Where are the other four finalists?

2

Comments

  • ginger_55ginger_55 Crazy Creek Babe Charleston, SCRegistered Users Posts: 8,416 Major grins
    edited October 18, 2005
    Just for the record, I never once said re this challenge that I was upset at not being chosen, or that I thought I should have been chosen. I have said the opposite.

    I just want to state that for the record. I am NOT upset at not being chosen.

    I have stated why I am upset. I would have to assume that in the responses I am not being addressed, but I do want to set that completely straight. I am NOT, for once, upset at not having been chosen!

    ginger
    After all is said and done, it is the sweet tea.
  • FlyingginaFlyinggina To see and not be seen BostonRegistered Users Posts: 2,639 Major grins
    edited October 18, 2005
    andy wrote:
    sigh.

    if you read the rules, i've said from the beginning of challenge time (see rule 5) i will be host for the contests. as host, my decision on submissions, voting, and any irregularities, will be final. it was clear, to both 4labs and myself, that there would not be ten finalists - and we carefully worked it out between us. this is not a willy-nilly decision process, and to those of you who insist on mocking me, and the process, you are sadly mistaken and i'll brook no more insinuation of such.

    ________________________

    Andy, I want to thank you for taking the time to give us your take on each of the photos that didn't make it to the finals of the challenge. I know you shouldn't have had to do it and that there is no way you can do it for every challenge. But it really helped me here. My disappointment, like that of others, I think, was definitely not that my own effort didn't make the finals but that some of the photos I really liked did not. Which is to take nothing away from the finalists, each of whom did excellent work. Now that I understand better what you were seeing and why you and 4labs made the decisions you did, I do feel better. Honestly, I would not have picked my own this time for reasons other than perspective - or maybe that was it. My entry was too busy IMHO -- which would have been solved (maybe) by getting down at street level and/or thinking more carefully about what I wanted to capture. So you have helped me figure out how I might have made it better, whether or not it would have been a contender. I do hope that your comments have been as helpful to others. We are here to grow as photographers and I, for one, have much to learn.

    So thanks, Andy. Hang in there.
    _______________________________________________
    "A photograph is a secret about a secret. The more it tells you, the less you know." Diane Arbus

    Email
  • HiggmeisterHiggmeister Major grins Reno, NVRegistered Users Posts: 909 Major grins
    edited October 18, 2005
    Congratulations to the finalist and to everyone who entered. You see, all those who entered got something out of it and I did not because I didn't enter (not for any reasons mentioned on this thread, just didn't get time to). I participated by voting and seeing what all of you came up with.

    These challenges are wonderful in that they get us, collectively, to shoot a theme or subject that we wouldn't normally shoot (how many of you would shoot dirt). It gets us to look at something ordinary and create something unique. Not to slight the finalists, but just participation makes you a winner and allows you to showcase what you saw/created. No one should feel demeaned because they participated and didn't make the finals or even win the challenge.

    If you spend time entering other challenge/contests, you will see that it is a subjective process, no matter where you enter (stating the obvious). I have to applaud Andy for giving the synopsis for the ones not picked (way over the call of duty and takes quite a bit of time). But do remember that the judges are human and have their own reasons for picking what they do. It is justified in their eyes, maybe not yours, but that's no reason to demean the process.

    We should take this challenge seriously because we should be putting our best foot forward in our submissions. Each entry should be well thought out and critically critiqued by ourselves before placing a shot into the challenge. This, in itself, makes you a winner. Those that participate definitely get more out of it than those that don't. Isn't this what it's all about?

    I'll get off my shoebox now as I didn't plan on writing all this.

    Congrats again,
    Chris

    A picture is but words to the eyes.
    Comments are always welcome.

    www.pbase.com/Higgmeister


  • SandySandy Major grins West Hollywood, CARegistered Users Posts: 762 Major grins
    edited October 18, 2005
    Here is my take on this matter, there are times I feel that my photo or someone elses photo should have been chosen. However a judge is a person qualified to to pass critical judgement according to Webster's. In this case it is Andy and the previous winner. I believe the residual benefit of the contest is to compete and to improve the quality of your work. I may not win a contest, but I am delighted by the progress I have made with the support of people I have never met, who are willing to answer my questions and evaluate my work.
  • wholenewlightwholenewlight Press Any Key Lancaster, PennsylvaniaRegistered Users Posts: 1,529 Major grins
    edited October 18, 2005
    Sandy wrote:
    Here is my take on this matter, there are times I feel that my photo or someone elses photo should have been chosen. However a judge is a person qualified to to pass critical judgement according to Webster's. In this case it is Andy and the previous winner. I believe the residual benefit of the contest is to compete and to improve the quality of your work. I may not win a contest, but I am delighted by the progress I have made with the support of people I have never met, who are willing to answer my questions and evaluate my work.
    15524779-Ti.gif
    what Sandy said . . .

