You might want to consider my suggestion in post #46 of this thread. I would not consider manual focusing during competition. Also test and verify that the lens you're using can focus properly (not front or back focus). I found out the hard way last season that my brand new 85mm f/1.8 lens was back focusing after the meet. Needless to say, almost all of the photos taken with that lens went in the trash.
Cuong
I did take your advice and the thumb button is active. I've also tried all of the focusing modes in order to see what does better and when. The other thing I've been working on is manual focus....focus where the gymnast will be and then take the photo when they get there. I used that for some tumbling passes on the floor and it worked well.
I did take your advice and the thumb button is active. I've also tried all of the focusing modes in order to see what does better and when. The other thing I've been working on is manual focus....focus where the gymnast will be and then take the photo when they get there. I used that for some tumbling passes on the floor and it worked well.
Sorry, misunderstood your "manual focus". I also do that for vault when taken from the side.
Cuong
"She Was a Little Taste of Heaven – And a One-Way Ticket to Hell!" - Max Phillips
New (to me) camera
Couldn't pass up a deal on the local Craigslist for a 50D. I'm much happier with the results I'm getting now. Our first Meet is in Santa Cruz, Sept. 11-13 so time to get back to the gym and start honing my skills.
Couldn't pass up a deal on the local Craigslist for a 50D. I'm much happier with the results I'm getting now. Our first Meet is in Santa Cruz, Sept. 11-13 so time to get back to the gym and start honing my skills.
This is from the first set of photos I took with it, last Friday. Of course the real "proof" in both camera, and most importantly, my skill, is going to be in the action shots. I'll post some of those in a bit too. Our gym is still a real struggle to shoot in because they continue to leave the lights either off, or only light half of the lights.
Slowly but surely, the pics seem to be getting better.
The big problem is that you picked a very difficult area to learn photography. Low light that is uneven and fast moving subjects.
I personally would disable the AF with the shutter release button so you only focus with the thumb as you are doing. That way, you can just use the most sensitive center AF point and you can preset your focus point and let the subject come into focus or use AI Servo with the thumb if you want to follow them as they tumble towards or away from you. Just make sure you have them centered for the AF point to work. Then in post processing, you can crop a bit to off center the subject so it doesn't all look centered (can make an image a bit flat).
As for metering, if the lighting is very uneven, you probably have to set it to manual and then play with the settings that will get you enough shutter speed to freeze motion. If the lighting is more even, then you can use Av mode set for f2.8 and then increase ISO till you get enough shutter speed to freeze motion. Partial or center weighted metering may work out the best depending on how much of the image the subject covers in your shot.
For Canon, sports mode won't work as it's top ISO is limited to 400 on the 40D and maybe 800 on the 50D IIRC.
Yes, it's been a real challenge, and even more so it seems, because the gym is keeping the lighting turned off. So I'm sort of training in the worst of the worst. When I get into a gym that's actually running their lighting full blast during a competition, I won't know what to do with myself.
The focusing "thing" has really been a challenge. Just when I think I have it nailed, they'll move out of center, or if I have all the focusing points activated, they move enough that those points are "looking" at what's in the background. So I'm still getting a lot of shots where I say, "Hey, nice wall." Because that's what's really in focus.
Question: Regarding the advice to disable the focusing with the shutter button and have the button on the back do the focusing with my thumb.....why is that better than just holding down the shutter button half-way and then depressing the button fully to take the photo?
They were vaulting the other day, so I stood inside the side door of the gym which is nearer to the vault table. This is the back corner of the gym and the lighting was really bad. (I shot the boy on the rings from the same location) I used manual focus for the vault, and focused on the side of the vault table. Then I panned with gymnast as she'd run by, and hold the shutter down fully, taking about 5-6 shots in a burst. The results are "ok" but not great. And again, sort of a false indication because the gym will never be this dark during a competition.
A very fun thread to read through and watch the improvement in photos.
I have my two cents to add:
First penny is to see if a majority of your photos are shot at a certain focal length and then consider picking up a prime lens in that range (85 f/1.8 is good, 135 f/2L is great).
Second penny is to consider shooting in RAW and using DPP to adjust the white balance in all the photos at once (to improve the pics a lot but with only a minimum of fussing in post processing).
Have fun shooting the kids (especially yours) and improving your photo skills.
A very fun thread to read through and watch the improvement in photos.
I have my two cents to add:
First penny is to see if a majority of your photos are shot at a certain focal length and then consider picking up a prime lens in that range (85 f/1.8 is good, 135 f/2L is great).
Second penny is to consider shooting in RAW and using DPP to adjust the white balance in all the photos at once (to improve the pics a lot but with only a minimum of fussing in post processing).
Have fun shooting the kids (especially yours) and improving your photo skills.
I'm not sure (yet) if a prime, or a couple of primes, would be the right choice for me. I find myself zooming in and out a lot to get different views and different shots, and so far, my favorite lens is the (stupid) Tamron 28-300.....eventhough it's almost completely worthless in the gym. I find the 70-200/2.8 is kind of limiting. It doesn't go wide enough for shots on the closer equipment, and it doesn't go long enough for shots on the farthest out equipment. The range of the Tamron is perfect......now if could just be made in an F2.8!
I do shoot in RAW and then run the pictures through DPP, and then Noiseware Professional, and then before uploading them to photobucket, I size them down and convert to jpeg. But I haven't been doing anything with the white balance.....and I need to sit down and learn about that. I see how to change it in DPP, but so far, I haven't found a "color" that I like. But maybe it's just because I need to learn more about it.
I'm not sure (yet) if a prime, or a couple of primes, would be the right choice for me. I find myself zooming in and out a lot to get different views and different shots, and so far, my favorite lens is the (stupid) Tamron 28-300.....eventhough it's almost completely worthless in the gym. I find the 70-200/2.8 is kind of limiting. It doesn't go wide enough for shots on the closer equipment, and it doesn't go long enough for shots on the farthest out equipment. The range of the Tamron is perfect......now if could just be made in an F2.8!
I do shoot in RAW and then run the pictures through DPP, and then Noiseware Professional, and then before uploading them to photobucket, I size them down and convert to jpeg. But I haven't been doing anything with the white balance.....and I need to sit down and learn about that. I see how to change it in DPP, but so far, I haven't found a "color" that I like. But maybe it's just because I need to learn more about it.
