It was hard to find a male to male PC sync cord! Everything was male to female. Anyways...this would work right or this?
Sorry, yes if you just wanted to use the 420 slaved to the 580
the internal infared would work if you buy/use any more flashes
that are not infared compatible, use the optical slave route.
The cord you posted will work but 21" is a little short and not
gonna give you much working distance even though the coils
stretch to 5 foot they will probably want to pull you stand down when they do.
Sorry, yes if you just wanted to use the 420 slaved to the 580
the internal infared would work if you buy/use any more flashes
that are not infared compatible, use the optical slave route.
The cord you posted will work but 21" is a little short and not
gonna give you much room to move around.
21" wouldn't be enough to go up a flash bracket and connect to the camera? I wouldn't be using it to move my master flash around by hand, I mean I suppose I could, but I have a second flash now for that.
21" wouldn't be enough to go up a flash bracket and connect to the camera? I wouldn't be using it to move my master flash around by hand, I mean I suppose I could, but I have a second flash now for that.
it would be more than enough to go up a flash bracket as it stretches to 5 foot but as it is coiled will probably want to pull lighting stands down at that distance or any approaching it. You will know more your regarding intended lighting set-up(s) than I and if you don't forsee moving your key light any further away than the length you posted - the one you linked to will be fine.
it would be more than enough to go up a flash bracket as it stretches to 5 foot but as it is coiled will probably want to pull lighting stands down at that distance or any approaching it. You will know more your regarding intended lighting set-up(s) than I and if you don't forsee moving your key light any further away than the length you posted - the one you linked to will be fine.
I don't forsee needing more than 5', and that'd be hand held probably. 580 will either be on the camera, on the flash bracket, or stretched out as far as my arm can reach (which would be less than 5'). The 420 will just be fired by the 580 via IR. So I'm guessing this will be fine.
Now...and I hope this is the last question...is there any benefit to using a hot shoe adapter to the PC sync cord? By this I mean, will the PC sync cord have full control over the flash as the Hot Shoe adapter would?
I need to get a light meter? I have no idea even what this does exactly or how to use it. How NECESSARY is it? Remember, I don't have any money, so the less I can get away with the better right now.
Lastly this hasn't gotten addressed yet. Any ideas?
Lastly this hasn't gotten addressed yet. Any ideas?
In addition to what I said in post 20..
If it meant going without one and buying the cheapest
you can find.. buy the cheapest. it will save you a lot of time
and you will learn how to reproduce the effects you create
more easily.
with that being said some people get by without them fine,
I used to work without one. So see how you feel before investing
but there is no denying they come in very handy and save a lot of time.
I suppose it would also depend on what kind of things you
are going to be photographing. if its portraits I would be
more inclined to say buy one. but if it's event photography
or sports or whatever where the subject will be in accessible to meter
or you will be shooting TTL mostly, and not manual settings
then there is not much need.
I don't forsee needing more than 5', and that'd be hand held probably. 580 will either be on the camera, on the flash bracket, or stretched out as far as my arm can reach (which would be less than 5'). The 420 will just be fired by the 580 via IR. So I'm guessing this will be fine.
Now...and I hope this is the last question...is there any benefit to using a hot shoe adapter to the PC sync cord? By this I mean, will the PC sync cord have full control over the flash as the Hot Shoe adapter would?
Nothing I can think of (I am tired ) but one thing worth bearing in mind is
that the pc cable will not carry TTL information so you won't be able to use TTL mode while off the camera....so......if that is something you would
have preferred you would need a cable like one of these
(depending on your camera model) http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00019JPRO?ie=UTF8&tag=diy0c-20
instead of the PC sync cable..
If it meant going without one and buying the cheapest
you can find.. buy the cheapest. it will save you a lot of time
and you will learn how to reproduce the effects you create
more easily.
with that being said some people get by without them fine,
I used to work without one. So see how you feel before investing
but there is no denying they come in very handy and save a lot of time.
I suppose it would also depend on what kind of things you
are going to be photographing. if its portraits I would be
more inclined to say buy one. but if it's event photography
or sports or whatever where the subject will be in accessible to meter
or you will be shooting TTL mostly, and not manual settings
then there is not much need.
I don't normally usual manual mode on my flash as I don't really know how to fully use it yet. So I normally leave it on E-TTL mode. So you're saying by this I don't really need a light meter then? at least for now?
It would primarily be for portraits and weddings and such. With the occasional still life type stuff as well.
Nothing I can think of (I am tired ) but one thing worth bearing in mind is
that the pc cable will not carry TTL information so you won't be able to use TTL mode while off the camera....so......if that is something you would
have preferred you would need a cable like one of these
(depending on your camera model) http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00019JPRO?ie=UTF8&tag=diy0c-20
instead of the PC sync cable..
So I'm not entirely sure what the TTL stuff is. Going off my above statement, I'm guessing I would need the Hot Shoe cord, like the one you provided in the link (but the canon version)?
21" wouldn't be enough to go up a flash bracket and connect to the camera? I wouldn't be using it to move my master flash around by hand, I mean I suppose I could, but I have a second flash now for that.
I use short cables when using cables.....that is why I went RF (radio Frequency).......
Ok. So now on top of the:
Light Stand + Flash Mount Bracket
Flash Bracket + Hot Shoe Adapter
RF Trigger
Diffuser
I need to get a light meter? I have no idea even what this does exactly or how to use it. How NECESSARY is it? Remember, I don't have any money, so the less I can get away with the better right now.
Light meter.....your camera cannot meter flash for a lot of situations......mottled lighting outdoors (these are reallly hairy shadows in around trees)......a decent flash menter will meter both flash and ambient light and it will meter incident and reflected(reflected is what your camera does).....incident is done with the use of a white dome on the meter and it makes shooting various skin tones and white lacy dresses much easier.....a sekonic L-358.....even a good used or refurbed one would work.........there are lots of decent brands older used Minolta flash meter lll or lV or shephard FM1000 or polaris meters are pretty easy to find in good shape.......
I do not leave with my camera that I do not take a meter with me.......I do not trust in camera meters.....been scorched 1 time too many by them............
Ok. So my camera has a PC port on it. Can I not just use a PC to PC cord and connect the flash straight to the camera then mount the flash on the flash bracket? This way I wouldn't have to buy the RF trigger?
You can....absolutely.......but one day that cord is gonna break in side of the insulating cover and you won't be able to see it........I understand your a broke college student....that is why I have been trying to give you ways to save yourself grief in the long run.....I have PC cables up to 25 feet.....they are now gently coiled waiting for me to decide if I want to put on ebay....because they do not work perfectly for me, but do I want to take a chanceor just toss them and take the loss over getting a bad rep for selling crap on ebay.......I would not put up here for ssale.....I am doing a garage sell in May so maybe there.
Hi, the only failures I have encountered with the hot shoe syncs are their flimsiness i.e the plastic case likes to break off
and if this does it can stress the wire contacts if not sorted but they are very easy to repair (not much going on inside) and easy to prevent
doing so by just adding strong tape round the seams so they won't come apart. As for misfires... I would guess you would be
getting considerably more with an ebay wireless trigger.
PC sync cord from your camera directly into the sync socket that is on your 580 will be very reliable. much more so than the ebay triggers
Then you can fire off the 420 and any other flash that doesent have a sync socket with an optical slave like this for around 8$ or cheaper.
Just one wire to carry around then.
With this any one with a p/s camera anywhere near by will set it off also.....with the RF triggers you have 16 channels to set up and use.......rarely will you run into another photog using the same channels as you....if so them flip a couple switches and your good to go......
