My scope of responsibilities... Need Input

DI-Joe · March 30, 2008

At my latest wedding, my client is unusually unhappy with the photos. She’s holding me responsible for things such as the fitment of her dress(meaning, one of the photos she says makes her look “30lbs heavier” while I don't think she knows what 30lbs looks like...), as well as the condition of her hair(she paid someone to do her hair and makeup, but her bangs were unusually unmanageable and somehow that’s my fault.). Are these things really my responsibility? Should I be taking this as personally as I am? I mean, I’m remaining professional and as accommodating as possible with my client but I think she’s really hard on me considering what I delivered and in what amount of time(411 individually touched images in 6 days). Granted in her defense, she made some valid points about poses and direction and such. I’m not as aggressive as I probably should be when it comes to picking poses. And then she had a few other nit picks about some things that I can see where she’s coming from. Things to remember for next time, most definitely.

Has anyone else had experiences like this? This is my first time with an unhappy customer. Granted I haven't been doing this as long as most of you so I need to know if this is par for the course or not and how should I handle these sorts of situations.

Thanks!

chuckinsocal · March 30, 2008

I wouldn't take it personaly.

Unfortuantely, there are people in this world who will take every opportunity to shift blame to who ever happens to be standing near by at the moment. In this case, you happened to be holding the camera so in her mind her hair, make up, dress, face, weight, figure are all gonna be your fault I'm sure she's blamed others for the same things as well.

While a photographer can suggest minor adjustments, he is not a make up artist, hair dresser, dress designer, personal trainer, beauty consultant or anything else along those lines. All you can do is shoot what is presented to you.

I would just write this gal off as being a generally unhappy person, pity her new husband some, and move on to the next happy client.

Just my $.02

Chuck Cannova
www.customrideportraits.com

bham · March 31, 2008

DI-Joe wrote:

At my latest wedding, my client is unusually unhappy with the photos. She’s holding me responsible for things such as the fitment of her dress(meaning, one of the photos she says makes her look “30lbs heavier” while I don't think she knows what 30lbs looks like...), as well as the condition of her hair(she paid someone to do her hair and makeup, but her bangs were unusually unmanageable and somehow that’s my fault.). Are these things really my responsibility? Should I be taking this as personally as I am? I mean, I’m remaining professional and as accommodating as possible with my client but I think she’s really hard on me considering what I delivered and in what amount of time(411 individually touched images in 6 days). Granted in her defense, she made some valid points about poses and direction and such. I’m not as aggressive as I probably should be when it comes to picking poses. And then she had a few other nit picks about some things that I can see where she’s coming from. Things to remember for next time, most definitely.

Has anyone else had experiences like this? This is my first time with an unhappy customer. Granted I haven't been doing this as long as most of you so I need to know if this is par for the course or not and how should I handle these sorts of situations.

Thanks!

You got her 411 retouched images in 6 days. I tell people 3 weeks, I usually have stuff done much earlier, but I would rather under promise and over deliver. Plus it allows for random acts of nature and computers.

Some people aren't gonna be happy. Sorry to hear that. She may have valid points but not much you can do now.

For future you may want to have a list of shots/poses you will do and if they want additional ones to have them listed. Then you gave them the opportunity to request others and if they didn't they can only blame themselves.

Her looking 30lbs heavier isn't your fault. If she said before the ceremony that she was concerned about her looking fat and wanted to be shot from only certain anlges and you didn't then she might have a valid point. If she never pointed out this, then she doesn't.

You can only capture what was there. Maybe some creative cropping could eliminate her 30lbs (if its in her face, I don't think you are gonna have much luck).

Robinivich · March 31, 2008

As someone in the unfortunate predicament of working in customer service all day long, I can say that it is not unusual for people to shift responsibility onto the nearest target...

Don't take it personally, just acknowledge, understand, and try to work with what you have. The wedding is over, you have just the images that were taken, do your best with what you have to please her. You already knew that part, I'm sure. Just remember a few things, NEVER argue a point (the customer really IS always right), if you do she'll probably seize the opportunity to explode in your face. Also, again something you knew, try not to take it personally, after spending some time with her, make sure to vent (to this forum!) it's amazing how satisfying it is to get a few of the unreasonable quirks off your chest, and it will help you feel a lot more at ease the next time you might be speaking with her.