Try playing with the "eyedropper". Find a grey or white and click around on it until you like the colors (especially the skin tones). Then go to the "register" and enter it as #1, 2, or 3" and use that for all the photos as a "custom WB" for that set.
Try playing with the "eyedropper". Find a grey or white and click around on it until you like the colors (especially the skin tones). Then go to the "register" and enter it as #1, 2, or 3" and use that for all the photos as a "custom WB" for that set.
Ah-ha! I was just doing that. Pretty cool! I tried a few different "methods" including just sliding the slider for color temp and watching what that did, setting it to what I thought looked correct, and then comparing that to what the original photo looked like. Love playing around with this stuff.
My wife bought me Photoshop 7 Elements for my bday last week, so I get to start playing around with that too.
If you are using the shutter button and all the AF points to focus in AI Servo mode, if the subject moves out of the focus point and you have the shutter button half pressed then the camera will try to refocus.
Letting the camera choose which AF point to use makes the AF a little slower as the computer has to decide. It's not a huge amount but can be noticed at times, especially in tricky lighting.
If you are focusing with the thumb, if the subject moves out of the AF point (recommend using only the center as it's the most sensitive) all you have to do is release the thumb so the AF does not focus on the wall. If the subject just moved to the side, then the subject will still be in focus when you take the shot as they should be about the same distance from you. It takes a day to really get used to solely AF'ing with the thumb but most who try it don't go back afterwards.
I think the subjects look soft not b/c of focusing but b/c they may be moving too fast and you may be getting motion blur. Look how the feet and the hands which are moving the fastest are blurred. I think that indicates motion blur and a way to fix that would be to have higher shutter speed, either with higher ISO and/or a faster lens.
As for the color issue, I suspect it's the fluorescent lights that are throwing your WB. Probably the simplest thing to get the WB close is to use a gray card at the event and take a shot and use that to set the Custom WB and then fine tune in DPP.
As for the lenses, if you like going from 28-300mm but a faster lens, then there is only one option, to carry two bodies, one with a 28-70mm f2.8 range and another like a Sigma 120-300mm f2.8. This would be a very expensive option though. If you are using the Tamron 28-300 b/c of versatility, I'd suggest trying only the 70-200mm f2.8 and going for either tight headshots if they are close or if they are far, using the 200mm end of that zoom and cropping a touch. Lastly, Tamron's AF is pretty bad, especially in tough lighting situations, so you aren't helping yourself here if you have the 70-200mm f2.8 lens that you can be using.
Sorry, I should be more clear about what lens I'm using and when/why.
I'm using the Canon 70-200/2.8 non-IS as my "real" lens. I'm using it 99.9% of the time. The only time I use that 28-300 Tamron is either to play around with it's reach (both close and far). For example, the bars are right up front in our gym, next to the main "pedestrian" walkway. So if thegirls are on bars, I'll put the Tamron on and just do close-ups or candids when they are not really moving. That allows me to have the slower shutter speed that that lens needs inside.
When I'm serious about getting shots....both action and other, I'm using the 70-200/2.8.
Regarding the focusing. Next time I practice (probably tomorrow) I'll go back to the center focus point and use my thumb only. And just to be clear about the function of that thumb button. Are you saing that: press it and whatever is on the center focus point will be in focus, and then let go of the thumb button and that focus distance is saved......so that if the subject moves off the center focus point, the subject will still be in the plane of focus? If so, do I need to "disable" the half-press focus function of the shutter button?
If you can better explain, that would be great.
Oh, about the blur in the photos. I think I was shooting at H1, so that's all the shutter speed I could get with the 70-200/2.8. As I've mentioned, the gym's lighting is artificially poor because they're not turning on all of their overhead lights....so these photos probably are not a good indicator of what it's going to really be like during an actual competion. But it does make for good practice sessions (IMO) because I'm learning to work in the worst possible light.
I think I've covered all your comments and I appreciate you taking the time to give me advice!
"Regarding the focusing. Next time I practice (probably tomorrow) I'll go back to the center focus point and use my thumb only. And just to be clear about the function of that thumb button. Are you saing that: press it and whatever is on the center focus point will be in focus, and then let go of the thumb button and that focus distance is saved......so that if the subject moves off the center focus point, the subject will still be in the plane of focus? If so, do I need to "disable" the half-press focus function of the shutter button?"
Yes, so you have to select the custom function that disables the shutter button from turning on the AF.
Custom Function IV-1: Shutter button / AF-ON button
0: Metering + AF start
1: Metering + AF start / AF stop
2: Metering start / Meter+AF start 3: AE lock / Metering + AF start (IIRC)
4: Metering + AF start / disable
Custom Function IV-1: Shutter button / AF-ON button
0: Metering + AF start
1: Metering + AF start / AF stop
2: Metering start / Meter+AF start 3: AE lock / Metering + AF start(IIRC)
4: Metering + AF start / disable
Okay, just made the change and then tried it out.....focused on the edge of the kitchen counter top from about 15' away, let go with my thumb, moved the camera sideways so the back wall of the kitchen was at center of focus, but the counter top edge was still visible and took the picture. Counter top stayed crisp, back wall of the kitchen was waaaaay out of focus. Cooooool I can't wait to give it a try tomorrow. I was getting a lot of shots, especially on bars, that were OOF because the girls would swing through the focus area and the camera would "miss" them. I'll let you know how it goes.
Just as Tee Why said, you will not want to switch back once you start using the thumb for your focus. Granted I am only using an Xsi right now, I started using this method about 6 months ago and LOVE it! Had fewer missed shots once I learned how to use it.
Went to the gym last night about 7 to get in an hour's worth of practice shooting. It was so dark in there, I didn't even take the camera out of the backpack. What a joke.
They've got a "practice" competition in-house this Friday, so it looks like that will also be a real practice competition shoot for me too. No pressure....of course.
Friday we had an "in-house" competition with the Level 4, 5, and 6 gals just to give them a chance to wear the new uniforms, get their hair dialed in, experience being judged(for the Level 4's), and get some "your in the hot seat" time under their belts before the real first meet in 2 weeks.
It was also my first chance to really shoot, for real, and I was invited by staff to come out onto the floor and follow the girls around. I guess that's respect you get from "the big white lens," eh?
This was also only the second "session" with me trying out the thumb-focus method.
