Gymnastics: Canon vs. Nikon; your choice?

austinado16

As some of you may have seen in a recent gymnastics thread that I dredged up, I'm looking to buy my first DSLR setup in order to shoot my daughter's Gymnastics. Competition season doesn't start until end of August, so I've got plenty of time to learn, shop, practice, etc.

So I was wondering if I could get some opinions on Canon vs. Nikon. I'm not looking to start a brand war, just looking for info like:

-Which is better in low light at high/higher ISO's
-Which has faster, more accurate focusing
-Anything else that makes a camera good for non-flash, gym lit sports

Here are some of the real life examples I have so far:
1) One of the parents at our gym is using a Nikon D80 w/ 18-200DX VR f3.5-5.6 lens shooting in "sports" mode. She's able to stop action, and getting alot of decent shots.

2) One of the pros here is shooting a d300 with the 70-200 f2.8 VR lens and he's getting great shots. He's tried the lens on a d90 and says there's a noticeable difference in performance

3) Another member here is shooting a Canon 40d w/ Canon 70-200 f2.8 and is also getting great results

4) The local pro here in town who comes to our meets is using a Canon 1d (possibly) and a big Canon lens (I'm not sure which one) and IMO, the photos aren't that great because they're sort of washed out and the background is sort of too in focus. Again, that's just my opinion.

Looking forward to learning more. And just to clarify, I'm only going to be shooting gymnastics with this. I don't need it to do movies, and I don't care about having a gazillion megapixels. I also don't want to have to run to something like noise ninja and/or photoshop to make the pictures correct looking. So for example, if an xti can take the shots I want, but then I have to spend time in PP cleaning them up, I'm not interested.....if that makes sense.

Edit: Forgot to mention the money factor. My intent is to by used and the d300, is top of what I'm willing to pay for....or it's Canon equivalent. I figure somewhere between the Canon xti, Nikon d80, and d300, etc. there's a camera that will do what I need. Maybe it's just the d300 and I should pull the trigger on one.

But I wanted to get other's opinions too.

Cuong

See if you can borrow one and try it out.

Cuong

Rocketman766

If you can't borrow one, you could always narrow down your choices and rent them (final 2???). Its just a bit pricey to rent the bodies + lens, but cheaper than buying and then finding out you bought the wrong one. It's good that you have so long to figure this out and from my experience, the lighting is the same at practice as it is at the gymnastics meets.

austinado16

Great suggestions.

A week or so ago, I did price renting from www.lensrentals.com and it was something like $125 for the body and $109 for the 70-200 f2.8 zoom. I thought that was sort of cost prohibative.

I've been bouncing back and forth between the Canon 40d and the Nikon D80 until Keith(Beetle8) threw down the gauntlet with his Nikon D300 those nice photos on his website. Problem is, the D300's are $1,200ish used right now. Still a great deal against their $2,500 new price.....but $1,200 is $1,200.

The Canon xti is about $350 used and a non IS 70-200/2.8 is $900-$1,000 = $1,350.
The Canon 40d is about $700 used and a non IS 70-200/2.8 is $900-$1,000 = $1,700.
The Nikon D80 is about $850 used and a used 70-200/2.8 lens maybe $1,400 = $2,200.
The Nikon D300 is about $1,200...................................lens...........$1,400 = $2,600.

I've seen shots from all 3 cameras (albeit online) and they all look good and stop motion with the D300 seeming to have better looking photos as far as color/focus/background blur goes.....at a price, of course.

So that's why I was hoping to get more input from users, and from folks that are really into the technical aspects.

Edit: Rocketman are you using the xsi in your sig to shoot the photos in your linked gymstars albums? If so, those are really nice. What lens do you usually use?

Tee Why

All those cameras will do the job. The lens will make more of a difference IMO.

In terms of bodies, I'd recommend looking at two factors, first AF performance and then noise levels.

To me, the XTi, 40D, and d300 have similar levels of noise. Pixel peeping measurebators may argue, but that's what they are good at arguing minutia.
The D80 has a CCD based sensor which I hear is noticeably noisier than the CMOS sensor, so I'd avoid that personally.

In terms of AF and also fps, the d300 would be tops, followed by the 40D and then the D80 and then the XTi.

If money is not a factor, I'd get a d300 and a 70-200mm f2.8VR, if you want the cheapest route, then the XTi and a 70-200mm f2.8. To me a good compromise may be the 40D with a 70-200mm f2.8.

The 40D has a good AF system, great IQ, and paired with a 70-200mm f2.8 non IS lens would AF extremely fast as well.