I'd stay away from arguing quality of service points, like the 411 images in 6 days, save that for the venting! If you mention this to her, she'll take the opportunity to point out any actual problems with the services rendered (and she'll cherry pick the very worst, and start getting more angry)

In this situation, she's the only one who defines what reasonable and unreasonable are, just be (or appear to be) understanding, repeat her complaints back to her to show you're listening, and again, offer whatever help you can. If she asks for the impossible, just try and explain why that is impossible (carefully, don't be indignant, carefully explain your position and regret not being able to help).

It gets more tricky if she wants money back or starts making concrete demands, then it's more of a judgement call. You should position yourself carefully on the costs to yourself of doing the wedding. You'll need to evaluate how much damage a psychotic bride can do to your business model, and how much her word of mouth matters to you, because it's always possible it'll come down to dollars and cents.

Bottom Line? I think you've probably already performed fine customer service, you heard what was wrong, and you came here to vent afterwards! You'll get people whose expectations are so high above anything attainable that you'll never please. Be happy for the business, and once they're on their way have a good laugh! Remember, most bad customers are at least a little crazy, and if the whole time you're dealing with them, you have that and a chuckle in the back of your mind, you'll have a way better time of it!!

SloYerRoll · March 31, 2008

My opinions don't mean much since I haven't seen any pictures.

What do YOU think about the shots you took? Were they up to your standard? Is this the same standard as the portfolio images that the bride looked at and decided to choose you?

If they are, just count your losses, say a little prayer for the husband since he has a bumpy ride ahead and move on.

Bill Cosby once said, "I don't know what the key to success is. But I know the key to failure is trying to please everybody."

gus · March 31, 2008

DI-Joe wrote:

At my latest wedding, my client is unusually unhappy with the photos. She’s holding me responsible for things such as the fitment of her dress(meaning, one of the photos she says makes her look “30lbs heavier” while I don't think she knows what 30lbs looks like...), as well as the condition of her hair(she paid someone to do her hair and makeup, but her bangs were unusually unmanageable and somehow that’s my fault.). Are these things really my responsibility? Should I be taking this as personally as I am? I mean, I’m remaining professional and as accommodating as possible with my client but I think she’s really hard on me considering what I delivered and in what amount of time(411 individually touched images in 6 days). Granted in her defense, she made some valid points about poses and direction and such. I’m not as aggressive as I probably should be when it comes to picking poses. And then she had a few other nit picks about some things that I can see where she’s coming from. Things to remember for next time, most definitely.

Has anyone else had experiences like this? This is my first time with an unhappy customer. Granted I haven't been doing this as long as most of you so I need to know if this is par for the course or not and how should I handle these sorts of situations.

Thanks!

Your photos could be total rubbish & she is right ...or they could just as easily be of amazing quality & she is a horses arse. We dont know.

You are in a game where you will cop flack from people.. its a highly emotional day & you need to learn to deal with this emotion or it will deal with you.

DI-Joe · March 31, 2008

Thanks to all for your kind and insightful words. Here is an example of the work that I've already posted on here.

http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=88513

Sam · March 31, 2008

In order to get any meaningful advice I think you need to post the actual photos, not just general photos of your work. Also note the specifics she complained about, that you agreed with, as well as the ones you don't agree with.

That way you can get some real opinions with regard to both the technical, and artistic merits of the photos along with thoughts on the overall wedding, and whatever business advice seems appropriate.

Sam

DI-Joe · March 31, 2008

Sam wrote:

In order to get any meaningful advice I think you need to post the actual photos, not just general photos of your work. Also note the specifics she complained about, that you agreed with, as well as the ones you don't agree with.

That way you can get some real opinions with regard to both the technical, and artistic merits of the photos along with thoughts on the overall wedding, and whatever business advice seems appropriate.