I had the camera (Canon 50D with Canon 70-200/2.8) set in Apurature Priority at first, to see how it managed the lighting. I thought that might keep me from having to pay attention to the shutter speed, and watching the light meter inside the eye piece. I was also using Evaluative Metering and A-I Servo Mode. I also selected rapid continuous shooting mode....incase I wanted to "spray and pray" during a dismount or tumbling run, etc.
We started on bars, which has a tall white, long wall as a background. The results were terrible. As you may guess, the wall was getting metered properly and the girls on the bars were all dark. I set the camera to spot metering, got out of AV mode and into Manual Mode. Then I started getting some decent photos. I left the camera like that for the rest of the evening.
The gym lighting was really bad. Even when they turned on all the lights, it left dark spots that the girls would come in and out of. On the floor, especially, one minute the light would be "in front" of them, and their faces and fronts lit up, and the next minute, the light was behind and their front was dark. Really made me start to think about the recommendations to use Prime lenses that are in the f1.4 or f1.8 range. Those would have ruled the gym.
Before I get to the photos, I'll mention that 3 other parents brought their "big" cameras, so I got to compare toe-to-toe, what cameras and lenses were doing what. One family brought their Canon 1D MKII on a monopod, with an 80-200/2.8 Canon lens. A 10fps does that thing have a fast frame rate! I haven't seen their photos yet, but I'm sure they will be outstanding. The gal I've mentioned before with the Nikon D80 was really struggling to get any shots. The photos she's sent me over the weekend have been very dark, very grainy, and washed out, almost like screen captures from video. Another family with an even lower model of Nikon (2yrs old now) was really struggling. It tried to help set up the camera and the best I could make it do for them was in AV mode and it's frame rate was about 1 shot per second!. Another guy with an older lower end Canon just put it away, as it wasn't doing him any good.
So that's my story and here are the photos. These are reduced from hi-res RAW down to 900wide x whatever long, and Jpeg so they'd load faster. I've also run these through PP. Your CC very welcomed as usual.
I've got a couple of comments and questions now that you've seen the photos:
1) I'm having trouble maintaining focus using the thumb AF-ON method. In DPP, if click on the "view AF" to see where the focus points are (I had the center focus point turned on and the rest off), I've got the center focus point on their torso usually....except for Vault where I focused on the center of the vault table and then took my thumb off the button....but in some photos the center focus point is lit up red and other times it's black like the rest of the "off" focus points. So maybe I was forgetting to keep hitting the AF-ON button with my thumb before taking each shot?
2) I'm not sure I like the shots on beam where I stood out in line with the beam. I also think that wasn't a good place to stand with respect to the gymnasts and how they look down the beam and need to focus. I only did it with 2 girls to try it out, but I don't think I'll shoot like that again. Maybe with a huge tele lens it would be cool, if I could get back far enough.
3) I need to learn about setting the white balance so I don't have to play with it in PP.....but, it seems like it changes throughout the gym depending on location? Is it better to not worry about it and handle it in PP?
4) I wanted to try some shots of the girls charging down the vault runway at full speed, but I wasn't sure if the thumb AF-ON mode was best for that. What would be the best way to capture that high speed run, with them coming right at me? Manual focus on a spot and take the picture when they get there? Can I keep the thumb button held down and take shots at the same time?
5) If I really want to get out of the high ISO's, I'm going to need f1.8 lens...would you agree?
Not to hijack the thread too much here, but would someone mind helping me out? I'm trying to apply the focus method described here to a Nikon D90, and I can't seem to find the right options. It's a D90 with MB-D80 grip, so I need to make sure the AE-L/AF-L button on there does the same thing it does on the body (unless there's a good reason to have it do something else, i'm all ears!)
As for the OP, I loved reading this thread and watching you improve! I remember being here about this time last year, trying to get some much-needed help shooting a special football game. Luckily, since it's an annual game, I get another chance this fall to shoot again and this time I'm far more prepared. Anyway, loved seeing your pictures, can't wait to see some from the first full competition!
1) I'm having trouble maintaining focus using the thumb AF-ON method. In DPP, if click on the "view AF" to see where the focus points are (I had the center focus point turned on and the rest off), I've got the center focus point on their torso usually....except for Vault where I focused on the center of the vault table and then took my thumb off the button....but in some photos the center focus point is lit up red and other times it's black like the rest of the "off" focus points. So maybe I was forgetting to keep hitting the AF-ON button with my thumb before taking each shot?
1. Focusing using the thumb takes practice. Be patient. You are improving. You just have to be more proficient using it, and that takes time. AI Servo AF is the right mode to use, but you want to select all the AF points instead of just the center one. Aim the center point at your focus target and the surrounding points would be used for focus tracking (middle of page 85). Sometimes in the rush to catch a shot, I've forgotten to focus before pressing the shutter button.
2) I'm not sure I like the shots on beam where I stood out in line with the beam. I also think that wasn't a good place to stand with respect to the gymnasts and how they look down the beam and need to focus. I only did it with 2 girls to try it out, but I don't think I'll shoot like that again. Maybe with a huge tele lens it would be cool, if I could get back far enough.
2. Shooting inline with the balance beam gives a nice perspective for leap and scales, provided the subject is facing the camera. The drawback with the inline position is having the gymnast's back to the camera. Most of the time, I shoot balance beam from the side. The side position gives you coverage opportunity throughout the whole routine.
3) I need to learn about setting the white balance so I don't have to play with it in PP.....but, it seems like it changes throughout the gym depending on location? Is it better to not worry about it and handle it in PP?
3. As you can see, lighting is mixed and uneven within the gym. I suggest using custom white balance. Take the reading from the area (beam and floor) with the higher keeper percentage.
4) I wanted to try some shots of the girls charging down the vault runway at full speed, but I wasn't sure if the thumb AF-ON mode was best for that. What would be the best way to capture that high speed run, with them coming right at me? Manual focus on a spot and take the picture when they get there? Can I keep the thumb button held down and take shots at the same time?
4. To convey speed of a vault run, try shooting from the side and pan your camera with the gymnast. Another approach is to use burst shooting and stitch together the multiple exposures.
The beauty of using the AF-ON button is the focusing function is independent from the shutter release button so you can shoot and focus together or separately.
5) If I really want to get out of the high ISO's, I'm going to need f1.8 lens...would you agree?