Some other cheaper options are the Tamron 70-200mm f2.8 lens, it may not AF as fast as the Canon/Nikon counterparts but is much cheaper as well.

Lastly, in my view, among the cameras and lenses you are considering, the skill of the shooter may make the most difference. I would not expect a big difference if you are using the d300/70-200mm vs a XTi/70-200mm if you are not familiar with photography and especially low lights sports shooting.

The difference in the quality of the images you are seeing from the folks may be more due to skill levels than difference in gears.

Good luck.

Toshido

Can only really speak on behalf of the Canon bodies chosen...

Go to a reputable camera shop and feel the cameras. Hold them, browse the menus, change simple setting like ISO, shutter speed, aperture, etc... The UI makes a big difference.

I went from rebel XT to 50D and then added a grip on the 50D and I LOVE the larger more substntial size and feel to it. Also much prefer the UI of the xxD series.

Whatever you decide let us know, we are a nosy bunch. And i am sure you will enjoy whichever you choose with.

austinado16

Great info Tee Why, thanks!

I definately agree about skill level being a huge factor.

I'm going to stick with the manufacturer's lens, which ever way I go. I don't know enought to be able to say, "A Tamron or Sigma will be fine for stuff I'm going to be doing." and I'd hate to spend down and wind up with photos that are consistantly poor due to the couple-o-hundred I saved on a lens.

There's been a slight pull toward Canon from the beginning because I already have a bunch of Canon lenses, filters, and a PL, from a recent 35mm set up I purchased. None of them except for the 24/2.8 will really do anything in the gym though (and the 24 is only good up close, of course) so I can just sell all of them and put that $ toward something Nikon.

But details like your; CCD vs CMOS comparison and other real world shooting info is what will really help me make a more informed choice.

Toshido thanks. I've been thinking about going into the local camera shop, but feel bad about wasting their time since I won't be buying from them. Wish I could go down and write them a fat check and walk out with new gear, but that's not reality. I'll definately update when I buy a setup...and post some photos so you guys can say, "Holy :jawdrop . He should have saved his money!"
Thanks again.

Toshido

If you feel bad about going into a camera shop look for a photo group in the area. I found a nice group of guys through Flickr. They may be willing to help you out.

I know the local group to me has a monthly pub meeting where everyone sits around drinking beer and talking cameras. Looks like most bring their toys as well.

Rocketman766

austinado16 wrote:

Edit: Rocketman are you using the xsi in your sig to shoot the photos in your linked gymstars albums? If so, those are really nice. What lens do you usually use?

Thanks for the kind words. I have used lensrentals.com and have been really happy with the lenses and service from them.

As for my shots that you asked about, Yes, I am using the Xsi listed in my sig. It is currently my only body. I am saving up for a 1D MkIII, but that is going to take some time. I shot all of those shots on my site with my Canon Xsi and no flash. Lenses used with it for each competition listed below:

COA National Championships: lens used was a Sigma APO 50-150mm f/2.8 EX DC HSM (bought used on Craigslist for $300 )

Fitness for Kids Cheer Challenge: lens used was a Canon 17-55mm f/2.8 IS . This may not be the perfect lens for this application, but the promoter put me just 2 feet from the competition floor, so the 70-200mm f/2.8 USM that was at my side, would have been too much (I took test shots from each to test...). lens rented from lensrentals.com

Cheer for the Cure: lens used was a Canon 100mm f/2.0 USM. The lighting was terrible at this site so i had to use this one to get a fast enough shutter speed. Picked this lens up on ebay for $150.

Cheersport and Great Lakes Upstate Championship: lens used was a Canon 70-200mm f/2.8L USM. The first was shot with an IS model, but IS turned OFF, the second was shot with a NON- IS model.

cmkultradome

Austinado 16

Tee Why wrote:

If money is not a factor, I'd get a d300 and a 70-200mm f2.8VR, if you want the cheapest route, then the XTi and a 70-200mm f2.8. To me a good compromise may be the 40D with a 70-200mm f2.8.

The 40D has a good AF system, great IQ, and paired with a 70-200mm f2.8 non IS lens would AF extremely fast as well.

I think you might have commented on my original post about Girls gymnastics. Last year I was shooting with a Canon xTi. I looked at my kids athletic schedules (gymnastics, wrestling, & hockey - all low light indoor sports) and rented a 70-200mm L non-IS lens from lensrentals.com for a month where I would get the most bang for my buck. This included 3 gymnastics invitationals, 4 wrestling meets, and 8 hockey games. It costs me about $180 with insurance. I was so happy with the lens but went into a depression when I had to send it back!! This year I upgraded to the 40D and found a used Canon 70-200mm L non-IS on sportsshooters.com for $700. I'm as happy as a clam. Saving up for the 85mm 1.8 which I also hear is good for indoor sports if you can get close enough to the action. Of course my dream is to get something in the 1D Mark series (when I win the lottery) because of the great AF and the high ISO!!