Sam

Those are the photos and the client in question.

jonh68 · March 31, 2008

From the looks of those pictures, I think you did a fine job. I think this is a case she is upset because the pictures look like her, and not a runway model.

SloYerRoll · March 31, 2008

Count your losses and move on. She's a waste of your time. If your happy w/ the shots, who cares what she thinks? After all, she's probably has high maintenance friends that would act the same way.

bham · March 31, 2008

Those photos are great. I really have a hard time believing she has much valid points.

A couple things. First photo, I didn't notice the guys eyes open, and it doesn't change much. You might could smooth out the horizontal line in her neck.

Second photo maybe crop of more of her arm. Many women I shoot regularly always try to keep there arms hidden because of how they think they look fat in the bicep area.

Third photo again maybe smooth out those lines in her neck.

You did some really nice work. Some people have gotten so used to complaining at all stores until the manager caves to get rid of them. When AT&T dropped thousands of customers for becoming to big of a hassle, I applauded them for having the kahunas to cut off problem customers. Only you can get a read on her and if she is reasonable or unreasonable.

I had a customer purchase prints thru smugmug and wasn't satisfied and didn't want a reprint. She claimed the photos were to dark. I got smugmug to send me a copy of the prints as I had them with Auto (just like the customer had) and then Andy tweaked them with I2e and had printed. When I got them and compared, a slight difference, but not close to enough to warrant a refund, by any reasonable person. But because smugmugs guarantee is your guarantee, the customer got free prints and I lost the money from the sale.

You could always go to the extreme (a really, really, really last resort) and tell her she gets a full refund, but you destroy all the photos, files, etc. I doubt she would go for that.

evoryware · April 1, 2008

I looked through the wedding pics on your site through her images and I'd say convince her that she looks great in the pictures!
Her MUA should have been there throughout to touch her up like I've seen at other weddings. I guess add to your contract you are not responsible for hair, makeup, and dress size problems.

Only issue is her chin is large, particularly in the first one.
If her head was tilted down slightly or you were at a higher angle, it would not be as prominent. The dress also looks much better without the draping on her shoulders.

Scott_Quier · April 1, 2008

Last night, I just dealt with my first "unhappy" client. She was so emotional about the entire thing that she had to have her son-in-law call me (the B&G were retired and this was the second wedding for each) and try to explain the issues and to arrange a meeting to discuss the issues face-to-face. This is what I understood him to be telling me:

Some photos were dark and you couldn't see the faces
The people in some of the photos looks short and squat/heavy
I took some photos of people were not guests and/or in the wedding party - didn't know who they were
Some photos were blurry

By the time the meeting was over it turns out that there were only two issues:

I didn't deliver shots of the guests sitting at the reception tables.
The photo CD was organized into folders, based on the event being covered (portraits, Reception, Wedding) and when they inserted the CD into their computer and they spun up a "slide show" application it started with photos from the reception rather than with photos from the wedding - i.e., the photos were not being displayed in chronological order.

To turn these unsatisfied clients in happy clients, I promised:

To back through the unprocessed photos to see if I got any group shots (I'm sure I did, there just wasn't anything in them to recommend them so they didn't make the first cut).
To burn another copy of the photo CD with all the photos in a single directory. The photo files are named based on the time of day they were taken, so they will automagically be displayed in near chronological order (there were three cameras on the job and the clocks were not EXACTLY synchronized - but close).

For an 1.5 hours I let them rant and rave at me and I threatened to leave when it got too much out of hand - the quieted them down a notch or two. The groom event attempted to threaten/extort me with threats of legal action. I responded with something like, "Sure, you have that right - be my guest," and turned back to answer a question from the bride. That was that last reference made to legal action:D. In time we got to the root causes of their unhappiness and, by the time I left, they were asking about wedding albums (my business is all ala carte). We actually set up an appointment to talk about them in more detail.

I had to take some time to explain the artistic merits of some of the shots, and to, very gently, inform her that "Yes, you do look like that - people see what they want to see while the camera sees what's actually there."

My situation is not exactly the same as yours, but I think there is enough common ground that it may be helpful. Talk to them. Work with them. Do what you can to make them happy. I was able to convert an unhappy client into one that said she wants to spend more money with me. We'll just have to wait and see on that one.