5. Logically a faster lens would help lower the ISO, but there's a limit in reality. I have the 85mm f/1.8 lens, but the keeper rate is really low at f/2. Depth of field (DoF) at f/2 is so shallow that the face could be out of focus while the body is sharp. Don't be afraid to use high ISO to maintain sufficient shutter speed to freeze the action. Just look at how clean your last shot is at ISO 6400. Would you rather have a grainy but well focused and action-frozen image or a smooth but blurry image? The thing to keep in mind when using high ISO is not to under-expose, which tends to exaggerate the noise. You can also deal with the noise in post processing.
Vault and bars are the toughest events to shoot since they are very dynamic and short, hence the keeper rate is a lot lower compared to beam and floor. Just keep shooting and have fun.
Cuong
"She Was a Little Taste of Heaven – And a One-Way Ticket to Hell!" - Max Phillips
I completely forgot about the Dof factor in going to a sub "2" F stop. I already notice it just with the 2.8....in that the gymnast, or part of the gymnast will be OOF, when another part is. Or if I shoot a group shot where they are angled away from me, some girls will be in focus, and then the rest OOF.
I like you're suggestion of shooting on the over exposed side, in order to help with the noise levels. It's all a give and take right now. If I shoot over expose, I'd probably have a slightly "too long" shutter speed, and wouldn't be stopping motion very well. But if I stop motion, I'll probably be slightly under exposed and in PP, when I use either the "brightness" slider or the "auto lighting optimizer" functions in DPP I start to get some pretty visible noise. Sometimes the noise gets taken care of pretty easily and other times, the pictures start to get sort of blochy...at least up close on the computer screen (I haven't tried to start printing some of these yet.
I'll try using all the focus points next time (maybe at their practice today) and see what that does. My concern with doing it that was was that the other focus points would make the AF start bouncing between gymnast and what's-behind-gymnast.
I agree that shooting the beam from the side is a better location. I won't always have an end view, so I thought I'd try it out once, since it was a practice for them and for me. But as soon as I stepped out and the gymnast was looking at me, I thought, "This isn't cool, she's staring at the big glass lens(or could be) and she's not focused on the end of the beam, or her routine, etc."
I like your compilation of the vault routine. I used to do that all the time with my Panasonic Lumix FX9 digital point-and-shoot, when I had a photo processing program that I'd gotten very good with. Had some great shots of her doing everything from skiing, to jumping off a high dive. They're a lot of fun to make, and even more fun to look at. Hopefully I'll get good with Photoshop Elements 7 and be able to start doing them again.
I'll try using all the focus points next time (maybe at their practice today) and see what that does. My concern with doing it that was was that the other focus points would make the AF start bouncing between gymnast and what's-behind-gymnast.
When you select all AF points in the AI Servo mode, the center point is used to lock focus. This means you always use the center point to acquire focus on your target. The surrounding focus points are used automatically by the camera to help maintain focus if the subject moves away from the center point. This only works in AI Servo mode. Switching to a different AF mode negates what I just mentioned.
You can test this out at home. Use the center focus point to lock focus on any object. While still holding down the AF-ON button, move your camera so that the center focus point is no longer on the object. Notice that as long as one of the surrounding focus points is on the object, the same focus is maintained. Once you release the AF-ON button, focus tracking ceases. Now if you press the AF-ON again, focus would be acquired for whatever's currently covered by center focus point.
Cuong
"She Was a Little Taste of Heaven – And a One-Way Ticket to Hell!" - Max Phillips
You can test this out at home. Use the center focus point to lock focus on any object. While still holding down the AF-ON button, move your camera so that the center focus point is no longer on the object. Notice that as long as one of the surrounding focus points is on the object, the same focus is maintained. Once you release the AF-ON button, focus tracking ceases. Now if you press the AF-ON again, focus would be acquired for whatever's currently covered by center focus point.
Cuong
Funny you should suggest that. Right after reading your last post, I pulled out the camera and started to that.....then got sidetracked by someone coming over and the phone. So I'm going to play with it right now, and then go do some shooting at the gym in a couple hours.
Okay, just back from the gym and I'm not liking the results of having all the focus points turned on.
The shot below is from a burst of 8 shots where I just had my daughter swing back and forth on bars. When I select "view AF" in DPP, the center focus point is on her torso in every shot, and at least one other focus point on her legs or arms depending on her position. But as you can see, the camera searched out the wall and focused on that.
ISO2500 1/400th
I started the burst by getting the center focus on her, so what's the deal?
Also, this shot has had no PP, I just reduced it to 900 by whatever so it fit here and loaded fast.
When I shoot basketball and volleyball, I only use the center focus point whether I am shooting in AI Servo or One Shot for the reason that you have demonstrated: the focus grabs the wall or bleacher behind the subject way too often.
I prefer One Shot on something like this because I will shoot in one spot, such as at the top of the bar when she reaches it. I would just lock it there and then wait for her to get there again to shoot. So in volleyball, I would focus on the far hitter. Then I would wait for the ball to be set to her and take the shot, rather than chasing the ball around to different players. BTW, I do not use thumb lock. I use the shutter button cuz I can release and relock without needing to coordinate two buttons. Preferred ISO on my 40D is 1600. 3200 on occasion when lighting is really bad.
I was reading your suggestions over on the VBall shooting thread too. Great info!
I'm liking the thumb AF-ON because I can "park" the camera at one focus point, and take as many photos at that distance as I like. I'm seeing where it can be a handy feature for gymnastics. Before, I was using manual focus mode to do the same thing.
I've been playing with taking a single shot, waiting for gymnast to get there, or for their motion to peak, etc. and that's working good too. But sometimes I'm liking the ability to get a burst and wind up with a handful of good shots, rather than just taking a chance that I got just "the one."
So basically, I'm playing with all the modes I can get my hands on at the momment. I don't think I'm going to like the "all focus points on" trick though......but I'm going to try it a few more times and see what happens. I was testing it out here at home by focusing on a picture on the wall and then moving the camera to "look" at a much close item on the wall. I could tell the AI Servo was tracking, and it would try to stay on the picture as long as a focus point was on the picture, but there were times when the camera would start to hunt back and forth for which subject to really focus on. So I knew it might be a problem at the gym.
Regarding your ISO settings, the 50D seems a little better suited for low light. I just had a 40D and upgrading to the 50D after comparing them in a camera store. The 40 wanted to be way up in the range, as compared to the 50D, in a side-by-side type comparison, taking the same photo. I'm not happy about the 15.5megapixel though. I think it's too much.......it fills up memory cards and I think it slows the camera down. It think Canon should have made it 10mp and given it a faster burst rate, sort of like the 1D MKIII.
