FWIW. As a reader of DGRIN using the New Posts link and not by going to the individual galleries (sub-forums??), I often did not realize that challenge was even in the works until the voting thread was posted.
I would click on the vote thread and vote when I saw it, but sometimes I would click on it and voting was already closed.
THat is when it helps to subscribe to challenge threads so you don't miss the action. Check New Posts and subscriptions. You don't need to have subscriptions emailed to you, if you want to avoid that.
Don
Don Ricklin - Gear: Canon EOS 5D Mark III, was Pentax K7
'I was older then, I'm younger than that now' ....
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FWIW. As a reader of DGRIN using the New Posts link and not by going to the individual galleries (sub-forums??), I often did not realize that challenge was even in the works until the voting thread was posted.
I would click on the vote thread and vote when I saw it, but sometimes I would click on it and voting was already closed.
Challenges are announced on the side bar. The start of each, the voting thread, and some information on prior challenges are all there (well, no new challenge info).
If you had a choice, how would you like to see new stuff? What would be your ideal way to stay informed?
Moderator Journeys/Sports/Big Picture :: Need some help with dgrin?
I think using the SmugMug facebook page to announce challenges is a great idea! I bet more people would participate if more Smuggers really knew about Dgrin and the Challenges.
Pho-tog-ra-pher (n) 1. One who practices photography 2. one obsessed with capturing life with their camera. 3. One who eats, sleeps and breathes photographs. 4. One who sees the world in 4x6. www.lisaspeakmanphotography.com
Check out the wedding forum - somebody has just posted saying they "didn't realise dgrin was more than support forums for Smug". In other words... somehow, people are missing what's here. Don't know how to fix that, but it's sure food for thought!
Waiting with bated breath. I participated in a few, and even won a couple. I would love to see some challenges back.
I think the smugmug facebook page(large userbase) and be mobilized. If Smugmug facebook page started advertising challenges, you would see more people registering and participating.
This is something for us to consider. Thanks for the idea.
Check out the wedding forum - somebody has just posted saying they "didn't realise dgrin was more than support forums for Smug". In other words... somehow, people are missing what's here. Don't know how to fix that, but it's sure food for thought!
Suggestions are always welcome. Word of mouth is one thing. But we definitely will be thinking on this.
- mix of "artistic" challenges, and those which might pull in photographers from different specific genres, eg landscape, portraits, sports, PJ, couples/weddings etc.
- Prizes. Sad to say, it does make a difference.
- Judges of some kind. The old system of judges followed by shortlist which went to popular vote OR even the reverse (popular vote to create the shortlist then judges pick the winners) do add credibility that might draw newcomers in, especially when combined with prizes.
- maybe make it once a month (or every two months). Eases pressure on the administrators/prizes
- twitter and fb announcements.
- announcements in relevant dgrin subforms (eg for a portrait challenge, make sure documentary and people forums have a sticky about it. Etc).
As I say, random thoughts. Use (or not) as you will.
I have to say that prizes have nothing to do with it for me. I don't care if there are prizes and I don't really want prizes. I suspect that I am an outlier in this respect.
I struggle with the feedback issue. I would like to say things about the alphabet challenge, but it is too hard. (and it goes too fast) As for people asking feedback for other challenges, I felt that either I was unqualified to give feedback or that my tastes were not in the mainstream so what I would say wouldn't be relevant and might be harmful since I have definite idiosyncratic ideas and what I would like or dislike wouldn't be good guidance. For instance I don't like color photos that are rendered in black and white or sepia except in extremely limited circumstances. Most of the time I think it is a cop-out. The same with the HDR or extra saturation. Hurts my eyes.
Some of the challenges that were for specific types of photos - lets take Windows for an example - I feel give an unfair advantage to people who live in places where they can photograph a beautiful mountain or lake through their window. The photos that were the prettiest won. The same for Spring Flowers because some places don't have any such thing as Spring. And Fall colors where the photo has to be fresh is unfair when there is such a difference in when the trees turn in different areas. When they are turning down here in Maryland, they would already be over with in Vermont. This is discouraging to people. Or at least it was sometimes discouraging to me.