And, with your next client, make sure your contract covers this stuff (I know that my contract is going to undergo some surgery because of this experience. And remember, a contract is (should be), among other things, a tool to facilitate communication and reduce ambiguities.

:soapboxBottom line - wedding photography is about people and dealing with them when they are not (usually) at their most emotionally stable. If we are able to make allowances for that and can get them to talk about issues and can do little, low cost things, to smooth the waters, I believe we will greatly improve our individual (and collective) position and "job satisfaction."

BTW - I looked at the photos you posted in the referenced thread - Nice work! I don't think she has anything to complain about, but she is/was a bride.

gus · April 1, 2008

Scott_Quier wrote:

:soapboxBottom line - wedding photography is about people and dealing with them when they are not (usually) at their most emotionally stable.

You put it well mate...its also the exact reason i would never do it. My reply would have been..."rack off & ring life-line... apparently they care"

I really dont know how or why one can do weddings...hats off to you that can.

BTW to the OP...your photos looks quite good to me if thats worth anything to you.

Scott_Quier · April 1, 2008

gus wrote:

You put it well mate...its also the exact reason i would never do it. My reply would have been..."rack off & ring life-line... apparently they care"

I really dont know how or why one can do weddings...hats off to you that can.

Thanks for the comps.

For me, doing weddings is about "And they lived happily ever after" (though they sometimes don't - I've had one couple get divorced about 6 months after the wedding), and "Riding off into the sunset" - that sort of thing.

This is me at an RA meeting (Romantics Anonymous) - "Hello everyone. I'm an incurable romantic." One time last year I had problems getting a shot at a reception - tears in my eyes - makes it hard to compose the shot

.

gus · April 1, 2008

Scott_Quier wrote:

This is me at an RA meeting (Romantics Anonymous) - "Hello everyone. I'm an incurable romantic." One time last year I had problems getting a shot at a reception - tears in my eyes - makes it hard to compose the shot .

For me with club level sports, generally the competitors walk up to you after any race any where & ask "did you get a photo of me ? ..can i see it ?" I dont care about the money i never earn but they are always excited to see the photo. Thats my buzz.

DI-Joe · April 1, 2008

I just wanted to take a moment and thank all of you for your supportive and informative words in addition to the compliments on my work. You've all helped me feel a lot better about the situation. I can't thank you all enough for your support.

My plan is to kill her with kindness. I've offered her free bundle of thank you cards which does two things for me. One, she gets something for free and think's she's making out and two, I get to put my photos in the hands of friends and family. Tada! Free advertising for me.

Again, thank you all for your kind words I am humbled by your show of support.

-Joe

Scott_Quier · April 1, 2008

DI-Joe wrote:

I just wanted to take a moment and thank all of you for your supportive and informative words in addition to the compliments on my work. You've all helped me feel a lot better about the situation. I can't thank you all enough for your support.

My plan is to kill her with kindness. I've offered her free bundle of thank you cards which does two things for me. One, she gets something for free and think's she's making out and two, I get to put my photos in the hands of friends and family. Tada! Free advertising for me.

Again, thank you all for your kind words I am humbled by your show of support.

-Joe

That's the way to look at it. Take the high road and you'll be rewarded - maybe you'll just feel better about yourself, but sometimes you'll actually reap tangible rewards.

Sam · April 1, 2008

Scott!

Your a saint. Excellent advice, and while this approach may not always be viable, when it is, it can work miracles.

Good job.

Di-Joe,

Sorry, I didn't understand that those were the photos. I took a second look at these as well as your web site, and over all I think the photos are very nice, and certainly acceptable wedding work.

One think about photos, and critique is that some people, and especially photographers will focus in on what's wrong with a photo rather than the over all look, or impact it generates.

I think some fault can be seen in every photo, painting, or other art on the planet, but that's not the point. The real point here is did you capture the day in a way that generates good feelings, and I think you did.

One thing I noticed on my monitor was that the skin tones on a number of your color images seem to have too much red, magenta in them.

Other wise the over all images look good.