I like how you are experimenting and improving. I just reviewed your photos in this thread #79 and am bothered by thinking that they should be a little better with all that you are doing. The only sharp one is the 3rd one where it looks like the girl is stationary.
Have you checked your focus in these gyms? By this, I mean try shooting a few of the apparatus before the meet and see how sharp they are. This gives you a stationary target and ensures that your technique is good. Or shoot a few people sitting down and see how your results are.
Also, consider using exposure compensation depending on the background and their clothing colors. White is tough because you will underexpose and have to boost the brightness in PP, which increases the noise. So maybe go +1/2 stop on a few shots and see if the end result is improved.
I just reviewed your photos in this thread #79 and am bothered by thinking that they should be a little better with all that you are doing. The only sharp one is the 3rd one where it looks like the girl is stationary.
Have you checked your focus in these gyms?
I'm bothered by it too. If you look at each photo, doesn't it seem like the focus is a little better just behind the subject? I'm wondering if maybe there's a problem with the lens? I felt like the 40D did just about the same.
I'll spend some time tomorrow taking "stills" outside, inside and in the gym and see what I get. Maybe I'm moving the camera as I depress the shutter button. I'll try some with and without the monopod and see if there's a difference there too.
Okay, just back from the gym and I'm not liking the results of having all the focus points turned on.
The shot below is from a burst of 8 shots where I just had my daughter swing back and forth on bars. When I select "view AF" in DPP, the center focus point is on her torso in every shot, and at least one other focus point on her legs or arms depending on her position. But as you can see, the camera searched out the wall and focused on that.
ISO2500 1/400th
I started the burst by getting the center focus on her, so what's the deal?
Also, this shot has had no PP, I just reduced it to 900 by whatever so it fit here and loaded fast.
Well, focus lock definitely wasn't on the girl in this one. I suggest a retry. Here's why I prefer using all AF points with AI Servo, I still have to use the center point to lock focus but now I also gain the focus tracking provided by the surrounding points, giving me a better chance of maintaining focus on a moving subject. The problem I've run into, similar to your situation, is the initial focus lock wasn't on the desired target (to err is human, and that we are).
Regarding image sharpness issue, you might want to verify your lens/camera AF accuracy as rainbow suggested. Your 50D has the AF microadjustment if you need it. Scott Quier demonstrates how to do the microadjustment here.
Cuong
"She Was a Little Taste of Heaven – And a One-Way Ticket to Hell!" - Max Phillips
Comments
Canon 7D... Canon 70-200/2.8L IS... Canon 28-70/2.8L... Canon 135/f2L... Canon 85/1.8... Canon 50/1.4... Canon 28/1.8
Cuong
Couldn't pass up a deal on the local Craigslist for a 50D. I'm much happier with the results I'm getting now. Our first Meet is in Santa Cruz, Sept. 11-13 so time to get back to the gym and start honing my skills.
Canon 7D... Canon 70-200/2.8L IS... Canon 28-70/2.8L... Canon 135/f2L... Canon 85/1.8... Canon 50/1.4... Canon 28/1.8
Can we see some pictures you got with the 50D?
Thanks,
Charles,
Aperture Focus Photography
http://aperturefocus.com
This is from the first set of photos I took with it, last Friday. Of course the real "proof" in both camera, and most importantly, my skill, is going to be in the action shots. I'll post some of those in a bit too. Our gym is still a real struggle to shoot in because they continue to leave the lights either off, or only light half of the lights.
Here's one of the better action shots:
Canon 7D... Canon 70-200/2.8L IS... Canon 28-70/2.8L... Canon 135/f2L... Canon 85/1.8... Canon 50/1.4... Canon 28/1.8
The big problem is that you picked a very difficult area to learn photography. Low light that is uneven and fast moving subjects.
I personally would disable the AF with the shutter release button so you only focus with the thumb as you are doing. That way, you can just use the most sensitive center AF point and you can preset your focus point and let the subject come into focus or use AI Servo with the thumb if you want to follow them as they tumble towards or away from you. Just make sure you have them centered for the AF point to work. Then in post processing, you can crop a bit to off center the subject so it doesn't all look centered (can make an image a bit flat).
As for metering, if the lighting is very uneven, you probably have to set it to manual and then play with the settings that will get you enough shutter speed to freeze motion. If the lighting is more even, then you can use Av mode set for f2.8 and then increase ISO till you get enough shutter speed to freeze motion. Partial or center weighted metering may work out the best depending on how much of the image the subject covers in your shot.
For Canon, sports mode won't work as it's top ISO is limited to 400 on the 40D and maybe 800 on the 50D IIRC.
Yes, it's been a real challenge, and even more so it seems, because the gym is keeping the lighting turned off. So I'm sort of training in the worst of the worst. When I get into a gym that's actually running their lighting full blast during a competition, I won't know what to do with myself.
The focusing "thing" has really been a challenge. Just when I think I have it nailed, they'll move out of center, or if I have all the focusing points activated, they move enough that those points are "looking" at what's in the background. So I'm still getting a lot of shots where I say, "Hey, nice wall." Because that's what's really in focus.
Question: Regarding the advice to disable the focusing with the shutter button and have the button on the back do the focusing with my thumb.....why is that better than just holding down the shutter button half-way and then depressing the button fully to take the photo?
They were vaulting the other day, so I stood inside the side door of the gym which is nearer to the vault table. This is the back corner of the gym and the lighting was really bad. (I shot the boy on the rings from the same location) I used manual focus for the vault, and focused on the side of the vault table. Then I panned with gymnast as she'd run by, and hold the shutter down fully, taking about 5-6 shots in a burst. The results are "ok" but not great. And again, sort of a false indication because the gym will never be this dark during a competition.
My daughter:
Canon 7D... Canon 70-200/2.8L IS... Canon 28-70/2.8L... Canon 135/f2L... Canon 85/1.8... Canon 50/1.4... Canon 28/1.8
I have my two cents to add:
First penny is to see if a majority of your photos are shot at a certain focal length and then consider picking up a prime lens in that range (85 f/1.8 is good, 135 f/2L is great).
Second penny is to consider shooting in RAW and using DPP to adjust the white balance in all the photos at once (to improve the pics a lot but with only a minimum of fussing in post processing).