In at least one challenge, I felt that I was at a disadvantage because I was old. The challenge was to take a photo that might have been taken in the past. I remember a LOT of the past, and the photos that I took reflected that past (I think 75 years ago is good enough to be in the past - it wasn't specified that it had to be 1700 or 1800). Some younger people claimed that items like electric poles would not be in photos from the past. But they WOULD as long as you didn't have to go back to the 1800s. There was no exact time frame specified in that challenge. I still deeply resent and am angered by those criticisms made by crass know-it-all youngsters and which I regard as both unjust and wrong. And the pictures that were taken were often of re-enactments and those kinds of things are prettied up for the paying guests - that was like a stage show and wouldn't have been quite like that at the time. (There was no such thing as permapress back then. Colors would have been more muted as clothing was worn and washed. My mother who was born in 1909 would get one pair of shoes a year and one nice dress for church and after church, you took off your good dress and put on last year's dress which had to be mended and probably lengthened and let out to fit.)
Maybe we could alternate between an artistic challenge (patterns, abstracts, etc) and technical.
I don't think there is really anything wrong with repeating a challenge. If you have to take a fresh photo for the challenge, then it would be good to see if you have improved your technique since the last time. And maybe the top three people from the previous challenge could judge. So if we were to have another tilt-shift challenge, the top three people who got the most votes for the last one could judge the second one.
I don't belong to the Facebook group.
I only found out about the challenges by looking for them in the Challenge section after each challenge was in the voting stage. If something happened and I missed that, I would miss the Challenge. I don't know how to subscribe to the Challenge section.
“"..an adventure is an inconvenience rightly considered." G.K. Chesterton”
Prizes weren't a particularly strong motivator for me either. I was initially curious (after finding Dgrin) about all the SM related hoohah, but had no intention of shelling out for it, so after getting a 'place' (5th iirc) I could see for myself @ no cost. Suffice to say that when I more recently bagged another SM sub, I didn't even bother taking it up.
These days I only enter challenges if the theme fits in with my (fairly narrow) interests. Wildlife poses enough challenges (for me) to getting the sort of shots that I'm after. At this point in my life I can't see the point in doing stuff that doesn't interest me
Feedback - yes, needs a bit of thought if to be done 'properly' and of use to both parties - in an ideal world, I'd suggest that the recipient should at least acknowledge the effort expended by the giver, irrespective of whether they agree or not. My experience is that this isn't always the case
I have no problem seeing when (new) challenges start or the other stuff associated with them - without having recourse to accessing FB (not a member).
Personally, I consider the Alphabet gig (and the pic association one) more of a search / tag etc task than a 'photographic' challenge. Any pic can have a vast number of tags associated with it, and so anyone with a fair number of pics has a large source of material, given the time and inclination - at least the DSS required a targeted approach, so from that pov it was potentially more useful.
I note with interest that relatively few people make up the majority of posts on the 'Alphabet' ... top 6 placed more than 2/3 of the total posts, with one posting more than 1/3 of what they were allowed to post - 124 /333 when total @ 666. Seems more like advertising / PR to me when watermarks are involved
Re challenges - I'd suggest that all means of ID'ing the images be removed at time of being judged /voted on. I accept that this won't be of any use if pics are posted for pre-entry comments, but it'd help re cliques / 'personalised voting', imo.
Kudos to all who run this stuff, indeed - as a mod / admin elsewhere on the net for over a decade, I've some idea of what might be involved ...
.....
Personally, I consider the Alphabet gig (and the pic association one) more of a search / tag etc task than a 'photographic' challenge. Any pic can have a vast number of tags associated with it, and so anyone with a fair number of pics has a large source of material, given the time and inclination - at least the DSS required a targeted approach, so from that pov it was potentially more useful.
I note with interest that relatively few people make up the majority of posts on the 'Alphabet' ... top 6 placed more than 2/3 of the total posts, with one posting more than 1/3 of what they were allowed to post - 124 /333 when total @ 666. Seems more like advertising / PR to me when watermarks are involved .....
pp
The challenge of it is to find something that you have taken that fits with the next letter, before someone else finds one first. In any rate, those that are playing it have been the main contributors to this forum for years(most of them) and are the ones that want to keep this forum alive. They are the ones that were participating in the DSS at least 99% of the time. Thus why would it surprise you that they are the only ones still here participating after DSS?