    I've been gone for a few days (sailing on the Chesapeake and other fun). I feel like I've missed out on all the controversy:): .

    Too much wasted time worrying about a game - shoot, have fun, get better, have fun, enter the challenge, have fun, get picked (or not), have fun, try again, have fun. . . did I mention, have fun.

    When I win the powerball lottery tomorrow night, I'm paying Andy and the other mods for their good work - I promiserolleyes1.gif
    john w

    I knew, of course, that trees and plants had roots, stems, bark, branches and foliage that reached up toward the light. But I was coming to realize that the real magician was light itself.
    Edward Steichen

  • Trish323Trish323 I Shutter...to think. FLRegistered Users Posts: 908 Major grins
    edited October 18, 2005
    How 'bout somebody move all this ..stuff..to another forum...real pain to have to scroll about a mile to view shots to vote on
  • SnapHappySnapHappy Major grins Durham bred London lived.Registered Users Posts: 328 Major grins
    edited October 18, 2005
    Good call Trish. I tried to divert it earlier on but to no avail. :D
  • amadeusamadeus Major grins Registered Users Posts: 2,125 Major grins
    edited October 18, 2005
    andy wrote:


    amadeus - dark. confusing. not engaging.

    .
    its a picture of my basement sump pump in the floor with an inch of dirty water covering it what do expect...

    in my opinion, since the challenge still isn't huge in numbers, you should just make all of them finalists and let people vote on all of them. less work for the moderators, and you avoid all of the above criticism. you have to admit andy that if you start it with a statement that 10 finalists will be chosen and then change it to 6 it kind of seems funny.

    its not the end of the world however. I like the challenge, its almost a no brainer on a photography website. stimulates interest. loosen up a little and let the pictures fly. the time restrictions are good as it hopefully prevents plagarism and such.

    my 2 cents.

    amadeus mozart.
  • DavidTODavidTO Mod Emeritus Thousand Oaks, CARegistered Users, Retired Mod Posts: 19,160 Major grins
    edited October 18, 2005
    I've been staying out of this, but I find that there is one thing that I would like to add.

    Andy's a nice guy. He works hard. He does his best.

    Pay him the courtesy of treating him with the respect that he's earned for all the hard work he's put in. Piling on him and the challenge is hurtful to our community that we've built here. Andy has made himself fully available to all of us...so if you have a question, ask him. Just don't attack him. The challenge is really meaningless in the long run. Have fun and learn. And in the meantime, let's put treating each other with respect first.
    Moderator Emeritus
    Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
  • AndyAndy Bicameral New YorkRegistered Users Posts: 50,154 Major grins
    edited October 18, 2005
    amadeus wrote:

    my 2 cents.

    heya, amadeus - thanks for your comments. since you gave 2cents, i'm going to give you some change lol3.gif - so yeah, your shot was "dirty" but technically it was too dark, and so after viewing it several times and couldn't make it out, i had to cull it from the list.

    hey, i'm going to be shooting near the epicenter of flugistan next week!
  • amadeusamadeus Major grins Registered Users Posts: 2,125 Major grins
    edited October 18, 2005
    andy wrote:
    heya, amadeus - thanks for your comments. since you gave 2cents, i'm going to give you some change lol3.gif - so yeah, your shot was "dirty" but technically it was too dark, and so after viewing it several times and couldn't make it out, i had to cull it from the list.

    hey, i'm going to be shooting near the epicenter of flugistan next week!
    its funny. at home I knew it was a stinker, but at work on a different monitor, the picture was kind of cool as there was a little more life to it with the added clarity and color.

    enter flugistan at your own risk...
  • AndyAndy Bicameral New YorkRegistered Users Posts: 50,154 Major grins
    edited October 18, 2005
    amadeus wrote:
    its funny. at home I knew it was a stinker, but at work on a different monitor, the picture was kind of cool as there was a little more life to it with the added clarity and color.

    enter flugistan at your own risk...

    tuesday morning 6am if you want to meet for a kawfee just holler ear.gif
  • RogerRoger Big grins Lisbon, PortugalRegistered Users Posts: 48 Big grins
    edited October 18, 2005
    First, just like Ginger I want to say I am not upset for not being chosen, I just do it for fun and, just like Andy, for the love of photography.

