Eliminating 4x6" prints
jmphotocraft
Registered Users Posts: 2,987 Major grins
So one emphatic suggestion from my "Aggressive Cropping?" thread was to not offer 4x6" prints for sale at all, rather than cropping to encourage sales of larger prints.
I think I'd like to do this. Seems an ironic shame to shoot with pro equipment that can produce huge posters only to sell mostly 4x6" prints.
However, my customers seem to loooove their 4x6s, so I'm nervous. Here is a typical order, all 4x6, except the composite, which is 8x10 minimum:
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Gross: $46.60. Most people seem to like buying small prints of every picture I take of their child, rather than choosing a few favorites and printing those larger. My hope is that by eliminating 4x6s, parents will do that. My fear is that people won't like this and that it will generate ill will. I'd hope that wouldn't happen, because I live in this town and my kids are in the league. I have to walk a fine line between "doing something nice for" and "making money off of" my community. This is not my full time job, it's not like I depend on the money. However it is a lot of work and I'd like to be rewarded for it. My other fear is that rather than buying seven 4x6s for $28, people will just buy like three 5x7s for $18. But mostly I want kids and parents to have bigger prints that will be special and make the kids feel like stars.
Thoughts?
I think I'd like to do this. Seems an ironic shame to shoot with pro equipment that can produce huge posters only to sell mostly 4x6" prints.
However, my customers seem to loooove their 4x6s, so I'm nervous. Here is a typical order, all 4x6, except the composite, which is 8x10 minimum:
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
Gross: $46.60. Most people seem to like buying small prints of every picture I take of their child, rather than choosing a few favorites and printing those larger. My hope is that by eliminating 4x6s, parents will do that. My fear is that people won't like this and that it will generate ill will. I'd hope that wouldn't happen, because I live in this town and my kids are in the league. I have to walk a fine line between "doing something nice for" and "making money off of" my community. This is not my full time job, it's not like I depend on the money. However it is a lot of work and I'd like to be rewarded for it. My other fear is that rather than buying seven 4x6s for $28, people will just buy like three 5x7s for $18. But mostly I want kids and parents to have bigger prints that will be special and make the kids feel like stars.
Thoughts?
-Jack
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
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If they are choosing 4x6 for reasons other than "its the cheapest print option" then you probably should keep offering that print size but just make it more pricey so that you gross more revenue.
Sometimes you don't want images for hanging on wall. We have a TON of images of our two year old daughter already. The bulk have never been printed, except in Shutterfly books. A select few, mostly from professional photographers, get printed to 5x7, some 8x10, one or two 11x14, and about two as 20x24. That's it. If we had many more large prints of her, what would we do with them over the years? Not enough wall space, and too hard to store and archive.
A former sports shooter
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You posted: "My other fear is that rather than buying seven 4x6s for $28, people will just buy like three 5x7s for $18. But mostly I want kids and parents to have bigger prints that will be special and make the kids feel like stars."
If this is really true why not inform the parents of this desire and maybe offer one 8X10 or larger at 1. the same price as a 4X6, or 2. a greatly reduced price for each 4, or 6, or 8 4X6 purchased, or some derivative of this?
Sam
A former sports shooter
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Thanks for the feedback Bill.
I'm still tempted to do away with 4x6 next year though. Is 5x7 that much harder to scrapbook or throw in an album??
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
Size Old Price New Price!
8x10 $15.95 $8.95
12x18 $25.95 $17.95
16x20 $34.95 $24.95
20x30 $54.95 $39.95
Sure I think my photos are worth the old price or more. But the fact is nobody was buying them. I just want people to see their players (and my photos!) in all their glory. Hope this works.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
www.jonbakerphotography.com
For ski racing, I make 60% of my sales from selling packages of digital files. Do you offer anything like that to teams and/or individuals?
Comments and constructive criticism always welcome.
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Thanks Mike. My gallery is a Pro SmugMug gallery, and I don't see a way to package digital files.
By the way, after sending that email with the new prices, I got an order for four 8x10s and three 5x7. Hmm!
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
Comments and constructive criticism always welcome.
www.mikejulianaphotography.com
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I used to do packages with prints and digital files way back when I was doing karts and motocross. 4x6 plus hi res file, and 8x12 plus hi res file. I got takers. And this wasn't a problem doing so through Exposure Manager, way back in 2006-2007.
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
Wow. Tough crowd.
That said, I'd be offended too if I was asked to pay ( anything) for sub standard work.
I didn't realise this is just a 6 week season. Our lasts 6 months with about a month off in the middle for Christmas.
Maybe there's a reason? Like they want a lot of pictures of their kid? As a parent, I would prefer to get more variety in a smaller image than pay more for less variety, for a larger image, that I'm not likely to display anywhere. How many 8x10s of my kid do I need playing baseball? A 4x6 can go in a little album or can be scrapbooked.
Look, you're not doing anything artistic here. People are paying for someone with good equipment and the right timing to push a button at the right time. The point of buying these is to get memories of Johnny batting, not to get a 3 foot print to put on the wall, so the more they can buy in their budget at the size they want, the happier they will be. Give the customer what they want instead of being a dictator.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
I do. I'm a consumer (as well as a photographer), and I'm telling you what the public would want and is thinking. What did you disagree with?
He already knows what will sells. He said he sells looooots of 4x6 images. He wants to sell more 5x7 for his own emotional reasons:
"Most people seem to like buying small prints of every picture I take of their child, rather than choosing a few favorites and printing those larger."
"I want kids and parents to have bigger prints that will be special and make the kids feel like stars."
