I think Canon HAS to offer a near-top-shelf camera for under $3000. Camera bodies are basically disposable now, compared to cameras like my Grandfather's 1951 Leica IIIf which I inherited. I had it restored and it works as new and takes great pictures. Now that camera, which cost about as much as a 5DII in its day, was an investment. The 1DX will not last 10 years either by failure or obsolescence. $6800 for that makes no sense for anybody but globetrotting full time pros shooting in harsh environments, and the senselessly rich. Heck, just last winter I was at a snowboarding event put on by Seth Wescott and the guy from the state's largest newspaper was shooting a 40D.
There is a huge market of pros and enthusiasts who need high IQ, high ISO, excellent AF, and fast FPS but who are simply not going to buy a new 1DX or 1DIV no matter what. If Canon doesn't want to lose these people to the used market, the I'll-just-keep-what-I-have market, or worse, Nikon, they need to make the 5DIII compelling all around. I'm praying it is a 7D with a 1DX sensor. 9+6 point AF and 5fps will be a let-down.
-Jack
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
There is a huge market of pros and enthusiasts who need high IQ, high ISO, excellent AF, and fast FPS but who are simply not going to buy a new 1DX or 1DIV no matter what. If Canon doesn't want to lose these people to the used market, the I'll-just-keep-what-I-have market, or worse, Nikon, they need to make the 5DIII compelling all around. I'm praying it is a 7D with a 1DX sensor. 9+6 point AF and 5fps will be a let-down.
Sports shooters want the high FPS
Portrait/wedding shooters want the highest, cleanest IQ
BOTH want decent AF, extended high ISO and customisation features
Seems to me there's a great case for a PAIR of cameras to be released, intended as companions. That's kind of what's happened by default with the existing 5dII/7d, but I think it would be kind of cool if they were designed (and no doubt marketed) as a companion pair with as close to identical layout as possible (so it would be easy to shoot them side by side) and other complementary features. Double slinging that pair could be incredible...
Sports shooters want the high FPS
Portrait/wedding shooters want the highest, cleanest IQ
BOTH want decent AF, extended high ISO and customisation features
I could live with 5fps and 9+6 AF points assuming the 9 are all cross type, and as good as the 7D's. But it would just be kind of insulting.
Seems to me there's a great case for a PAIR of cameras to be released, intended as companions. That's kind of what's happened by default with the existing 5dII/7d, but I think it would be kind of cool if they were designed (and no doubt marketed) as a companion pair with as close to identical layout as possible (so it would be easy to shoot them side by side) and other complementary features. Double slinging that pair could be incredible...
I have that pair of cameras. It's annoying anywhere but at a paid event, and then it's annoying that one is APS-C. My 7D gets neglected most of the time. I'd like to sell them both and get one camera.
-Jack
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
61pt AF!?! 22mp sounds great, but it doesn't sound like that D800-like 1Ds replacement we've been talking about. I'm fine with 22mp, but I sure hope it's not $3000. The 7.5fps is still just something from a 3rd party website - I don't think it will happen.
I won't be buying a 5D3 (might look into a used mk2), but I'd like to see some of these improvements:
Take pushing +exposure in post better
More responsive live view
at least 5fps.
I think the sensor and AF improvements are gonna be pretty good - hopefully the 61pt AF is right. So many people complain about the AF of the mk2, I think they'll have to address it if they want to sell many of these. 22mp sounds just right, as long as they can get 1 or 2 stops higher clean ISO than the mk2. Many users complain about the banding too - you have to push +exposure in post like 2 stops (on a ISO 3200 photo), but it's there. I think they'll improve that too. 22mp implies that they'll concentrate more on the pixel quality instead of quantity
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Matthew SavilleRegistered Users, Retired ModPosts: 3,352Major grins
edited January 28, 2012
Oh dear lord if they put the 61 point AF in that thing, I'll almost switch...
Oh dear lord if they put the 61 point AF in that thing, I'll almost switch...
22mp FF + 61 points + spot AF + button customisation would ROCK. I know many want the fast fps, but that isn't something I personally need so not a dealbreaker at all. Flash commander would be nice, but also not a dealbreaker.
Of course, then I'd have to figure out how to pay for it :giggle. But I can tell you if this camera is for real, my 7d and EFS lenses are likely to go on the market sooner rather than later....
