Absolutely.
For me, I use local self fulfilment mostly because my customers do not wish to use the internet to order, either because of exchange rate or security worries or shipping costs.
When I am selling something more than a 4x6 shot from a soccer game for $2, I would be insisting on using a great printer.....or selling just my shooting service for a good fee and providing the client a cd.
It really shouldn't matter how long it takes as long as the product is worth the wait. Most brides would rather wait for something that will make their jaw drop as opposed to having something ok right away. It's our job to make them see the virtues of waiting for something great as opposed to settling for something good.
Great shots Ann. I had a quick look at your galleries. Just a note, I kept getting a Google API key error message on your site, you may want to look into that.
"They've done studies you know. Sixty-percent of the time, it works every time."
Any experience with print quality, customer service (for print purchasers), communication, etc?
They are specifically event oriented, so it does not appear to be right for portrait/wedding photogs but could really fill a need of mine.
Might supplement smugmug really nicely for me for sports.
Thanks for the info.
For commercial work, SM is not an issue. Those prints (when necessary) are required immediately. For event photography where the clients self-serve on line, I would like to see a dependable 3 day turnaround time. One week from order to delivery, max. A next-day premium service would also be appreciated.
I don't think I have one client that will wait 3 weeks for delivery of a print order. In that amount of time the excitement of the event has dissipated and they are on to other things. If they see prints in 3 days, there's a far greater chance of reorder or up sizing ("nice 4x6, I think I'll order a couple of 5X7s and an 8X10...").
Local currency transactions are a no-brainer. It's the Internet for &^* sake!:smack
Hi Andy. Well, I do hope I'm not appearing too high-handed in type, but I can only say, 'look around'. Almost every international on-line shopping site provides a local currency facility these days. At the very least, they make PayPal easy. In fact, of the several on-line businesses I use, at the moment I can't think of one that refuses to do business in CDN dollars! Only SM.
I realise the local production (local labs) part of the equation is another matter, but local fulfilment really goes hand-in-hand with local currency in a competitive, international, market. Especially in a business-to-business situation. Of course you need the volume to support the effort: It's a chicken/egg thing. But the egg must come first.
That said, there is no comparison to SM specifically. At least not yet. But that's the point! If there was, I'm sure a lot of the pro/semi-pro folks would be moving in that direction. And that, frankly, would be a sad day -- because SM rocks! It really is a class of it's own. But that's why so many of us get so hot about such issues sometimes. We all want to stay with SM for a long list of reasons, but a very short list of business pressures is forcing many of us to look for alternatives.
And, frankly, for at least the year and a half I've been around, those issues don't appear to have been given more than lip service. Coupons, local currency, co-branding and local fulfilment, and stock sales.
Perhaps these resources will all appear at once under separate cover? We can only hope....
But I digress...
The comment you quote was meant to address a much deeper business concern: simply that -- if you are going to carry on an Internet-based, INTERNATIONAL, business-to-business, practice, you simply will not be considered mainstream until you can do seamless, international, fulfilment, and transaction processing.
Looking international while thinking local just doesn't work. And, so far, once one takes the time to get under the skin, SM appears VERY U.S.-centric at the moment.
Yup, but they provide a quick turnaround if you look at their site. Canadians should be automatically upgraded to air service, which would give your estimated time of arrival between 3-5 days (thats pretty fast!)
Shouldn't quality be the most important part of the print though (not meaning to offend here)? If they are just proofs, couldn't they be done at a good local lab in the city and then the final enlargements be send somewhere else?
"They've done studies you know. Sixty-percent of the time, it works every time."
Hi Andy. Well, I do hope I'm not appearing too high-handed in type, but I can only say, 'look around'. Almost every international on-line shopping site
Your post said "Web-based pro-photo service " and I was wondering who you were comparing us to
Any experience with print quality, customer service (for print purchasers), communication, etc?
They are specifically event oriented, so it does not appear to be right for portrait/wedding photogs but could really fill a need of mine.
Might supplement smugmug really nicely for me for sports.
Thanks for the info.
ann
Some - not much. I've posted a few events there, have had 8 purchases from that site. No issues has come out of those, but that's a small sample size.
