whomever) offer a smack-daddy discount on 20,000,000 copies of Windows? Shoot. That's a no brainer.
UPGRADE Software - discounts for existing customers. They recognize that you have committed to the company/product and are rewarding you for being a long-time user.
VOLUME LICENSING - if 'ya buy more of something you get a discount. Whether that is a six pack, a pizza, or software. Most software manufacturers, though, don't allow you to aggregate your purchases across non-related/non-affiliated firms.
But I know everybody here already knew most of that.
Come now, do you really expect anyone to believe that?
Because the company doesn't have ownership rights to the software (remember, they license it - they don't purchase it & they don't own it) and they have no right to resell, lend, lease, rent, loan, etc. It's really no different than me taking a brand new $100 bill and scanning it with a great new scanner and printing 10,000 copies on that nice new color printer that I have. I can assure you I'd make plenty of copies that would fool some people. How come I don't do it? Because it's against the law.
I get that my tone has been somewhat adversarial here - that's not my intent. But we all should know what's right and what's wrong, especially since many of us are professional photographers who earn their living based upon their customers respecting your intellectual property rights. I find it exceptionally difficult to believe that one who might be able to afford a state of the art machine that is loaded and ready to run Creative Suite 3 can't afford to purchase a copy of Creative Suite. Especially given that it's reasonable to believe a creative professional could easily earn that amount in a month. Or week. Or few days. Or a day.
Finally, thank you to the anonomous person who PayPaled me $150 - I was actually kidding and didn't expect anyone to do that. But I'm still keeping it.
Thank you for the lesson in semantics, as well as the lesson in beating a dead horse.
Thank you for the lesson in semantics, as well as the lesson in beating a dead horse.
I'm not sure it is a semantic discussion, but it's clear that not everybody figured out the power of truth.
I wonder if this thread would have been any different if the OP had taken the time to read some of the responses - instead of running right out within 12 hours and sending his money off for the deal of a lifetime?
You guys might sense that this is one of my pet peeves... probably. But how many of you post your raw files on a public website that is available to your clients?
:deadhorse Thank you to all for the input. I am awaiting a reply from them regarding their 100% money back guarantee, and if they fail to comply, I'll try going to my bank and see what I can do...but it might have just been a $150 lesson. :pissed
danbrew, I don't care if you believed me or not, because I know what I believed, and I'm sure most of the others on here see; I was trying to buy a cheap, LEGAL product...why would I be interested in purchasing a pirated program if I wanted to use it to start a legitimate business? Thanks for the info on rights and licensing...I knew most of that, but I get it mixed up sometimes (I should have, but never took any business, economics, or law classes in school...fine art major) I don't have enough money because just starting out after college...It's not that easy to make a living as a freelance assistant in Wisconsin(after rent, bills, school loans, insurance), there's not much leftover...and I am not comfortable in trying to start building clients until I have at least some equipment to work with...of course camera was first...a couple years ago...and this past month I finally had enough saved up for the MBP. I joined smugmug to see if I had a chance of selling some work in the meantime, and dgrin to learn more and hone my craft. I'm JUST STARTING OUT...lay off.
ccpickre, ziggy, and pupator, thanks for your help and kind words.
I wonder if this thread would have been any different if the OP had taken the time to read some of the responses - instead of running right out within 12 hours and sending his money off for the deal of a lifetime?
You guys might sense that this is one of my pet peeves... probably. But how many of you post your raw files on a public website that is available to your clients?
I have taken the time to read all of the responses...I had ordered it before joining dgrin, and joined dgrin when I had second thoughts before it arrived. You would have known that if you had read the earlier responses.
As I have said before, I am starting out...I have no clients yet other than who I assist...all pics on my site are from my personal portfolio...and they are all watermarked and right-click protected, they are also not raw files....(although I did forget to turn off one gallery for Original size at one point).are you taking 72 dpi screen captures or something? And I apologize if that was just a general rhetorical question...and not directed at me.
Software isn't a tangible item that you can buy. I know of NO software manufacturer that SELLS its product. They LICENSE their product. They license use rights and they have the ability to specify how the software should be used. Kind of the same thing that we do.
