I'm just starting my pro account here, and very excited about it. I have been going through the threads in this topic and wondering if it makes any sense to propose that the $150 work like a "deductible" where the first $150 of the %15 commissions contributes to annual fee? That way those who only use the account for display purposes are paying for the excellent feature set and support, but it also allows the store-front owners to re-coop their costs in their profits.
The $150 is needed on top of the 15%, so if they used that model, they'd have to charge a lot higher markup to cover the costs of those using the service for free (not selling anything).
It amuses me to no end that people complain about paying others for services received, yet want to be paid royally for services they have rendered.
I know I get more than my 150 bucks worth from this place - much of what I receive can't be measured in dollars and cents, anyway.
Amen. I think $150 for a pro account is a bargain. And I am totally okay with the 15% commission that SM takes. For that I am getting unlimited hosting, full customization of my website, 24/7 help at the dgrin forums, excellent customer service. The print quality is amazing and I don't have to worry about shipping, printing, whether the customer is happy (due to SM's guarantee) etc. I for one, am supremely happy with smugmug. Keep up the great work guys!!! clapclapclapclapclap
Amen. I think $150 for a pro account is a bargain. And I am totally okay with the 15% commission that SM takes. For that I am getting unlimited hosting, full customization of my website, 24/7 help at the dgrin forums, excellent customer service. The print quality is amazing and I don't have to worry about shipping, printing, whether the customer is happy (due to SM's guarantee) etc. I for one, am supremely happy with smugmug. Keep up the great work guys!!! clapclapclapclapclap
Cheers,
You could give some folks a free yacht, and the'd complain about the gas tank being empty.
Fotki.com is an option is only 30 a year for unlimited hosting etc... They handle the credit card payments, good customer service, doesn't make excuses each and every time rather try to help in every way possible to implement items, pay on a timley basis vs. screwing you out of your money for over a month, dont make or write you snyde remarks etc... AND they have FTP, the option to delete all files if you screw up, etc... Only thing keeping me here is I am working with them to get coupons and some other things this site has... After that we shall see..
Fotki.com is an option is only 30 a year for unlimited hosting etc... They handle the credit card payments, good customer service, doesn't make excuses each and every time rather try to help in every way possible to implement items, pay on a timley basis vs. screwing you out of your money for over a month, dont make or write you snyde remarks etc... AND they have FTP, the option to delete all files if you screw up, etc... Only thing keeping me here is I am working with them to get coupons and some other things this site has... After that we shall see..
Fotki.com is an option is only 30 a year for unlimited hosting etc... They handle the credit card payments, good customer service, doesn't make excuses each and every time rather try to help in every way possible to implement items, pay on a timley basis vs. screwing you out of your money for over a month, dont make or write you snyde remarks etc... AND they have FTP, the option to delete all files if you screw up, etc... Only thing keeping me here is I am working with them to get coupons and some other things this site has... After that we shall see..
I took a look at fotki - the photos look like total crap over there.
I took a look at fotki - the photos look like total crap over there.
their galleries are no where near here... but to "sell photos" for event photographers etc it works great. I also have access to options to things some people do not have. It needs work but the costs are WAY lower... and the service and site for the basics is incredible. Display wise it's no different then here though "quality".
I believe the hang-up in this situation regarding differences in Bay Photo's direct prices verses Bay Photo through SM is that the current SM pricing structure APPEARS to be deceptive on SmugMug's behalf. I'm not saying that is the intent or even what is occurring, but, Andy and SM folks, as you well know, perception is everything with the customer (the customer's perception is your reality).
The $150 per annum and the shipping charges aside, SM markets to their Pro customers that they provide services (and many bells and whistles) for 15% of sales. THEN one looks closely at the SM Bay print price list, does a bit of quick calculation in one's head and realizes the final cost is actually much more than 15% when compared to Bay's direct prices.
For an 8x10, lustre, no color correction, SM is charging a total of 39.11% over Bay's direct prices, which is a total of 54.11% when the 15% fee is added.
For a 12x12, lustre, no color correction, SM is charging a total of 56.64% over Bay's direct prices, which is a total of 80.64%.