When I signed up, I did get them to agree to print an image at various size and shipped to me for a reduced price so I could inspect their various print options/sizes/etc
I did suggest they make this readily available to anyone willing to sign up, but I don't see it on their site yet.
When you configure your 'site' with them, the 'event' doesn't have to be sports-related.
A wedding is an event, and you can link right to the event, etc...
Your post said "Web-based pro-photo service " and I was wondering who you were comparing us to
It wasn't meant as a comparison Andy. Just a simple statement that if SM wants to live up to the promise implied in offering a 'pro' service (that is business-to-business versus business-to-consumer), then there is a certain level-of-service expectation. And that if that model is to be extended to the international business-to-business community (to clients outside of the U.S.) then SM should endeavour to provide a level-of-service and pricing model that are at least on par with its domestic market
I re-checked zoomphoto.ca today. You can set up and run galleries (they call them "events") and set your own pricing etc. similarly to what can be done on SmugMug. I haven't used them yet and have no idea about the quality of the prints - but a cursory look makes me want to at least give them a try - they are Canadian, print in Canada and do business in Canadian currency.
Their product offerings are much smaller and the look of the site lacks the class that is evident in SmugMug. i have to say that I really like SmugMug and the support system is AMAZING. But, if my customers want to deal in local currency and want a faster turn-around, I MAY have to look elsewhere.
I re-checked zoomphoto.ca today. You can set up and run galleries (they call them "events") and set your own pricing etc. similarly to what can be done on SmugMug. I haven't used them yet and have no idea about the quality of the prints - but a cursory look makes me want to at least give them a try - they are Canadian, print in Canada and do business in Canadian currency.
Their product offerings are much smaller and the look of the site lacks the class that is evident in SmugMug. i have to say that I really like SmugMug and the support system is AMAZING. But, if my customers want to deal in local currency and want a faster turn-around, I MAY have to look elsewhere.
Hey there Showgirl. Thanks for digging that extra little bit. I just went back and did a bit of digging and I'm quite impressed at what I've seen thus far. (shipping is $3.50, flat rate, U.S. included...hint, hint.) Your report appears bang on the money, though. I get the impression this is something new. Let's hope it pans out. Thanks again for the heads-up!
Just wondering if any Canadian shooters out there are experiencing declining sales due to the significant drop in the Canadian dollar vs. the American?
My print sales for an event that I've shot for the last two years were down by over 30% this year -- despite much greater promotion from me. I think the reason for that is partly because of the exchange rate, and partly because of changes the event organizers made. Still, I've been receiving a trickle of print orders since the event. I've received several complaints from potential customers about having to order from the U.S. before a sale -- but no complaints from anyone who has actually placed an order.
Found this link through www.cameracanada.com -they are local to me, and this is where I go to for most of my local prints. I went through their demo, and thought this might something some of might have interest in
"Orders flow directly to your local, trusted photofinisher." That would be very interesting.
A SmugMug-processed solution with a local (or even Canadian) lab would be perfect for me. For the most part, I'm happy with SmugMug. A few more steps (e.g. a more workable system for Canadians, coupons functionality, etc.) and I'd be very happy with them.
"Orders flow directly to your local, trusted photofinisher." That would be very interesting.
A SmugMug-processed solution with a local (or even Canadian) lab would be perfect for me. For the most part, I'm happy with SmugMug. A few more steps (e.g. a more workable system for Canadians, coupons functionality, etc.) and I'd be very happy with them.[L]
Proof-of-concept at least. These folks appear to be in Boulder, CO. But I wonder about their comment along the lines of 'your local lab uses LifePix...'? Has anyone ever heard of a LifePics-compatible lab in the big white north country? They do mention Office Depot. If you can find a location in Canada (Staples appears to have cleaned their clock in the Toronto area -- only two or three stores and only in the 'burbs.) that might be the place.
FYI: ZoomPhoto says they are adding similar functionality in the next release.