At one time a longtime ago I used optical slaves, not el cheapos a inthe photo above......mine were name brand and cost me over $50 each over 20yrs ago........I shot a wedding andall my photos oafterthe ceremony of family and groups (the formals) were under exposed.....not ruined.....just a stop or 2 under.....the next weekend I took someone to be a sherpa and this sherpa saw my flashes firing when I was working with the brides dress and my came was sitting idle on the t-pod.......uncle joe was shooting with flash and causing my strobes to fire......never used optical slaves again, infact just about 2 years ago I sold on here my last pair of P-nut optical slaves........it is RF or noting for me....as long as i have good batteries in the transmitter and reciever I am good to go
Couldn't I just use the IR capabilities of the 580 EX II as a master flash to fire the 420? Kinda confused on the BOLD section above I guess... Are saying if I wanted to use the 420 (or any other flash) as my master since it doesn't have a PC sync cord? Why would I want to do that though when the 580 is a better flash and can wirelessly trigger the 420?
If you use the ttl cable that you pictured in the begining, you can use the EttL seting of both flashes.....using a pc cord or an optical slave or the RF triggers means shooting in manual mode.....no ttl metering or camera talking to flash units............
I still prefer manual over givng control to that pesky nano bot inside a camera:D
Ok, now...how about we talk about full manual flash? I'll be reading my manual soon and trying to figure out some on my own, but any help is always and obviously appreciated.
I'm a little late to the game here but I have few contributions I think will make life a bit easier:
First, seperate your photography needs into portraits and weddings and, on paper, figure out what you need. Then merge the lists and acquire as necessary/possible.
For portraits, you control the lighting, the setting, the action, everything. This is a prime opportunity to work both camera and flash(es) in full manual mode. For this, I would use:
2, maybe 3 flashes/strobes. For each
In studio, you can use optical slaves as you are the only person with a camera. However, RF triggers will pull double duty when/if you choose to work weddings with off-camera flash.
Stand - 'cause off-camera light is sooooo much nicer than on-camera
Modifier - shoot through umbrella, reflecting umbrella, something
Some way to mount the flash and umbrella/modifier on the stand
If you are using more than one flash, then a flash/ambient incident light meter will make your life sooooo much easier. Not a requirement, but it sure will speed up your production, especially if you shift lighting between one pose and the next. As suggested above, a good place to start would be the Sekonic L-358. This thing will enable you to dial in each flash seperate from the others. It will also tell you the ratio between each of the flashes. It will also tell you the ratio between the flashes and the ambient (given that you correctly imput your working ISO and shutter speed). Finally, it will suggest the "proper" aperture to us.
For weddings, there are at least two ways to light: (1) on-camera flash, (2) off-camera light.
If you go on-camera, then a flash bracket that rotates the camera under the flash is an almost "must have". This would mean that you need a cord to connect between your camera and your flash. These used to be very flimsy, but Canon (at least) has recently upgraded them so they are better. They can still fail, but you don't have to treat them with kid-gloves like you used have to. You will also need some sort of light modifier. If possible (ceiling height, color, is there a ceiling?) I like to use a Better Bounce Card. They are cheap (costs something less than $3 to make 3 of them). If no ceiling or the ceiling is dark, then I like to use something like the light scoop. With on-camera flash, I use E-TTL, setting FEC appropriate to the circumstances and shot with the camera in full manual mode.
With off-camera flash, you set it and go. There's lots of strategies for setting lights, but the central issue is that the lights are almost certainly going to be full manaul (the EBay triggers don't support E-TTL, or any other camera-flash communication). So a light meter will just about be required, especially if you are setting up more than one light.
By now, you have probably figured out that I do ALL my portraits with full-manual, off-camera lighting - so the bracket isn't required. It also means that I don't use E-TTL for any of my portrait work.
Weddings - I don't use any lighting for the actual ceremony (unless it's outdoors) as most officiants don't allow it. The party, well that's a different story and I use full-manual, off-camera strobes/flashes, adjusting my aperture depending on the distance between the subject and the stationary strobes. Once in a while I am forced to use on-camera flash for the party - depends on the venue of the party.
All my off-camera lighting is triggered with PocketWizards - just more expensive versions of the EBay triggers suggested by Art Scott.
I hope this helps rather than further muddies the waters for you.
Ok, now...how about we talk about full manual flash? I'll be reading my manual soon and trying to figure out some on my own, but any help is always and obviously appreciated.
So...Full Manual Flash...THUNDER CATS GOOO!!!
Full manual flash - this implies/forces one to abandon E-TTL and things like High-Speed Shutter Synch. It also implies using the camera in full manual mode.
So....
You will need to determine what ISO, aperture, and shutter speed you will want to use.
Working indoors, this is easy:
ISO - things like wedding receptions, etc. I use ISO 800.
Aperture - This is used to control how much flash will contribute to your exposure. The smaller the aperture, the harder your flash will need to work to create a "proper" exposure. I usually shoot between f/2.8 and f/4.
Shutter speed - with manual flash, you are limited to a maximum of 1/250 (research x-sycn speed). The faster your shutter speed the less ambient will contribute to your exposure.
Outdoors, things are a lot more complicated, mostly because you are limited in your shutter speed - thus in your ability to easily control the ambient light. You will need to balance your ISO, aperture, and shutter speed. If it's bright out, you may find yourself shooting at 100, f/16, 1/250 with your flash working as fill at somewhere between f/5.6 and f/11 - in which case your flash is really going to be working hard. If you are using your flash(es) as key light, then they will be working that much harder. Oh, and remember, any modifier you use will steal anywhere between 1/2 and 2 stops of light. Such fun!
Wow. Lots of info. Honestly a bunch of terminology I'm not sure about. So I'll have to re-read, re-read again, re-read what I re-read, and then re-read again. See if I can make some sense out of it. I think my problem is I've just never used flash at all except for a little ETTL on-camera flash, which has had varying success. So I don't really know anything about anything about this flashy flash lighting stuff. It seems that there are so many things that do similar things that it confuses me. As well as the terminology and effect they have, exactly how to use the different things, when to use them, setting them up, shooting, re-setting for each shot? I have no idea. This is gonna take a long time. Damn.
I'm a little late to the game here but I have few contributions I think will make life a bit easier:
First, seperate your photography needs into portraits and weddings and, on paper, figure out what you need. Then merge the lists and acquire as necessary/possible. I don't do a lot of portraits...yet, but I have a couple weddings to do this spring-fall, and would like to get some practice in before hand so that I can practice at the weddings. They are just friends/family, not paid, or little paid, with the understand of my level I'm at, etc...
For portraits, you control the lighting, the setting, the action, everything. This is a prime opportunity to work both camera and flash(es) in full manual mode. For this, I would use:
2, maybe 3 flashes/strobes. For each I have two Flashes, 580 EX II and 420 EX
In studio, you can use optical slaves as you are the only person with a camera. However, RF triggers will pull double duty when/if you choose to work weddings with off-camera flash. The Hot Shoe Adapter I listed would work right? For both situations since my 580 will be on the bracket, and 420 will be triggered via IR via the 580...
Stand - 'cause off-camera light is sooooo much nicer than on-camera Got this on my list.
Modifier - shoot through umbrella, reflecting umbrella, something Would this be like the umbrella on the flash mount I linked to, and/or the SoftBox I linked to?
Some way to mount the flash and umbrella/modifier on the stand This would be the flash mount that I linked to correct?
If you are using more than one flash, then a flash/ambient incident light meter will make your life sooooo much easier. Not a requirement, but it sure will speed up your production, especially if you shift lighting between one pose and the next. As suggested above, a good place to start would be the Sekonic L-358. This thing will enable you to dial in each flash seperate from the others. It will also tell you the ratio between each of the flashes. It will also tell you the ratio between the flashes and the ambient (given that you correctly imput your working ISO and shutter speed). Finally, it will suggest the "proper" aperture to us. How is the term "incident" used in the incident light meter? That's throwing me off a little I think... When you're shifting poses, etc...Are you like moving all your other strobes (in my case the one 420 flash on a stand) around for every new pose, re-metering the light, setting everything up, then shooting? That seems like a lot of time/work for one shot. A lot of standing around waiting for the photographer to set up for the people that are getting their picture taken. So with the Sekonic L-358, you say I can dial in each flash separate of the others, even when my 580 is using IR to trigger the 420? I was under the assumption that the 580 sends all its info to the 420 via that... Am I missing something (probably)? It tells me the ratio that I need or that I have? I'm guessing that I need to have a "proper exposure" correct? So this will tell me how much flash I need for the ambient light, to properly calibrate the flash output power (FEC)? So I normally shoot on Av (Aperture Priority on Canon), so would it then tell me the "proper" shutter speed? Or should I be shooting on Tv (Shutter Speed Priority) and letting the light meter tell me what aperture to use?
