I'm considering upgrading from a Power to a Pro account. One issue that has been mentioned several times in this thread but not fully explained is the greater cost of shipping via SmugMug vs. Bay Point direct. I'm curious why the difference (packaging, stronger return guarantee, etc.) and is this pointed out up front like the 15% SM cut? Thanks!
I'm considering upgrading from a Power to a Pro account. One issue that has been mentioned several times in this thread but not fully explained is the greater cost of shipping via SmugMug vs. Bay Point direct. I'm curious why the difference (packaging, stronger return guarantee, etc.) and is this pointed out up front like the 15% SM cut? Thanks!
Yeah, that's a bummer, and we're working on new shipping rates for 2011. Stay tuned.
Have to agree with Samir and Gregger, if you want to hear another person chime in, Josh. I find the 15% and yearly fee a bargain, especially with all the new goodies rolled out without me paying for the development. I don't have to worry about whether new features are going to work with the old features, and that if there's a bug that my presumably-solo web developer has to make time to get it fixed. For higher quality products beyond prints I think my markup is 3x, though it's less on some of the merchandise. My event sales are in the low five figures and customers average a bit over 3 products per order--I have a lot of varying things on my plate beyond photo sales, so the time savings really matters. In the last year, I've really enjoyed smuggy's addition of packages, coupons and event management. The thought of what it would have taken to conceptualize that let alone melding it with the current gallery/cart offering makes my head hurt. Rah, smuggy!
I'm curious why the difference (packaging, stronger return guarantee, etc.) and is this pointed out up front like the 15% SM cut? Thanks!
I'm curious too, but I have a pretty good guess. When you order from Bay, that's just you and them. You get them the original, they print it and send it to you billing you for the shipping. Easy Peasy.
Now, when SM sends them the original and then Bay uses SM's account for the shipping or bills SM the shipping to pass onto the customer, that adds administrative overhead. And that has to be covered somehow. So that's where I think it's coming from.
The $150/yr is a bargain for the web site and hosting (this is coming from a guy that owns a web development company (http://www.turtlehut.com). As for the 15% commission, they have to process the credit card and deal with customer service. I think the 15% is fair. I think you need to re-assess your pricing and margins and do a better job of understanding the costs of doing business and the value of the product you are selling.
Hi, I'm new to Smugmug, but I absolutely love it! I've been a graphic artist and corporate branding specialist for over 10 years. Smugmug has allowed me to go back to doing what I love and let them do the shipping, printing, book-keeping,etc. Charging 15% for this huge undertaking is priceless to me. I think their prices are reasonable for what they offer. I see a few people have complained about profit and the amount they are making. As a rule of thumb for me, I charge 3x the default price. If I've had to do a requested retouch price on an image, then I just tack on my fee. So far my customers haven't complained at all.
On a side note I have had tons of compliments about the UI for the shopping cart and photo galleries!
Nicest, best customer service on the planet, and that's priceless. clap
And decent folks hanging out on this forum, too. Tried the others lately? There's some downright wierdness and nastyness out there; here, not as much.
Oh yeah!
I've been with SM a few years now and absolutely love it. I've watched other photogs in my area manage their own ordering, packaging, shipping, delivery etc. - working until the wee hours to do all of that admin and THEN get up and go out and shoot.
I do my shoots, point my clients to their galleries and away we go. My time is spent shooting, editing and soliciting new business.
My ONLY beef about SM is that there is no lab in Canada which makes shipping and getting through the border a PITA - but even with THAT the quality of the prints my clients received is worth it.
clap for SM! (and I haven't even mentioned the technical aspects of bandwidth etc.)
SMUGMUG needs to work on getting images to show up better in google searches!!!!
Hi Shawn, I've answered your other post, and also your email to the help desk. We are constantly work on Google Image Search. As to Google Search, and the search results you can get on SmugMug, we're amazingly high. Go search for "Andy Williams" (I have some stiff competition from the famous singer). I'm on Page one. and this is because I follow all the advice we give here http://smugmug.com/help/search-engines
Good search results come from following the basics that we stress, hard work by you, hard work by SmugMug. We'll continue to work on getting SmugMug images found in Google Image Search.