22mp FF + 61 points + spot AF + button customisation would ROCK. I know many want the fast fps, but that isn't something I personally need so not a dealbreaker at all. Flash commander would be nice, but also not a dealbreaker.
Of course, then I'd have to figure out how to pay for it :giggle. But I can tell you if this camera is for real, my 7d and EFS lenses are likely to go on the market sooner rather than later....
Yeah... wow, if those specs are true... I'm gonna have to figure something out, because that's what I'm looking for. Maybe toss in dual-CF slots too, just for good measure!
Yeah... wow, if those specs are true... I'm gonna have to figure something out, because that's what I'm looking for. Maybe toss in dual-CF slots too, just for good measure!
CF+SD would be fantabulous - SD cards are SO much easier to get hold of in an emergency than CF (as in, "Oh cr** I just dropped my cards in a puddle - thank goodness there's a supermarket around the corner that sells SD cards!!"). THey're so much cheaper too. And I have lots of them for sound recording, my XSi and S95...
Oh dear lord if they put the 61 point AF in that thing, I'll almost switch...
Yeah, that spec would exceed all expectations. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised by a 9+6 point AF. I expect the 7D AF. I hope for the 45pt AF. I dream of the 61pt AF. :eat
Man I could sell my 7D and 5DII, buy the 5DIII (5DX? 3D?) and be happy for many years. I could stop reading gear forums!!!
-Jack
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
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Matthew SavilleRegistered Users, Retired ModPosts: 3,352Major grins
Yeah, that spec would exceed all expectations. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised by a 9+6 point AF. I expect the 7D AF. I hope for the 45pt AF. I dream of the 61pt AF. :eat
Man I could sell my 7D and 5DII, buy the 5DIII (5DX? 3D?) and be happy for many years. I could stop reading gear forums!!!
Took the words right out of my mouth. (Finally!!!!)
Easy, people who can't afford/justify a $2700 camera and/or are invested in EF-S lenses. Also people who demand the "reach" of 18mp on APS-C.
It seems to me that maybe a significant number of *current* 7D owners did not buy it for those reasons mainly. And there seem to be many sporters and birders and macroists who have preferred the 5Ds over the 7D, despite the reach, focusing and speed differences.
If the specs wished for in the 5D? here, and the specs wished for in the7D? elsewhere, are all fulfilled, these two cameras are going to become even less distinct from each other, in practice especially, not only on paper. And what is the space the "entry levels" are going to advance into, if not what is described by these very same sets of wishes? This is the mid-range squeeze I have described.
It seems to me that maybe a significant number of *current* 7D owners did not buy it for those reasons mainly.
The ~$900 difference between the 7D and 5DII is real money to a lot of people.
And there seem to be many sporters and birders and macroists who have preferred the 5Ds over the 7D, despite the reach, focusing and speed differences.
I find that hard to believe. I think probably a lot of people who "prefer" the 5DII for sports are 5DII owners with sour grapes.
If the specs wished for in the 5D? here, and the specs wished for in the7D? elsewhere, are all fulfilled, these two cameras are going to become even less distinct from each other, in practice especially, not only on paper.
If the 5DIII indeed has the 61 point (or even 45 point) AF, that plus the FF sensor will keep it separate from the 7D in terms of features and price point. I think there is still a significant manufacturing cost premium for FF, although smaller than in the past.
I haven't been keeping tabs on 7DII desires even though I have one... I'm not sure what more people would want other than a 16mp high sensitivity sensor and maybe real AF during video. Otherwise it is the perfect APS-C camera.
And what is the space the "entry levels" are going to advance into, if not what is described by these very same sets of wishes? This is the mid-range squeeze I have described.
The ##D line.
-Jack
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
The ~$900 difference between the 7D and 5DII is real money to a lot of people.
I find that hard to believe. I think probably a lot of people who "prefer" the 5DII for sports are 5DII owners with sour grapes.
If the 5DIII indeed has the 61 point (or even 45 point) AF, that plus the FF sensor will keep it separate from the 7D in terms of features and price point. I think there is still a significant manufacturing cost premium for FF, although smaller than in the past.
I haven't been keeping tabs on 7DII desires even though I have one... I'm not sure what more people would want other than a 16mp high sensitivity sensor and maybe real AF during video. Otherwise it is the perfect APS-C camera.