    I consider myself as an advanced amateur as I have an education on Professional Photograpy (so I must know what it is all about) and have even had some published work.
    So I will start with answering Andy's opinion on my pic (great job Andy for the exhaustive task of evaluating every pic : thumb , it just does not mean I always have the same point of view....)
    andy wrote:
    roger - excellent idea, execution would have been better if the background had been in focus more, and something happening out there that i juuuuuuuust had to imagine what it was. maybe a bicyclist. maybe rain. as shot, it's abstracty. could also use some more technical work, it needs contrast and color bumping to enrichen the photograph.
    Regarding post processing, I did that contrast/colour bumping and it is visible on my monitor (supposedly calibrated and profiled.... maybe I should check it out?).
    Technically, the background is out of focus on purpose to give a somewhat soft dreamy look to contrast with the sharp focus on the dust... in fact out there was really nothing interesting, just cars and apartment buildings (see the imagination irony?). It was not meant to tell a story but to give a certain feeling (just like any abstarct painting, you know).
    This same observation also applies to your view on Ginger's: it is not meant to tell a whole story but to hand over some feelings...
    4labs wrote:
    Hi Ashley,
    The benefit of winning a challenge is that you get to vote along with Andy on the finalist for the next challenge. For this challenge it was my opinion and Andy agreed that there just weren't 10 photos that wowed us. It is just my opinion and what do I know?. The challenges should be more about improving and having fun with the particular topic and not be taken so seriously. I felt that too many folks just went out looking for dirt
    and in my eye they weren't that creative. Once again it is just my opinion.

    Having the selected pics in mind (creativity? there are some I cannot really see it anywhere), these comments sound quite a snobbery, some pseudo-intelectual arrogance that unfortunately has infected many of the photography ambiances (in the Net as well as in the 'real world') I have always tried to run away from.
    It applies also to Shay's vision that, besides, looks too mercantilist/mercenary although it might be true regarding some so called 'professional' photography.

    Overall, I think we must not be so 'professional' judging here on the challenges, as I thought that this was not really what they were meant for, like Andy said, helping people develop their photography skills and this is not the way to do it but mostly the opposite.

    Roger
  • 4labs4labs Major grins New YorkRegistered Users Posts: 2,089 Major grins
    edited October 18, 2005
    Roger wrote:
    First, just like Ginger I want to say I am not upset for not being chosen, I just do it for fun and, just like Andy, for the love of photography.

    I consider myself as an advanced amateur as I have an education on Professional Photograpy (so I must know what it is all about) and have even had some published work.
    So I will start with answering Andy's opinion on my pic (great job Andy for the exhaustive task of evaluating every pic : thumb , it just does not mean I always have the same point of view....)

    Regarding post processing, I did that contrast/colour bumping and it is visible on my monitor (supposedly calibrated and profiled.... maybe I should check it out?).
    Technically, the background is out of focus on purpose to give a somewhat soft dreamy look to contrast with the sharp focus on the dust... in fact out there was really nothing interesting, just cars and apartment buildings (see the imagination irony?). It was not meant to tell a story but to give a certain feeling (just like any abstarct painting, you know).
    This same observation also applies to your view on Ginger's: it is not meant to tell a whole story but to hand over some feelings...



    Having the selected pics in mind (creativity? there are some I cannot really see it anywhere), these comments sound quite a snobbery, some pseudo-intelectual arrogance that unfortunately has infected many of the photography ambiances (in the Net as well as in the 'real world') I have always tried to run away from.
    It applies also to Shay's vision that, besides, looks too mercantilist/mercenary although it might be true regarding some so called 'professional' photography.

    Overall, I think we must not be so 'professional' judging here on the challenges, as I thought that this was not really what they were meant for, like Andy said, helping people develop their photography skills and this is not the way to do it but mostly the opposite.