For weddings, there are at least two ways to light: (1) on-camera flash, (2) off-camera light.
If you go on-camera, then a flash bracket that rotates the camera under the flash is an almost "must have". This would mean that you need a cord to connect between your camera and your flash. These used to be very flimsy, but Canon (at least) has recently upgraded them so they are better. They can still fail, but you don't have to treat them with kid-gloves like you used have to. You will also need some sort of light modifier. If possible (ceiling height, color, is there a ceiling?) I like to use a Better Bounce Card. They are cheap (costs something less than $3 to make 3 of them). If no ceiling or the ceiling is dark, then I like to use something like the light scoop. With on-camera flash, I use E-TTL, setting FEC appropriate to the circumstances and shot with the camera in full manual mode. The flash bracket and connecting cord I linked to would fulfill that... By light modifier, that would be the SoftBox that I linked to correct? The "Better Bounce Card" seems to be a white piece of paper folded around the flash head (pointed upwards) rubber banded (or another type of attachment) to the base of the flash head...correct? So you shoot the camera in Full manual mode and flash on E-TTL? As I entirely know how to use full manual mode, I prefer Av as my lighting situations and what not tend to change, I guess...I dunno... I shot full manual for awhile, and sometimes just forgot that I was on manual and forgot to adjust stuff, so I'd have way over or under exposed pictures. Is Av appropriate for this or should I start doing full manual again?
With off-camera flash, you set it and go. There's lots of strategies for setting lights, but the central issue is that the lights are almost certainly going to be full manaul (the EBay triggers don't support E-TTL, or any other camera-flash communication). So a light meter will just about be required, especially if you are setting up more than one light. So as the set up I have now, 580 on camera (will be on bracket) with hot shoe cord, 580 IR triggering the 420 which will be on a stand with an umbrella (maybe, at least a diffuser), I should be shooting the flashes in full manual? I have no idea how to shoot full manual flash... :cry . On top of not knowing how to shoot full manual flash, I should have a light meter for the current set up I have (or will have soon)?
By now, you have probably figured out that I do ALL my portraits with full-manual, off-camera lighting - so the bracket isn't required. It also means that I don't use E-TTL for any of my portrait work. So beings I don't know how to use full manual yet, nor do I really do much portraiture, I should still have the bracket and shoot E-TTL as my current list of stuff will alot me to do...right?
Weddings - I don't use any lighting for the actual ceremony (unless it's outdoors) as most officiants don't allow it. The party, well that's a different story and I use full-manual, off-camera strobes/flashes, adjusting my aperture depending on the distance between the subject and the stationary strobes. Once in a while I am forced to use on-camera flash for the party - depends on the venue of the party. On-camera flash would still consider the bracket with flash mounted correct? So this is not normally suggested for weddings? "Adjust your aperture depending on the distance between the subject and the stationary strobes"? So I'm still assuming we are shooting in either full manual mode (camera) or Tv...correct? What about for Av?
All my off-camera lighting is triggered with PocketWizards - just more expensive versions of the EBay triggers suggested by Art Scott. So the IR trigger built into the 580 is not a recommended way to trigger the off-camera flash (420)?
I hope this helps rather than further muddies the waters for you.
Full manual flash - this implies/forces one to abandon E-TTL and things like High-Speed Shutter Synch. It also implies using the camera in full manual mode.
So....
You will need to determine what ISO, aperture, and shutter speed you will want to use. I guess my issue is I tend to work outdoors, so that's constantly changing...
Working indoors, this is easy:
ISO - things like wedding receptions, etc. I use ISO 800. You use ISO 800 for wedding receptions? Because of the normally low light I'm guessing? I can't stand the noise, I try to stay at 400 or below...suitable?
Aperture - This is used to control how much flash will contribute to your exposure. The smaller the aperture, the harder your flash will need to work to create a "proper" exposure. I usually shoot between f/2.8 and f/4. I tend to shoot close to wide open as well, unless I want to have a wide DOF obviously.
Shutter speed - with manual flash, you are limited to a maximum of 1/250 (research x-sycn speed). The faster your shutter speed the less ambient will contribute to your exposure. I know about x-sync speed, but even with manual flash, as in High-Speed sync, I can't user higher than 1/250th? Sometimes, as in bright daylight, that's just not enough, especially with an f/5.6 ish or lower... I shot a wedding in summer last year, where at f/4, 1/500th wasn't even enough at ISO 100... So how could I obtain a faster shutter speed over my x-sync speed?
Outdoors, things are a lot more complicated, mostly because you are limited in your shutter speed - thus in your ability to easily control the ambient light. You will need to balance your ISO, aperture, and shutter speed. If it's bright out, you may find yourself shooting at 100, f/16, 1/250 with your flash working as fill at somewhere between f/5.6 and f/11 - in which case your flash is really going to be working hard. If you are using your flash(es) as key light, then they will be working that much harder. Oh, and remember, any modifier you use will steal anywhere between 1/2 and 2 stops of light. Such fun! So if shooting outdoors, it'll most likely be fill light I'm guess, I have the second flash to try and eliminate shadows...right? So I'm guessing in full manual flash I can't go past my x-sync speed of 1/250th, so I'll be needing to widen my DOF by taking my aperture down a few stops? What if I'm wanting a narrow DOF, outdoors, in bright sunlight, and fill light. Is this not possible with the x-sync speed of only 250th?
Just like Scott, I'm late to the game (wow, this thread grew up fast considering it's only two days old.. ), yet I think I have something to say...
Despite all possible budget contraints I strongly recommend against any xTTL technology and speedlites in general.
Portraiture is all about controlling the light and background (as Ziggy already said).
You can use original digital rebel and its lousy 18-65 kit lens and still take wonderful portraits - provided you have control over your light and bg. Our very own Yuri Pautov has been working with Sony DSC 707 for the longest time, so it's really not the camera question...
Speedltes/TTL is great for PJ work and other situations when you simply must be extremely mobile (events, redcarpets, etc.)
But for Portraiture - come on What you need is reliably controllable light and - people don't often realize this until much later into the game - extensive set of modifiers and environmental light control, i.e. control of light handling properties of your studio.
Just like Scott, I'm late to the game (wow, this thread grew up fast considering it's only two days old.. ), yet I think I have something to say...
Despite all possible budget contraints I strongly recommend against any xTTL technology and speedlites in general.
Portraiture is all about controlling the light and background (as Ziggy already said).
You can use original digital rebel and its lousy 18-65 kit lens and still take wonderful portraits - provided you have control over your light and bg. Our very own Yuri Pautov has been working with Sony DSC 707 for the longest time, so it's really not the camera question...
Speedltes/TTL is great for PJ work and other situations when you simply must be extremely mobile (events, redcarpets, etc.)
But for Portraiture - come on What you need is reliably controllable light and - people don't often realize this until much later into the game - extensive set of modifiers and environmental light control, i.e. control of light handling properties of your studio.
PJ work? So pretty much everything we've been talking about to use my 580 and 420, throw away for what I'm wanting to do? Invest in studio lighting and strobes? Haul all that around to weddings and such and set up, re-configure for every shot?
Since you have the 580 and the 420, you are set for studio if you want to use E-TTL and don't mind having the 580 on your camera. The 580, mounted on your camera (with a bracket) will by your master and will, via the IR communications to the 420, both set and trigger the 420. No need for RF triggers or cables or anything else. It's when the 580 is NOT on the camera that you are "forced" to go full manual.