As a previous poster stated, one would think that SM would negotiate a contract with Bay to, at minimum, offer direct pricing to SM Pros, and many would further expect SM to work out an economy of scale (volume) contract with Bay (I would fall into that category) to include a clause in either contract that SM's prices from Bay will never be greater than Bay's direct pricing.
Given the above, my perception is: 1. SM needs new contract negotiators or 2. SM is misleading their Pro customers with an inaccurate, yet promoted, fee structure of 15% when in reality the amount is much greater.
The issue to me as a POTENTIAL Pro sales customer is not what SM does with the money (profit, poor negotiations or other) and is not about all the bells and whistles SM offers for the fees (whatever the actual fees might be) but is now an issue of trust.
I fully expected SM's Bay photo pricing to be Bay's direct pricing plus an across-the-board, flat % fee. The disparity between my expectations as a potential customer (currently trialing Pro) and reality has altered my perception of SM regarding operations and relations at this level.
I haven't decided where I will land yet based on pricing and trust at this level but have been a regular SM account user for two years. Is a 54% (8x10) or an 81% (12x12) product up-charge worth SM services for my business model and volume? Dunno yet. Is the feeling/perception that I am being deceived worth SM services? THAT I haven't decided. However, the SM heroes have rocked with all my regular account dealings over the last two years.
I'm curious, though: did you guys at SM properly and independently focus group and test market this pricing structure and mktg language before rollout? 'Cause I gotta say it will shock me yet again if the answer is "yes".
I believe the hang-up in this situation regarding differences in Bay Photo's direct prices verses Bay Photo through SM is that the current SM pricing structure APPEARS to be deceptive on SmugMug's behalf. I'm not saying that is the intent or even what is occurring, but, Andy and SM folks, as you well know, perception is everything with the customer (the customer's perception is your reality).
The $150 per annum and the shipping charges aside, SM markets to their Pro customers that they provide services (and many bells and whistles) for 15% of sales. THEN one looks closely at the SM Bay print price list, does a bit of quick calculation in one's head and realizes the final cost is actually much more than 15% when compared to Bay's direct prices.
For an 8x10, lustre, no color correction, SM is charging a total of 39.11% over Bay's direct prices, which is a total of 54.11% when the 15% fee is added.
For a 12x12, lustre, no color correction, SM is charging a total of 56.64% over Bay's direct prices, which is a total of 80.64%.
As a previous poster stated, one would think that SM would negotiate a contract with Bay to, at minimum, offer direct pricing to SM Pros, and many would further expect SM to work out an economy of scale (volume) contract with Bay (I would fall into that category) to include a clause in either contract that SM's prices from Bay will never be greater than Bay's direct pricing.
Given the above, my perception is: 1. SM needs new contract negotiators or 2. SM is misleading their Pro customers with an inaccurate, yet promoted, fee structure of 15% when in reality the amount is much greater.
The issue to me as a POTENTIAL Pro sales customer is not what SM does with the money (profit, poor negotiations or other) and is not about all the bells and whistles SM offers for the fees (whatever the actual fees might be) but is now an issue of trust.
I fully expected SM's Bay photo pricing to be Bay's direct pricing plus an across-the-board, flat % fee. The disparity between my expectations as a potential customer (currently trialing Pro) and reality has altered my perception of SM regarding operations and relations at this level.
I haven't decided where I will land yet based on pricing and trust at this level but have been a regular SM account user for two years. Is a 54% (8x10) or an 81% (12x12) product up-charge worth SM services for my business model and volume? Dunno yet. Is the feeling/perception that I am being deceived worth SM services? THAT I haven't decided. However, the SM heroes have rocked with all my regular account dealings over the last two years.
I'm curious, though: did you guys at SM properly and independently focus group and test market this pricing structure and mktg language before rollout? 'Cause I gotta say it will shock me yet again if the answer is "yes".
I guess I disagree here. Who ever said that SM has an obligation to sell prints through Bay at the same prices that Bay offers direct? Where is that ever said or offered? Bay makes their own business decisions what to charge SM and what to charge their direct customers. There is nothing anywhere that guarentees those two prices will ever be the same. Yes, as customers, we might want the SM rate to be at or below what Bay charges, but it's a pure business decision for both Bay and SM whether the SM rate is lower, same or higher.