They also need to work on providing a friendlier forum without tyrant moderators that delete posts just because the post states a fact that they don't like or agree with!
David Rosenthal has already emailed you about this.
Google search works great in web search but it is completely useless
searching for images and getting anything from Smug to show up. Testing,
I've searched for rare birds knowing there would be very few photos on the
web, none of mine showed. All my birds are captioned and keyworded. If I
search Smugmug they readily show up but not on Google images.
I've always been a fan of Smugmug but I have to admit that I'm kind of feeling betrayed right now.
Shouldn't SM publish and make transparent that they do not only charge 15% of the pros profit but also a good amount of the prints net price?
I take this pretty serious. I'm not talking about high print prices but about trust between Smugmug and pros.
Smugmug, please tell me that this has been a mistake and that pros will order at cost again (and not at higher prices than the average hobby shooter). I really want to believe and trust you guys and I would hate to cancel my account because of this.
I've always been a fan of Smugmug but I have to admit that I'm kind of feeling betrayed right now.
I'm sorry you feel betrayed. There's no intention of that, anywhere.
Shouldn't SM publish and make transparent that they do not only charge 15% of the pros profit but also a good amount of the prints net price?
You have no idea what Bay Photo's charges to SmugMug are, so you can't know what we're making.
I take this pretty serious. I'm not talking about high print prices but about trust between Smugmug and pros.
Smugmug, please tell me that this has been a mistake and that pros will order at cost again (and not at higher prices than the average hobby shooter). I really want to believe and trust you guys and I would hate to cancel my account because of this.
Still, this is an important issue to me and to us, and we're working with Bay to more closely align print prices. I hope that I'm successful in doing so. Bay also lowered prices to their customers on some items, since SmugMug and Bay struck an agreement - thus the disparity you've noted on some items. I can't say when, and how fast something will happen, but I can tell you that Larry and I are in constant communication about this.
Let me just start by saying that I have no dog in this fight. I am a new Smugmug member and am thus far enjoying the experience and the range of services. But, having stumbled across this thread, I can't help but wonder why there is so much discussion about bringing prices "inline" with the prices that the print labs offer to the general public. With the volume of prints that Smugmug must surely generate I can't help but think that the prices should be LOWER than those offered to the general public. After all, volume pricing or bulk discounts are not anything new. When you ship via UPS through e-bay you pay less than when you walk into a UPS store. When you buy the giant jar of mustard at Costco you pay less per ounce then you do at the super market. You get the idea. Is Smugmug really leveraging their influence to the benefit of its customers? I'm not in a position to know, it's just a question for the universe...
Let me just start by saying that I have no dog in this fight. I am a new Smugmug member and am thus far enjoying the experience and the range of services. But, having stumbled across this thread, I can't help but wonder why there is so much discussion about bringing prices "inline" with the prices that the print labs offer to the general public. With the volume of prints that Smugmug must surely generate I can't help but think that the prices should be LOWER than those offered to the general public. After all, volume pricing or bulk discounts are not anything new. When you ship via UPS through e-bay you pay less than when you walk into a UPS store. When you buy the giant jar of mustard at Costco you pay less per ounce then you do at the super market. You get the idea. Is Smugmug really leveraging their influence to the benefit of its customers? I'm not in a position to know, it's just a question for the universe...
You are not the 1st to make this statement........these types of ?'s have been around for a very long time......just like why the no foreign currency and lab outside the US......these things have caused many,many, many, many to leave and go else where........
99.9% of all partnerships such as this one is to get your members the lowest possible price from a vendor as possible...that is why I do not use SM for the crux of my selling....people go look and email what they want and I invoice thru paypal....
I have the same issue with Zenfolio but it costs me $100 a yr as apposed to the $150. When I checked the framing of one of my 16x20 metalic pics it was $97 and change but can't say what the shipping is. I'm not sure if I need to back my cut down or not? I have it figured for a $20 cut.
When you get the choice to sit it out or dance...I hope you dance. All4Him, Reenie
You guys have to consider something. While there may be quantity discounts passed on to high volume customers like SM, in this new economy, margins are not what they used to be and companies operate with a lot less cushion. I wouldn't expect the discount to SM to be like the difference between UPS retail rates and UPS daily rates.