The business decision is to offer what the customer wants (within reason - I never said to give them away free).
The fact that you think sports photography is simply having good equipment and knowing when to press the button shows you know nothing about it at all. And no, I'm not creating artwork, I'm doing something far more important and relevant - documenting sons and daughters enjoying their youth and growing up. People buy these pictures every year and cherish them. How often do people buy artwork for their homes?
"A 4x6 can go in a little album or can be scrapbooked." So can a 5x7.
You do not speak for the public. Your opinion of 1 has been noted.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
Memory mates work well. Trading Cards are a big hit (something smugmug REALLY needs to offer). Posters, when done well, seem to be big sellers for a lot of people. Things can be a bit different for some of the high-money sports. But, in general, most people just are not hanging 8x10 or larger prints of their kids in little league. If you want larger you have to be unique. Smaller fits on desktop/end table and into scrap books (which is a big destination of those small prints). Especially any parent that already has an older child - they recognize the transient nature of display for even the best little league photo.
Now, if you're photographing the Little League World Series, that might be different.
The market might be very different where Glort lives. But I don't know anyone in the US that is making a lot of money shooting Little League type sports and profit based solely on print sales of non 4x6 images. Again, it might be different for some other sports but when I talked to parents a few years back the feedback I got was "I have no idea where I would put an 11x14 or 16x20 photo". But a Poster can easily go up in Little Johny's room. What was a big hit were fat-head style wall clings. Unfortunately, profit margins were a bit tight. It might be that printing costs have come down - don't know.
The only thing he is on to is condescendingly stating the obvious. People like to buy 4x6s. Thanks for the news flash. Everyone knows that, it was not the question.
I wasn't expecting people to buy lots of 16x20 archive prints. I just want to get people into 5x7s and larger. Personally I can't fathom not having a few big frames in my house for big sports pictures of each kid that I change out periodically, but that's me. Especially in a playroom.
As for posters, I agree, and that is my goal of pricing a 16x20 at $24.95 - so the parents can just tack it up on their kid's bedroom wall without a frame or anything and not worry about it. Do you know of a service that prints one-off paper posters for real cheap? I just looked and zazzle.com offers paper posters, but a 16x20 costs $12.75. I suppose I could sell that for $20 but why bother?
I am selling memory mates through SmugMug and trading cards through another service - SmugMug seriously needs to offer trading cards, and paper posters for that matter.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
As per Smugmug not offering this or that or whatnot, I still can't believe they don't at least offer self-fulfill items like so many others of their competition.
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
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That is great. All I can say is, my experience shooting sports for a side business indicated that for these types of sports your viewpoint was the exception, not the rule. The important thing here is - are you constructing an image that looks like a poster or just expecting them to print off a normal print that size? For example, here's a recent thread showing a very good poster. Are you creating images like this?
http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=232394&highlight=poster
Please let me know where I have been condescending to another forum member in this thread, other than where I returned Justin's attitude in kind. I don't take exception to him pointing out the fact that people like 4x6s, other than it's obvious, I take exception to him putting down sports photography as easy and frivolous, and likening professional photographers to dictators.
Oh I have learned that in spades. I just don't understand it. I want my kids to feel like stars, so I have posters of them doing their best at the things they love. I don't know why any parent wouldn't do the same, given the opportunity. Guess I must be father of the year.
I do offer custom posters like that, as well as magazine covers, but at a significant premium. I'm not set up to do them in batches, they're one-offs by hand. What does a poster like that typically sell for?
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
You see, THAT to me is condescending.
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
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I think your view of the importance of the action sports photo of the typical kid in youth baseball is not the view of the general public. Yes, I know shooting sports is more difficult than the other poster indicated. But, to the average consumer, the importance of that photo just isn't there. As the guy you're railing against pointed out - he is a parent. His views are completely relevant. The fact that many parents think like they do is an important thing to know.
I don't think I was condescending at all. You just didn't like the message.
I'd also disagree with your statement above. As a photographer, you stand somewhere others can't, set the equipment for the current situation, and push the button when the time is right and the person is in frame. That gives you your product. You're not posing anyone, you're not setting up lights, you're not directing an assistant, you have no control over the environment or subject, etc. You're essentially documenting something that is going on, and you may assign more emotion to that situation then the "normal" parent which is why you're upset that anyone would want a 4x6 when they could have a slightly bigger printed image.
Towards who? If anything it was sarcastic towards myself, as I am probably not father of the year!
John - sigh... we are getting way off topic. Mostly I just want people to buy more 5x7s. I don't see how a 5x7 is more difficult to scrapbook, so I'd like to start my print sizes there - if those with more experience think this would be advisable.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
jmphotocraft (Jack),
Honestly, I have to agree with the others here. As a parent I would want the 4x6 or a digital file. As a photographer I try to provide what the client wants at a price that I can profit from. In my mind I am here to serve the client as long as I can do it in a manner that is profitable for me. The client is always right...as long as I can make a profit.
Also, you wanted someone to point out where you have been condescending in this thread. Most of your replies have been. I'm not trying to be a jerk but you seem very defensive to any view that isn't the same as yours.
With all of that said...it is your business and you need to do what you feel if right for you. None of our opinions really matter in the end.
Best of luck to you.
<Insert some profound quote here to try and seem like a deep thinker>
Michael Wachel Photography
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GaryB
“The single most important component of a camera is the twelve inches behind it!” - Ansel Adams
Example please. Posts 1, 5, 6, 9, 15... I'm not seeing it.
After that I responded in kind to someone saying sports photography is easy and unimportant. I'm not allowed to be offended by that?
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.