I'm struggling with what to set my prices at. I ran across this thread while trying to find discussion on pricing. I'm a brand new Pro customer, and have a year to go to see how it goes. I'm curious how much success people have selling from their sites... for those like me, which at this point, is strictly selling via the SM site, not using it to proof and fulfill existing clients. I"m actually pessimistic about selling much.
Anyway, on to the topic: I am a bit surprised to find that SM upcharges the costs for Bay, on top of the 15% charge. I have no complaints about the 15%; I feel the $150 annual fee is relatively reasonable for the base services provide.
But on pricing, frankly, I feel that all the business that SM brings to Bay should allow for more of a wholesale price which should be passed to us, not a marked up price from what we could get purchasing direct.
How on earth can we expect to mark up an already marked up price, when for example any half way savvy person doing a search for metal prints finds Bay Photo at the top of the list, quoting a price less than our cost? If they really want our pictures (which of course is what we all really want them to do) they can purchase a relatively inexpensive digital version then print at Bay.
All this being said, as far as services and support go, with only a little time in this so far, I am quite happy.
I'm struggling with what to set my prices at. I ran across this thread while trying to find discussion on pricing. I'm a brand new Pro customer, and have a year to go to see how it goes. I'm curious how much success people have selling from their sites... for those like me, which at this point, is strictly selling via the SM site, not using it to proof and fulfill existing clients. I"m actually pessimistic about selling much.
Anyway, on to the topic: I am a bit surprised to find that SM upcharges the costs for Bay, on top of the 15% charge. I have no complaints about the 15%; I feel the $150 annual fee is relatively reasonable for the base services provide.
But on pricing, frankly, I feel that all the business that SM brings to Bay should allow for more of a wholesale price which should be passed to us, not a marked up price from what we could get purchasing direct.
How on earth can we expect to mark up an already marked up price, when for example any half way savvy person doing a search for metal prints finds Bay Photo at the top of the list, quoting a price less than our cost? If they really want our pictures (which of course is what we all really want them to do) they can purchase a relatively inexpensive digital version then print at Bay.
All this being said, as far as services and support go, with only a little time in this so far, I am quite happy.
If you're selling high res digital versions of your work for a relatively inexpensive price then that is a problem. As you say, any savvy person will just buy a digital version and make their own prints. That has nothing to do with SM markups - it's your own pricing problem for the high res digital versions. If you're really trying to make money on print enlargements, then you either can't sell a high res digital version capable of making a quality print or you need to sell if for a high enough price that you're fine with it replacing print orders from that customer. You can sell web-sized digital versions useful for facebook and other sites like that for a lot less because they can't be used to make high quality enlargements.
If you're selling high res digital versions of your work for a relatively inexpensive price then that is a problem. As you say, any savvy person will just buy a digital version and make their own prints. That has nothing to do with SM markups - it's your own pricing problem for the high res digital versions. If you're really trying to make money on print enlargements, then you either can't sell a high res digital version capable of making a quality print or you need to sell if for a high enough price that you're fine with it replacing print orders from that customer. You can sell web-sized digital versions useful for facebook and other sites like that for a lot less because they can't be used to make high quality enlargements.
Sure. I do realize that, but its good to make the point.
Sure. I do realize that, but its good to make the point.
I don't understand what point you're trying to make then. When you're selling prints, you're not selling the cost of a print. You're selling the value of the photography you created, delivered in print form. If your customers only see the value in the prints they order as the value of the manufacturing cost of a print, then you will have a constant problem with your prices. Somehow, you will need to change the presentation of your work and communication with your clients to be more about the value of the content you're selling rather than the manufacturing cost of a print.
I don't understand what point you're trying to make then. When you're selling prints, you're not selling the cost of a print. You're selling the value of the photography you created, delivered in print form. If your customers only see the value in the prints they order as the value of the manufacturing cost of a print, then you will have a constant problem with your prices. Somehow, you will need to change the presentation of your work and communication with your clients to be more about the value of the content you're selling rather than the manufacturing cost of a print.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant it was good for you to make your point.
However, I do feel, and hopefully will be surprised, that the pricing we are having to use will be high. After reading in this thread, and before posting, I spent a half hour searching other sites that sell their own prints in metal, wraps, etc, and the prices on most were not higher than our cost for Bay, even if we don't have SM markups, let alone after we mark it up. Didn't take much searching...they come up in the ads at the top. They too are selling the value of their art work.