And then there's the second thing--I honestly don't believe SM makes enough from just the yearly fee, or just the 15% (or whatever it is) that they collect from our gross sales to be a healthy, profitable, and sustainable company. And everyone that's in business is in business to make money.
I want SM to be around (as well as Zen and all the others). And for them to store and serve out 300gb (or in my case over 700) of photos and videos and still make money, if they have to make money off of my sales from their negotiations, so be it. This has to be a win-win for all parties involved, or it won't survive. If the costs of SM are too high for what they offer, there is direct fulfillment. But for those of us that can utilize the product just as it is, that's just the cost of doing business.
Since turning my SmugMug site live in the last week of August '10 I've sold a little over $1200 worth of prints, mostly small sizes in either loose, luster prints, or moderately sized MetalPrints. And I'm pretty happy with those results. However, my profits have been surprisingly low. And honestly, I'm starting to feel like SmugMug is a bit of a rip off for the semi-professional photographer.
First of all, it's difficult to sell modern art photography online, sight unseen to the buyer. And I understand that, which is why I have to keep my prices competitive. I'm not doing hired jobs and then posting the shots and making them available to my clients. That's not the kind of work I do - and all things considered I'm happy with the sales I've made. I'm working off word-of-mouth traffic to my website, and small features in e-newsletters such as Daily Candy.
However, I'm just not sure if it's worth it. $150 to Smugmug to enable me to sell photos (for a Pro Account). And then they get 15% of the mark-up on each sale? For what? Where did my $150 go? What's that used for? If I sell a $70 print after all is said and done I'm only walking away with about $16. And I'm not even going to get into Bay Photo's shipping costs which are, in a word, astronomical. I mean, simply insane. At least 4x higher through SmugMug than if you ordered directly from Bay Photo.
What I'm trying to say is, we're set up for failure through SmugMug. It's hard enough selling photography online, so we're forced to keep our prices low to make it possible. We pay SM $150 + 15% of each sale, while trying to convince our buyers to pay nearly $20 for shipping on a not-so-large 12x18 print. 5% I could understand, but 15%?
I know SmugMug has great customer service, but I wonder how other people are doing in sales, and if anyone is questioning SM the same way I am. Thanks for listening.
To the OP, I think your photos are great so keep up the good work! As well as the other posters in this thread, I agree a lot with what you all have to say. SM has to make money. I have never believed in anything 'free' or a worthwhile product being 'cheap'. Being from Vegas, 'you gotta' pay to play'. This year I'm going to take advantage of what my PRO account has to offer = print sales. I have been taking advantage of the storage and showcasing the photos (I even embedded the flash gallery on my main site from my SM site, saves me mucho time from re-upping my portfolios). I especially love the coupon features (although the credit/amount-off features are still somewhat confusing to me).
Back to the OP, I looked at your print prices, I think they're extremely reasonable. However, I would suggest perhaps offering more images in your gallery for people to go and buy...or increase your prices to reflect your costs. Perhaps find more ways to market your products to increase sales (10% off coupons can go far!)?
But I still think you're getting a great deal. For example, at our university, I got charged (til' I graduated) $12-15 for parking per month, which I still had to 'hunt for space' = wasting plenty of time: I had to leave for class 1 hour early just so I can get to class 5 minutes before it started, when the campus is only 15 minutes away. Anyway, the point I'm making is compared to my parking pass, the price is similar with SM, but SM continues to make my life easier by taking care of my galleries and photos (hopefully my prints this year). My parking pass is a rip-off, it does not pay itself off, even intructors have to pay for parking and they still have to walk 1/4 mile away for the most part. SM is pricey @ $150 a year, but that's just ~$12-13 a month, that's less than most people spend on lunch+dinner in a day = $0.42 cents a day. I say use it to your full extent, sell sell sell! Or at the least, upload every image you've ever had and use it for storage.
I realize that smugmug brought this on themselves by spoiling us too much, but it seems that there are a lot of people complaining about things that smugmug never promised to offer.
Please correct me if I am wrong: Smugmug is a photo hosting - sharing site.