Thank you for your very clear explanation. This is one of my hot buttons too. I work in the software industry, and seeing people using (essentially) stolen software really bothers me.
I can't tell you the number of people I've spoken to who think there is nothing wrong with taking a copy of software that is licensed for their work computer and using it on their home computers. Somehow Photoshop often seems to fall in this category. (Yes, there are or were some products where the license allowed that in the past - not sure if that is still true - but then the people continue to use the software after they leave the company that actually owned the license.)
Thank you for your very clear explanation. This is one of my hot buttons too. I work in the software industry, and seeing people using (essentially) stolen software really bothers me.
I can't tell you the number of people I've spoken to who think there is nothing wrong with taking a copy of software that is licensed for their work computer and using it on their home computers. Somehow Photoshop often seems to fall in this category. (Yes, there are or were some products where the license allowed that in the past - not sure if that is still true - but then the people continue to use the software after they leave the company that actually owned the license.)
--- Denise
I just want to make it understood that I will not be using this fraudulent program...I believe stealing is wrong, and I honestly thought I was buying a legitimate product, however ignorant of me it was to think so. Lesson learned.
I just want to make it understood that I will not be using this fraudulent program...I believe stealing is wrong, and I honestly thought I was buying a legitimate product, however ignorant of me it was to think so. Lesson learned.
I wonder if you could get any relief/help from Adobe by reporting to them what you did and what you got and, maybe, offering to send to them the disk you received. I don't know, but they might be interested.
I also think you might get some traction contacting your CC company or bank (which ever) as suggested above and contesting the charge - you didn't receive what you thought you were buying.
Just a couple of thought and probably worth what you paid to read them.
I just want to make it understood that I will not be using this fraudulent program...I believe stealing is wrong, and I honestly thought I was buying a legitimate product, however ignorant of me it was to think so. Lesson learned.
I'm sorry. My comment wasn't targeted at you; you purchased a product, even though you did not get what you purchased. I was simply making a statement about individuals who take copies of products that were licensed by others.
I usually avoid hijacking a thread, but this one seems to have a life of its own anyway, so I'll digress a teeny bit. With respect to licensing of software, and what rights the purchaser of said rights obtains, would y'all say it would be OK for me to do the following:
I have a copy of Elements 4.0 which I bought, installed, registered and used. I later upgraded to CS3, and uninstalled Elements. Obviosly Elements 4.0 is old stuff anyway. I'm selling a Nikon D70, and I intend to hand over my copy of Elements 4.0 if the purchaser wants it. I'm not pricing it separately, but it adds perceived value to the deal. Any problem widdat?
John :
Natural selection is responsible for every living thing that exists.
D3s, D500, D5300, and way more glass than the wife knows about.
I wonder if you could get any relief/help from Adobe by reporting to them what you did and what you got and, maybe, offering to send to them the disk you received. I don't know, but they might be interested.
I also think you might get some traction contacting your CC company or bank (which ever) as suggested above and contesting the charge - you didn't receive what you thought you were buying.
Just a couple of thought and probably worth what you paid to read them.
Great ideas, thank you...I hope they will be interested...they would have more power than I to shut down a fraudulent operation such as this.
I don't have the time at work right now to write much more...but I am not booked next week, and will have the time then to contact Adobe, my cc company, etc..and post how the process goes. Thanks again.
I'm sorry. My comment wasn't targeted at you; you purchased a product, even though you did not get what you purchased. I was simply making a statement about individuals who take copies of products that were licensed by others.
You clearly didn't do anything wrong.
--- Denise
Thanks Denise...I didn't think it was...I was just putting it out there for the people that browse this thread...just making sure everybody knew...and your quote made the most sense to hit reply to. I'll get to the bottom of everything next week and keep posting on this thread...
I usually avoid hijacking a thread, but this one seems to have a life of its own anyway, so I'll digress a teeny bit. With respect to licensing of software, and what rights the purchaser of said rights obtains, would y'all say it would be OK for me to do the following:
I have a copy of Elements 4.0 which I bought, installed, registered and used. I later upgraded to CS3, and uninstalled Elements. Obviosly Elements 4.0 is old stuff anyway. I'm selling a Nikon D70, and I intend to hand over my copy of Elements 4.0 if the purchaser wants it. I'm not pricing it separately, but it adds perceived value to the deal. Any problem widdat?