Have fun shooting the kids (especially yours) and improving your photo skills.
I'm not sure (yet) if a prime, or a couple of primes, would be the right choice for me. I find myself zooming in and out a lot to get different views and different shots, and so far, my favorite lens is the (stupid) Tamron 28-300.....eventhough it's almost completely worthless in the gym. I find the 70-200/2.8 is kind of limiting. It doesn't go wide enough for shots on the closer equipment, and it doesn't go long enough for shots on the farthest out equipment. The range of the Tamron is perfect......now if could just be made in an F2.8!
I do shoot in RAW and then run the pictures through DPP, and then Noiseware Professional, and then before uploading them to photobucket, I size them down and convert to jpeg. But I haven't been doing anything with the white balance.....and I need to sit down and learn about that. I see how to change it in DPP, but so far, I haven't found a "color" that I like. But maybe it's just because I need to learn more about it.
Canon 7D... Canon 70-200/2.8L IS... Canon 28-70/2.8L... Canon 135/f2L... Canon 85/1.8... Canon 50/1.4... Canon 28/1.8
Try playing with the "eyedropper". Find a grey or white and click around on it until you like the colors (especially the skin tones). Then go to the "register" and enter it as #1, 2, or 3" and use that for all the photos as a "custom WB" for that set.
Ah-ha! I was just doing that. Pretty cool! I tried a few different "methods" including just sliding the slider for color temp and watching what that did, setting it to what I thought looked correct, and then comparing that to what the original photo looked like. Love playing around with this stuff.
My wife bought me Photoshop 7 Elements for my bday last week, so I get to start playing around with that too.
Canon 7D... Canon 70-200/2.8L IS... Canon 28-70/2.8L... Canon 135/f2L... Canon 85/1.8... Canon 50/1.4... Canon 28/1.8
Letting the camera choose which AF point to use makes the AF a little slower as the computer has to decide. It's not a huge amount but can be noticed at times, especially in tricky lighting.
If you are focusing with the thumb, if the subject moves out of the AF point (recommend using only the center as it's the most sensitive) all you have to do is release the thumb so the AF does not focus on the wall. If the subject just moved to the side, then the subject will still be in focus when you take the shot as they should be about the same distance from you. It takes a day to really get used to solely AF'ing with the thumb but most who try it don't go back afterwards.
I think the subjects look soft not b/c of focusing but b/c they may be moving too fast and you may be getting motion blur. Look how the feet and the hands which are moving the fastest are blurred. I think that indicates motion blur and a way to fix that would be to have higher shutter speed, either with higher ISO and/or a faster lens.
As for the color issue, I suspect it's the fluorescent lights that are throwing your WB. Probably the simplest thing to get the WB close is to use a gray card at the event and take a shot and use that to set the Custom WB and then fine tune in DPP.
As for the lenses, if you like going from 28-300mm but a faster lens, then there is only one option, to carry two bodies, one with a 28-70mm f2.8 range and another like a Sigma 120-300mm f2.8. This would be a very expensive option though. If you are using the Tamron 28-300 b/c of versatility, I'd suggest trying only the 70-200mm f2.8 and going for either tight headshots if they are close or if they are far, using the 200mm end of that zoom and cropping a touch. Lastly, Tamron's AF is pretty bad, especially in tough lighting situations, so you aren't helping yourself here if you have the 70-200mm f2.8 lens that you can be using.
I'm using the Canon 70-200/2.8 non-IS as my "real" lens. I'm using it 99.9% of the time. The only time I use that 28-300 Tamron is either to play around with it's reach (both close and far). For example, the bars are right up front in our gym, next to the main "pedestrian" walkway. So if thegirls are on bars, I'll put the Tamron on and just do close-ups or candids when they are not really moving. That allows me to have the slower shutter speed that that lens needs inside.
When I'm serious about getting shots....both action and other, I'm using the 70-200/2.8.
Regarding the focusing. Next time I practice (probably tomorrow) I'll go back to the center focus point and use my thumb only. And just to be clear about the function of that thumb button. Are you saing that: press it and whatever is on the center focus point will be in focus, and then let go of the thumb button and that focus distance is saved......so that if the subject moves off the center focus point, the subject will still be in the plane of focus? If so, do I need to "disable" the half-press focus function of the shutter button?
If you can better explain, that would be great.
Oh, about the blur in the photos. I think I was shooting at H1, so that's all the shutter speed I could get with the 70-200/2.8. As I've mentioned, the gym's lighting is artificially poor because they're not turning on all of their overhead lights....so these photos probably are not a good indicator of what it's going to really be like during an actual competion. But it does make for good practice sessions (IMO) because I'm learning to work in the worst possible light.
I think I've covered all your comments and I appreciate you taking the time to give me advice!
Canon 7D... Canon 70-200/2.8L IS... Canon 28-70/2.8L... Canon 135/f2L... Canon 85/1.8... Canon 50/1.4... Canon 28/1.8
Yes, so you have to select the custom function that disables the shutter button from turning on the AF.
Custom Function IV-1: Shutter button / AF-ON button
0: Metering + AF start
1: Metering + AF start / AF stop
2: Metering start / Meter+AF start
3: AE lock / Metering + AF start (IIRC)
4: Metering + AF start / disable
Okay, just made the change and then tried it out.....focused on the edge of the kitchen counter top from about 15' away, let go with my thumb, moved the camera sideways so the back wall of the kitchen was at center of focus, but the counter top edge was still visible and took the picture. Counter top stayed crisp, back wall of the kitchen was waaaaay out of focus. Cooooool
Canon 7D... Canon 70-200/2.8L IS... Canon 28-70/2.8L... Canon 135/f2L... Canon 85/1.8... Canon 50/1.4... Canon 28/1.8
Went to the gym last night about 7 to get in an hour's worth of practice shooting. It was so dark in there, I didn't even take the camera out of the backpack. What a joke.
They've got a "practice" competition in-house this Friday, so it looks like that will also be a real practice competition shoot for me too. No pressure....of course.
Canon 7D... Canon 70-200/2.8L IS... Canon 28-70/2.8L... Canon 135/f2L... Canon 85/1.8... Canon 50/1.4... Canon 28/1.8
It was also my first chance to really shoot, for real, and I was invited by staff to come out onto the floor and follow the girls around. I guess that's respect you get from "the big white lens," eh?
This was also only the second "session" with me trying out the thumb-focus method.