They allow us to have unlimited space for $150 per year.
On top of that, they allow us to build unlimited galleries, design the website, and use our domain names and logos. They built this forum to allow us to share our images, or get more "free" help from them.
When I signed up for smugmug, I don't remember reading in their "terms" that they guaranteed to help me with getting sales, getting clients, getting higher google rankings, or the best price on my printing.
As far as I know, smugmug has never tried to stop me from using whatever printer I want (including Bay Photo). They haven't tried stopping me from using a different check out system. As a matter of fact they offered tutorials to add paypal to my site.
As far as I can tell smugmug has consistently gone out of the way to offer other services beyond hosting and sharing that doesn't cost us an extra dollar.
Maybe you guys would appreciate them more if they charged for the customization help, the website ranking help, the printing help, or limited their help directly to the help desk.
Seems to me that a photo hosting - sharing company that offers all of this is a real bargain.
Man, every time this thread pops up in my subscription feed I get a creepy feeling.
Rip-off is such a strong term, I don't think the OP even meant his criticism of SM that harshly. But it reads like SM is scamming, underhanded, ripping people off.
Better would be "SmugMug, is it worth it?" or any number of alternates. Just seems grossly unfair, to me.
Man, every time this thread pops up in my subscription feed I get a creepy feeling.
Rip-off is such a strong term, I don't think the OP even meant his criticism of SM that harshly. But it reads like SM is scamming, underhanded, ripping people off.
Better would be "SmugMug, is it worth it?" or any number of alternates. Just seems grossly unfair, to me.
I agree. I left Smugmug for Exposure Manager, but not because I thought SM was a rip-off, only because I got more of what I need and want from EM at a lower price.
Man, every time this thread pops up in my subscription feed I get a creepy feeling.
Rip-off is such a strong term, I don't think the OP even meant his criticism of SM that harshly. But it reads like SM is scamming, underhanded, ripping people off.
Better would be "SmugMug, is it worth it?" or any number of alternates. Just seems grossly unfair, to me.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the term "rip off" (and I agree that it seems a bit harsh) was used not so much from a sense that smugmug wasn't worth the $150.00 plus 15%, but rather what seems to be the feeling of some that the prices offered as a "base" are artificially high and do not represent true cost, therefore creating a situation where the 15% is really 15% plus some unstated markup on the "base price". The total price that sumgmuggers ultimately receive is not necessarily "the issue" so far as I can perceive but rather the impression that the way we got there wasn't exactly straight forward.
A college professor once told me that "expectations" are "premeditated resentments". In this case it seems that some "expected" the base price to be "at cost". I don't believe that this is stated anywhere (feel free to correct me if it is).
From a PR standpoint, perhaps one solution might involve making the "base price" the actual cost and then raising the 15% to whatever it needs to be in order to maintain a viable business model. Alternatively, the 15% could be removed altogether and smugmug could sell its products to smugmuggers at whatever price they found to be proper and we the customers keep all of the markup on the resold products.
This of course is just my 2 cents offered up as an attempt to more fully understand the nature of the grievance and head off any tide of resentment that might in some manner diminish the experience, that, as I stated in a previous post I am currently enjoying.
As a side, from a historical standpoint, the declaration of independence, the war that followed and the ultimate separation from England, issued forth over a matter of taxation that represented a tax that was LESS than their English counterparts were paying, but that were perceived as unfair due to the lack of representation. For whatever that is worth....
Comments
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Lynne
smugpro since 2004
Galleries here Upcoming Ranch/Horse Workshop
Now, when SM sends them the original and then Bay uses SM's account for the shipping or bills SM the shipping to pass onto the customer, that adds administrative overhead. And that has to be covered somehow. So that's where I think it's coming from. Great to hear!
Want faster uploading? Vote for FTP!
Glass: >Sigma 17-35mm,f2.8-4 DG >Tamron 28-75mm,f2.8 >Canon 100mm 2.8 Macro >Canon 70-200mm,f2.8L IS >Canon 200mm,f2.8L
Flash: >550EX >Sigma EF-500 DG Super >studio strobes
Sites: Jim Mitte Photography - Livingston Sports Photos - Brighton Football Photos
On a side note I have had tons of compliments about the UI for the shopping cart and photo galleries!
www.gettagged.biz
And decent folks hanging out on this forum, too. Tried the others lately? There's some downright wierdness and nastyness out there; here, not as much.
www.SaraPiazza.com - Edgartown News - Trad Diary - Facebook
Oh yeah!