Yep - and when you live and work in the boonies - PARTICULARLY in the Maritimes - service is a huge issue. There aren't a lot of labs here and access can be a problem. Basically we're looking at shipping no matter who is used - but in my case I just want my customers to be able to order and transact their business in Canadian currency with minimal hassles and reasonably quick delivery.
Basically we're looking at shipping no matter who is used - but in my case I just want my customers to be able to order and transact their business in Canadian currency with minimal hassles and reasonably quick delivery.
Agreed. Until I read this thread, I didn't realize that my Canadian customers who order from SmugMug end up waiting so long for their prints to arrive.
Agreed. Until I read this thread, I didn't realize that my Canadian customers who order from SmugMug end up waiting so long for their prints to arrive.
[L]
Not quite sure I understand - put an item in your cart - we're pretty clear about shipping times on the shipping page - is this a surprise that Canada customs can delay things?
Not quite sure I understand - put an item in your cart - we're pretty clear about shipping times on the shipping page - is this a surprise that Canada customs can delay things?
I haven't ordered something from SmugMug for myself since I opened my Pro account about a year and half ago. Since I don't recall what notice appears, I just logged out of my Pro account, added a photo to the cart, and began the checkout process.
I got as far as the step where you need to enter credit card information and didn't see anything about shipping times. The only notice I saw regarding time had to do with the proof delay feature. (See attached.)
Did I miss a notice about shipping times? I'd expect to see that on the same page that lists the shipping options.
Sorry for the confusion. We'll see if we can beef up the info in the cart!
"You'll see Airmail Letter and Airmail Parcel instead of 6-10 Business Day and 3-5 Business Day. These are US Postal Service methods and are handed off to the postal services of whatever countries they go through. These methods typically arrive within 3 weeks.
You'll see International Economy and International Express options, instead of Second or Next Business day. These ship through FedEx and timing varies by country. Please note that packages can get held up at customs, from time to time."
Proof-of-concept at least. These folks appear to be in Boulder, CO. But I wonder about their comment along the lines of 'your local lab uses LifePix...'? Has anyone ever heard of a LifePics-compatible lab in the big white north country? They do mention Office Depot. If you can find a location in Canada (Staples appears to have cleaned their clock in the Toronto area -- only two or three stores and only in the 'burbs.) that might be the place.
FYI: ZoomPhoto says they are adding similar functionality in the next release.
2 locations in London, Ontario... one I happen to walk by twice daily (to and from work)
I recall being given many options as to where to have my prints processed, with the option to pick them up if I wanted.
I never did follow through with setting up an account there. I can still submit stuff for printing, and usually do manage my own sales and delivery locally
I do have a zoomphoto account, and I've use that for a couple weddings where attendees from anywhere can view and order...
Sorry for the confusion. We'll see if we can beef up the info in the cart!
That would most definitely help. I would prefer an approximate time frame under each shipping option, but even a link to the shipping page would also help. And it would be much better to have your cart intelligently show the options that apply to Canada instead of requiring customers to figure out multipliers and whatnot.
... is this a surprise that Canada customs can delay things?
In a sense, Andy, it is a surprise, considering that local fulfilment would solve so many problems: customs, the second carrier, AND international exchange could all be taken out of the equation -- not to mention the extra shipping expenses. And it's only been a problem for... how many years?
If SM's business model is going to insist on cross-boarder shipping, then SM's cross-border clients will always be at a disadvantage. Pretty simple.
But it's even more surprising the General Manager would try to deflect responsibility so off-handedly. You may want to re-think that one. Smacks of an 'if you don't like it, take your business elsewhere' attitude.
Is that, perhaps, SM's official position?
Let's be frank. These problems exist today as a result of SM's continuing failure to address the concerns of its international pro clients. Not Canada Customs! Not Santa Claus! And not the clients.
Interestingly, SM appears to be treating its domestic clients in a similar manner.
When I signed on to a professional level account I fully expected I would be provided professional level (business-to-business) service. Not just a business-to-consumer sharing service painted a slightly brighter colour.
SM did point out at the time that Pro accounts were a new service, but promised, repeatedly, that changes were coming that would address many of our, often cited, concerns. (Even then it was apparent in several threads on DG that some folks were at wits-end waiting for packages and coupons.)