The ##D line.
Most buyers of all sub-1D models are amateurs, and a significant number of midrange model buyers are amateurs. The market for amateur buyers sells on fashion and on-paper specs. The thinking dslr photographer and the professional are more likely to ignore both fashion and on-paper specs, and choose on practical meet with needs, with reference to an end product usually in print (and increasingly in commercial video). The 1D pro lineup has been more conservative in its specs than the sub-1D group, while giving more attention to robust performance and specialisation.
A lot of the discussion about sub-pro models seems to me to grow out of amateur concerns rather than reference to income earning end product. And that is not surprising since amateurs are the majority buyers of these cameras. But what really points up the absurdity involved is that most of the images from the hot new bristling with amazing specs sub-pro models are destined for RGB 72ppi digital display, for a week, for fun.
Nothing *wrong* with any of that, of course, and absolutely nothing wrong with being an amateur and having whatever camera you desire, but the *ardency* over specs is an amateur class characteristic.D
Well you lost me there. If you were calling me amateur, I shoot for hire part time. If that makes me amateur I'm fine with that. I've learned to stop pixel peeping and to worry more about light, composition, and content. I've also tolerated my 5DII's limitations long enough. I'm ready for more and I will put it to good use.
-Jack
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
Most buyers of all sub-1D models are amateurs, and a significant number of midrange model buyers are amateurs. The market for amateur buyers sells on fashion and on-paper specs. The thinking dslr photographer and the professional are more likely to ignore both fashion and on-paper specs, and choose on practical meet with needs, with reference to an end product usually in print (and increasingly in commercial video).
Neil
I suspect most cameras of any level are sold to amateurs, as it is really hard to make a living as a pro shooter. That said, there are some pretty good amateurs who know the difference between paper specs and performance (and are probably better than a lot of pro shooters). At the end of the day, great photographs can be made on almost any camera. Most pro shooters I know update their equipment when it can positively affect their work. I see lots of people in the photographer wells at major sports events with 7Ds and 1DIIIs--and I'm sure the Nikon equivalent. OTOH, when I see a photographer's website that features their equipment (as if their customers know or care about these things) I am immediately suspicious. There are photographers and there are pixel peepers: the former use their equipment to look at the world, the latter use the world to look at their equipment.
There are photographers and there are pixel peepers: the former use equipment to look at the world, the latter use the world to look at their equipment.
Man wouldn't 61 points be the cat's meow. I'm glad to see the rumors trending away from the dreaded 9+6 point AF. That would have caused me to do some serious thinking about my system.
-Jack
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
Putting together what's being leaked/discovered/trailed/rumored, it seems that we're (hopefully!) looking at:
- 22mp. So similar pixel density to the existing one thank goodness, which hopefully means just-as-good-or-even-better ISO
- Improved AF. I'm happy with the 7d's 19 points, but more is fine with me too (although, Nikon shooters, doesn't it take more time to scroll through that many points and make a decision quickly? )
- Digic 4. Fine by me.
- maybe 2 card slots.
- similar price-point to existing 5dII (which is HUGE for me and, I'm sure, quite a lot of others)
Neil, going back to your "amateur" point. Do you consider all the wedding shooters who prefer the 5d series "amateurs"? I would guess that quite a few pros prefer the smaller form-factor, especially if they're slinging two cameras. And not everybody likes using a grip - it's convenient for some things, but certainly adds weight and bulk which for some can lead to hand-fatigue. I would imagine that Canon's largest market for a relatively affordable FF camera is going to be the wedding shooters. Just thinking out loud.
This is the first time since the 7d was announced that I've actually been intersted in what's coming. Definitely keeping my eye on this one! I'm not doing my theatre shoots so regularly any more, but I would still give an arm and leg for portrait-useable 1600/3200 and am definitely keen to go FF as soon as I can. These rumors are whetting my appetite further!
Agreed, 7D AF would please me. But 45 or 61 would send me over the moon. It's not necessarily the number of points, it's the implication of just a superior system overall, especially for tracking. The 7D is very good at tracking (recent pic), but hey if they want to give me something even better I'll take it!!
I used to wonder the same thing about Nikon's 51 points, until I got a 1DIIN. Now that I have a 7D I don't miss having 45 points, but I can tell you it was no big deal to manage them.