There is no deception at all here. SM and Bay are both perfectly upfront about what their print prices are. If you don't like the SM/Bay prices, you are free to shop around and order a different way. In reality, you need to look at what SM is offering with it's Bay-printed prices and decide relative to your other competitive options if that's a good deal for you or not. If you would rather self-fullfill and use Bay direct, you are free to do that. You will give up a lot of SM functionality when you do that (shopping cart, free customer service, 100% satisfaction print guarentee, etc...), but if giving those up and going with the Bay direct prices is better for your business situation, then you are free to do that.
FYI, I think it's a reasonable question to ask SM why their Bay printed prices are higher than Bay's own direct prices and see how they respond, but I don't think anyone is doing anything deceptive here.
I have seen this post, but never investigated the pricing. I just went on Bay photo's website and priced out color corrected (on luster) an 8X10, 10X15, 16X24, and a 24X36.
The prices for the 8X10, and 10X15 were lower through SmugMug? The prices for the 16X24, and 24X36 were the same?
Am I missing something here? Is the price differences mentioned on other products rather than standard prints?
There is no deception at all here. SM and Bay are both perfectly upfront about what their print prices are. If you don't like the SM/Bay prices, you are free to shop around and order a different way.
Smugmug doesn't dictate who we order our prints from. They don't even dictate what shopping cart we use.
I am just curious as to why a few bucks would make such a difference to some of you. Are you not following the basic rule of business and passing your costs along to your clients? What do you guys do when you buy a lens or camera body or even rent a studio?
It honestly sounds like some of you need to rethink that business plan if the costs of prints are the difference between making money and losing money.
I am just curious as to why a few bucks would make such a difference to some of you. Are you not following the basic rule of business and passing your costs along to your clients? What do you guys do when you buy a lens or camera body or even rent a studio?
It honestly sounds like some of you need to rethink that business plan if the costs of prints are the difference between making money and losing money.
This is the stupidest thing I've ever heard in business, and the only other place I've ever heard it from was a franchise company that was stealing money from their franchisees.
Costs are costs, period. And every penny does count in ANY business. And any business that has the leeway to operate otherwise isn't running at a 100% efficiency and is leaving money on the table. And that in my opinion, is bad business. Overhead has never been good for anyone but the few select people padding their pockets.
While I don't use Bay or EZ Prints I am a vary happy customer of Smugmug and I can't even believe this thread is here. If you are unhappy with the service switch to a power account and don't sell through smugmug. If that doesn't work for you cancel your account and go some place else. I've heard nothing but good things about smugmug and have nothing but good things to say about them. I've tried other photo hosting sites and by far smugmug is the best.
Overhead has never been good for anyone but the few select people padding their pockets.
What business are you in that you do not have overhead costs?
Our cameras aren't free, our lenses aren't free, our lights aren't free, our travel isn't free, our studio isn't free, the photographers who work for us don't do it for free and those are just some of our costs.
So please let me know how you manage to run your photography business for free and make your living doing it?
What business are you in that you do not have overhead costs?
Our cameras aren't free, our lenses aren't free, our lights aren't free, our travel isn't free, our studio isn't free, the photographers who work for us don't do it for free and those are just some of our costs.
So please let me know how you manage to run your photography business for free and make your living doing it?
He's not saying he has no overhead. He's saying more overhead is worse than less overhead. Surely, you agree that lower costs are better for your business and every cost matters. That's
all Samir was saying in response to a post that was arguing that higher costs didn't matter.
He's not saying he has no overhead. He's saying more overhead is worse than less overhead. Surely, you agree that lower costs are better for your business and every cost matters. That's
all Samir was saying in response to a post that was arguing that higher costs didn't matter.
Yep, dead on. Couldn't have replied better myself.
I believe the hang-up in this situation regarding differences in Bay Photo's direct prices verses Bay Photo through SM is that the current SM pricing structure APPEARS to be deceptive on SmugMug's behalf. I'm not saying that is the intent or even what is occurring, but, Andy and SM folks, as you well know, perception is everything with the customer (the customer's perception is your reality).
The $150 per annum and the shipping charges aside, SM markets to their Pro customers that they provide services (and many bells and whistles) for 15% of sales. THEN one looks closely at the SM Bay print price list, does a bit of quick calculation in one's head and realizes the final cost is actually much more than 15% when compared to Bay's direct prices.