Again, as I said, I have no complaint about the 15% markup for SM; or the $150/year cost. I do feel some of the criticism in this thread toward SM is not justified. But it does seem that the volume of sales that SM provides to Bay via all of the Pro photographers here should allow for a 'wholesale' price of the Bay Lab work that could help make us more competitive with our prices, let alone SM marking it up to us. (Although, based on just a little looking at prices, I do not see that they are doing it to all, only a few. Not sure why the discrepancy).
All of that being said, I'm giving it a go for a year here. Hopefully I'll meet some success, and it will go much longer than a year. I'm excited about it, even if a bit pessimistic about the prices we have to use. In the end, the photography we are using has to be good enough quality for the customer to want it. If they don't want it, being inexpensive won't help either. I don't know if I'll meet that goal or not, but I plan to sure try.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant it was good for you to make your point.
However, I do feel, and hopefully will be surprised, that the pricing we are having to use will be high. After reading in this thread, and before posting, I spent a half hour searching other sites that sell their own prints in metal, wraps, etc, and the prices on most were not higher than our cost for Bay, even if we don't have SM markups, let alone after we mark it up. Didn't take much searching...they come up in the ads at the top. They too are selling the value of their art work.
Again, as I said, I have no complaint about the 15% markup for SM; or the $150/year cost. I do feel some of the criticism in this thread toward SM is not justified. But it does seem that the volume of sales that SM provides to Bay via all of the Pro photographers here should allow for a 'wholesale' price of the Bay Lab work that could help make us more competitive with our prices, let alone SM marking it up to us. (Although, based on just a little looking at prices, I do not see that they are doing it to all, only a few. Not sure why the discrepancy).
All of that being said, I'm giving it a go for a year here. Hopefully I'll meet some success, and it will go much longer than a year. I'm excited about it, even if a bit pessimistic about the prices we have to use. In the end, the photography we are using has to be good enough quality for the customer to want it. If they don't want it, being inexpensive won't help either. I don't know if I'll meet that goal or not, but I plan to sure try.
I agree that SM shouldn't be charging us more than "retail" for Bay printing as that somewhat breaks the idea that we thought we were signing up for with pro accounts. In fact, one would expect that they'd get a volume discount/OEM discount from Bay and pass on at least some of that savings to us as one of the benefits of going through SM.
Guys when we set our pricing years ago with Bay Photo everything was on par. Since then, Bay has changed some prices. We'll continue to work with them to get more parity but there is not this vast gulf that you are making it out to be
I agree that SM shouldn't be charging us more than "retail" for Bay printing as that somewhat breaks the idea that we thought we were signing up for with pro accounts. In fact, one would expect that they'd get a volume discount/OEM discount from Bay and pass on at least some of that savings to us as one of the benefits of going through SM.
Sounds like we are in synch, John.
By the way, again, I want to thank you personally for all of your support here in this forum. I don't know if you, and all the other folks who are providing great support are paid, or just volunteering because you enjoy it and are dedicated. (I see your subtitle says volunteer).
Whehter paid or not, you and the others here are a great asset to SmugMug.
Hmm
How about just match their pricing. You're already getting funds over and above, you're already charging a membership fee. How much more do you need?
This other website you all speak of, does it pay you your funds right away or more than the one time a month? OR do they pay when requested?
With Fotki - all I have to do is request and they put it in my paypal whenever I ask for it. I ask this, because I have a hardship case right now. My mother is in the hospital and I have requested to get my funds in whole right away. I have never had any cancellations or send backs the entire time I have been here etc... This is rather tough through the holidays as I need to help my mother out and sm refuses to do it (just give me excuses) which im sure will follow here.
To the OP: Thank you for bringing this to the attention. I knew it was going on but didn't take the time to go in depth.
Guys when we set our pricing years ago with Bay Photo everything was on par. Since then, Bay has changed some prices. We'll continue to work with them to get more parity but there is not this vast gulf that you are making it out to be
How about just match their pricing. You're already getting funds over and above, you're already charging a membership fee. How much more do you need?
This other website you all speak of, does it pay you your funds right away or more than the one time a month? OR do they pay when requested?
With Fotki - all I have to do is request and they put it in my paypal whenever I ask for it. I ask this, because I have a hardship case right now. My mother is in the hospital and I have requested to get my funds in whole right away. I have never had any cancellations or send backs the entire time I have been here etc... This is rather tough through the holidays as I need to help my mother out and sm refuses to do it (just give me excuses) which im sure will follow here.
To the OP: Thank you for bringing this to the attention. I knew it was going on but didn't take the time to go in depth.