A softbox is a modifier and does much the same job as the shoot through umby.
How is the term "incident" used in the incident light meter? That's throwing me off a little I think... When you're shifting poses, etc...Are you like moving all your other strobes (in my case the one 420 flash on a stand) around for every new pose, re-metering the light, setting everything up, then shooting? That seems like a lot of time/work for one shot. A lot of standing around waiting for the photographer to set up for the people that are getting their picture taken. So with the Sekonic L-358, you say I can dial in each flash separate of the others, even when my 580 is using IR to trigger the 420? I was under the assumption that the 580 sends all its info to the 420 via that... Am I missing something (probably)? It tells me the ratio that I need or that I have? I'm guessing that I need to have a "proper exposure" correct? So this will tell me how much flash I need for the ambient light, to properly calibrate the flash output power (FEC)? So I normally shoot on Av (Aperture Priority on Canon), so would it then tell me the "proper" shutter speed? Or should I be shooting on Tv (Shutter Speed Priority) and letting the light meter tell me what aperture to use?
Incident - this is the light that is incident to your subject - the light that hits your subject and is reflected. The meter measures the light that hits your subject - it doesn't care about how much of that is reflected or in which direction.
Whenever I move a pose - I was referring to small groups where the light might need to be changed, the odds are about even that I'll be moving lights. When you move lights, the odds are better than even that the power output of at least one of them will need to be changed.
From the reading I've done, I think, with the 580 as the master, all you need to do is dial in the flash ratios. The camera and flashes talk to each other and determine how much power they each need to deliver to the subject. This will, necessarily, be a bit of a trial and error process as the flashes/camera work from the amount of light reflected from the subject. This can cause the equipment to over-expose a dark subject and under-expose a light subject.
When shooting E-TTL, inside, I have found the best way to shoot is to set the camera to manual mode, set the ISO, aperture, and shutter speed I want and then shoot a few test shots while dialing in the FEC to get the exposure "right". If you have the camera in, for example, Av mode, the camera will meter the ambient (before triggering the flash) and set the shutter speed for the aperture/ISO combination - without taking the contribution from the flash(es) into consideration - results is some very slow shutter speeds.
The flash bracket and connecting cord I linked to would fulfill that... By light modifier, that would be the SoftBox that I linked to correct? The "Better Bounce Card" seems to be a white piece of paper folded around the flash head (pointed upwards) rubber banded (or another type of attachment) to the base of the flash head...correct? So you shoot the camera in Full manual mode and flash on E-TTL? As I entirely know how to use full manual mode, I prefer Av as my lighting situations and what not tend to change, I guess...I dunno... I shot full manual for awhile, and sometimes just forgot that I was on manual and forgot to adjust stuff, so I'd have way over or under exposed pictures. Is Av appropriate for this or should I start doing full manual again?
Yes, that's what a BBC is. Works very well for situations other than portraits (and even then it can serve it's purpose quite well). As for the manual/Av/Tv discussion, see my previous paragraph. Basically, the Canon cameras are quite stupid (or I am - the jury is still out on that one ) when it comes to using flash in a dark environment.
So beings I don't know how to use full manual yet, nor do I really do much portraiture, I should still have the bracket and shoot E-TTL as my current list of stuff will alot me to do...right?
Again, the need to use a bracket is driven by the situation. If you have the flash on camera, then a bracket is a good idea. If the flash is not in full manual mode (and you can do that when the flash is connected to the camera), then you are shooting E-TTL.
So the IR trigger built into the 580 is not a recommended way to trigger the off-camera flash (420)?
Sorry, I missed, in previous posts, that you had this flash combination and just added to the confusion. As for the question - inside, the IR is a great tool and works quite well as long as you have good line-of-sight between the various flashes. They can even work well around corners as long as the IR signals can bounce. Outdoors - results vary. Pathfinder has had remarkable success with this combination (or similar, using the ST-E2) and triggering the slave flashes. Others, not so much.
You use ISO 800 for wedding receptions? Because of the normally low light I'm guessing? I can't stand the noise, I try to stay at 400 or below...suitable?
I use 800 because, with proper exposure, the noise is not bothersome - especially by the time you get to prints. It's only when you zoom into 100% on a computer monitor that the ISO 800 noise becomes an issue. Suitable - if you have the power to spare. Remember, the difference between ISO 400 and ISO 800 is one stop - that's double the amount of light/power. If you have the power - great. But, I have found this to be an unsupportable drain on batteries. If I'm shooting a reception and using my AB800 strobes (and I do that most of the time), there are instances where the strobes can't re-power fast enough to keep up .... especially if I have a second photog working with me.
I know about x-sync speed, but even with manual flash, as in High-Speed sync, I can't user higher than 1/250th? Sometimes, as in bright daylight, that's just not enough, especially with an f/5.6 ish or lower... I shot a wedding in summer last year, where at f/4, 1/500th wasn't even enough at ISO 100... So how could I obtain a faster shutter speed over my x-sync speed?
I believe (but I'm not sure) that HSS is a function provided by E-TTL. If that's true, then manual flash and E-TTL are mutually exclusive, in which case you are limited to the x-sync. To my knowledge the only way to get effective flash at shutter speeds greater than 1/250 with a 50D is with HSS. This requires (again, I think) E-TTL.
PJ work? So pretty much everything we've been talking about to use my 580 and 420, throw away for what I'm wanting to do? Invest in studio lighting and strobes? Haul all that around to weddings and such and set up, re-configure for every shot?
PJ Work - PhotoJournalism. This the way a lot of weddings,etc are handled now. You must be mobile for that. So, doing PJ work is where the 580 (on-camera) shines. In that case, the bracket is a requirement.
Portraits - again, like I said in my first post in this thread - you control everything, include the pace. And, moving the lights from one pose to another is a distinct possibility.
Since you have the 580 and the 420, you are set for studio if you want to use E-TTL and don't mind having the 580 on your camera. The 580, mounted on your camera (with a bracket) will by your master and will, via the IR communications to the 420, both set and trigger the 420. No need for RF triggers or cables or anything else. It's when the 580 is NOT on the camera that you are "forced" to go full manual.
I don't mind having the 580 on camera (or on a bracket).
A softbox is a modifier and does much the same job as the shoot through umby.
Ok. Thanks.
Incident - this is the light that is incident to your subject - the light that hits your subject and is reflected. The meter measures the light that hits your subject - it doesn't care about how much of that is reflected or in which direction.
Gotchya. Thanks.
Whenever I move a pose - I was referring to small groups where the light might need to be changed, the odds are about even that I'll be moving lights. When you move lights, the odds are better than even that the power output of at least one of them will need to be changed.
Figured that much, I guess I just gotta practice...
From the reading I've done, I think, with the 580 as the master, all you need to do is dial in the flash ratios. The camera and flashes talk to each other and determine how much power they each need to deliver to the subject. This will, necessarily, be a bit of a trial and error process as the flashes/camera work from the amount of light reflected from the subject. This can cause the equipment to over-expose a dark subject and under-expose a light subject.
Yes this is true, and makes sense. So to fix the under/over expose, the light meter will do that?
When shooting E-TTL, inside, I have found the best way to shoot is to set the camera to manual mode, set the ISO, aperture, and shutter speed I want and then shoot a few test shots while dialing in the FEC to get the exposure "right". If you have the camera in, for example, Av mode, the camera will meter the ambient (before triggering the flash) and set the shutter speed for the aperture/ISO combination - without taking the contribution from the flash(es) into consideration - results is some very slow shutter speeds.
Inside that makes sense, seems more sensible. Outside on the other hand it would seem to change too much as clouds pass, shadow's are cast, sun is setting, etc...
Yes, that's what a BBC is. Works very well for situations other than portraits (and even then it can serve it's purpose quite well). As for the manual/Av/Tv discussion, see my previous paragraph. Basically, the Canon cameras are quite stupid (or I am - the jury is still out on that one ) when it comes to using flash in a dark environment.