I had the camera (Canon 50D with Canon 70-200/2.8) set in Apurature Priority at first, to see how it managed the lighting. I thought that might keep me from having to pay attention to the shutter speed, and watching the light meter inside the eye piece. I was also using Evaluative Metering and A-I Servo Mode. I also selected rapid continuous shooting mode....incase I wanted to "spray and pray" during a dismount or tumbling run, etc.
We started on bars, which has a tall white, long wall as a background. The results were terrible. As you may guess, the wall was getting metered properly and the girls on the bars were all dark. I set the camera to spot metering, got out of AV mode and into Manual Mode. Then I started getting some decent photos. I left the camera like that for the rest of the evening.
The gym lighting was really bad. Even when they turned on all the lights, it left dark spots that the girls would come in and out of. On the floor, especially, one minute the light would be "in front" of them, and their faces and fronts lit up, and the next minute, the light was behind and their front was dark. Really made me start to think about the recommendations to use Prime lenses that are in the f1.4 or f1.8 range. Those would have ruled the gym.
Before I get to the photos, I'll mention that 3 other parents brought their "big" cameras, so I got to compare toe-to-toe, what cameras and lenses were doing what. One family brought their Canon 1D MKII on a monopod, with an 80-200/2.8 Canon lens. A 10fps does that thing have a fast frame rate! I haven't seen their photos yet, but I'm sure they will be outstanding. The gal I've mentioned before with the Nikon D80 was really struggling to get any shots. The photos she's sent me over the weekend have been very dark, very grainy, and washed out, almost like screen captures from video. Another family with an even lower model of Nikon (2yrs old now) was really struggling. It tried to help set up the camera and the best I could make it do for them was in AV mode and it's frame rate was about 1 shot per second!. Another guy with an older lower end Canon just put it away, as it wasn't doing him any good.
So that's my story and here are the photos. These are reduced from hi-res RAW down to 900wide x whatever long, and Jpeg so they'd load faster. I've also run these through PP. Your CC very welcomed as usual.
ISO6400 1/512th
ISO2500 1/395th
ISO2500 1/512th
ISO2500 1/166th
ISO2500 1/512th
ISO2500 1/395th
ISO2500 1/512th
ISO2500 1/512th
ISO6400 1/395th
Canon 7D... Canon 70-200/2.8L IS... Canon 28-70/2.8L... Canon 135/f2L... Canon 85/1.8... Canon 50/1.4... Canon 28/1.8
1) I'm having trouble maintaining focus using the thumb AF-ON method. In DPP, if click on the "view AF" to see where the focus points are (I had the center focus point turned on and the rest off), I've got the center focus point on their torso usually....except for Vault where I focused on the center of the vault table and then took my thumb off the button....but in some photos the center focus point is lit up red and other times it's black like the rest of the "off" focus points. So maybe I was forgetting to keep hitting the AF-ON button with my thumb before taking each shot?
2) I'm not sure I like the shots on beam where I stood out in line with the beam. I also think that wasn't a good place to stand with respect to the gymnasts and how they look down the beam and need to focus. I only did it with 2 girls to try it out, but I don't think I'll shoot like that again. Maybe with a huge tele lens it would be cool, if I could get back far enough.
3) I need to learn about setting the white balance so I don't have to play with it in PP.....but, it seems like it changes throughout the gym depending on location? Is it better to not worry about it and handle it in PP?
4) I wanted to try some shots of the girls charging down the vault runway at full speed, but I wasn't sure if the thumb AF-ON mode was best for that. What would be the best way to capture that high speed run, with them coming right at me? Manual focus on a spot and take the picture when they get there? Can I keep the thumb button held down and take shots at the same time?
5) If I really want to get out of the high ISO's, I'm going to need f1.8 lens...would you agree?
Okay, enough rambling.
Canon 7D... Canon 70-200/2.8L IS... Canon 28-70/2.8L... Canon 135/f2L... Canon 85/1.8... Canon 50/1.4... Canon 28/1.8
As for the OP, I loved reading this thread and watching you improve! I remember being here about this time last year, trying to get some much-needed help shooting a special football game. Luckily, since it's an annual game, I get another chance this fall to shoot again and this time I'm far more prepared. Anyway, loved seeing your pictures, can't wait to see some from the first full competition!
~Nick
Sigma 18-50 f/2.8, 70-200 f/2.8
Nikkor 55-200mm f/4-5.6, 50mm f/1.8
2. Shooting inline with the balance beam gives a nice perspective for leap and scales, provided the subject is facing the camera. The drawback with the inline position is having the gymnast's back to the camera. Most of the time, I shoot balance beam from the side. The side position gives you coverage opportunity throughout the whole routine.
3. As you can see, lighting is mixed and uneven within the gym. I suggest using custom white balance. Take the reading from the area (beam and floor) with the higher keeper percentage.
4. To convey speed of a vault run, try shooting from the side and pan your camera with the gymnast. Another approach is to use burst shooting and stitch together the multiple exposures.
The beauty of using the AF-ON button is the focusing function is independent from the shutter release button so you can shoot and focus together or separately.
5. Logically a faster lens would help lower the ISO, but there's a limit in reality. I have the 85mm f/1.8 lens, but the keeper rate is really low at f/2. Depth of field (DoF) at f/2 is so shallow that the face could be out of focus while the body is sharp. Don't be afraid to use high ISO to maintain sufficient shutter speed to freeze the action. Just look at how clean your last shot is at ISO 6400. Would you rather have a grainy but well focused and action-frozen image or a smooth but blurry image? The thing to keep in mind when using high ISO is not to under-expose, which tends to exaggerate the noise. You can also deal with the noise in post processing.
Vault and bars are the toughest events to shoot since they are very dynamic and short, hence the keeper rate is a lot lower compared to beam and floor. Just keep shooting and have fun.
Cuong
I completely forgot about the Dof factor in going to a sub "2" F stop. I already notice it just with the 2.8....in that the gymnast, or part of the gymnast will be OOF, when another part is. Or if I shoot a group shot where they are angled away from me, some girls will be in focus, and then the rest OOF.
I like you're suggestion of shooting on the over exposed side, in order to help with the noise levels. It's all a give and take right now. If I shoot over expose, I'd probably have a slightly "too long" shutter speed, and wouldn't be stopping motion very well. But if I stop motion, I'll probably be slightly under exposed and in PP, when I use either the "brightness" slider or the "auto lighting optimizer" functions in DPP I start to get some pretty visible noise. Sometimes the noise gets taken care of pretty easily and other times, the pictures start to get sort of blochy...at least up close on the computer screen (I haven't tried to start printing some of these yet.