Good luck with your decision.

Stephanie

austinado16

Hey Stephanie,
Thanks for weighing in. I liked your pictures and was hoping to hear from you about what body and lens you were using. Great score on the 70-200/2.8!

I certainly wouldn't mind owning the same gear.

One thing I've been thinking about is lens options, because as a parent, one minute I'm near my daughter, or she's really close by, and the next minute she's out "on the floor" for a while....and then she's back again for a while. There are lots of photo opportunities and I hate to miss out on the close ups. If I went with Canon, I've got a Canon 24/2.8 that would handle all the close stuff fine. It's not an L series though. Anyway, that's one thing about the Nikon and that 18-200 lens they have. The gal that shoots with that at our gym is able to use it for everything. Considering the talk about 2.8's, it's amazing the quaulity of her shots (using a d80 & Nikkor 18-200/3.5-5.6).

Wayzata

i shoot canon and for indoor sports i like fast primes so i can get a fast shutter speed.

i suggest a canon 40d with 85 1.8 and 70-200 2.8 (you really do not need IS for action) and keep your 24 2.8 for the close up stuff.

pic below is with the 85 1.8

austinado16

Thanks Wayzata....the scale is tipping more toward Canon and a 40d.

Actually got my hands on an xti today at a bday party my daughter attended. The family hosting the party had one. I was surprised at how small it was. I guess I expected something more like a 35mm body. Geez....I need to get out more!

Here's all the stuff that came in the Canon Rebel II purchase:
Canon 24mm fF2.8
Canon 35-80mm f4-5.6
Canon 70-210mm f4
Tamron 2x converter
Tamron 28-300mm f3.5-6.3
Kalimar 800-1200mm (which I'm selling because I'll never use it)
Manfrotto Monopod
Vivitar auto focus zoom flash
A dozen filters including a PL and a 3 way?
A nice gear bag that it all fits into

So if I add a decent body to all that, there's some versatility. Nothing for use in gymnastics other than the 24mm though.

Wayzata

all those lenses with the exception of the 24 2.8 are limited. i would buy good glass before i buy a good body.

what is your budget?

austinado16

Yeah, there's nothing special about any of the lenses, and certainly they wouldn't work for gymnastics (other than up close w/ the 24mm). But they'd be fine for regular usage and would IMO turn a 40d body purchase into a good "kit."

Of course I'd still buy good glass.

My budget is sort of middle-of-the-road, like $2,000ish.

What I'm seeing on Craigslist puts a 40d and non-is 70-200/2.8 at about $1,600-$1,700. The used Nikon D300 and VR lens would be about $2,900

Maybe a question that I should ask is about the lenses, since those seem to be what a person hangs onto.

I've read some about cameras shooting with a crop factor and that now there's a move to go back to full frame......am I stating that correctly?

So are Canon L series lenses made for both versions? Are Nikons?

waygard33

austinado16 wrote:

Yeah, there's nothing special about any of the lenses, and certainly they wouldn't work for gymnastics (other than up close w/ the 24mm). But they'd be fine for regular usage and would IMO turn a 40d body purchase into a good "kit."

Of course I'd still buy good glass.

My budget is sort of middle-of-the-road, like $2,000ish.

What I'm seeing on Craigslist puts a 40d and non-is 70-200/2.8 at about $1,600-$1,700. The used Nikon D300 and VR lens would be about $2,900

Maybe a question that I should ask is about the lenses, since those seem to be what a person hangs onto.

I've read some about cameras shooting with a crop factor and that now there's a move to go back to full frame......am I stating that correctly?

So are Canon L series lenses made for both versions? Are Nikons?

Hey Todd, Good to see you out here. Sounds like you're coming up to speed quickly. I know you've been busy...haven't seen you posting in the other forum.

I don't know about Nikon but Canon's EF-S lenses are built for the crop body sensors only. Will not work on a full frame camera. (*My understanding. Correct as needed)

The EF lenses, built for the full frame camera, will work on both. I try to buy EF lenses for my XSi in case I ever move that far up the food chain.

As for 'a move back to full frame', I don't think there is such a thing. The full frames have been and continue to be out there. They are just bigger and more expensive. I believe there are several threads discussing the pros and cons of the crop sensor vs full frame. I'm sure you'll find them all and devour them.:D

Looking forward to hearing about your purchase.