Ill check this other place out!
Damon, we ALWAYS take care of situations like this. ALWAYS. If you need to, write us http://help.smugmug.com ATTN Andy and I'll get your payment out as soon as possible.
One of the things that I'd really like to see is more offering of what Bay sells. And with regard to the 'baked in' things on metal, unfortunately, it that baked in configuration is opposite of what I've been finding most interest in outside of coming here. In particular, not being able to offer sheer metal products. Only glossy.
Would also like to be able to offer splits, and collages...but I realize that the software to make the sale, like what Bay does, is probably an obstacle to that.
One of the things that I'd really like to see is more offering of what Bay sells. And with regard to the 'baked in' things on metal, unfortunately, it that baked in configuration is opposite of what I've been finding most interest in outside of coming here. In particular, not being able to offer sheer metal products. Only glossy.
Would also like to be able to offer splits, and collages...but I realize that the software to make the sale, like what Bay does, is probably an obstacle to that.
Hey Andy, since we're talking about the payout I have this question...Since I have a business I recently had a conversation with a former IRS agent (who is also a church member at my parents church). In explaining the payout method, which is requested by the 8th of the month and then paid out the next month (correct me if I'm wrong), he asked me "how much money are they making from interest by holding your money"? It made me think for a second like whoa, if I got money that's being held how many other smuggers are there with money being held and smugmug earning interest from it? Now don't get me wrong I'm not displeased with smugmug but if we can get quicker payment in general with "show me the money" that would be cool. Or is there other information involved in why smugmug makes deposits the way they do (time wise)?
Hey Andy, since we're talking about the payout I have this question...Since I have a business I recently had a conversation with a former IRS agent (who is also a church member at my parents church). In explaining the payout method, which is requested by the 8th of the month and then paid out the next month (correct me if I'm wrong), he asked me "how much money are they making from interest by holding your money"? It made me think for a second like whoa, if I got money that's being held how many other smuggers are there with money being held and smugmug earning interest from it? Now don't get me wrong I'm not displeased with smugmug but if we can get quicker payment in general with "show me the money" that would be cool. Or is there other information involved in why smugmug makes deposits the way they do (time wise)?
We pay on the 8th, for the prior month, to allow for time for returns, disputes, and such. We also have a many-year history of paying after the 8th and before the 8th of the next month, when special circumstances present. It's YOUR money not ours. Interest? Hah, that doesn't even factor.
Hey Andy, since we're talking about the payout I have this question...Since I have a business I recently had a conversation with a former IRS agent (who is also a church member at my parents church). In explaining the payout method, which is requested by the 8th of the month and then paid out the next month (correct me if I'm wrong), he asked me "how much money are they making from interest by holding your money"? It made me think for a second like whoa, if I got money that's being held how many other smuggers are there with money being held and smugmug earning interest from it? Now don't get me wrong I'm not displeased with smugmug but if we can get quicker payment in general with "show me the money" that would be cool. Or is there other information involved in why smugmug makes deposits the way they do (time wise)?
If you've looked at "safe" interest rates lately, you'd realize that there is very little interest to be made by holding anyone's money for short periods of time these days as interest rates are ridiculously low these days (4-week t-bills are 0.02% which is like 1/4% per year). It might have been different in the days when annual interest rates were 12%, but not so today.
Hey thanks for responding. I'm not sure if raising my prices would hurt or help me, but I know I want to keep my photography affordable. I'd rather have 100 inexpensive prints sell than 5 expensive ones. I want it to be widely available. I think my prices are fair, without being too low. What do you think? The Bay Photo costs for MetalPrints are extremely high and there's only so much I'd feel comfortable charging for them.
SM also offers places for you to sell proprietary items which don't have to be printed through any of their vendors, you would receive the order notification from your client (after they pay through SM) then you get the product printed wherever you like, and ship however you want on your own terms and forward to customer... means more work for you, but you could keep more of your profit too. So, all that extra work you would be doing is what you are paying for through those commissions and higher shipping costs. Keep more of your money, do more of the work. The cost of doing business.
SM also offers places for you to sell proprietary items which don't have to be printed through any of their vendors...
Just for my education...what 'places' are you talking about? I am aware that we can do our own custom coding, and use Paypal, etc., but I'm not aware of these 'places they provide' that you are speaking of.
Frankly, in my case, only reason I would want to do that is to sell things that they don't let us sell yet.
I'm early in this process, but I'm happy with the flexibility and customizability they allow.