I've been with SM a few years now and absolutely love it. I've watched other photogs in my area manage their own ordering, packaging, shipping, delivery etc. - working until the wee hours to do all of that admin and THEN get up and go out and shoot.
I do my shoots, point my clients to their galleries and away we go. My time is spent shooting, editing and soliciting new business.
My ONLY beef about SM is that there is no lab in Canada which makes shipping and getting through the border a PITA - but even with THAT the quality of the prints my clients received is worth it.
http://www.imagesbyceci.com
http://www.facebook.com/ImagesByCeci
Picadilly, NB, Canada
8x12 on bayphoto: $2.25 | Smugmug: $3.99 (both lustre, no color correction). I mean, that's 78% more.
Or am I overseeing something?
I'm looking into this, this should not be the case.
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I'd hate to search for a different photo lab for my own prints.
Not yet but I am working on it.
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Try finding any other website that would match or even come close to that.
Andrew
Good search results come from following the basics that we stress, hard work by you, hard work by SmugMug. We'll continue to work on getting SmugMug images found in Google Image Search. David Rosenthal has already emailed you about this.
Portfolio • Workshops • Facebook • Twitter
searching for images and getting anything from Smug to show up. Testing,
I've searched for rare birds knowing there would be very few photos on the
web, none of mine showed. All my birds are captioned and keyworded. If I
search Smugmug they readily show up but not on Google images.
My Website index | My Blog
I'll second that. Black River Imaging is also great.
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
It has been a week now and still no answer.
Again, Smugmug charges their pros significantly more than bayphoto.com. Why?
Examples (metallic, no color correction)
4x6 SM: 0.66 bay: 0.29 (+127%)
5x7 SM: 1.43 bay: 1.32 (+8%)
8x10 SM: 3.38 bay: 2.06 (+64%)
11x14 SM: 8.79 bay: 4.59 (+92%)
I've always been a fan of Smugmug but I have to admit that I'm kind of feeling betrayed right now.
Shouldn't SM publish and make transparent that they do not only charge 15% of the pros profit but also a good amount of the prints net price?
I take this pretty serious. I'm not talking about high print prices but about trust between Smugmug and pros.
Smugmug, please tell me that this has been a mistake and that pros will order at cost again (and not at higher prices than the average hobby shooter). I really want to believe and trust you guys and I would hate to cancel my account because of this.
Thanks for posting.
Portfolio • Workshops • Facebook • Twitter
You are not the 1st to make this statement........these types of ?'s have been around for a very long time......just like why the no foreign currency and lab outside the US......these things have caused many,many, many, many to leave and go else where........
99.9% of all partnerships such as this one is to get your members the lowest possible price from a vendor as possible...that is why I do not use SM for the crux of my selling....people go look and email what they want and I invoice thru paypal....
Wow, took a gander at that book on Amazon. People LOVE that book! And you can get it on your Kindle, too!
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
And then there's the second thing--I honestly don't believe SM makes enough from just the yearly fee, or just the 15% (or whatever it is) that they collect from our gross sales to be a healthy, profitable, and sustainable company. And everyone that's in business is in business to make money.
I want SM to be around (as well as Zen and all the others). And for them to store and serve out 300gb (or in my case over 700) of photos and videos and still make money, if they have to make money off of my sales from their negotiations, so be it. This has to be a win-win for all parties involved, or it won't survive. If the costs of SM are too high for what they offer, there is direct fulfillment. But for those of us that can utilize the product just as it is, that's just the cost of doing business.
Want faster uploading? Vote for FTP!
To the OP, I think your photos are great so keep up the good work! As well as the other posters in this thread, I agree a lot with what you all have to say. SM has to make money. I have never believed in anything 'free' or a worthwhile product being 'cheap'. Being from Vegas, 'you gotta' pay to play'. This year I'm going to take advantage of what my PRO account has to offer = print sales. I have been taking advantage of the storage and showcasing the photos (I even embedded the flash gallery on my main site from my SM site, saves me mucho time from re-upping my portfolios). I especially love the coupon features (although the credit/amount-off features are still somewhat confusing to me).