You win some, and you lose some, but I would recommend you continue to shoot weddings.

Sam

SloYerRoll · April 1, 2008

gus wrote:

My reply would have been..."rack off & ring life-line... apparently they care"

rofl

DI-Joe · April 14, 2008

Well yesterday I had a meeting with the couple to make the final product delivery, it didn't go well at all. I got talked down to by the lady while her husband just sort of stood there. Talked down to about my photography by someone who's never picked up a camera and thinks Photoshop is an option between XP and Vista. I bit my tongue up to the point where I kindly told the couple that our contract obligations were now fulfilled and anything beyond this can be at their leisure. I said it with the tone as to say, "I'm done with you, I don't give a damn what you do." Definitely have been my worst customers ever and unless they're buying something big and expensive from me I may even elect to turn down their business from here on.

The real tricky part is that it was a common friend of ours that paid for their wedding package.. They didn't want a photographer in the first place, but figured what the hell, it's free, right? For someone who didn't want a photog in the first place and for someone who didn't have to pay this lady sure has a strong opinion.

For future reference and photos who are just starting out in wedding photography:

Brides: pl, bride; noun; usually young, single women, about to be betrothed. Generally pleasant, good natured, but under undue amounts of external stressors.

Bridezillas: pl; noun; mutation of bride; young women who were recently betrothed, and should have remained stranded on Atlantis, never to resurface and haunt photographers, caterers, and anyone else employed in a service trade specific to weddings. Known to maul, bark, scratch, spit and bite anyone who dares to oppose them or their skewed views [of anything earthly]. NB: current CDC recommendations are to update all world vaccinations before contact with these women.

Scott_Quier · April 14, 2008

The cause finally comes to light...

DI-Joe wrote:

The real tricky part is that it was a common friend of ours that paid for their wedding package.. They didn't want a photographer in the first place, but figured what the hell, it's free, right? For someone who didn't want a photog in the first place and for someone who didn't have to pay this lady sure has a strong opinion.

Here's the problem - they didn't value you or your work. Maybe they/she doesn't even know what was paid for the work. If she had actually paid for the work, she may have better valued your opinion.

evoryware · April 14, 2008

If I may ask, talked down to how?

DI-Joe wrote:

The real tricky part is that it was a common friend of ours that paid for their wedding package.. They didn't want a photographer in the first place, but figured what the hell, it's free, right? For someone who didn't want a photog in the first place and for someone who didn't have to pay this lady sure has a strong opinion.

What did the person that paid for the package think?

DI-Joe · April 14, 2008

evoryware wrote:

If I may ask, talked down to how?

What did the person that paid for the package think?

Well firstly, she continued to blame me for the appearance of her hair and dress... again not my problem. Then told me I wasn't posing them like I should... I then reminded them that they didn't pose themselves. They didn't just fall into those poses.... She said I wasn't mean enough, that people aren't supposed to like Wedding Photographers or some such. Then she told me that I wasn't ready to do weddings that I should be someone's apprentice. I then reminded them that this, in fact, was not my first wedding.

I've heard other comments about my work from our common friend things like, the pictures were too "artsy fartsy" and that wedding photos should be just "plain jane". She saw my previous work, which is more of the same, so if that wasn't what she was looking for she should have moved on. There was another photog at the event there as a guest with some old nikon out blasting people in the face with some rinkydink flash. I saw his set and his flash only fired about 40% of the time, and the shots are all high key and overblown and for some reason, the bride LOVES his shots...

The person who paid for the package thinks it's some of my best work and she absolutely loves it. She felt I did the couple justice and my style is very fitting to the occasion. She doesn't see any of the issues that the bride sees. She has some issues now with being caught in the middle of all of this because she's both our friends. So generally, I don't vent to her about this. She feels bad about the whole thing, and about the trouble I've gone through. She thinks the comments of the bride were downright insulting to me and my work.

So yeah... I'm glad it's over with.