    Roger
    Hey Roger... I believe that everyone has a right to voice their opinion so I want to thank you for voicing yours. This has really been a great few weeks for me , firstly I have a newborn ,I won a Kodak Picture of the Day, I won a challenge and now I have been called a pseudo intellectual, something I have never been called nor will I ever be again. My comments were simply my point of view and I will be the first to admit I am far from being qualified as an art critic, I am just an unemployed 40 year old with 4 dogs and a baby I just happen to be fortunate to win a challenge and therefore the opportunity to judge.

    as an aside I want to thank Andy for taking the time to critique all the photos, he is a better man than I as I would not have bothered as it has been stated ad nausium for everyone to lighten up and not take everything as a personal attack on your ability as a photographer. I would hope that everyone who posts a photograph to a challenge loves the photograph themselves which is all that really matters.
  • thegreeneggthegreenegg Artsy but not fartsy 46° 6'14.88"N 60°15'2.83"WRegistered Users Posts: 551 Major grins
    edited October 18, 2005
    Comments to the challengers
    I like your comments very much.
    Makes me wish I had an idea for this challenge and entered.
    It shows that you are definetly the guy for the job. Why everyone will not agree with your decisions, lets face it nothing that's easy, they must realize the thought that you put in to picking the entries in the finals.
    I didn't know everyone would be so touchy on this subject. But reading the thread I think most people made really good points or were trying to lighten the mood.
    I just wish that people could discuss without getting so angry and hurt, but alas nothing is quite that simple.
    Congrads to those who posted for the competition!
    Congrads to those who made the finals!!!!
    Its hard over an electronic media to understand how people say things and I think that is where the confusion lies.
    Hope you all have a good day.
    Ashley
    Green is the way to be!
    ashleyharding.smugmug.com
  • behr655behr655 Major grins Merchantville, NJRegistered Users Posts: 552 Major grins
    edited October 18, 2005
    I can't believe this has gone to 5 pages.headscratch.gif Really shouldn't have gone past 2 or 3 posts IMHO.

    Bear
  • Shay StephensShay Stephens Artist in Residence New YorkRegistered Users Posts: 3,165 Major grins
    edited October 18, 2005
    That long zoom sure looks like a machine gun...
    Cool, I have a new alter ego / secret identity now hehehe

    cambo.jpg
    Roger wrote:
    It applies also to Shay's vision that, besides, looks too mercantilist/mercenary although it might be true regarding some so called 'professional' photography.
    Creator of Dgrin's "Last Photographer Standing" contest
    "Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions." - fortune cookie
  • AndyAndy Bicameral New YorkRegistered Users Posts: 50,154 Major grins
    edited October 18, 2005
    Cool, I have a new alter ego / secret identity now hehehe

    cambo.jpg


    lol3.giflol3.giflol3.gif
  • eye-maxeye-max Canadian eh WinnipegRegistered Users Posts: 130 Major grins
    edited October 18, 2005
    to funny
    cambo.jpg

    rolleyes1.gifrolleyes1.gifrolleyes1.gifrolleyes1.gif
    max
  • wingerwinger Major grins Lombard, ILRegistered Users Posts: 694 Major grins
    edited October 18, 2005
    I will have to say I do feel a little sad when I dont make the cut. I havent participated in to many challenges, for various reasons ( I take the shot I dont post it, I post it to late, school, work, other photography duties)
    Althought every week I look and intend to participate. Sometimes I wonder "do they just not like sports" or what the deal is.

    But this made me feel better:
    "winger - oh if this had been shot in the "mud-bowl" it would have been picked! i feel "wet" rather than totally "dirty" when viewing it. technically, a fine action sports shot."

    So at least now I can pick up my wounded ego to try a couple of more challenges ( I realise im WAY to sensative to do photograhpy full time).

    40139750-M-1.jpg

    40169825-M-1.jpg

    I guess the lesson learned is think about the audience, much like a public speech.

    Thanks andy, just looking at other peoples photos helps, that is why I surf forums like here, FM and SS.
  • bfjrbfjr Which Way Did They Go Playa Del ReyRegistered Users Posts: 10,980 Major grins
    edited October 18, 2005
    behr655 wrote:
    I can't believe this has gone to 5 pages.headscratch.gif Really shouldn't have gone past 2 or 3 posts IMHO.