But I was new to the on-line photo business and I loved SM's attitude and promising, fresh approach, so I figured not only could we grow into it together, I might actually lend a small hand a helping it to happen.
But Andy. NOT ONE of the proferred 'Pro" service features has been implemented in the intervening year and a half! No coupons. no packages. no co-branding, no stock...
It really seems as if SM has simply put the pro service out to pasture without letting on.
And now it seems you're trying to tell us it's our border that's greatly decreasing the value of pro accounts to Canadian clients.
Perhaps you'd do better just promising, yet again, that SM is working on it.
In a sense, Andy, it is a surprise, considering that local fulfilment would solve so many problems: customs, the second carrier, AND international exchange could all be taken out of the equation -- not to mention the extra shipping expenses.
No argument here - my question to the other poster wasn't about local fulfillment though.
And it's only been a problem for... how many years?
Problem- if you mean we don't have it, yes. I'll give you that.
If SM's business model is going to insist on cross-boarder shipping, then SM's cross-border clients will always be at a disadvantage. Pretty simple.
But it's even more surprising the General Manager would try to deflect responsibility so off-handedly. You may want to re-think that one. Smacks of an 'if you don't like it, take your business elsewhere' attitude.
I'm so sorry you feel that way! I'm trying to answer your many posts, and others, with acknowledgment. Please don't take things any other way We truly value this input but the simple fact is we can't possibly act on every single request made by our customers - we'd love to!
Is that, perhaps, SM's official position?
Let's be frank. These problems exist today as a result of SM's continuing failure to address the concerns of its international pro clients. Not Canada Customs! Not Santa Claus! And not the clients.
I'm really sorry you feel this way. We ship thousands and thousands of orders cross border. But I can't say that we're gonna have a local lab in Canada anytime soon. I wish I could, Xris, I really do.
Interestingly, SM appears to be treating its domestic clients in a similar manner.
When I signed on to a professional level account I fully expected I would be provided professional level (business-to-business) service. Not just a business-to-consumer sharing service painted a slightly brighter colour.
SM did point out at the time that Pro accounts were a new service, but promised, repeatedly, that changes were coming that would address many of our, often cited, concerns. (Even then it was apparent in several threads on DG that some folks were at wits-end waiting for packages and coupons.)
But I was new to the on-line photo business and I loved SM's attitude and promising, fresh approach, so I figured not only could we grow into it together, I might actually lend a small hand a helping it to happen.
But Andy. NOT ONE of the proferred 'Pro" service features has been implemented in the intervening year and a half! No coupons. no packages. no co-branding, no stock...
It really seems as if SM has simply put the pro service out to pasture without letting on.
And now it seems you're trying to tell us it's our border that's greatly decreasing the value of pro accounts to Canadian clients.
Perhaps you'd do better just promising, yet again, that SM is working on it.
I'm really sorry you feel this way. I have been posting till I'm blue in the face, so has Baldy - maybe you just haven't seen the posts. Coupons are in development. Pro lab - in development. Marketplace - stock - in development. We don't promise dates. But we have serious Sorcery resource on these projects right now. Dunno what else I can tell you Remember, we're a boot-strapped family company - we have 40 employees doing the work of 140 ... we'll get there, we promise! And when we get there, we'll be there, for years and years to come.
Our pros are hugely important to us and we plan on delivering on these items (coupons, a pro lab, stock stuff, and more!), as well as stepping up with even more features.
Just thought I'd update everyone re: shipping. I ordered a largish order on Monday morning, and the difference between USPost and International Economy was only $10. The order shipped today, and FedEx tells me to expect delivery Monday. Spread over my 50 items in the order, that is $10 well spent, when compared to the last shipment that took >14 days to cross the border.
Comments
For me, I use local self fulfilment mostly because my customers do not wish to use the internet to order, either because of exchange rate or security worries or shipping costs.
When I am selling something more than a 4x6 shot from a soccer game for $2, I would be insisting on using a great printer.....or selling just my shooting service for a good fee and providing the client a cd.