For an 8x10, lustre, no color correction, SM is charging a total of 39.11% over Bay's direct prices, which is a total of 54.11% when the 15% fee is added.
For a 12x12, lustre, no color correction, SM is charging a total of 56.64% over Bay's direct prices, which is a total of 80.64%.
As a previous poster stated, one would think that SM would negotiate a contract with Bay to, at minimum, offer direct pricing to SM Pros, and many would further expect SM to work out an economy of scale (volume) contract with Bay (I would fall into that category) to include a clause in either contract that SM's prices from Bay will never be greater than Bay's direct pricing.
Given the above, my perception is: 1. SM needs new contract negotiators or 2. SM is misleading their Pro customers with an inaccurate, yet promoted, fee structure of 15% when in reality the amount is much greater.
The issue to me as a POTENTIAL Pro sales customer is not what SM does with the money (profit, poor negotiations or other) and is not about all the bells and whistles SM offers for the fees (whatever the actual fees might be) but is now an issue of trust.
I fully expected SM's Bay photo pricing to be Bay's direct pricing plus an across-the-board, flat % fee. The disparity between my expectations as a potential customer (currently trialing Pro) and reality has altered my perception of SM regarding operations and relations at this level.
I haven't decided where I will land yet based on pricing and trust at this level but have been a regular SM account user for two years. Is a 54% (8x10) or an 81% (12x12) product up-charge worth SM services for my business model and volume? Dunno yet. Is the feeling/perception that I am being deceived worth SM services? THAT I haven't decided. However, the SM heroes have rocked with all my regular account dealings over the last two years.
I'm curious, though: did you guys at SM properly and independently focus group and test market this pricing structure and mktg language before rollout? 'Cause I gotta say it will shock me yet again if the answer is "yes".
Well written, I agree.
The pricing is inconsistent between Bay via Smug and Bay Direct. In some cases it is favorable, as Sam points out, but in other cases it is unfavorable. I discovered this today when I realized that with color correction disabled, 8x12 metallic prints and 8x12 watercolor giclee are 30% more expensive via Smug.
It is disheartening to learn that I could simply order these prints directly from Bay for a significant cost savings. I've always been under the impression, due to an older post by Andy in this thread, that Smug essentially passed on the Bay pricing directly to its Pro users.
As nonconformist notes above, one might wonder why Bay can't provide better pricing given the amount of business that Smug generates on their behalf. At the very least, it would seem only fair that the prices match what Bay offers to their customers direct.
At the end of the day, I selected Smug for the use of a high quality pro lab with the simplicity and ease of ordering prints via the web. It is, however, difficult to justify the 30% price difference when one is already paying a 15% markup.
Don't get me wrong, I love the Smug team and think they try very hard to be fully transparent, but this discrepancy does tarnish my opinion. It might be best to add a disclaimer to the Bay pricing on the Smug site indicating pricing varies by product for X, Y, and Z reasons.
I haven't read the entire thread, but I don't see people considering SM support when dealing with Bay Photo prints. You could order directly from BP, but you can then also do all the leg work and order triaging that SM does for you. In the end, how much is your time worth to sit on the phone with BP, exchange emails, etc when SM does it for you instead?
Canon 7D and some stuff that sticks on the end of it.
I haven't read the entire thread, but I don't see people considering SM support when dealing with Bay Photo prints. You could order directly from BP, but you can then also do all the leg work and order triaging that SM does for you. In the end, how much is your time worth to sit on the phone with BP, exchange emails, etc when SM does it for you instead?
No one is disputing the value the SM adds to the process. Presumably, this was factored into their business model and is why they take 15%. I have no issues with the 15% for the service SM provides. It's the unfortunate price discrepancies between Bay direct and Bay via Smug.
Let me see... I have been using a system in which I pay $99 a month, have the highest print prices in the market and take a 12% commission... And , what is the problem here? How is SM a ripp off? I imagine that even if SM would be free, no commission and no cost for prints people will still find faults some where.
Let me see... I have been using a system in which I pay $99 a month, have the highest print prices in the market and take a 12% commission... And , what is the problem here? How is SM a ripp off? I imagine that even if SM would be free, no commission and no cost for prints people will still find faults some where.