Wayne in Oregon

kiz5

If I could ... a Canon 200 1.8, paired with a Nikon D3.

austinado16

UPDATE: pulled the trigger on a Canon 40d
Picked up a 40d today for $650.00. It came with the Canon battery grip, Canon camera bag, 1 extra battery, and that thick 40d book, plus all of it's original gear. Just under 900 actuations I think.

Without reading any instructions I ran over to the gym with my 24mm/2.8 lens and took some test shots in manual mode with 1600ISO, f2.8 and 1/125th shutter.

Most are looking about like below, and I'm wondering if it is because the gym has all their lighting off, and so it's darker than usual with just the skylights? Opinions/Suggestions? Will be reading through the user guide tonight.

Tee Why

background is in focus while the subject is a blur, looks like movement blur due to the slow shutter speed.
Exposure looks ok, maybe a touch dark on the face.

I'd recommend ISO 3200 and about 1/200 to better expose the face and freeze the motion. Of course you'll get a lot more noise in return.

waygard33

austinado16 wrote:

Picked up a 40d today for $650.00. It came with the Canon battery grip, Canon camera bag, 1 extra battery, and that thick 40d book, plus all of it's original gear. Just under 900 actuations I think.

Without reading any instructions I ran over to the gym with my 24mm/2.8 lens and took some test shots in manual mode with 1600ISO, f2.8 and 1/125th shutter.

Most are looking about like below, and I'm wondering if it is because the gym has all their lighting off, and so it's darker than usual with just the skylights? Opinions/Suggestions? Will be reading through the user guide tonight.

That gym looks awfully dark. The dark mats and walls don't help. I know that the f/2.8 on my XSi would be marginal at best but I bet I could do reasonably well with my 50mm f/1.8. Not sure how the 40D compares to that. Keep trying and maybe borrow a faster lens for testing?

Wayne in Oregon

jfriend

austinado16 wrote:

Picked up a 40d today for $650.00. It came with the Canon battery grip, Canon camera bag, 1 extra battery, and that thick 40d book, plus all of it's original gear. Just under 900 actuations I think.

Without reading any instructions I ran over to the gym with my 24mm/2.8 lens and took some test shots in manual mode with 1600ISO, f2.8 and 1/125th shutter.

Most are looking about like below, and I'm wondering if it is because the gym has all their lighting off, and so it's darker than usual with just the skylights? Opinions/Suggestions? Will be reading through the user guide tonight.

That's pretty dark in there. You missed both focus and exposure. For focus, you will need to learn how to use the dynamic focus or continuous focus modes on the camera (I don't know what Canon calls it) and learn how to track your subject to get it in focus.

For exposure, I would suggest that you set your camera to spot meter, walk up to this girl when she's stationary and see what you camera wants the exposure to be when you point the spot meter at her skin. Then, set that exposure in manual mode and shoot away. The particular scene you shot here is a nightmare for a meter because she's backlit. In general, you will want to change your shooting angle to find a cleaner (and hopefully darker) background when shooting gymnastics, though a totally clean background is often tough.

If this is the lighting you are stuck with, then you might need ISO 3200, f/1.8 or flash (see if flash is allowed). Flash will probably give you the best results if it's allowed and it will also help you stop the action.

If you can't use flash, you will probably be constantly fighting motion blur with slow shutter speeds. The best work-around for a challenged shutter speed to that is to learn how to take shots at the apex of motion (right when the athlete has paused before changing direction) like at the top of jump, when they pause at the top of the bars, etc.... You can't shoot things like vault or a tumbling run on the floor without either flash or a faster shutter speed unless you're capturing the pose after landing.

austinado16

Yeah, it's the worst in there right now because they're not running the overhead lighting.......probably trying to save $$ on their utility bill.

I'm going back over this afternoon armed with "spot metering mode," "AIServo focusing mode" and I'll see what I can pull off. The only lens I have right now that fast is the 24mm, so I'll be limited on what I can get until I buy the Canon 70-200/2.8.

I also need to read about setting the ISO up to 3200 and try a couple shots like that to see what kind of noise level I get.

Competition season doesn't start until Sept. so I've got some time to get this dialed in.

I sure appreciate everyone's feedback.

Qarik

Form a nikon side..best ISO peformance is the D700. Maybe 1 stop better then the D300. But it is full frame so you lose zoom.

Form crop body..D300 is the obvious choice. Good iso and robust AF. The it is tradeoff between the D90 which has equivalent ISO to d300 but not as robust AF, and teh D200 which has robust AF but not quite as good on the ISO.

