Where are the other four finalists?
CharlesHB4
Registered Users Posts: 7 Beginner grinner
Where are the other four finalists?
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When I read your rules before sending my previous message to you, the rules said that the winner must be prepared to selct the 10 finalists. When I clicked on your question mark, the number ten had been removed? Did the rules change? If so when? As of 20 minutes ago the rules said 10 finalists. Now the number 10 is missing? Is it me? My browser? My computer? My ISP? Or did you change the rules within the last 20 minutes?
Thanks ... no offense meant ... I'm just confused.
no worries, up to 10. i clarified the rules. in this case, the co-judge and i both felt that these six were the best of the lot.
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No disrespect intended I just think it works good having 10, more of choice for the voters.
Ashley
ashleyharding.smugmug.com
The benefit of winning a challenge is that you get to vote along with Andy on the finalist for the next challenge. For this challenge it was my opinion and Andy agreed that there just weren't 10 photos that wowed us. It is just my opinion and what do I know?. The challenges should be more about improving and having fun with the particular topic and not be taken so seriously. I felt that too many folks just went out looking for dirt
and in my eye they weren't that creative. Once again it is just my opinion.
I did not expect to make the finals as I saw so many of what I thought were good ones go up, but I do agree with Ashley.
I feel like the rules can be used, they are not rules, they are things to be used to justify deviating from the "rules".
I also feel insulted!
And I have not been angry over this challenge before. Before I was hurt. I did not notice the number of finalists, but I did notice that some did not make it that I was very impressed with. Now that I find out why, I am angry.
Also, I feel like an assumption has been stated on the amt of work I put into the challenge.
OK............
ginger (And I know you all have a perfect right to not care how I feel, or if I am angry or not. Just as I have a right to be angry.)
I was about to post some things I worked on this afternoon and tonight for the next challenge.
I think I will just post them on Landscape and think on this.
And whatever Ashley says, I probably agree with her.
And, for that matter, I am more of an observer than a creative person from the standpoint of thinking things up. That is one reason I don't do still lives.
I think of myself as an artist, but not as a person who is particularly "creative"...................whatever that means.
No one is entitled to place in the challenges. To get all worked up that there are not a certain amount of finalists just shows an improper view of the challenge.
In photography, it is often good to mix things up, do things different, get a new perspective on things. And here I believe is a good example of that. The judges, for right or wrong, felt that there were only a certain amount of photos they could honestly recommend. I know this feeling. Having to pick 10 when you feel there are only 6 is totally lame and feels intellectually and artistically dishonest.
So there are fewer finalist than usual, so what, will that change the results, no, it just means that a small handful of photos wont be taking votes away from the better photos. Now before this gets the nickers in a twist too tightly, consider this...
There are always better photos. Irregardless of how much time or effort we put into a photo, this does not imbue a photo with value for that challenge. The value is placed on it by the judges (customers, audience, or what have you), and if a judge does not see the value, then for that challenge, it just doesn't have any. Something is only worth what others are willing to pay for it. Gold would be worthless too if no one wanted it.
Now does that mean the photo *is* worthless and the effort was in vain? Absolutely not! It just means that the photo needs to find another audience or another time. I will illustrate with an example near and dear to me...
The TV show Firefly was in my opinion one of the best SciFi shows out there. It only lasted a few weeks before being canceled. Does this mean the show was bad, no way, like I said, it was great. But the time and place for it was apparently wrong. Just because it was "voted off the island" doesn't mean it was the worst show on TV, that title goes to the show Andromeda hehehe. It later went on to be made into a movie. You can most likely think of many examples where something failed in one aspect and yet succeded wildly in another (think Sticky Notes, Pop Rocks, or Bill Gates)
The challenge is for learning, sharing, and growing. If you get so worked up about placing, winning, and rigid rules, you miss the point, and the challenge is really of no benefit to you, you would be better off not participating.
Remember, you are entitled to nothing at all except to participate and learn to deal with rejection, which in itself is a very valuable skill to learn.
"Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions." - fortune cookie
And I thought it was VERY creative, excellently photographed, and a very different take on dirt...
I'm disappointed not to be able to vote on it.
http://www.twitter.com/deegolden
...... so.... you can easily dismiss what I'm about to say.
I didn't think for one minute that my over-exposed piggy would be picked but I could have quite easily picked 10 entries... and they wouldn't have included a snap or two that I see up yonder.
My own personal take on these challenges is that it is all about participation. Nothing more. When someone takes the plunge to enter a snaparoo for all of dgrin to see.... they've already "won". To say that you and Andy weren't "wowed" by some 26 or so other entries....is... never mind.