Ok... I think your service is a rip off. But back to the original point, whether something is a rip off or not is a rather subjective measure don't you think? I hope its safe to assume you don't feel your service is ripping you off, even though I obviously do. And while I don't think Smugmug is ripping people off, I don't see the value for the money spent, which is why I'm with Exposure Manager instead. Lower print prices, lower commissions, great customer service, self-fulfill items, etc. More for less in my view. But that's my view. Since both companies have loyal subscribers its safe to assume some agree, some don't.
But a valid point was made in why Bay Photo prints would be priced higher AND also a 15% commission on top of that. I understand the need to make a profit, but it does appear to be double-dipping in the profit department, and I think that is where the ruckus is about.
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I've heard it this way: "Having an expectation is like making an appointment with disappointment."
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service and all the many other perks we get. I've been 100%
satisfied since 2004.
http://www.datewealthypeople.com
It amuses me to no end that people complain about paying others for services received, yet want to be paid royally for services they have rendered.
I know I get more than my 150 bucks worth from this place - much of what I receive can't be measured in dollars and cents, anyway.
www.SaraPiazza.com - Edgartown News - Trad Diary - Facebook
Amen. I think $150 for a pro account is a bargain. And I am totally okay with the 15% commission that SM takes. For that I am getting unlimited hosting, full customization of my website, 24/7 help at the dgrin forums, excellent customer service. The print quality is amazing and I don't have to worry about shipping, printing, whether the customer is happy (due to SM's guarantee) etc. I for one, am supremely happy with smugmug. Keep up the great work guys!!!
Cheers,
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We pay $millions every month to our pros (I know, because I pay it out) - we're not screwing anyone, promise! I've also addressed your very same post here
http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?p=1623068#post1623068
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I took a look at fotki - the photos look like total crap over there.
www.SaraPiazza.com - Edgartown News - Trad Diary - Facebook
their galleries are no where near here... but to "sell photos" for event photographers etc it works great. I also have access to options to things some people do not have. It needs work but the costs are WAY lower... and the service and site for the basics is incredible. Display wise it's no different then here though "quality".
The $150 per annum and the shipping charges aside, SM markets to their Pro customers that they provide services (and many bells and whistles) for 15% of sales. THEN one looks closely at the SM Bay print price list, does a bit of quick calculation in one's head and realizes the final cost is actually much more than 15% when compared to Bay's direct prices.
For an 8x10, lustre, no color correction, SM is charging a total of 39.11% over Bay's direct prices, which is a total of 54.11% when the 15% fee is added.
For a 12x12, lustre, no color correction, SM is charging a total of 56.64% over Bay's direct prices, which is a total of 80.64%.
As a previous poster stated, one would think that SM would negotiate a contract with Bay to, at minimum, offer direct pricing to SM Pros, and many would further expect SM to work out an economy of scale (volume) contract with Bay (I would fall into that category) to include a clause in either contract that SM's prices from Bay will never be greater than Bay's direct pricing.
Given the above, my perception is: 1. SM needs new contract negotiators or 2. SM is misleading their Pro customers with an inaccurate, yet promoted, fee structure of 15% when in reality the amount is much greater.
The issue to me as a POTENTIAL Pro sales customer is not what SM does with the money (profit, poor negotiations or other) and is not about all the bells and whistles SM offers for the fees (whatever the actual fees might be) but is now an issue of trust.
I fully expected SM's Bay photo pricing to be Bay's direct pricing plus an across-the-board, flat % fee. The disparity between my expectations as a potential customer (currently trialing Pro) and reality has altered my perception of SM regarding operations and relations at this level.
I haven't decided where I will land yet based on pricing and trust at this level but have been a regular SM account user for two years. Is a 54% (8x10) or an 81% (12x12) product up-charge worth SM services for my business model and volume? Dunno yet. Is the feeling/perception that I am being deceived worth SM services? THAT I haven't decided. However, the SM heroes have rocked with all my regular account dealings over the last two years.
I'm curious, though: did you guys at SM properly and independently focus group and test market this pricing structure and mktg language before rollout? 'Cause I gotta say it will shock me yet again if the answer is "yes".