-Jack
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
Comments
There is a huge market of pros and enthusiasts who need high IQ, high ISO, excellent AF, and fast FPS but who are simply not going to buy a new 1DX or 1DIV no matter what. If Canon doesn't want to lose these people to the used market, the I'll-just-keep-what-I-have market, or worse, Nikon, they need to make the 5DIII compelling all around. I'm praying it is a 7D with a 1DX sensor. 9+6 point AF and 5fps will be a let-down.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
Sports shooters want the high FPS
Portrait/wedding shooters want the highest, cleanest IQ
BOTH want decent AF, extended high ISO and customisation features
Seems to me there's a great case for a PAIR of cameras to be released, intended as companions. That's kind of what's happened by default with the existing 5dII/7d, but I think it would be kind of cool if they were designed (and no doubt marketed) as a companion pair with as close to identical layout as possible (so it would be easy to shoot them side by side) and other complementary features. Double slinging that pair could be incredible...
I could live with 5fps and 9+6 AF points assuming the 9 are all cross type, and as good as the 7D's. But it would just be kind of insulting.
I have that pair of cameras. It's annoying anywhere but at a paid event, and then it's annoying that one is APS-C. My 7D gets neglected most of the time. I'd like to sell them both and get one camera.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
=Matt=
My SmugMug Portfolio • My Astro-Landscape Photo Blog • Dgrin Weddings Forum
If that's true and the AF is improved, I'll be happy!
http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/01/5d-mark-iii-february-7-2012-cr2/
61pt AF!?! 22mp sounds great, but it doesn't sound like that D800-like 1Ds replacement we've been talking about. I'm fine with 22mp, but I sure hope it's not $3000. The 7.5fps is still just something from a 3rd party website - I don't think it will happen.
Take pushing +exposure in post better
More responsive live view
at least 5fps.
I think the sensor and AF improvements are gonna be pretty good - hopefully the 61pt AF is right. So many people complain about the AF of the mk2, I think they'll have to address it if they want to sell many of these. 22mp sounds just right, as long as they can get 1 or 2 stops higher clean ISO than the mk2. Many users complain about the banding too - you have to push +exposure in post like 2 stops (on a ISO 3200 photo), but it's there. I think they'll improve that too. 22mp implies that they'll concentrate more on the pixel quality instead of quantity
My SmugMug Portfolio • My Astro-Landscape Photo Blog • Dgrin Weddings Forum
22mp FF + 61 points + spot AF + button customisation would ROCK. I know many want the fast fps, but that isn't something I personally need so not a dealbreaker at all. Flash commander would be nice, but also not a dealbreaker.
Of course, then I'd have to figure out how to pay for it :giggle. But I can tell you if this camera is for real, my 7d and EFS lenses are likely to go on the market sooner rather than later....
Yeah... wow, if those specs are true... I'm gonna have to figure something out, because that's what I'm looking for. Maybe toss in dual-CF slots too, just for good measure!
I doubt dual CF, but most likely CF+SD.
=Matt=
My SmugMug Portfolio • My Astro-Landscape Photo Blog • Dgrin Weddings Forum
You know, I could live that that too!
Neil
http://www.behance.net/brosepix
Easy, people who can't afford/justify a $2700 camera and/or are invested in EF-S lenses. Also people who demand the "reach" of 18mp on APS-C.
Yeah, that spec would exceed all expectations. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised by a 9+6 point AF. I expect the 7D AF. I hope for the 45pt AF. I dream of the 61pt AF. :eat
Man I could sell my 7D and 5DII, buy the 5DIII (5DX? 3D?) and be happy for many years. I could stop reading gear forums!!!
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
Took the words right out of my mouth. (Finally!!!!)
=Matt=
My SmugMug Portfolio • My Astro-Landscape Photo Blog • Dgrin Weddings Forum
It seems to me that maybe a significant number of *current* 7D owners did not buy it for those reasons mainly.
If the specs wished for in the 5D? here, and the specs wished for in the7D? elsewhere, are all fulfilled, these two cameras are going to become even less distinct from each other, in practice especially, not only on paper. And what is the space the "entry levels" are going to advance into, if not what is described by these very same sets of wishes? This is the mid-range squeeze I have described.
Neil
http://www.behance.net/brosepix
The ~$900 difference between the 7D and 5DII is real money to a lot of people.