Everyone learns and grows at their own pace. To dis' the aggregate of the challenge entries by openingly saying that the other 26 (in your opinion
I'll still look for some "nature's colors" snaps but since "wowing" is more important than participation I'll post them over in the landscape thingee.
Like I said... I'm just an "outsider" and a "hack". You can file this post under "Rants from a Crappy Outsider Photog".
Peace
Dan
"The camera is an instrument that teaches people how to see without a camera." - Dorothea Lange
I had the misfortune of being a judge for one of these challenges and it sucked (being a judge not the pictures). I would only enter one of these challenges if I had a really sucky picture that wouldn't win. Anything as long as I don't have to be a judge again. :puke1
I have entered a few challenges and contests. Sometimes I win and most of the time I lose. Big deal!!!!
The whole idea is to go out take some pictures and hopefully learn and grow from the experience. Winning or being a finalist doesn't mean anything. Somehow some folks keep getting caught up with this stuff.
I think the challenges should be changed. Lets eliminate the judges. No more finalists and no more winners. Lets just announce the topic and go out and take the pictures. That will eliminate the furor that seems to follow these challenges around in their current format.
http://behret.smugmug.com/ NANPA member
How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
Mike,
One of those pictures didn't belong on this site so I removed it. Remember this is a 'G' rated site.
All joking aside, the judging and voting here is about the same as on any other photography site. I truly believe the judges and voters do the best they can and I respect their collective efforts. The finally determination is subjective and one that I seldom agree with. So what.
http://behret.smugmug.com/ NANPA member
How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
But....but.... but... I agree with you.
Sorry if I rocked the boat. This is a kewl place... no denying that. What I read sure sounded like a "crap" reference was being made. I checked it again to make sure it wasn't a lack of sleep or sumtin'...... nope.... sure sounded like the entries were being called "crap" to me.
I do what I do to have fun.... meet lots of interesting people in the real world.... and every so often I actually take a decent snapshot or two. The internets (sic) can be a bit strange at times. Hard to understand. I read what I read and saw what I saw. And what I saw was a tad bit detrimental to the whole participation thingee. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
Peace
Dan
"The camera is an instrument that teaches people how to see without a camera." - Dorothea Lange
as long as it puts a smile on your face and keeps you warm at night.
http://behret.smugmug.com/ NANPA member
How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
Congratulations to the finalists.
Gus
Ginger you take plenty of photographs that I love and I always tell you such you have no reason to be insulted this time.I am sorry if I did it was not my intention.
Dee.. I am sorry you are disappointed everyone has different tastes and in this case mine obviosly are different than yours. It doesn't mean I am right . I just didn't think it was necessary to put up 10 finalist if I didn't like 10.
The point I want to make is, there are alot of people here that participate in challenges without every thinking they would win and as people have already said "it's all about participation", but for those who don't dream of winning I believe that making the final '10' would be a big thrill...encourage them to enter more challenges here. But by dropping 4 entries in the finals, you reduce the opportunity to thrill some dgrinners.
Thanks Andy and Eric for judging
David
SmugMug API Developer
My Photos
birdman, if you have some to say, say it. with words.
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birdman, again?
i tell you what. you have to make a two-year commitment, spend a couple hours a week on it, week in, week out, never missing a deadline to close a challenge, start a vote, or start a new challenge. and be prepared to take potshots constantly on your integrity. you have to deal with the prizes, getting them, securing them, distributing them. you have set up the threads, monitor them. you have to constantly be reviewing the pics, and the critique threads, so that you can steer the challenge back if the group is struggling for ideas.
if you'd like to press your same issue, you can have a week to think it over.
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Apparently 4 + 1 = what ever Andy wants it to be
I read all the posts here and all that seems to be happening is "lets protect what was picked". Listening to the participants appears to be secondary.
Don't get me wrong this is a good place, (not great, yet). It will never be a great place if you continue to recreate the rules to "how you feel that day". The count should have remained at 10 for this challenge and changed to 5 for challenge 50, if you really felt that 5 were necessary.
All things considered you do a decent job here Andy
It is written right there. I never said I "should" have made the finals. I thought I would when I first did the shot, worked it up different ways, really tried. But then better entries than mine came in.
I knew I would not make the finals, or I would not have picked me over others.
But the inference that I didn't try......................
I put as much time into that entry as I put into my winning shots.
I think, Shay, you are missing at least one of the points. It is not the "fact" I am angry about, it is the "reason" and the "explanation".
Yes, things will change for me, here. They already have.