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I should have sent this link instead:
http://www.zoomphoto.ca/signupinfo/
Any experience with print quality, customer service (for print purchasers), communication, etc?
They are specifically event oriented, so it does not appear to be right for portrait/wedding photogs but could really fill a need of mine.
Might supplement smugmug really nicely for me for sports.
Thanks for the info.
ann
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I don't think I have one client that will wait 3 weeks for delivery of a print order. In that amount of time the excitement of the event has dissipated and they are on to other things. If they see prints in 3 days, there's a far greater chance of reorder or up sizing ("nice 4x6, I think I'll order a couple of 5X7s and an 8X10...").
Local currency transactions are a no-brainer. It's the Internet for &^* sake!:smack
who are you comparing us to in this regard
Thanks
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I realise the local production (local labs) part of the equation is another matter, but local fulfilment really goes hand-in-hand with local currency in a competitive, international, market. Especially in a business-to-business situation. Of course you need the volume to support the effort: It's a chicken/egg thing. But the egg must come first.
That said, there is no comparison to SM specifically. At least not yet. But that's the point! If there was, I'm sure a lot of the pro/semi-pro folks would be moving in that direction. And that, frankly, would be a sad day -- because SM rocks! It really is a class of it's own. But that's why so many of us get so hot about such issues sometimes. We all want to stay with SM for a long list of reasons, but a very short list of business pressures is forcing many of us to look for alternatives.
And, frankly, for at least the year and a half I've been around, those issues don't appear to have been given more than lip service. Coupons, local currency, co-branding and local fulfilment, and stock sales.
Perhaps these resources will all appear at once under separate cover? We can only hope....
But I digress...
The comment you quote was meant to address a much deeper business concern: simply that -- if you are going to carry on an Internet-based, INTERNATIONAL, business-to-business, practice, you simply will not be considered mainstream until you can do seamless, international, fulfilment, and transaction processing.
Looking international while thinking local just doesn't work. And, so far, once one takes the time to get under the skin, SM appears VERY U.S.-centric at the moment.
I've never used them though, I have seen prints from them and they are nothing short of spectacular.
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Yup, but they provide a quick turnaround if you look at their site. Canadians should be automatically upgraded to air service, which would give your estimated time of arrival between 3-5 days (thats pretty fast!)
Shouldn't quality be the most important part of the print though (not meaning to offend here)? If they are just proofs, couldn't they be done at a good local lab in the city and then the final enlargements be send somewhere else?
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Your post said "Web-based pro-photo service " and I was wondering who you were comparing us to
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Some - not much. I've posted a few events there, have had 8 purchases from that site. No issues has come out of those, but that's a small sample size.
When I signed up, I did get them to agree to print an image at various size and shipped to me for a reduced price so I could inspect their various print options/sizes/etc
I did suggest they make this readily available to anyone willing to sign up, but I don't see it on their site yet.
When you configure your 'site' with them, the 'event' doesn't have to be sports-related.
A wedding is an event, and you can link right to the event, etc...
Their product offerings are much smaller and the look of the site lacks the class that is evident in SmugMug. i have to say that I really like SmugMug and the support system is AMAZING. But, if my customers want to deal in local currency and want a faster turn-around, I MAY have to look elsewhere.
http://www.imagesbyceci.com
http://www.facebook.com/ImagesByCeci
Picadilly, NB, Canada
My print sales for an event that I've shot for the last two years were down by over 30% this year -- despite much greater promotion from me. I think the reason for that is partly because of the exchange rate, and partly because of changes the event organizers made. Still, I've been receiving a trickle of print orders since the event. I've received several complaints from potential customers about having to order from the U.S. before a sale -- but no complaints from anyone who has actually placed an order.
That would be great to see.
[L]
http://www.lifepics.com/marketing/prodemo/
Found this link through www.cameracanada.com -they are local to me, and this is where I go to for most of my local prints. I went through their demo, and thought this might something some of might have interest in
"Orders flow directly to your local, trusted photofinisher." That would be very interesting.
A SmugMug-processed solution with a local (or even Canadian) lab would be perfect for me. For the most part, I'm happy with SmugMug. A few more steps (e.g. a more workable system for Canadians, coupons functionality, etc.) and I'd be very happy with them.