Price wise:

D700 $2700
D90 $900
D200 $600

As far the lens..ideally the 70-200mm VR.

austinado16

Great, now a Nikon user steps up!

Would have loved to get a D300, which comes highly recommended by "Beetle8" but they're still in the $1,200 range used, and their 20-700/2.8 lens is another $1,500-$1,700ish. Unfortunately, I just can't spend that kind of money.

CookieS

If no one mentioned it, the sigma 70-200 f 2.8 is a nice substitute for the canon 70-200 or you can also get the canon 70-200 F4 IS, its lighter. If you are not used to handholding the big lenese. the fatigue can get to you . thd 40D Is a very capable camera in low light. try your spot metering and also manual mode, a wide angle isnt going to do much for you at gymnastics.

austinado16

I can't shoot an f4 lens, it's just too slow inside the gyms. I've thought about the Sigma or Tamron f2.8 versions, but the nice used non-IS Canon 70-200/2.8's are only a few hundred more. I'd rather spend up on the glass right now.

Yes, I'll definately be shooting in manual mode. And yes, the 24mm is only for testing and close stuff. The zoom will probably be my standard fare.

KellyC

Qarik wrote:

Form a nikon side..best ISO peformance is the D700. Maybe 1 stop better then the D300. But it is full frame so you lose zoom.

Form crop body..D300 is the obvious choice. Good iso and robust AF. The it is tradeoff between the D90 which has equivalent ISO to d300 but not as robust AF, and teh D200 which has robust AF but not quite as good on the ISO.

Price wise:

D700 $2700
D90 $900
D200 $600

As far the lens..ideally the 70-200mm VR.

I have the D90 with the Nikkor 70-200mm VR lens and if the gym is poorly lit, it does not do a very good job. I tried shooting deck hockey at our local YMCA, and their gym is poorly lit (the worst I have ever been in). The D90 was slow focusing and I had the ISO at 1600. The pictures came out grainy. For some it may have been acceptable, but I would not recommend it. I think normal gym lighting would be fine, but I have not had the chance to try it yet.

Kelly

Hikin' Mike

austinado16 wrote:

I can't shoot an f4 lens, it's just too slow inside the gyms. I've thought about the Sigma or Tamron f2.8 versions, but the nice used non-IS Canon 70-200/2.8's are only a few hundred more. I'd rather spend up on the glass right now.

Yes, I'll definately be shooting in manual mode. And yes, the 24mm is only for testing and close stuff. The zoom will probably be my standard fare.

I'm using a 5D/70-200 f/4L only because I'm a nature photographer first and a parent second! I wish I had a f/2.8 lens, but I get by with my set up...

5D, 70-200 f/4L, ISO 3200, 1/320, f/4

austinado16

What the heck Hikin Mike!! Talk to me!

A gal (mom) at our gym is getting nice shots with a D80 and that Nikkor 18-200 3.5-5.6 DX VR lens. What's up with that?

Anyway, here's one from tonight's effort. Read how to get passed the 1600ISO to "H" which is 3200ISO. I think in the Nikon's that's "H1?"

So this is at 3200ISO/24mm f2.8/AIServo Mode for focus/Spot Metering. It's better than last night, but gettting noisey. There's a noise reduction feature that haven't turn "on" yet, so I'll try that tomorrow.

But Mike, how are you getting such a bright subject? Is our gym that poorly lit, or am I still not getting "it?"

Hikin' Mike

austinado16 wrote:

What the heck Hikin Mike!! Talk to me!

A gal (mom) at our gym is getting nice shots with a D80 and that Nikkor 18-200 3.5-5.6 DX VR lens. What's up with that?

Anyway, here's one from tonight's effort. Read how to get passed the 1600ISO to "H" which is 3200ISO. I think in the Nikon's that's "H1?"

So this is at 3200ISO/24mm f2.8/AIServo Mode for focus/Spot Metering. It's better than last night, but gettting noisey. There's a noise reduction feature that haven't turn "on" yet, so I'll try that tomorrow.

But Mike, how are you getting such a bright subject? Is our gym that poorly lit, or am I still not getting "it?"

That gym and particularly that location had the best lighting so far. This is is typical...

5D, 70-200 f/4L, ISO 3200, 1/160, f/4 and I may have bumped it up in ACR...



Our gym is too small to host an event and our lighting is terrible. :cry

austinado16

Man you're getting some nice shots.......and your daughter is on fire! What level is she competing in?

:cry I have a lot to learn about shooting gymnastics (and I hope it's not, "You'd shouldn't have bought a 40d")!