Back to the OP, I looked at your print prices, I think they're extremely reasonable. However, I would suggest perhaps offering more images in your gallery for people to go and buy...or increase your prices to reflect your costs. Perhaps find more ways to market your products to increase sales (10% off coupons can go far!)?
But I still think you're getting a great deal. For example, at our university, I got charged (til' I graduated) $12-15 for parking per month, which I still had to 'hunt for space' = wasting plenty of time: I had to leave for class 1 hour early just so I can get to class 5 minutes before it started, when the campus is only 15 minutes away. Anyway, the point I'm making is compared to my parking pass, the price is similar with SM, but SM continues to make my life easier by taking care of my galleries and photos (hopefully my prints this year). My parking pass is a rip-off, it does not pay itself off, even intructors have to pay for parking and they still have to walk 1/4 mile away for the most part. SM is pricey @ $150 a year, but that's just ~$12-13 a month, that's less than most people spend on lunch+dinner in a day = $0.42 cents a day. I say use it to your full extent, sell sell sell! Or at the least, upload every image you've ever had and use it for storage.
I hope that alleviates any buyer's remorse.
Please correct me if I am wrong: Smugmug is a photo hosting - sharing site.
They allow us to have unlimited space for $150 per year.
On top of that, they allow us to build unlimited galleries, design the website, and use our domain names and logos. They built this forum to allow us to share our images, or get more "free" help from them.
When I signed up for smugmug, I don't remember reading in their "terms" that they guaranteed to help me with getting sales, getting clients, getting higher google rankings, or the best price on my printing.
As far as I know, smugmug has never tried to stop me from using whatever printer I want (including Bay Photo). They haven't tried stopping me from using a different check out system. As a matter of fact they offered tutorials to add paypal to my site.
As far as I can tell smugmug has consistently gone out of the way to offer other services beyond hosting and sharing that doesn't cost us an extra dollar.
Maybe you guys would appreciate them more if they charged for the customization help, the website ranking help, the printing help, or limited their help directly to the help desk.
Seems to me that a photo hosting - sharing company that offers all of this is a real bargain.
Website
Rip-off is such a strong term, I don't think the OP even meant his criticism of SM that harshly. But it reads like SM is scamming, underhanded, ripping people off.
Better would be "SmugMug, is it worth it?" or any number of alternates. Just seems grossly unfair, to me.
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
I agree. I left Smugmug for Exposure Manager, but not because I thought SM was a rip-off, only because I got more of what I need and want from EM at a lower price.
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the term "rip off" (and I agree that it seems a bit harsh) was used not so much from a sense that smugmug wasn't worth the $150.00 plus 15%, but rather what seems to be the feeling of some that the prices offered as a "base" are artificially high and do not represent true cost, therefore creating a situation where the 15% is really 15% plus some unstated markup on the "base price". The total price that sumgmuggers ultimately receive is not necessarily "the issue" so far as I can perceive but rather the impression that the way we got there wasn't exactly straight forward.
A college professor once told me that "expectations" are "premeditated resentments". In this case it seems that some "expected" the base price to be "at cost". I don't believe that this is stated anywhere (feel free to correct me if it is).
From a PR standpoint, perhaps one solution might involve making the "base price" the actual cost and then raising the 15% to whatever it needs to be in order to maintain a viable business model. Alternatively, the 15% could be removed altogether and smugmug could sell its products to smugmuggers at whatever price they found to be proper and we the customers keep all of the markup on the resold products.
This of course is just my 2 cents offered up as an attempt to more fully understand the nature of the grievance and head off any tide of resentment that might in some manner diminish the experience, that, as I stated in a previous post I am currently enjoying.
As a side, from a historical standpoint, the declaration of independence, the war that followed and the ultimate separation from England, issued forth over a matter of taxation that represented a tax that was LESS than their English counterparts were paying, but that were perceived as unfair due to the lack of representation. For whatever that is worth....