That is my loss, no one else will care, I have seen that happen over and over, I feel sick about it. But at the same time, I cannot feel the same as I did. Not with the assumptions that are made. About me, and the others, too.
OK, I lack creativity in general, too. And the usage of the "rules", that is unsupportable, IMO. The rules are important when thought to be. How many times has someone written that we should read the rules. The "rules", they are the reason photos have been removed. I know that in olden times it was said that there were not enough entries to justify 10 picks. I have tried hard, and consistently, to keep the entries up. If not for me, then for others who have all tried hard and deserve to be a finalist.
I guess that mattered not.
ginger (I have not complained about this process since it was changed to the format the challenge is now in. This is not an "old" issue with me. This is new. And the insult and the hurt to others, well, I think it was unnecessary.)
I have, I repeat, with the except of maybe one challenge, I have participated in every one since I started doing it over a year ago. I have had my feelings hurt, I have continued to participate..........
This is a new one to me, sorry it happened. I am the one I am hurting by being upset, but I feel what I feel, think what I think. I am expressing it, as some of you who do not enter the challenges, or do, might express their feelings/thoughts in other arenas.
Yes, Andy, I know what it takes. I also know that you must get some satisfaction from this thankless job or you wouldn't do it. I stood up strongly for you in the last "rant" thing.
This is totally different. And I think it was a huge mistake. I could make comparisions to other things, not here, but I won't. Huge mistakes are made all the time, it is often in the explanations and the coverups that things get much worse.
sigh.
if you read the rules, i've said from the beginning of challenge time (see rule 5) i will be host for the contests. as host, my decision on submissions, voting, and any irregularities, will be final. it was clear, to both 4labs and myself, that there would not be ten finalists - and we carefully worked it out between us. this is not a willy-nilly decision process, and to those of you who insist on mocking me, and the process, you are sadly mistaken and i'll brook no more insinuation of such.
i spend a lot of time on the challenges, as the fortnight progresses. here are my final notes on the shots that didn't make it. these comments are real, genuine, and with much forethought. i hope that everyone takes these suggestions to heart, for what they are worth, constructive criticism.
please remember that the challenges are all about learning and growing as photographers, with a friendly spirit of competition. i run them on my own free time, and i do not get paid to do this. i do it for my love of photography.
some of you are making it very hard for me to keep doing this.
seamus - he said it all in his entry
wizard - technically needs exposure help. compositionally, i'm struggling for a focal point - the big items in the front stopo me from appreciating the rest of the photograph
blue snapshots - the half-pig is interesting, certainly dirty. but there's nothing challenging about this shot. i can't even see the swine's face. blue, it's all about faces with animals, okay?
jackie paper - dirty, yes. artistic? no. you took it from eye level, next time, get on your knees, try a different perspective or angle, to make an otherwise boring shot more appealing.
roger - excellent idea, execution would have been better if the background had been in focus more, and something happening out there that i juuuuuuuust had to imagine what it was. maybe a bicyclist. maybe rain. as shot, it's abstracty. could also use some more technical work, it needs contrast and color bumping to enrichen the photograph.
stef - cute.
jamism - dark, not enough details. technically not well lit or sharp. not engaging. yes, dirty. if you're giving me a close up, make it pop, make it engaging, make it exciting, make me go WOW!
pash - i love bws. not this one. the shot is oof, first of all. the composition is central, which isn't always bad, but in this case, is. the sky is bland and boring. the barn is there, but it competes too much with the main subject.
ginger - i'm lost. it's dirty, yes. the expression is good on the man. there's not enough of the scene shown for me to understand what he's doing though, so i'm confused. you've got to give your viewers enough for them to make out "the rest of the story."
digital gopher - it could be a wad of dirt for all i know. and it looks contrived. artistically it doesn't appeal, and though while dirty, it wasn't chosen.
lord vet - very abstracty macro, but i'm not getting the overall dirty feeling. i know it's dirty, but it's not doing it for me.
galla47 - the grafitti is lost in the night shot - bright light is definitely distracting. compositionally, too many competing elements.
the white balance is off, too orange. there's a thread in the hall of wisdom about "nightshot post processing" take a look at it. love the chrysler building in the background
rsi1986 - ditry yes, the compo is boring though, and doesn't hit me in the face. can't really notice the smoke, either, andthat should figure prominently.
gary glass - yup, icky dirty, and timely. but the comp is plain. and i can't make out jack's squashed face, which could have been used as the hook.
mayndi - perspective! get on your knees, bend down, try a different angle. yep, it's dirty but give me a different look at something ordinary like this in order to have it succeed artistically.