SM also offers places for you to sell proprietary items which don't have to be printed through any of their vendors, you would receive the order notification from your client (after they pay through SM) then you get the product printed wherever you like, and ship however you want on your own terms and forward to customer... means more work for you, but you could keep more of your profit too. So, all that extra work you would be doing is what you are paying for through those commissions and higher shipping costs. Keep more of your money, do more of the work. The cost of doing business.
Just for my education...what 'places' are you talking about? I am aware that we can do our own custom coding, and use Paypal, etc., but I'm not aware of these 'places they provide' that you are speaking of.
Frankly, in my case, only reason I would want to do that is to sell things that they don't let us sell yet.
I'm early in this process, but I'm happy with the flexibility and customizability they allow.
I too would like to know about this...I have been with them for a long time .... the only way I know of doing this is thru PayPal or Google Check out...but that takes SM totally out of the equation....Totally and puts the Whole Burden of Taxes and fulfillment on you TOTALLY....
I guess I disagree here. Who ever said that SM has an obligation to sell prints through Bay at the same prices that Bay offers direct? Where is that ever said or offered? Bay makes their own business decisions what to charge SM and what to charge their direct customers. There is nothing anywhere that guarentees those two prices will ever be the same. Yes, as customers, we might want the SM rate to be at or below what Bay charges, but it's a pure business decision for both Bay and SM whether the SM rate is lower, same or higher.
There is no deception at all here. SM and Bay are both perfectly upfront about what their print prices are. If you don't like the SM/Bay prices, you are free to shop around and order a different way. In reality, you need to look at what SM is offering with it's Bay-printed prices and decide relative to your other competitive options if that's a good deal for you or not. If you would rather self-fullfill and use Bay direct, you are free to do that. You will give up a lot of SM functionality when you do that (shopping cart, free customer service, 100% satisfaction print guarentee, etc...), but if giving those up and going with the Bay direct prices is better for your business situation, then you are free to do that.
FYI, I think it's a reasonable question to ask SM why their Bay printed prices are higher than Bay's own direct prices and see how they respond, but I don't think anyone is doing anything deceptive here.
As far as SM prices being a little higher than Bay direct. Have any of you that are complaining about it ever heard of the "middle man" in any business, of any kind, that doesn't make a profit over the prices they themselves pay? If you want Bay direct pricing, get it directly from Bay.
Personally, I'm coming up on the end of my first year and there is no doubt what so ever there will be a year #2. For $150 I get all the storage I will ever need, and the ability to sell my work without doing much on my end other than getting people to view my site. Being about as technologically challenged as a person can be, without the Hero's help my site would not be what it is. That alone was worth more than the $150 (SM peeps pretend you didn't hear that)
As far as SM prices being a little higher than Bay direct. Have any of you that are complaining about it ever heard of the "middle man" in any business, of any kind, that doesn't make a profit over the prices they themselves pay? If you want Bay direct pricing, get it directly from Bay.
And, the middleman doesn't pay retail. They pay wholesale and mark it up to something comparable to retail. Smugmug is already making their 15% on every order.
I too would like to know about this...I have been with them for a long time .... the only way I know of doing this is thru PayPal or Google Check out...but that takes SM totally out of the equation....Totally and puts the Whole Burden of Taxes and fulfillment on you TOTALLY....
I also was not aware the SM finally offered self-fulfill items.
I also was not aware the SM finally offered self-fulfill items.
We don't. Adding a custom shopping cart to your site with advanced customizations is not something new and it doesn't have anything to do with us specifically as it doesn't use our shopping cart.
You can find an example of adding such a custom cart here: http://help.smugmug.com/customer/portal/articles/84515
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Anyway, on to the topic: I am a bit surprised to find that SM upcharges the costs for Bay, on top of the 15% charge. I have no complaints about the 15%; I feel the $150 annual fee is relatively reasonable for the base services provide.
But on pricing, frankly, I feel that all the business that SM brings to Bay should allow for more of a wholesale price which should be passed to us, not a marked up price from what we could get purchasing direct.
How on earth can we expect to mark up an already marked up price, when for example any half way savvy person doing a search for metal prints finds Bay Photo at the top of the list, quoting a price less than our cost? If they really want our pictures (which of course is what we all really want them to do) they can purchase a relatively inexpensive digital version then print at Bay.
All this being said, as far as services and support go, with only a little time in this so far, I am quite happy.
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Sure. I do realize that, but its good to make the point.
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Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant it was good for you to make your point.