I find that hard to believe. I think probably a lot of people who "prefer" the 5DII for sports are 5DII owners with sour grapes.
If the 5DIII indeed has the 61 point (or even 45 point) AF, that plus the FF sensor will keep it separate from the 7D in terms of features and price point. I think there is still a significant manufacturing cost premium for FF, although smaller than in the past.
I haven't been keeping tabs on 7DII desires even though I have one... I'm not sure what more people would want other than a 16mp high sensitivity sensor and maybe real AF during video. Otherwise it is the perfect APS-C camera.
The ##D line.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
Most buyers of all sub-1D models are amateurs, and a significant number of midrange model buyers are amateurs. The market for amateur buyers sells on fashion and on-paper specs. The thinking dslr photographer and the professional are more likely to ignore both fashion and on-paper specs, and choose on practical meet with needs, with reference to an end product usually in print (and increasingly in commercial video). The 1D pro lineup has been more conservative in its specs than the sub-1D group, while giving more attention to robust performance and specialisation.
A lot of the discussion about sub-pro models seems to me to grow out of amateur concerns rather than reference to income earning end product. And that is not surprising since amateurs are the majority buyers of these cameras. But what really points up the absurdity involved is that most of the images from the hot new bristling with amazing specs sub-pro models are destined for RGB 72ppi digital display, for a week, for fun.
Nothing *wrong* with any of that, of course, and absolutely nothing wrong with being an amateur and having whatever camera you desire, but the *ardency* over specs is an amateur class characteristic.
Neil
http://www.behance.net/brosepix
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
I suspect most cameras of any level are sold to amateurs, as it is really hard to make a living as a pro shooter. That said, there are some pretty good amateurs who know the difference between paper specs and performance (and are probably better than a lot of pro shooters). At the end of the day, great photographs can be made on almost any camera. Most pro shooters I know update their equipment when it can positively affect their work. I see lots of people in the photographer wells at major sports events with 7Ds and 1DIIIs--and I'm sure the Nikon equivalent. OTOH, when I see a photographer's website that features their equipment (as if their customers know or care about these things) I am immediately suspicious. There are photographers and there are pixel peepers: the former use their equipment to look at the world, the latter use the world to look at their equipment.
Best.Quote.Ever.
Here's another rumor calling for 61pt AF, but this time with 6.9fps.
http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/02/5d-x-or-mark-iii-specs-release-date-cr1/
Man wouldn't 61 points be the cat's meow. I'm glad to see the rumors trending away from the dreaded 9+6 point AF. That would have caused me to do some serious thinking about my system.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
+1
Putting together what's being leaked/discovered/trailed/rumored, it seems that we're (hopefully!) looking at:
- 22mp. So similar pixel density to the existing one thank goodness, which hopefully means just-as-good-or-even-better ISO
- Improved AF. I'm happy with the 7d's 19 points, but more is fine with me too (although, Nikon shooters, doesn't it take more time to scroll through that many points and make a decision quickly?
- Digic 4. Fine by me.
- maybe 2 card slots.
- similar price-point to existing 5dII (which is HUGE for me and, I'm sure, quite a lot of others)
Neil, going back to your "amateur" point. Do you consider all the wedding shooters who prefer the 5d series "amateurs"? I would guess that quite a few pros prefer the smaller form-factor, especially if they're slinging two cameras. And not everybody likes using a grip - it's convenient for some things, but certainly adds weight and bulk which for some can lead to hand-fatigue. I would imagine that Canon's largest market for a relatively affordable FF camera is going to be the wedding shooters. Just thinking out loud.
This is the first time since the 7d was announced that I've actually been intersted in what's coming. Definitely keeping my eye on this one! I'm not doing my theatre shoots so regularly any more, but I would still give an arm and leg for portrait-useable 1600/3200 and am definitely keen to go FF as soon as I can. These rumors are whetting my appetite further!
Agreed, 7D AF would please me. But 45 or 61 would send me over the moon. It's not necessarily the number of points, it's the implication of just a superior system overall, especially for tracking. The 7D is very good at tracking (recent pic), but hey if they want to give me something even better I'll take it!!
I used to wonder the same thing about Nikon's 51 points, until I got a 1DIIN. Now that I have a 7D I don't miss having 45 points, but I can tell you it was no big deal to manage them.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
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