I will recommend you follow the license adobe gave you - if you used the old software to get a discount upgrade, the license probably specifies that you don't get to sell the license of one without the other.
Since this got so off-track in so many places, I'll just re-iterate:
DO NOT BOTHER CONTACTING ADOBE!!!!!
If the website will not comply with their 100% money back promise immediatey, and I mean immediately, call your CC company and issue a chargeback. You now have two reasons for the chargeback: 1) Selling illegal software that is advertised as leagal 2) refusing to honor a money back promise on their website.
You don't need to bring anyone else into this. You, the company selling the software, and your credit card company - that's all.
I will recommend you follow the license adobe gave you - if you used the old software to get a discount upgrade, the license probably specifies that you don't get to sell the license of one without the other.
Good point, and thanks for the insight.
Actually though, I didn't do an upgrade (bad choice of words in my post :bash ). After I bought Lightroom for $300, I got an e-mail from Adobe offering CS3 for a good discount, which I accepted. So I think my PSE4 license is still "virgin."
John :
Natural selection is responsible for every living thing that exists.
D3s, D500, D5300, and way more glass than the wife knows about.
OK...I finally received a reply from CSA, and they said:
"you must return the disk ans well as send screenshots to prove the program has been removed from your computer, refunds are processed on wednesdays"
I'm planning on just doing a chargeback and not complying with them...they're probably just trying to save their own a**...but should I try to get my money back from CSA first, before going to the bank on Mon?
Pupator, you're right...I'm not going to bring Adobe into this.
OK...I finally received a reply from CSA, and they said:
"you must return the disk ans well as send screenshots to prove the program has been removed from your computer, refunds are processed on wednesdays"
I'm planning on just doing a chargeback and not complying with them...they're probably just trying to save their own a**...but should I try to get my money back from CSA first, before going to the bank on Mon?
Pupator, you're right...I'm not going to bring Adobe into this.
These guys are slimeballs and if they send you a refund at all, they will probably discount some bogus "service" or "restocking" fee. You have nothing to lose by just dealing with your bank.
Ok, so I've been to the bank, got a "notice of disputed transaction" form, and have it ready for when they need it again. But, in order for the form to be valid, I have to find out if CSA are not compliant with the money back guarantee. So I have had more contact w/ csa, sent them their disks back express (2-3day), because they only handle refunds on wednesdays. If their product arrives back to them in time, I should have my refund on wed...otherwise, I won't know until next wed. If by then they have not complied, I will dispute it. From email contact w/ csa, they have said they handle 2 refunds a week on average, and they assured me I will get my money back...they never disputed my calling their software illegal however...my reason for the refund. I won't know more until then.
Oh, and I have not had any other unknown purchases on the card used, in case anyone's wondering.
This is the correct course of action. IF they are willing to comply with their money-back promise - you must allow them to honor it before attempting a charge-back.
Also though, this proves how phony they are. How many legit vendors will allow you to return opened software? None.
And taking a screenshot that it's uninstalled? How rediculous is that? If you wanted to just make copies of the discs before you sent them back how would they know? I imagine the screenshot is something they use to try and intimidate people from attempting the return process?
And sorry I didn't respond to your e-mail in time - glad to see you've taken the right actions though!
I imagine the screenshot is something they use to try and intimidate people from attempting the return process?
Ok, all....just wanted to let you know that today I did receive my money back from CSA, even w/o sending screenshots, and have not had any other charges to the card. I feel I'm lucky, and I've learned a lesson here. Thank you all for your input and help.
Ok, all....just wanted to let you know that today I did receive my money back from CSA, even w/o sending screenshots, and have not had any other charges to the card. I feel I'm lucky, and I've learned a lesson here. Thank you all for your input and help.
I would recommend against this site. The domain has only been active since Feb 26 of this year (2008) and the domain is registered to a "Jaime Snyder" who lists their e-mail as "jaiwhe2001@yahoo.com".
I'm sorry but any business that uses a yahoo e-mail account for primary contact is probably not legit.