So basically I should just go back to using full manual mode...? How do I meter for the flash though when it only fires when I fire it?
Again, the need to use a bracket is driven by the situation. If you have the flash on camera, then a bracket is a good idea. If the flash is not in full manual mode (and you can do that when the flash is connected to the camera), then you are shooting E-TTL.
It will most likely be on camera, unless for whatever reason I just hand hold it and use the cord. But at that point I have the 420 to move around to do my side lighting etc...
Sorry, I missed, in previous posts, that you had this flash combination and just added to the confusion. As for the question - inside, the IR is a great tool and works quite well as long as you have good line-of-sight between the various flashes. They can even work well around corners as long as the IR signals can bounce. Outdoors - results vary. Pathfinder has had remarkable success with this combination (or similar, using the ST-E2) and triggering the slave flashes. Others, not so much.
So I should just try it out. Another thing I read while reading my manual on the 580 in the wireless section, was that if the slave flash is facing away from master flash and line of sight cannot be obtained, then use the swivel and/or articulating head to turn the IR receiver towards the 580 while the flash head is still pointed in the direction you want. That work?
I use 800 because, with proper exposure, the noise is not bothersome - especially by the time you get to prints. It's only when you zoom into 100% on a computer monitor that the ISO 800 noise becomes an issue. Suitable - if you have the power to spare. Remember, the difference between ISO 400 and ISO 800 is one stop - that's double the amount of light/power. If you have the power - great. But, I have found this to be an unsupportable drain on batteries. If I'm shooting a reception and using my AB800 strobes (and I do that most of the time), there are instances where the strobes can't re-power fast enough to keep up .... especially if I have a second photog working with me.
I suppose this has where my problem has been, in which I posted in another thread somewhere... My photos tend to be a little underexposed. Even when my Exposure Comp is set to 0 ev. Haven't yet figured out why. So bringing the exposure back up, in combination with a higher ISO, produces horrible results (on screen, haven't test printed). The extra light power it takes though is something I hadn't thought of. I suppose I just need to work on my exposure, figure out why it underexposes stuff. (what metering mode do you use normally for weddings? Spot? the weddings I've done thus far have been evaluative, maybe a reason why?)
I believe (but I'm not sure) that HSS is a function provided by E-TTL. If that's true, then manual flash and E-TTL are mutually exclusive, in which case you are limited to the x-sync. To my knowledge the only way to get effective flash at shutter speeds greater than 1/250 with a 50D is with HSS. This requires (again, I think) E-TTL.
So if I need a shallow DOF, am in bright light, and using a flash for like fill or something, I would have to use E-TTL on HSS... Got it.
PJ Work - PhotoJournalism. This the way a lot of weddings,etc are handled now. You must be mobile for that. So, doing PJ work is where the 580 (on-camera) shines. In that case, the bracket is a requirement.
Perfect. Thanks.
Portraits - again, like I said in my first post in this thread - you control everything, include the pace. And, moving the lights from one pose to another is a distinct possibility.
By portraits I'm guessing that's like studio type stuff. Which I currently do none of. So the set-up previously mentioned in post 47 should be about perfect for what I'm doing?
Candid Arts.......go spend a little bit of time over at Strobist.com ...... there you will find out just what you can actually do with shoe mount strobes.......in fact I guarantee that if you learn your equipment you will have NO need for expensive studio strobes (yes I have 5 studio strobes).....I prefer the use of Vivatar 285HV's or Sunpak622 over studio lighting when going on location..........
If you are willing to actually learn how to use your speedlights you can actually make any type of modifier you could need for studio work.............
Huge studio lights and power packs present an image to a client......the only thing a studio strobe has over a shoe or handle mount flash unit is the modeling light......when running of a batter power pack that same studio strobes modeling light will not function or it will drain you power source very quickly.........
Scott,
with all due respect, softbox has a much better directional light control compared to an umbrella, let alone the fact you can (and in most cases shoud) put a grid (egg-crate) on it, which you simply can never do with an umbrella.
CA: I'm not saying you can't do portrait photography with speedlites. What I am saying is: if the portrait photography is the primary direction of your future photography, it's a very ineffective (and in my personal book, plain wrong) way of getting there.
As I mentioned several times already, few years ago Shay advised me into getting manually controllable lights and pospone getting better camera (I was shooting Sony 828 at the time:-). I followed his advice and never regretted it. The camera has long gone, I have replaced five more dslr bodies since, but I'm still using those lights:-)
Scott,
with all due respect, softbox has a much better directional light control compared to an umbrella, let alone the fact you can (and in most cases shoud) put a grid (egg-crate) on it, which you simply can never do with an umbrella.
CA: I'm not saying you can't do portrait photography with speedlites. What I am saying is: if the portrait photography is the primary direction of your future photography, it's a very ineffective (and in my personal book, plain wrong) way of getting there.
As I mentioned several times already, few years ago Shay advised me into getting manually controllable lights and pospone getting better camera (I was shooting Sony 828 at the time:-). I followed his advice and never regretted it. The camera has long gone, I have replaced five more dslr bodies since, but I'm still using those lights:-)
Nikolai...with all due respect....the one thing you're over looking is that shoe mount and handle mount strobes are manually controllable.....completely from full to 1/16 or 1/32nd power.......you may need more of them to get to 3200 ws but in portrait work you seldom need more than a GN of 100 in reality......I only use tons of flash power at a wedding.....in portrait work everything is powered down to get the desired effect(s) or powered up for high key but I seldom have a use for high key in this part of the midwest..............
So I went over to my local camera shop to look at some of the products first hand and see how they feel and work. I talked to a couple different employees and actually got to play with some stuff, so that was good.
One of the employees recommended the Gary Fong Lightsphere over the softbox. What do you guy's think about the lightsphere vs a bounce card I can make for like $5?
It sounds like the light meter is a definite. I actually got to see one, see how it works, how to use it, etc... So that was good. Just spendy...:-/
First guy I talked to said NO WAY on a flash bracket. Heavy, and he'd just rather hand hold the flash where he wants it. Thoughts? The second guy I talked to said definitely use a flash bracket for weddings and the like... Hmmm...
The first guy also told me that the IR signal from the 580 to trigger the 420 WILL NOT work in bright sunlight. Thoughts? He suggested something like the Pocket Wizard. Which is beneficial not only because it's RF versus IR, but it can travel up to 1600', and you can remotely pop the flashes for your light meter to read, which is nice. But no way I can afford a Pocket Wizard set up right now. Uhmmm...I think that's about it for right now, although I'm sure in 5 minutes I'll have more. Haha.
Candid Arts.......go spend a little bit of time over at Strobist.com ...... there you will find out just what you can actually do with shoe mount strobes.......in fact I guarantee that if you learn your equipment you will have NO need for expensive studio strobes (yes I have 5 studio strobes).....I prefer the use of Vivatar 285HV's or Sunpak622 over studio lighting when going on location..........
If you are willing to actually learn how to use your speedlights you can actually make any type of modifier you could need for studio work.............
Huge studio lights and power packs present an image to a client......the only thing a studio strobe has over a shoe or handle mount flash unit is the modeling light......when running of a batter power pack that same studio strobes modeling light will not function or it will drain you power source very quickly.........
Thanks for the tips, I'll try and get some time to go over there.
As for the recent posts by you and Nikolai, it seems your focus is on portrait photography. As some day I might be doing that, in a studio type setting, right now I'm just worried about weddings. Outdoor ceremonies, indoor receptions, maybe even indoor ceremonies... So how does this all apply to ONLY the wedding side of portraiture?
Scott,
with all due respect, softbox has a much better directional light control compared to an umbrella, let alone the fact you can (and in most cases shoud) put a grid (egg-crate) on it, which you simply can never do with an umbrella.
Comments
Sorry, yes if you just wanted to use the 420 slaved to the 580
the internal infared would work if you buy/use any more flashes
that are not infared compatible, use the optical slave route.