However, I do feel, and hopefully will be surprised, that the pricing we are having to use will be high. After reading in this thread, and before posting, I spent a half hour searching other sites that sell their own prints in metal, wraps, etc, and the prices on most were not higher than our cost for Bay, even if we don't have SM markups, let alone after we mark it up. Didn't take much searching...they come up in the ads at the top. They too are selling the value of their art work.
Again, as I said, I have no complaint about the 15% markup for SM; or the $150/year cost. I do feel some of the criticism in this thread toward SM is not justified. But it does seem that the volume of sales that SM provides to Bay via all of the Pro photographers here should allow for a 'wholesale' price of the Bay Lab work that could help make us more competitive with our prices, let alone SM marking it up to us. (Although, based on just a little looking at prices, I do not see that they are doing it to all, only a few. Not sure why the discrepancy).
All of that being said, I'm giving it a go for a year here. Hopefully I'll meet some success, and it will go much longer than a year. I'm excited about it, even if a bit pessimistic about the prices we have to use. In the end, the photography we are using has to be good enough quality for the customer to want it. If they don't want it, being inexpensive won't help either. I don't know if I'll meet that goal or not, but I plan to sure try.
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We have some work to do on 8x10 and 8x12 sizes but I'm struggling to find the differences that you guys are talking about.
Sources: http://www.smugmug.com/prints/catalog/ABP and http://bayphoto.com/bayweb/pro_standardsizes.htm
Remember that for some items (like MetalPrints) we have options 'baked in' like the mounting, corners, and finish).
I'm all ears if you guys can point out major disparity, thanks!
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Sounds like we are in synch, John.
By the way, again, I want to thank you personally for all of your support here in this forum. I don't know if you, and all the other folks who are providing great support are paid, or just volunteering because you enjoy it and are dedicated. (I see your subtitle says volunteer).
Whehter paid or not, you and the others here are a great asset to SmugMug.
How about just match their pricing. You're already getting funds over and above, you're already charging a membership fee. How much more do you need?
This other website you all speak of, does it pay you your funds right away or more than the one time a month? OR do they pay when requested?
With Fotki - all I have to do is request and they put it in my paypal whenever I ask for it. I ask this, because I have a hardship case right now. My mother is in the hospital and I have requested to get my funds in whole right away. I have never had any cancellations or send backs the entire time I have been here etc... This is rather tough through the holidays as I need to help my mother out and sm refuses to do it (just give me excuses) which im sure will follow here.
To the OP: Thank you for bringing this to the attention. I knew it was going on but didn't take the time to go in depth
Ill check this other place out!
Damon, we ALWAYS take care of situations like this. ALWAYS. If you need to, write us http://help.smugmug.com ATTN Andy and I'll get your payment out as soon as possible.
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Toni and Lindy both pretty much kicked me to the side.
And I do appreciate any assistance you can provide.
Ann will be in touch. We always do special payments and we'll do yours.
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Thanks again Andy. Feel free to remove previous posts.. on this thread..
Nah, we don't roll that way
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One of the things that I'd really like to see is more offering of what Bay sells. And with regard to the 'baked in' things on metal, unfortunately, it that baked in configuration is opposite of what I've been finding most interest in outside of coming here. In particular, not being able to offer sheer metal products. Only glossy.
Would also like to be able to offer splits, and collages...but I realize that the software to make the sale, like what Bay does, is probably an obstacle to that.
Stay tuned!
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SM also offers places for you to sell proprietary items which don't have to be printed through any of their vendors, you would receive the order notification from your client (after they pay through SM) then you get the product printed wherever you like, and ship however you want on your own terms and forward to customer... means more work for you, but you could keep more of your profit too. So, all that extra work you would be doing is what you are paying for through those commissions and higher shipping costs. Keep more of your money, do more of the work. The cost of doing business.
Just for my education...what 'places' are you talking about? I am aware that we can do our own custom coding, and use Paypal, etc., but I'm not aware of these 'places they provide' that you are speaking of.
Frankly, in my case, only reason I would want to do that is to sell things that they don't let us sell yet.
I'm early in this process, but I'm happy with the flexibility and customizability they allow.
I too would like to know about this...I have been with them for a long time .... the only way I know of doing this is thru PayPal or Google Check out...but that takes SM totally out of the equation....Totally and puts the Whole Burden of Taxes and fulfillment on you TOTALLY....
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On the subscriber's markup on pro orders only. Just saying, you're not really being accurate there.
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I also was not aware the SM finally offered self-fulfill items.
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Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
You can find an example of adding such a custom cart here:
http://help.smugmug.com/customer/portal/articles/84515
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