Most of the advertising this person is doing is on CraigsList postings and a search in Google against the phrase "jaiwhe2001" shows this dude doing a lot of scouting for people to post on the CraigsList:
Just to let you know that there ARE Adobe deals that appear "too good to be true" but are actually true.
The University of Washington bookstore price for Adobe Design Standard is $200 (includes PS CS3, Illustrator, InDesign, and Acrobat Pro). Here's the link to the PDF.
The catch: You have to be a University of Washington students, faculty or staff (me).
The point: There are crazy good legit deals on Adobe software, they just tend to go to acadmeic instutions.
Just to let you know that there ARE Adobe deals that appear "too good to be true" but are actually true.
The University of Washington bookstore price for Adobe Design Standard is $200 (includes PS CS3, Illustrator, InDesign, and Acrobat Pro). Here's the link to the PDF.
The catch: You have to be a University of Washington students, faculty or staff (me).
The point: There are crazy good legit deals on Adobe software, they just tend to go to acadmeic instutions.
Yep, it's the academic pricing, I got mine at academic superstore... and my favorite part about it is that adobe lets you use the academic versions for commercial use, and you can use it to get upgrade pricing later on!
Yes, but when an online retailer beats student pricing, it's a safe bet that it's not legit.
As to the Delaware number in California, with cell phones as they are, it's not an uncommon occurence. I had an Indiana number while living in Florida, and that was even with a new contract. I just kept my Indiana number because I didn't want to have to change it and tell everyone I know about a new number.
Comments
I'm not sure it is a semantic discussion, but it's clear that not everybody figured out the power of truth.
I wonder if this thread would have been any different if the OP had taken the time to read some of the responses - instead of running right out within 12 hours and sending his money off for the deal of a lifetime?
You guys might sense that this is one of my pet peeves... probably. But how many of you post your raw files on a public website that is available to your clients?
danbrew,
ccpickre, ziggy, and pupator, thanks for your help and kind words.
-Thanks again everyone:D
-DK
www.dank-photo.com
www.dank-photo.blogspot.com
I have taken the time to read all of the responses...I had ordered it before joining dgrin, and joined dgrin when I had second thoughts before it arrived. You would have known that if you had read the earlier responses.
As I have said before, I am starting out...I have no clients yet other than who I assist...all pics on my site are from my personal portfolio...and they are all watermarked and right-click protected, they are also not raw files....(although I did forget to turn off one gallery for Original size at one point).are you taking 72 dpi screen captures or something? And I apologize if that was just a general rhetorical question...and not directed at me.
www.dank-photo.blogspot.com
I could be wrong though.
I can't tell you the number of people I've spoken to who think there is nothing wrong with taking a copy of software that is licensed for their work computer and using it on their home computers. Somehow Photoshop often seems to fall in this category. (Yes, there are or were some products where the license allowed that in the past - not sure if that is still true - but then the people continue to use the software after they leave the company that actually owned the license.)
--- Denise
Musings & ramblings at https://denisegoldberg.blogspot.com
Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
I apologize ziggy, and everybody viewing/contributing to this thread...I just felt I had to defend myself...I hope I didn't step on too many toes.
-DK
www.dank-photo.blogspot.com
I just want to make it understood that I will not be using this fraudulent program...I believe stealing is wrong, and I honestly thought I was buying a legitimate product, however ignorant of me it was to think so. Lesson learned.
www.dank-photo.blogspot.com
I also think you might get some traction contacting your CC company or bank (which ever) as suggested above and contesting the charge - you didn't receive what you thought you were buying.
Just a couple of thought and probably worth what you paid to read them.
My Photos
Thoughts on photographing a wedding, How to post a picture, AF Microadjustments?, Light Scoop
Equipment List - Check my profile
You clearly didn't do anything wrong.
--- Denise
Musings & ramblings at https://denisegoldberg.blogspot.com
I have a copy of Elements 4.0 which I bought, installed, registered and used. I later upgraded to CS3, and uninstalled Elements. Obviosly Elements 4.0 is old stuff anyway. I'm selling a Nikon D70, and I intend to hand over my copy of Elements 4.0 if the purchaser wants it. I'm not pricing it separately, but it adds perceived value to the deal. Any problem widdat?