    Bear
    You must be kidding ne_nau.gif
    I stayed home from work just to read all these replies.........Errrrr comments.......... rolleyes1.gif

    Oh wait I don't have a job :lol4 :D

    and a Shay should not that be CAM 2000.................... no wait your a Canon Man. Well I guess now we can go on for another 5 or 6 pages of Nikon/Canon wars........... Whoppeee no work for me blbl.gifrolleyes1.giflol3.gif :lol4 thumb.gif
  • AndyAndy Bicameral New YorkRegistered Users Posts: 50,154 Major grins
    edited October 18, 2005
    winger wrote:

    40139750-M-1.jpg

    dirty. very, very dirty. also, very, very good, winger thumb.gifthumb.gif
  • devbobodevbobo LR whisperer Melbourne, AURegistered Users, Retired Mod Posts: 4,339 SmugMug Employee
    edited October 18, 2005
    Hey winger,

    I gotta say that I was disappointed when you didn't make the cut, cuz I really liked your shot. But after reading Andy's critique, I fully understand the reasoning...and I do agree to some extent.

    But i gotta say I totally love this shot. You should have entered this one, it's definately dirty and I think it tells a great story.

    40139750-M-1.jpg

    Cheers,

    David
    David Parry
    SmugMug API Developer
    My Photos
  • ginger_55ginger_55 Crazy Creek Babe Charleston, SCRegistered Users Posts: 8,416 Major grins
    edited October 18, 2005
    I love feet. Any time feet can tell the story they do it for me!

    ginger............
    After all is said and done, it is the sweet tea.
  • GREAPERGREAPER Major grins Toledo, OhioRegistered Users Posts: 3,113 Major grins
    edited October 18, 2005
    Congrats to all the participants in the challenge. I hope you used it as it was suppose to be used. I believe that it is intended to push you creatively. To cause you to think about photographs instead of just shooting a sunject you like.

    Andy and 4labs had a tough job to do, and they did it well. Running this thing is always tough work and bashing them for how they did it is out of line.

    The idea that there would not be 10 finalists is NOT new. It is not a change. It happened at least once before and there was hubub about it then.

    I know everyone hopes to be in the finals. They work hard on taking and choosing the shot they will enter, and for many, being chosen in the finals is a valadation of the effort they put in.

    I think there were a few BIG standouts in this challenge and they were in the finals. I didn't see a shot that wasn't chosen that I thought has a chance of winning, but thats just my humble opinion.

    Shakey's shot ROCKED, I voted for it, and would have if I had the chance to vote on every shot.

    I hope everyone can get past this and try to have FUN like we are suppose to.
  • imaximax Major grins Hollywood Florida USARegistered Users Posts: 692 Major grins
    edited October 18, 2005
    Personal Foul...............
    On The Defense.

    40532123-L.jpg





    Roughing The Passer And Unsportsmanlike Conduct!


    This thread is amazing. What a thankless job (if you could call it that Andy) you have. Work for hours on end for no pay, helping others improve their god given gifts and you do it of your own free will. Amazing! What I see as funny is the amount of people complaining and whining about the trivial little things that go on here. I wonder have any of these people actually thanked you for giving of your time, of your knowledge, of your years.


    Now don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to kiss anyones ass here, I'm just stating that people are so easy to criticize you for how you run your challenge, but it is rare that I have ever seen someone thank you for what you do with the challenge.. So let me take the time to do that now. Thanks for allowing me a place to broaden my horizons, improve on my ability and share what I see with the world in an enjoyable manner. As for the celebrity judges that appear on your show every other week, thank you too for all that you do.

    I recently took some photographs for a local paper that I really thought were quite good if I don't say so myself, :D the editor didn't appreciate them so there was no pay. I recently worked on something called the Human Adventure and the photographs came out in my opinion quite crappy, but everyone involved with the production loved them. So you can't please everyone.

    You know when I first opened up the link to vote last night and saw that not only did I not make the final 10 but there were only six finalists, I myself was a little puzzled. I mean I always should be in the top 10 eek7.gif After thinking about it and seeing the threads that were posted about it, I realize just how silly it really is. Lifes too too short to worry about the things that people spend their time complaining about.

    Insults, Complaining, Whining, And the rest will do nothing to resolve this. May I suggest that we all solve this little situation by going out and taking the best damn pictures that we can take. Give it our all. And if that don't work, do it again, and again, and again until you reach what you believe to be your best. And then when you are at that point, go out and do it again because you have only just scratched the surface.