There is no deception at all here. SM and Bay are both perfectly upfront about what their print prices are. If you don't like the SM/Bay prices, you are free to shop around and order a different way. In reality, you need to look at what SM is offering with it's Bay-printed prices and decide relative to your other competitive options if that's a good deal for you or not. If you would rather self-fullfill and use Bay direct, you are free to do that. You will give up a lot of SM functionality when you do that (shopping cart, free customer service, 100% satisfaction print guarentee, etc...), but if giving those up and going with the Bay direct prices is better for your business situation, then you are free to do that.
FYI, I think it's a reasonable question to ask SM why their Bay printed prices are higher than Bay's own direct prices and see how they respond, but I don't think anyone is doing anything deceptive here.
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I have seen this post, but never investigated the pricing. I just went on Bay photo's website and priced out color corrected (on luster) an 8X10, 10X15, 16X24, and a 24X36.
The prices for the 8X10, and 10X15 were lower through SmugMug? The prices for the 16X24, and 24X36 were the same?
Am I missing something here? Is the price differences mentioned on other products rather than standard prints?
Sam
Smugmug doesn't dictate who we order our prints from. They don't even dictate what shopping cart we use.
I am just curious as to why a few bucks would make such a difference to some of you. Are you not following the basic rule of business and passing your costs along to your clients? What do you guys do when you buy a lens or camera body or even rent a studio?
It honestly sounds like some of you need to rethink that business plan if the costs of prints are the difference between making money and losing money.
Website
Costs are costs, period. And every penny does count in ANY business. And any business that has the leeway to operate otherwise isn't running at a 100% efficiency and is leaving money on the table. And that in my opinion, is bad business. Overhead has never been good for anyone but the few select people padding their pockets.
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I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=42.992645,-78.962012
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Save on your own SmugMug account. Just enter Coupon code i2J0HIOcEElwI at checkout
What business are you in that you do not have overhead costs?
Our cameras aren't free, our lenses aren't free, our lights aren't free, our travel isn't free, our studio isn't free, the photographers who work for us don't do it for free and those are just some of our costs.
So please let me know how you manage to run your photography business for free and make your living doing it?
Website
all Samir was saying in response to a post that was arguing that higher costs didn't matter.
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Well written, I agree.
The pricing is inconsistent between Bay via Smug and Bay Direct. In some cases it is favorable, as Sam points out, but in other cases it is unfavorable. I discovered this today when I realized that with color correction disabled, 8x12 metallic prints and 8x12 watercolor giclee are 30% more expensive via Smug.
It is disheartening to learn that I could simply order these prints directly from Bay for a significant cost savings. I've always been under the impression, due to an older post by Andy in this thread, that Smug essentially passed on the Bay pricing directly to its Pro users.
As nonconformist notes above, one might wonder why Bay can't provide better pricing given the amount of business that Smug generates on their behalf. At the very least, it would seem only fair that the prices match what Bay offers to their customers direct.
At the end of the day, I selected Smug for the use of a high quality pro lab with the simplicity and ease of ordering prints via the web. It is, however, difficult to justify the 30% price difference when one is already paying a 15% markup.
Don't get me wrong, I love the Smug team and think they try very hard to be fully transparent, but this discrepancy does tarnish my opinion. It might be best to add a disclaimer to the Bay pricing on the Smug site indicating pricing varies by product for X, Y, and Z reasons.
No one is disputing the value the SM adds to the process. Presumably, this was factored into their business model and is why they take 15%. I have no issues with the 15% for the service SM provides. It's the unfortunate price discrepancies between Bay direct and Bay via Smug.
Ok... I think your service is a rip off. But back to the original point, whether something is a rip off or not is a rather subjective measure don't you think? I hope its safe to assume you don't feel your service is ripping you off, even though I obviously do. And while I don't think Smugmug is ripping people off, I don't see the value for the money spent, which is why I'm with Exposure Manager instead. Lower print prices, lower commissions, great customer service, self-fulfill items, etc. More for less in my view. But that's my view. Since both companies have loyal subscribers its safe to assume some agree, some don't.
But a valid point was made in why Bay Photo prints would be priced higher AND also a 15% commission on top of that. I understand the need to make a profit, but it does appear to be double-dipping in the profit department, and I think that is where the ruckus is about.
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Yes, you do.
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An IPO seems to ruin any good small business. Let's hope it doesn't come to that. Look at Linkedin what a disaster that will become.
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