As for watermarks that are "advertising". This leads me to believe that you may have never had an image stolen from you when posting it on an open forum like this have you? I have found at least 20 some odd images of mine posted on forums that they should not have been posted on. One was posted on a forum that was down right discusting. I realized that when you put an image out there digitally, you have no control of it other than your markings. You better believe that I have learned that the hard way when I saw one of my images hanging in the window of a Kits Camera shop (which no longer exists). They could not see my watermark because it was so light, but it was across the image in the snow. And I could find only a trace of it in the image, but it was enough to prove it was mine. They were given the image from someone who was trying to sell it through them. It was of Alaskan Sand Cranes. Thus do not be so quick to judge when people watermark so largely on their images. The motives are purely justified.
A little known fact is that you can subscribe to a forum too. Go to the forum, Dgrin Challenges and in the Forum Tools menu (it will be toward the top and on the right hand side, just above the page counter), select "subscribe to forum".
Moderator Journeys/Sports/Big Picture :: Need some help with dgrin?
The challenge of it is to find something that you have taken that fits with the next letter, before someone else finds one first. In any rate, those that are playing it have been the main contributors to this forum for years(most of them) and are the ones that want to keep this forum alive. They are the ones that were participating in the DSS at least 99% of the time. Thus why would it surprise you that they are the only ones still here participating after DSS?
As for watermarks that are "advertising". This leads me to believe that you may have never had an image stolen from you when posting it on an open forum like this have you? I have found at least 20 some odd images of mine posted on forums that they should not have been posted on. One was posted on a forum that was down right discusting. I realized that when you put an image out there digitally, you have no control of it other than your markings. You better believe that I have learned that the hard way when I saw one of my images hanging in the window of a Kits Camera shop (which no longer exists). They could not see my watermark because it was so light, but it was across the image in the snow. And I could find only a trace of it in the image, but it was enough to prove it was mine. They were given the image from someone who was trying to sell it through them. It was of Alaskan Sand Cranes. Thus do not be so quick to judge when people watermark so largely on their images. The motives are purely justified.
If the 'challenge' is to be first (with the next letter themed pic) - then my comments re efficient tagging / searching still stands.
No, the participants don't surprise me (and didn't say they did) - but I thought part of the remit was to draw in 'new blood'?
Yes, I've had pics (that I've been paid for) nicked off the net (including some used by UK national papers) ... and found them in strange places ... with both my name and the agency marketing them's name removed ... and then published elsewhere.
(some of mine,together with those of many other 'grinners were nicked en masse too a year or two ago - iirc?)
Nothing against watermarks / copyrights ... but as we all know (and it's an oft discussed subject here and elsewhere) there's a whole host of different approaches to doing them.
I also know of several well established (wildlife) pros who don't watermark their pics at all, btw.
"If the 'challenge' is to be first (with the next letter themed pic) - then my comments re efficient tagging / searching still stands."
Since I don't have my photos tagged, this only applies to me insofar as sufficient time and ability to search (and of course being someone who has a fair number of pics has a large source of material. In other words, an old person who has been taking photos a long time, and has time on her hands. In the beginning I thought we were to try to get a photo of a different illustration of a letter of the alphabet - i.e. a word that had not been used before. But I soon lost the ability to remember exactly what had been previously used and of course for some letters like Z there aren't that many things to illustrate other than zebras. I think the Challenge is fun, but I perceive that I have been having too much fun with this and should let other people get a photo in there. So I've tried to wait for a significant amount of time before entering a photo. I also did not appreciate that this was not just a game for fun. I'm not sure what it is - I don't know where the challenge comes into it. And I've wanted to comment but haven't been quick enough plus I find the process a little bit too complicated.
It is more or less the same with the Photo Association Game isn't it? And I don't see you complaining about that.
“"..an adventure is an inconvenience rightly considered." G.K. Chesterton”
It is more or less the same with the Photo Association Game isn't it? And I don't see you complaining about that.
I mentioned it (in brackets) in post 39.
I'm not 'complaining' about either, btw - because I have no interest in either (think I put one pic in photoassoc thread 'cos it was handy and relevant)
I've seen many comments / posts about how helpful 'grinners are in general re helping newbies to improve - with which I'd agree.
All I'm suggesting is that looking for an (existing) pic that has some element beginning with a particular character ... doesn't - to my mind (maybe 'cos I'm a Brit, eh? ) seem to fit that particular remit.
I thought this particular thread had morphed into a thread seeking ideas about where to go with a successor to the DSS challenges - which I did say I could see the point of - from a photographic learning pov.