The cord you posted will work but 21" is a little short and not
gonna give you much working distance even though the coils
stretch to 5 foot they will probably want to pull you stand down when they do.
mpex do a 15 footer for $10 if that's more use to you?
http://www.mpex.com/browse.cfm/4,861.html
21" wouldn't be enough to go up a flash bracket and connect to the camera? I wouldn't be using it to move my master flash around by hand, I mean I suppose I could, but I have a second flash now for that.
OneTwoFiftieth | Portland, Oregon | Modern Portraiture
My Equipment:
Bodies: Canon 50D, Canon EOS 1
Lenses: Canon 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5, Canon 24-105mm f/4L IS, Canon 50mm f/1.4, Canon 100mm f/2.8 Macro, Canon MP-E 65mm f/2.8
Lighting: Canon 580EXII, Canon 420 EX, 12" Reflector, Pocket Wizard Plus II (3), AB800 (3), Large Softbox
Stability: Manfrotto 190CXPRO3 Tripod, Manfrotto 488RC4 Ball Head, Manfrotto 679B Monopod
it would be more than enough to go up a flash bracket as it stretches to 5 foot but as it is coiled will probably want to pull lighting stands down at that distance or any approaching it. You will know more your regarding intended lighting set-up(s) than I and if you don't forsee moving your key light any further away than the length you posted - the one you linked to will be fine.
I don't forsee needing more than 5', and that'd be hand held probably. 580 will either be on the camera, on the flash bracket, or stretched out as far as my arm can reach (which would be less than 5'). The 420 will just be fired by the 580 via IR. So I'm guessing this will be fine.
Now...and I hope this is the last question...is there any benefit to using a hot shoe adapter to the PC sync cord? By this I mean, will the PC sync cord have full control over the flash as the Hot Shoe adapter would?
OneTwoFiftieth | Portland, Oregon | Modern Portraiture
My Equipment:
Bodies: Canon 50D, Canon EOS 1
Lenses: Canon 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5, Canon 24-105mm f/4L IS, Canon 50mm f/1.4, Canon 100mm f/2.8 Macro, Canon MP-E 65mm f/2.8
Lighting: Canon 580EXII, Canon 420 EX, 12" Reflector, Pocket Wizard Plus II (3), AB800 (3), Large Softbox
Stability: Manfrotto 190CXPRO3 Tripod, Manfrotto 488RC4 Ball Head, Manfrotto 679B Monopod
Lastly this hasn't gotten addressed yet. Any ideas?
OneTwoFiftieth | Portland, Oregon | Modern Portraiture
My Equipment:
Bodies: Canon 50D, Canon EOS 1
Lenses: Canon 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5, Canon 24-105mm f/4L IS, Canon 50mm f/1.4, Canon 100mm f/2.8 Macro, Canon MP-E 65mm f/2.8
Lighting: Canon 580EXII, Canon 420 EX, 12" Reflector, Pocket Wizard Plus II (3), AB800 (3), Large Softbox
Stability: Manfrotto 190CXPRO3 Tripod, Manfrotto 488RC4 Ball Head, Manfrotto 679B Monopod
In addition to what I said in post 20..
If it meant going without one and buying the cheapest
you can find.. buy the cheapest. it will save you a lot of time
and you will learn how to reproduce the effects you create
more easily.
with that being said some people get by without them fine,
I used to work without one. So see how you feel before investing
but there is no denying they come in very handy and save a lot of time.
I suppose it would also depend on what kind of things you
are going to be photographing. if its portraits I would be
more inclined to say buy one. but if it's event photography
or sports or whatever where the subject will be in accessible to meter
or you will be shooting TTL mostly, and not manual settings
then there is not much need.
Nothing I can think of (I am tired
that the pc cable will not carry TTL information so you won't be able to use TTL mode while off the camera....so......if that is something you would
have preferred you would need a cable like one of these
(depending on your camera model) http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00019JPRO?ie=UTF8&tag=diy0c-20
instead of the PC sync cable..
I don't normally usual manual mode on my flash as I don't really know how to fully use it yet. So I normally leave it on E-TTL mode. So you're saying by this I don't really need a light meter then? at least for now?
It would primarily be for portraits and weddings and such. With the occasional still life type stuff as well.
So I'm not entirely sure what the TTL stuff is. Going off my above statement, I'm guessing I would need the Hot Shoe cord, like the one you provided in the link (but the canon version)?
OneTwoFiftieth | Portland, Oregon | Modern Portraiture
My Equipment:
Bodies: Canon 50D, Canon EOS 1
Lenses: Canon 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5, Canon 24-105mm f/4L IS, Canon 50mm f/1.4, Canon 100mm f/2.8 Macro, Canon MP-E 65mm f/2.8
Lighting: Canon 580EXII, Canon 420 EX, 12" Reflector, Pocket Wizard Plus II (3), AB800 (3), Large Softbox
Stability: Manfrotto 190CXPRO3 Tripod, Manfrotto 488RC4 Ball Head, Manfrotto 679B Monopod
Me either.....
I use short cables when using cables.....that is why I went RF (radio Frequency).......
Light meter.....your camera cannot meter flash for a lot of situations......mottled lighting outdoors (these are reallly hairy shadows in around trees)......a decent flash menter will meter both flash and ambient light and it will meter incident and reflected(reflected is what your camera does).....incident is done with the use of a white dome on the meter and it makes shooting various skin tones and white lacy dresses much easier.....a sekonic L-358.....even a good used or refurbed one would work.........there are lots of decent brands older used Minolta flash meter lll or lV or shephard FM1000 or polaris meters are pretty easy to find in good shape.......
I do not leave with my camera that I do not take a meter with me.......I do not trust in camera meters.....been scorched 1 time too many by them............
You can....absolutely.......but one day that cord is gonna break in side of the insulating cover and you won't be able to see it........I understand your a broke college student....that is why I have been trying to give you ways to save yourself grief in the long run.....I have PC cables up to 25 feet.....they are now gently coiled waiting for me to decide if I want to put on ebay....because they do not work perfectly for me, but do I want to take a chanceor just toss them and take the loss over getting a bad rep for selling crap on ebay.......I would not put up here for ssale.....I am doing a garage sell in May so maybe there.
With this any one with a p/s camera anywhere near by will set it off also.....with the RF triggers you have 16 channels to set up and use.......rarely will you run into another photog using the same channels as you....if so them flip a couple switches and your good to go......
At one time a longtime ago I used optical slaves, not el cheapos a inthe photo above......mine were name brand and cost me over $50 each over 20yrs ago........I shot a wedding andall my photos oafterthe ceremony of family and groups (the formals) were under exposed.....not ruined.....just a stop or 2 under.....the next weekend I took someone to be a sherpa and this sherpa saw my flashes firing when I was working with the brides dress and my came was sitting idle on the t-pod.......uncle joe was shooting with flash and causing my strobes to fire......never used optical slaves again, infact just about 2 years ago I sold on here my last pair of P-nut optical slaves........it is RF or noting for me....as long as i have good batteries in the transmitter and reciever I am good to go
If you use the ttl cable that you pictured in the begining, you can use the EttL seting of both flashes.....using a pc cord or an optical slave or the RF triggers means shooting in manual mode.....no ttl metering or camera talking to flash units............
I still prefer manual over givng control to that pesky nano bot inside a camera:D
Paramount is probably the best cord manuafacturer in the world....they have been around for ever it seems
Hot Shoe Adapter (So I can have full TTL operation)
Light Stand + Flash Mount
Flash Bracket + Flash Mount Adapter (or Flash Foot)
Softbox Diffuser
Light Meter
This should be it right?
Ok, now...how about we talk about full manual flash? I'll be reading my manual soon and trying to figure out some on my own, but any help is always and obviously appreciated.
So...Full Manual Flash...THUNDER CATS GOOO!!!