I'll try using all the focus points next time (maybe at their practice today) and see what that does. My concern with doing it that was was that the other focus points would make the AF start bouncing between gymnast and what's-behind-gymnast.
I agree that shooting the beam from the side is a better location. I won't always have an end view, so I thought I'd try it out once, since it was a practice for them and for me. But as soon as I stepped out and the gymnast was looking at me, I thought, "This isn't cool, she's staring at the big glass lens(or could be) and she's not focused on the end of the beam, or her routine, etc."
I like your compilation of the vault routine. I used to do that all the time with my Panasonic Lumix FX9 digital point-and-shoot, when I had a photo processing program that I'd gotten very good with. Had some great shots of her doing everything from skiing, to jumping off a high dive. They're a lot of fun to make, and even more fun to look at. Hopefully I'll get good with Photoshop Elements 7 and be able to start doing them again.
Canon 7D... Canon 70-200/2.8L IS... Canon 28-70/2.8L... Canon 135/f2L... Canon 85/1.8... Canon 50/1.4... Canon 28/1.8
When you select all AF points in the AI Servo mode, the center point is used to lock focus. This means you always use the center point to acquire focus on your target. The surrounding focus points are used automatically by the camera to help maintain focus if the subject moves away from the center point. This only works in AI Servo mode. Switching to a different AF mode negates what I just mentioned.
You can test this out at home. Use the center focus point to lock focus on any object. While still holding down the AF-ON button, move your camera so that the center focus point is no longer on the object. Notice that as long as one of the surrounding focus points is on the object, the same focus is maintained. Once you release the AF-ON button, focus tracking ceases. Now if you press the AF-ON again, focus would be acquired for whatever's currently covered by center focus point.
Cuong
Funny you should suggest that. Right after reading your last post, I pulled out the camera and started to that.....then got sidetracked by someone coming over and the phone. So I'm going to play with it right now, and then go do some shooting at the gym in a couple hours.
Thanks again for you patients and time!
Canon 7D... Canon 70-200/2.8L IS... Canon 28-70/2.8L... Canon 135/f2L... Canon 85/1.8... Canon 50/1.4... Canon 28/1.8
The shot below is from a burst of 8 shots where I just had my daughter swing back and forth on bars. When I select "view AF" in DPP, the center focus point is on her torso in every shot, and at least one other focus point on her legs or arms depending on her position. But as you can see, the camera searched out the wall and focused on that.
ISO2500 1/400th
I started the burst by getting the center focus on her, so what's the deal?
Also, this shot has had no PP, I just reduced it to 900 by whatever so it fit here and loaded fast.
Canon 7D... Canon 70-200/2.8L IS... Canon 28-70/2.8L... Canon 135/f2L... Canon 85/1.8... Canon 50/1.4... Canon 28/1.8
I prefer One Shot on something like this because I will shoot in one spot, such as at the top of the bar when she reaches it. I would just lock it there and then wait for her to get there again to shoot. So in volleyball, I would focus on the far hitter. Then I would wait for the ball to be set to her and take the shot, rather than chasing the ball around to different players. BTW, I do not use thumb lock. I use the shutter button cuz I can release and relock without needing to coordinate two buttons. Preferred ISO on my 40D is 1600. 3200 on occasion when lighting is really bad.
I was reading your suggestions over on the VBall shooting thread too. Great info!
I'm liking the thumb AF-ON because I can "park" the camera at one focus point, and take as many photos at that distance as I like. I'm seeing where it can be a handy feature for gymnastics. Before, I was using manual focus mode to do the same thing.
I've been playing with taking a single shot, waiting for gymnast to get there, or for their motion to peak, etc. and that's working good too. But sometimes I'm liking the ability to get a burst and wind up with a handful of good shots, rather than just taking a chance that I got just "the one."
So basically, I'm playing with all the modes I can get my hands on at the momment. I don't think I'm going to like the "all focus points on" trick though......but I'm going to try it a few more times and see what happens. I was testing it out here at home by focusing on a picture on the wall and then moving the camera to "look" at a much close item on the wall. I could tell the AI Servo was tracking, and it would try to stay on the picture as long as a focus point was on the picture, but there were times when the camera would start to hunt back and forth for which subject to really focus on. So I knew it might be a problem at the gym.
Regarding your ISO settings, the 50D seems a little better suited for low light. I just had a 40D and upgrading to the 50D after comparing them in a camera store. The 40 wanted to be way up in the range, as compared to the 50D, in a side-by-side type comparison, taking the same photo. I'm not happy about the 15.5megapixel though. I think it's too much.......it fills up memory cards and I think it slows the camera down. It think Canon should have made it 10mp and given it a faster burst rate, sort of like the 1D MKIII.
Canon 7D... Canon 70-200/2.8L IS... Canon 28-70/2.8L... Canon 135/f2L... Canon 85/1.8... Canon 50/1.4... Canon 28/1.8
Have you checked your focus in these gyms? By this, I mean try shooting a few of the apparatus before the meet and see how sharp they are. This gives you a stationary target and ensures that your technique is good. Or shoot a few people sitting down and see how your results are.
Also, consider using exposure compensation depending on the background and their clothing colors. White is tough because you will underexpose and have to boost the brightness in PP, which increases the noise. So maybe go +1/2 stop on a few shots and see if the end result is improved.
Good luck! Keep posting your results.
I'm bothered by it too. If you look at each photo, doesn't it seem like the focus is a little better just behind the subject? I'm wondering if maybe there's a problem with the lens? I felt like the 40D did just about the same.
I'll spend some time tomorrow taking "stills" outside, inside and in the gym and see what I get. Maybe I'm moving the camera as I depress the shutter button. I'll try some with and without the monopod and see if there's a difference there too.
Canon 7D... Canon 70-200/2.8L IS... Canon 28-70/2.8L... Canon 135/f2L... Canon 85/1.8... Canon 50/1.4... Canon 28/1.8
Regarding image sharpness issue, you might want to verify your lens/camera AF accuracy as rainbow suggested. Your 50D has the AF microadjustment if you need it. Scott Quier demonstrates how to do the microadjustment here.
Cuong