[L]
FYI: ZoomPhoto says they are adding similar functionality in the next release.
http://www.imagesbyceci.com
http://www.facebook.com/ImagesByCeci
Picadilly, NB, Canada
I haven't heard of any local labs that are associated with LifePics. And I don't believe that Office Depots here in Edmonton offer prints of any form.
[L]
Agreed. Until I read this thread, I didn't realize that my Canadian customers who order from SmugMug end up waiting so long for their prints to arrive.
[L]
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I haven't ordered something from SmugMug for myself since I opened my Pro account about a year and half ago. Since I don't recall what notice appears, I just logged out of my Pro account, added a photo to the cart, and began the checkout process.
I got as far as the step where you need to enter credit card information and didn't see anything about shipping times. The only notice I saw regarding time had to do with the proof delay feature. (See attached.)
Did I miss a notice about shipping times? I'd expect to see that on the same page that lists the shipping options.
[L]
http://www.smugmug.com/prints/shipping.mg
Sorry for the confusion. We'll see if we can beef up the info in the cart!
"You'll see Airmail Letter and Airmail Parcel instead of 6-10 Business Day and 3-5 Business Day. These are US Postal Service methods and are handed off to the postal services of whatever countries they go through. These methods typically arrive within 3 weeks.
You'll see International Economy and International Express options, instead of Second or Next Business day. These ship through FedEx and timing varies by country. Please note that packages can get held up at customs, from time to time."
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2 locations in London, Ontario... one I happen to walk by twice daily (to and from work)
I recall being given many options as to where to have my prints processed, with the option to pick them up if I wanted.
I never did follow through with setting up an account there. I can still submit stuff for printing, and usually do manage my own sales and delivery locally
I do have a zoomphoto account, and I've use that for a couple weddings where attendees from anywhere can view and order...
That would most definitely help. I would prefer an approximate time frame under each shipping option, but even a link to the shipping page would also help. And it would be much better to have your cart intelligently show the options that apply to Canada instead of requiring customers to figure out multipliers and whatnot.
Thanks Andy.
[L]
If SM's business model is going to insist on cross-boarder shipping, then SM's cross-border clients will always be at a disadvantage. Pretty simple.
But it's even more surprising the General Manager would try to deflect responsibility so off-handedly. You may want to re-think that one. Smacks of an 'if you don't like it, take your business elsewhere' attitude.
Is that, perhaps, SM's official position?
Let's be frank. These problems exist today as a result of SM's continuing failure to address the concerns of its international pro clients. Not Canada Customs! Not Santa Claus! And not the clients.
Interestingly, SM appears to be treating its domestic clients in a similar manner.
When I signed on to a professional level account I fully expected I would be provided professional level (business-to-business) service. Not just a business-to-consumer sharing service painted a slightly brighter colour.
SM did point out at the time that Pro accounts were a new service, but promised, repeatedly, that changes were coming that would address many of our, often cited, concerns. (Even then it was apparent in several threads on DG that some folks were at wits-end waiting for packages and coupons.)
But I was new to the on-line photo business and I loved SM's attitude and promising, fresh approach, so I figured not only could we grow into it together, I might actually lend a small hand a helping it to happen.
But Andy. NOT ONE of the proferred 'Pro" service features has been implemented in the intervening year and a half! No coupons. no packages. no co-branding, no stock...
It really seems as if SM has simply put the pro service out to pasture without letting on.
And now it seems you're trying to tell us it's our border that's greatly decreasing the value of pro accounts to Canadian clients.
Perhaps you'd do better just promising, yet again, that SM is working on it.
I'm really sorry you feel this way. I have been posting till I'm blue in the face, so has Baldy - maybe you just haven't seen the posts. Coupons are in development. Pro lab - in development. Marketplace - stock - in development. We don't promise dates. But we have serious Sorcery resource on these projects right now. Dunno what else I can tell you
Our pros are hugely important to us and we plan on delivering on these items (coupons, a pro lab, stock stuff, and more!), as well as stepping up with even more features.
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