OneTwoFiftieth | Portland, Oregon | Modern Portraiture
My Equipment:
Bodies: Canon 50D, Canon EOS 1
Lenses: Canon 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5, Canon 24-105mm f/4L IS, Canon 50mm f/1.4, Canon 100mm f/2.8 Macro, Canon MP-E 65mm f/2.8
Lighting: Canon 580EXII, Canon 420 EX, 12" Reflector, Pocket Wizard Plus II (3), AB800 (3), Large Softbox
Stability: Manfrotto 190CXPRO3 Tripod, Manfrotto 488RC4 Ball Head, Manfrotto 679B Monopod
First, seperate your photography needs into portraits and weddings and, on paper, figure out what you need. Then merge the lists and acquire as necessary/possible.
For portraits, you control the lighting, the setting, the action, everything. This is a prime opportunity to work both camera and flash(es) in full manual mode. For this, I would use:
- 2, maybe 3 flashes/strobes. For each
- In studio, you can use optical slaves as you are the only person with a camera. However, RF triggers will pull double duty when/if you choose to work weddings with off-camera flash.
- Stand - 'cause off-camera light is sooooo much nicer than on-camera
- Modifier - shoot through umbrella, reflecting umbrella, something
- Some way to mount the flash and umbrella/modifier on the stand
- If you are using more than one flash, then a flash/ambient incident light meter will make your life sooooo much easier. Not a requirement, but it sure will speed up your production, especially if you shift lighting between one pose and the next. As suggested above, a good place to start would be the Sekonic L-358. This thing will enable you to dial in each flash seperate from the others. It will also tell you the ratio between each of the flashes. It will also tell you the ratio between the flashes and the ambient (given that you correctly imput your working ISO and shutter speed). Finally, it will suggest the "proper" aperture to us.
For weddings, there are at least two ways to light: (1) on-camera flash, (2) off-camera light.If you go on-camera, then a flash bracket that rotates the camera under the flash is an almost "must have". This would mean that you need a cord to connect between your camera and your flash. These used to be very flimsy, but Canon (at least) has recently upgraded them so they are better. They can still fail, but you don't have to treat them with kid-gloves like you used have to. You will also need some sort of light modifier. If possible (ceiling height, color, is there a ceiling?) I like to use a Better Bounce Card. They are cheap (costs something less than $3 to make 3 of them). If no ceiling or the ceiling is dark, then I like to use something like the light scoop. With on-camera flash, I use E-TTL, setting FEC appropriate to the circumstances and shot with the camera in full manual mode.
With off-camera flash, you set it and go. There's lots of strategies for setting lights, but the central issue is that the lights are almost certainly going to be full manaul (the EBay triggers don't support E-TTL, or any other camera-flash communication). So a light meter will just about be required, especially if you are setting up more than one light.
By now, you have probably figured out that I do ALL my portraits with full-manual, off-camera lighting - so the bracket isn't required. It also means that I don't use E-TTL for any of my portrait work.
Weddings - I don't use any lighting for the actual ceremony (unless it's outdoors) as most officiants don't allow it. The party, well that's a different story and I use full-manual, off-camera strobes/flashes, adjusting my aperture depending on the distance between the subject and the stationary strobes. Once in a while I am forced to use on-camera flash for the party - depends on the venue of the party.
All my off-camera lighting is triggered with PocketWizards - just more expensive versions of the EBay triggers suggested by Art Scott.
I hope this helps rather than further muddies the waters for you.
My Photos
Thoughts on photographing a wedding, How to post a picture, AF Microadjustments?, Light Scoop
Equipment List - Check my profile
So....
My Photos
Thoughts on photographing a wedding, How to post a picture, AF Microadjustments?, Light Scoop
Equipment List - Check my profile
My replies in BOLD below...
OneTwoFiftieth | Portland, Oregon | Modern Portraiture
My Equipment:
Bodies: Canon 50D, Canon EOS 1
Lenses: Canon 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5, Canon 24-105mm f/4L IS, Canon 50mm f/1.4, Canon 100mm f/2.8 Macro, Canon MP-E 65mm f/2.8
Lighting: Canon 580EXII, Canon 420 EX, 12" Reflector, Pocket Wizard Plus II (3), AB800 (3), Large Softbox
Stability: Manfrotto 190CXPRO3 Tripod, Manfrotto 488RC4 Ball Head, Manfrotto 679B Monopod
OneTwoFiftieth | Portland, Oregon | Modern Portraiture
My Equipment:
Bodies: Canon 50D, Canon EOS 1
Lenses: Canon 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5, Canon 24-105mm f/4L IS, Canon 50mm f/1.4, Canon 100mm f/2.8 Macro, Canon MP-E 65mm f/2.8
Lighting: Canon 580EXII, Canon 420 EX, 12" Reflector, Pocket Wizard Plus II (3), AB800 (3), Large Softbox
Stability: Manfrotto 190CXPRO3 Tripod, Manfrotto 488RC4 Ball Head, Manfrotto 679B Monopod
Despite all possible budget contraints I strongly recommend against any xTTL technology and speedlites in general.
Portraiture is all about controlling the light and background (as Ziggy already said).
You can use original digital rebel and its lousy 18-65 kit lens and still take wonderful portraits - provided you have control over your light and bg. Our very own Yuri Pautov has been working with Sony DSC 707 for the longest time, so it's really not the camera question...
Speedltes/TTL is great for PJ work and other situations when you simply must be extremely mobile (events, redcarpets, etc.)
But for Portraiture - come on
PJ work? So pretty much everything we've been talking about to use my 580 and 420, throw away for what I'm wanting to do? Invest in studio lighting and strobes? Haul all that around to weddings and such and set up, re-configure for every shot?
OneTwoFiftieth | Portland, Oregon | Modern Portraiture
My Equipment:
Bodies: Canon 50D, Canon EOS 1
Lenses: Canon 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5, Canon 24-105mm f/4L IS, Canon 50mm f/1.4, Canon 100mm f/2.8 Macro, Canon MP-E 65mm f/2.8
Lighting: Canon 580EXII, Canon 420 EX, 12" Reflector, Pocket Wizard Plus II (3), AB800 (3), Large Softbox
Stability: Manfrotto 190CXPRO3 Tripod, Manfrotto 488RC4 Ball Head, Manfrotto 679B Monopod
A softbox is a modifier and does much the same job as the shoot through umby.
Incident - this is the light that is incident to your subject - the light that hits your subject and is reflected. The meter measures the light that hits your subject - it doesn't care about how much of that is reflected or in which direction.
Whenever I move a pose - I was referring to small groups where the light might need to be changed, the odds are about even that I'll be moving lights. When you move lights, the odds are better than even that the power output of at least one of them will need to be changed.
From the reading I've done, I think, with the 580 as the master, all you need to do is dial in the flash ratios. The camera and flashes talk to each other and determine how much power they each need to deliver to the subject. This will, necessarily, be a bit of a trial and error process as the flashes/camera work from the amount of light reflected from the subject. This can cause the equipment to over-expose a dark subject and under-expose a light subject.
When shooting E-TTL, inside, I have found the best way to shoot is to set the camera to manual mode, set the ISO, aperture, and shutter speed I want and then shoot a few test shots while dialing in the FEC to get the exposure "right". If you have the camera in, for example, Av mode, the camera will meter the ambient (before triggering the flash) and set the shutter speed for the aperture/ISO combination - without taking the contribution from the flash(es) into consideration - results is some very slow shutter speeds.
Yes, that's what a BBC is. Works very well for situations other than portraits (and even then it can serve it's purpose quite well). As for the manual/Av/Tv discussion, see my previous paragraph. Basically, the Canon cameras are quite stupid (or I am - the jury is still out on that one
Again, the need to use a bracket is driven by the situation. If you have the flash on camera, then a bracket is a good idea. If the flash is not in full manual mode (and you can do that when the flash is connected to the camera), then you are shooting E-TTL.