    And and for those of you that think that I'm insinuating that you did not give it your all in this challenge, that is only something you can answer for yourself. Look yourself in the mirror and decide if what you are putting out there is really your best, or if you are just going through the motions.

    It's Not What People Can Do That Makes A Difference In Their Lives, It's What They Will Do!


    here's one for you Greaper



    40561059-M.jpg



    Joe
  • GREAPERGREAPER Major grins Toledo, OhioRegistered Users Posts: 3,113 Major grins
    edited October 18, 2005
    Sweeet. I love Racoons almost as much as I love owls.

    It's odd that this guy was out in what looks to be broad daylight. These fellows are usually nocturnal. the exceptions are usually an animal that has been kept as a pet... as i suspect of the fellow in my avatar, or they have a disease such as distemper or rabies that affects their behavior.
  • wingerwinger Major grins Lombard, ILRegistered Users Posts: 694 Major grins
    edited October 18, 2005
    devbobo wrote:
    Hey winger,

    I gotta say that I was disappointed when you didn't make the cut, cuz I really liked your shot. But after reading Andy's critique, I fully understand the reasoning...and I do agree to some extent.

    But i gotta say I totally love this shot. You should have entered this one, it's definately dirty and I think it tells a great story.

    40139750-M-1.jpg

    Cheers,

    David
    I think with this shot I feel like i missed "the shot" it would I think I could of done it better if I got on one knee and shot at the same level at the feet, and got some play action on the field as the background, OR somehow got a bit higher and shoot more downward to clean up the background. I think that is why I didnt enter it, I feel like in this shot I missed "the shot" even thought it told the story of the game (well game conditions I guess, but not game outcome). And the feet on the right are a smidgen out of focus cause I had a shallow DOF from shooting mostly play action.

    It would of been better if I got the kicker, I guess he was hopping around the sidelines as to not get his shoe dirty/ muddy. But for the most part I wouldnt get much for photos there, I usually shoot sidelines stuff on my way to either end because play has moved.

    If i had more time I proably would of asked people what they thought, but like i do for most challenges I forgot, but this time when I looked I was like "dirty" man was that football game dirty on saturday.

    But I didnt think of the audience and its also hard cause you get attached to your photos.

    But at least I know they dont suck now clap.gif:D
  • lynnesitelynnesite Horses of Courses near Corona, CARegistered Users Posts: 747 Major grins
    edited October 18, 2005
    I'm embarassed. A gal I've been mentoring for the past few years wandered over here and entered this challenge. It wasn't an entry that should have made the cut, she'll be the first to admit that, she does shoot great stuff but is new to challenge photography. I really regret she had to "see us" like this.

    Andy, thanks for your wonderful efforts.clap.gif I wish some of the folks here would go play in the "big pool" like dpchallenge and Fred Miranda so they can appreciate the intimacy and community here. Over at DPC anyone can comment on your entry. Comments stick for life, too. Everyone is encouraged to make comments. There are two open challenges (you can only enter one) and one member challenge (membership is $25 a year) every week or so. Just go try something different (and then come back if you can appreciate what Andy/dgrin is providing here.)

    The finalist threads are around forever too. Why would we want anything but excellence for posterity?
  • mereimagemereimage Major grins midwestRegistered Users Posts: 448 Major grins
    edited October 18, 2005
    I have never entered a challenge
    I never felt creative enough and know my sensitive ego yelrotflmao.gifyelrotflmao.gifyelrotflmao.gifwould be bruised, plus it takes a lot of time which I usually don't have esp during the daylight hours. Therefore I never felt it would be worth entering.. ..On the other hand if all entries were critiqued like Andy just did and these were made available then I feel it would be a great learning experience. Don't worry Andy I understand the time limitations you work under and don't expect this, never the less it was instructive to see your comments and I think everyone should be appreciative of the thought you put into your work. It is obvious that dgrinners have a large emotional attachment to their photographic efforts which is one of the reasons dgrin is such a fun place to be. I for one am appreciative of the commitment you and many others make to this site, in fact I am amazed at your commitment in time,talent, intellect, and just plain niceness(sorry I ran out of fancy adjectives). Does anyone realize what you'd have to pay (in dollars and time)in the real world for the kind of photographic knowledge we get for free from Andy, Rutt, Pathfinder and others(very few could afford it). OK I'm done, now I'll go back to stealing folks posts to practice my PS on........Mereimage
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