scott- a good laugh but not very artistic is it. nice color and i like the footprint in it. toss in a person, with a sad face, shaking their shoes off, and you've got something!
skufuku - a nice setup it is, technically well done. the flowers in the bg imo should be the *entire* bg, as they are they compete for my attention. if you're going to try a pun, you have to really floor the viewer with it. the nice diagonal lines of the tabletop are countered with a plain central compo.
eqiuess - ok a horses hoof is dirty
vandana - compo is plain, it's on theme for sure - but give some thing more interesting when we're in the bedroom, please
hessia - again, the perspective thing. get on the street level for some drama!
risource - dirty puddle. nothing overly exciting.
fotonut - too much hog, not enough surroundings.
imax - needs interest.
snaphappy - converging lines and mud is good, but i'm detracted by the angle of the view. it's too "birds-eye' wish i was closer. this almost made it.
amadeus - dark. confusing. not engaging.
cswinton - i think the idea is very good. technically, the shot suffers from the horizontal (power?) line imo - and, i think it would be better from a step back.
bfjr - trash on the seaside - not to difficult - not challenging enough, compositionally it's challenged and i'm not engaged with this photo.
marks - i either want to be closer, or further. the background, detracts - watch those backgrounds! look at the top middle fo the tallest mushroom, the tree edge is just like a telephone pole sticking out of uncle ernie's head. lovely colors.
birdman photographer - the lighting is a bit off, as is the composition. a clever idea, that could have been made even better with more interesting food dirt, a diagonal swath of light cast in the sink, a little lower perspective...
gina - perspective perspective perspecive
eye-max - a very nice view, technically it's almost great - i think the shot needs some more "punch" to keep me going. it would have made it to the finals with a person in it - not always easy, sometimes you don't have a partner or willing subject, but that's what tripods and timers are for
winger - oh if this had been shot in the "mud-bowl" it would have been picked! i feel "wet" rather than totally "dirty" when viewing it. technically, a fine action sports shot.
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5. i will be host for the contests. as host, my decision on submissions, voting, and any irregularities, will be final.
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coverups? whoo-hooo, "challenge-gate"
crimony, ginger, you are a fine lady, and a wonderful contributor here but you're on thin ice here. i suggest you take a break from this and go shoot some photographs, you are taking this way too seriously.
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Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
if you can't see my my evaluation methods in my post above, then i'm sorry i cannot help you. i do thank you for using words to tell us how you feel, i appreciate it. frankly, i am insulted by what you've said, very much.
tell you what - would you like to run the challenges?
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Well I'd like to thank Andy and previous winners for all the hard work they put in
Come-on you lot stop moaning and get on with taking photographs.
It's a hard job judging these things especially when you know someone is going to disagree. So let's appreciate the job that's being done here instead of moaning- PLEASE!
If you carry on like this, the easiest decision will be not to run the competition.
Brian V.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lordv/
http://www.lordv.smugmug.com/
That prospective customer is far more fickle and not nearly as analytical as the judging in forum here. You could be showing them the most incredible photo, but they don't personally like the color of the shoes the subject in the photo is wearing, so they dump you like a rock, and you find out that they went with another photographers work (who you believe to be inferior to yourself) because that photographers work showed the proper color shoe in their work.
Now, you could get all upset and say that it was only the color of the shoe, and you can shoot any color shoe. But you would be missing the point. People buy what they see, and if they don't see what they are looking for, they move on to other work that will.
There is no point in calling up the lost customer to complain that they made the wrong decision, that they way they chose their photographer was unfair, or to try and convince that that because you put so much work and effort into the photos you showed them that you deserve and maybe even demand that you be chosen. They will most likely hang the phone up on you, glad that they didn't pick you and maybe even logging the caller id number so they don't have to take another call from you in the future.
You see, that scenario just doesn't work. If the customer, for whatever vaporous reason chooses someone else's work over yours, that is their decision, and it is up to you to be big enough to handle that kind of daily rejection. Re-channel your efforts to find customers that will choose your work, or find ways to work that will appeal to the customers that surround you.
The responsibility lies with you, the photographer, not the customers (or judges) to produce work that appeals enough to be chosen. If it is not being chosen, it is no ones fault but your own. The sooner that is learned, the sooner real photographic progress can be made.
"Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions." - fortune cookie
I for one applaud the integrity of the judges for choosing only the pics they did. From my perspective, only three of the entries were worthy of being in the finals.
Let's get over this and move on to the voting and the next challenge.
http://clearwaterphotography.smugmug.com/