Sorry, I missed, in previous posts, that you had this flash combination and just added to the confusion. As for the question - inside, the IR is a great tool and works quite well as long as you have good line-of-sight between the various flashes. They can even work well around corners as long as the IR signals can bounce. Outdoors - results vary. Pathfinder has had remarkable success with this combination (or similar, using the ST-E2) and triggering the slave flashes. Others, not so much.
I use 800 because, with proper exposure, the noise is not bothersome - especially by the time you get to prints. It's only when you zoom into 100% on a computer monitor that the ISO 800 noise becomes an issue. Suitable - if you have the power to spare. Remember, the difference between ISO 400 and ISO 800 is one stop - that's double the amount of light/power. If you have the power - great. But, I have found this to be an unsupportable drain on batteries. If I'm shooting a reception and using my AB800 strobes (and I do that most of the time), there are instances where the strobes can't re-power fast enough to keep up .... especially if I have a second photog working with me. I believe (but I'm not sure) that HSS is a function provided by E-TTL. If that's true, then manual flash and E-TTL are mutually exclusive, in which case you are limited to the x-sync. To my knowledge the only way to get effective flash at shutter speeds greater than 1/250 with a 50D is with HSS. This requires (again, I think) E-TTL.
PJ Work - PhotoJournalism. This the way a lot of weddings,etc are handled now. You must be mobile for that. So, doing PJ work is where the 580 (on-camera) shines. In that case, the bracket is a requirement.
Portraits - again, like I said in my first post in this thread - you control everything, include the pace. And, moving the lights from one pose to another is a distinct possibility.
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Thoughts on photographing a wedding, How to post a picture, AF Microadjustments?, Light Scoop
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Ok. Thanks.
Gotchya. Thanks.
Figured that much, I guess I just gotta practice...
Yes this is true, and makes sense. So to fix the under/over expose, the light meter will do that?
Inside that makes sense, seems more sensible. Outside on the other hand it would seem to change too much as clouds pass, shadow's are cast, sun is setting, etc...
So basically I should just go back to using full manual mode...? How do I meter for the flash though when it only fires when I fire it?
It will most likely be on camera, unless for whatever reason I just hand hold it and use the cord. But at that point I have the 420 to move around to do my side lighting etc...
So I should just try it out. Another thing I read while reading my manual on the 580 in the wireless section, was that if the slave flash is facing away from master flash and line of sight cannot be obtained, then use the swivel and/or articulating head to turn the IR receiver towards the 580 while the flash head is still pointed in the direction you want. That work?
I suppose this has where my problem has been, in which I posted in another thread somewhere... My photos tend to be a little underexposed. Even when my Exposure Comp is set to 0 ev. Haven't yet figured out why. So bringing the exposure back up, in combination with a higher ISO, produces horrible results (on screen, haven't test printed). The extra light power it takes though is something I hadn't thought of. I suppose I just need to work on my exposure, figure out why it underexposes stuff. (what metering mode do you use normally for weddings? Spot? the weddings I've done thus far have been evaluative, maybe a reason why?)
So if I need a shallow DOF, am in bright light, and using a flash for like fill or something, I would have to use E-TTL on HSS... Got it.
Perfect. Thanks.
By portraits I'm guessing that's like studio type stuff. Which I currently do none of. So the set-up previously mentioned in post 47 should be about perfect for what I'm doing?
OneTwoFiftieth | Portland, Oregon | Modern Portraiture
My Equipment:
Bodies: Canon 50D, Canon EOS 1
Lenses: Canon 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5, Canon 24-105mm f/4L IS, Canon 50mm f/1.4, Canon 100mm f/2.8 Macro, Canon MP-E 65mm f/2.8
Lighting: Canon 580EXII, Canon 420 EX, 12" Reflector, Pocket Wizard Plus II (3), AB800 (3), Large Softbox
Stability: Manfrotto 190CXPRO3 Tripod, Manfrotto 488RC4 Ball Head, Manfrotto 679B Monopod
If you are willing to actually learn how to use your speedlights you can actually make any type of modifier you could need for studio work.............
Huge studio lights and power packs present an image to a client......the only thing a studio strobe has over a shoe or handle mount flash unit is the modeling light......when running of a batter power pack that same studio strobes modeling light will not function or it will drain you power source very quickly.........
A book you could also use is here ........
with all due respect, softbox has a much better directional light control compared to an umbrella, let alone the fact you can (and in most cases shoud) put a grid (egg-crate) on it, which you simply can never do with an umbrella.
CA: I'm not saying you can't do portrait photography with speedlites. What I am saying is: if the portrait photography is the primary direction of your future photography, it's a very ineffective (and in my personal book, plain wrong) way of getting there.
As I mentioned several times already, few years ago Shay advised me into getting manually controllable lights and pospone getting better camera (I was shooting Sony 828 at the time:-). I followed his advice and never regretted it. The camera has long gone, I have replaced five more dslr bodies since, but I'm still using those lights:-)
Nikolai...with all due respect....the one thing you're over looking is that shoe mount and handle mount strobes are manually controllable.....completely from full to 1/16 or 1/32nd power.......you may need more of them to get to 3200 ws but in portrait work you seldom need more than a GN of 100 in reality......I only use tons of flash power at a wedding.....in portrait work everything is powered down to get the desired effect(s) or powered up for high key but I seldom have a use for high key in this part of the midwest..............
One of the employees recommended the Gary Fong Lightsphere over the softbox. What do you guy's think about the lightsphere vs a bounce card I can make for like $5?
It sounds like the light meter is a definite. I actually got to see one, see how it works, how to use it, etc... So that was good. Just spendy...:-/
First guy I talked to said NO WAY on a flash bracket. Heavy, and he'd just rather hand hold the flash where he wants it. Thoughts? The second guy I talked to said definitely use a flash bracket for weddings and the like... Hmmm...
The first guy also told me that the IR signal from the 580 to trigger the 420 WILL NOT work in bright sunlight. Thoughts? He suggested something like the Pocket Wizard. Which is beneficial not only because it's RF versus IR, but it can travel up to 1600', and you can remotely pop the flashes for your light meter to read, which is nice. But no way I can afford a Pocket Wizard set up right now. Uhmmm...I think that's about it for right now, although I'm sure in 5 minutes I'll have more. Haha.
OneTwoFiftieth | Portland, Oregon | Modern Portraiture
My Equipment:
Bodies: Canon 50D, Canon EOS 1
Lenses: Canon 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5, Canon 24-105mm f/4L IS, Canon 50mm f/1.4, Canon 100mm f/2.8 Macro, Canon MP-E 65mm f/2.8
Lighting: Canon 580EXII, Canon 420 EX, 12" Reflector, Pocket Wizard Plus II (3), AB800 (3), Large Softbox
Stability: Manfrotto 190CXPRO3 Tripod, Manfrotto 488RC4 Ball Head, Manfrotto 679B Monopod
Thanks for the tips, I'll try and get some time to go over there.
As for the recent posts by you and Nikolai, it seems your focus is on portrait photography. As some day I might be doing that, in a studio type setting, right now I'm just worried about weddings. Outdoor ceremonies, indoor receptions, maybe even indoor ceremonies... So how does this all apply to ONLY the wedding side of portraiture?
OneTwoFiftieth | Portland, Oregon | Modern Portraiture
My Equipment:
Bodies: Canon 50D, Canon EOS 1
Lenses: Canon 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5, Canon 24-105mm f/4L IS, Canon 50mm f/1.4, Canon 100mm f/2.8 Macro, Canon MP-E 65mm f/2.8
Lighting: Canon 580EXII, Canon 420 EX, 12" Reflector, Pocket Wizard Plus II (3), AB800 (3), Large Softbox
Stability: Manfrotto 190CXPRO3 Tripod, Manfrotto 488RC4 Ball Head, Manfrotto 679B Monopod
My Photos
Thoughts on photographing a wedding, How to post a picture, AF Microadjustments?, Light Scoop
Equipment List - Check my profile