Moogle Pepper · April 14, 2008

DI-Joe wrote:

Well yesterday I had a meeting with the couple to make the final product delivery, it didn't go well at all. I got talked down to by the lady while her husband just sort of stood there. Talked down to about my photography by someone who's never picked up a camera and thinks Photoshop is an option between XP and Vista. I bit my tongue up to the point where I kindly told the couple that our contract obligations were now fulfilled and anything beyond this can be at their leisure. I said it with the tone as to say, "I'm done with you, I don't give a damn what you do." Definitely have been my worst customers ever and unless they're buying something big and expensive from me I may even elect to turn down their business from here on.

The real tricky part is that it was a common friend of ours that paid for their wedding package.. They didn't want a photographer in the first place, but figured what the hell, it's free, right? For someone who didn't want a photog in the first place and for someone who didn't have to pay this lady sure has a strong opinion.

For future reference and photos who are just starting out in wedding photography:

Brides: pl, bride; noun; usually young, single women, about to be betrothed. Generally pleasant, good natured, but under undue amounts of external stressors.

Bridezillas: pl; noun; mutation of bride; young women who were recently betrothed, and should have remained stranded on Atlantis, never to resurface and haunt photographers, caterers, and anyone else employed in a service trade specific to weddings. Known to maul, bark, scratch, spit and bite anyone who dares to oppose them or their skewed views [of anything earthly]. NB: current CDC recommendations are to update all world vaccinations before contact with these women.

That was really rude of them!

Wow! I thought those photos were good.. maybe the bride needs glasses?

I've heard other comments about my work from our common friend things like, the pictures were too "artsy fartsy" and that wedding photos should be just "plain jane". She saw my previous work, which is more of the same, so if that wasn't what she was looking for she should have moved on. There was another photog at the event there as a guest with some old nikon out blasting people in the face with some rinkydink flash. I saw his set and his flash only fired about 40% of the time, and the shots are all high key and overblown and for some reason, the bride LOVES his shots...

And she didn't mention what kind of photos she liked from the get go? I guess she was assuming that you would pump out those shots the guest made.

schmoo · April 14, 2008

DI-Joe wrote:

Brides: pl, bride; noun; usually young, single women, about to be betrothed. Generally pleasant, good natured, but under undue amounts of external stressors.

Bridezillas: pl; noun; mutation of bride; young women who were recently betrothed, and should have remained stranded on Atlantis, never to resurface and haunt photographers, caterers, and anyone else employed in a service trade specific to weddings. Known to maul, bark, scratch, spit and bite anyone who dares to oppose them or their skewed views [of anything earthly]. NB: current CDC recommendations are to update all world vaccinations before contact with these women.

Although I am not a businessperson myself, I think you handled the situation very well and came out of the deal mercifully unscathed. I think your shots were great and it's a shame she was being so pigheaded about it.

She looks great, didn't have to pay and I'm irritated that she has the gall to complain after such a huge freebie. Ah well, good luck to your future ventures and keep up the great work.

chuckinsocal · April 14, 2008

I have to agree ... she didn't want the photos in the first place so they're all bad simply because they exist and it's all your fault for taking them.

Pity the groom.

Chuck Cannova
www.customrideportraits.com

Moogle Pepper · April 14, 2008

She got it for free basically?

Dang... with wedding prices, I would be singing praises for a free wedding shoot, from someone who has been shooting many and good wedding photos.

ChatKat · April 14, 2008

Set expectations before the shoot
One thing I have learned about Wedding Photography is to set the expectations before the event.

For example, one event I shot they decided to light the room by candlelight. Hello? A bit dim to get anything. And would you want a flash going off all night? Even diffused - not possible to get all the light even without changing the ambience. So I now talk about all kinds of things like that and I flat out ask what they are expecting of me. One event they wanted table shots and if I did not ask, they would not be done.

Then I discuss things like Make up. If they're having it done, will they be able to touch up all night? I ask about other clothes - some prints come out with moire...

I think these were lovely but remember that photography is very subjective and we each have our own viewpoint of what we look like and what we expect to look like. We can head off these problems - sometimes. Much of it is about communication.

jonh68 · April 15, 2008

I pity the groom. He will get this kind of behavior if he hasn't already.

My scope of responsibilities... Need Input

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