Natural selection is responsible for every living thing that exists.
D3s, D500, D5300, and way more glass than the wife knows about.
Great ideas, thank you...I hope they will be interested...they would have more power than I to shut down a fraudulent operation such as this.
I don't have the time at work right now to write much more...but I am not booked next week, and will have the time then to contact Adobe, my cc company, etc..and post how the process goes. Thanks again.
-DK
www.dank-photo.blogspot.com
Thanks Denise...I didn't think it was...I was just putting it out there for the people that browse this thread...just making sure everybody knew...and your quote made the most sense to hit reply to. I'll get to the bottom of everything next week and keep posting on this thread...
-DK
www.dank-photo.blogspot.com
I will recommend you follow the license adobe gave you - if you used the old software to get a discount upgrade, the license probably specifies that you don't get to sell the license of one without the other.
DO NOT BOTHER CONTACTING ADOBE!!!!!
If the website will not comply with their 100% money back promise immediatey, and I mean immediately, call your CC company and issue a chargeback. You now have two reasons for the chargeback: 1) Selling illegal software that is advertised as leagal 2) refusing to honor a money back promise on their website.
You don't need to bring anyone else into this. You, the company selling the software, and your credit card company - that's all.
Good point, and thanks for the insight.
Actually though, I didn't do an upgrade (bad choice of words in my post :bash ). After I bought Lightroom for $300, I got an e-mail from Adobe offering CS3 for a good discount, which I accepted. So I think my PSE4 license is still "virgin."
Natural selection is responsible for every living thing that exists.
D3s, D500, D5300, and way more glass than the wife knows about.
"you must return the disk ans well as send screenshots to prove the program has been removed from your computer, refunds are processed on wednesdays"
I'm planning on just doing a chargeback and not complying with them...they're probably just trying to save their own a**...but should I try to get my money back from CSA first, before going to the bank on Mon?
Pupator, you're right...I'm not going to bring Adobe into this.
-DK
www.dank-photo.com
www.dank-photo.blogspot.com
These guys are slimeballs and if they send you a refund at all, they will probably discount some bogus "service" or "restocking" fee. You have nothing to lose by just dealing with your bank.
Oh, and I have not had any other unknown purchases on the card used, in case anyone's wondering.
-DK
www.dank-photo.com
www.dank-photo.blogspot.com
A thief with morals? Sounds like a modern day Robin Hood
Also though, this proves how phony they are. How many legit vendors will allow you to return opened software? None.
And taking a screenshot that it's uninstalled? How rediculous is that? If you wanted to just make copies of the discs before you sent them back how would they know? I imagine the screenshot is something they use to try and intimidate people from attempting the return process?
And sorry I didn't respond to your e-mail in time - glad to see you've taken the right actions though!
Ok, all....just wanted to let you know that today I did receive my money back from CSA, even w/o sending screenshots, and have not had any other charges to the card. I feel I'm lucky, and I've learned a lesson here. Thank you all for your input and help.
-DK
www.dank-photo.com
www.dank-photo.blogspot.com
www.ivarborst.nl & smugmug
and a whois gives more interesting information...
PO Box 927010
San Diego CA 92192-7010
United States
Phone: 1 (858) 731-1701
While the number he gives on the site is a cell phone in newcastle, DE
Honestly, I'd bet that any one of the companies whose products are being sold, would like to hear about that site...
The University of Washington bookstore price for Adobe Design Standard is $200 (includes PS CS3, Illustrator, InDesign, and Acrobat Pro).
Here's the link to the PDF.
The catch: You have to be a University of Washington students, faculty or staff (me).
The point: There are crazy good legit deals on Adobe software, they just tend to go to acadmeic instutions.
initialphotography.smugmug.com
"The camera is an instrument that teaches people how to see without a camera" - Dorothea Lange
Yep, it's the academic pricing, I got mine at academic superstore... and my favorite part about it is that adobe lets you use the academic versions for commercial use, and you can use it to get upgrade pricing later on!
As to the Delaware number in California, with cell phones as they are, it's not an uncommon occurence. I had an Indiana number while living in Florida, and that was even with a new contract. I just kept my Indiana number because I didn't want to have to change it and tell everyone I know about a new number.