As such, I would've thought that any pertinent valid comment should be tabled - rather than dismissed out of hand?
As such, I would've thought that any pertinent valid comment should be tabled - rather than dismissed out of hand?
You may be interested to know that the word "tabled" has an exactly opposite meaning in the US from in the UK. When we 'table' something here, it means to put it aside to deal with it later.
20. Parliamentary Procedure .
a.Chiefly U.S. to lay aside (a proposal, resolution, etc.) for future discussion, usually with a view to postponing or shelving the matter indefinitely.
b.British . to present (a proposal, resolution, etc.) for discussion.
When my daughter was on a job exchange (US to UK) she found this was one of the particularly troublesome and unexpected differences.
“"..an adventure is an inconvenience rightly considered." G.K. Chesterton”
first off, this thread is just to announce the closing of the DSS. Second, the Alphabet game is just that, a game for those who enjoy this sort of thing. One could even call it an interlude to keep the forum busy while we fine tune what is to come and do not need to be evaluated as anything more than us just having some fun. So lets lighten up on that point!
As for open discussion for up and coming events, I am open to ideas about how to encourage more people to join in on the board, that is what I was referring to when I said I was open for suggestions. However, as for the up and coming new challenges, those are not open for discussion at this time as it is being hammered out by quite a few moderators at this time and we do not want "too many cooks to spoil the stew."
Paul, I see that in your way you are trying to help, but you are not participating in the Alphabet game and thus, there is no need for you to like it or comment on it being here. You do not participate and I am fine with that, but for those who enjoy the Alphabet game, can continue to enjoy it. No problems!
Paul, I see that in your way you are trying to help ... //
Yes - that's all - making any (reasoned) post(s) about a non-trivial issue always takes time - as in this thread - so I don't do such things on the 'spur of the moment' (probably a [different] US definition for that one too ).
From tomorrow I'll be away for a week in (hopefully) a net-free environment ... so you'll all have a bit of peace n' quiet
I don't know if the statistics will back me up, but it seems that much of the decline in participation began when the Mega Challenge disappeared. I think that the Mega was very stimulating because it gave me both a goal and a measure of progress toward that goal. I had a sense of accomplishment when I placed in the top 5 and qualified for a Mega.Chris
I agree with that 100%. That was about the time that I quit the challenges. It seemed that the main challenge and incentive was taken away when the Mega's were ended. Although I haven't participated in the Challenges in a while, it was nice to know they were there. I am sad to see them go also and hope that something similar will be brought to Dgrin sometime soon! I have to admit, it was nice to learn and have a chance to pay for my membership at the same time!
I admit that I was one who had a problem critiquing the entries. I was fine when we had judges, but when the people entering became the sole judges, I thought that the votes would be swayed by comments made (both positive and negative). I backed off and stopped commenting. Human nature is what it is.
I have also grown a lot due to the Challenges. My one and only Challenge that took first place was recently selected to be shown in a local art exhibit. The print was sold before I got to the Exhibit on opening night. Had it not been for the Challenges, I wouldn't have taken that shot or dared to enter any photo in an exhibit!
I hope this is just a break and the Challenges will come back stronger than ever.
PS. I'd like to add that the 'prizes' were helpful for those of us who use SmugMug for professional purposes. If you don't, I can see why you wouldn't think winning something was important. As I said though, the Challenges filled two slots; learning AND helping the wallet out.
Thanks to all of the moderators for keeping DSS going for so long! I would not be the photographer I am today without the challenges and the critiques I both gave and received.
I joined Dgrin to participate in the challenges. When I first started, the prizes were a strong motivation for me. Being financially challenged, I could not afford a SmugMug pro site. At first, I had little success but much growth from the strong commenting community. I understood that giving comments was important if I wanted to receive comments. My early comments may have been off base, but the experience was essential and fostered my growth as much as receiving comments on my photos. It focused my attention on what makes a strong photo.
I was fortunate to be able to judge one of the challenges before the change to community voting. It was an excellent growth experience. I continued to enter every challenge for several years, even after I won my first Mega. The two week timeframe itself was challenging and I would usually generate ideas for the first few days. In some cases, I was spending 20 hours per week in the execution and commenting.
Several times, I commented on every photo in the gallery. That was also an excellent exercise. Sometimes it was hard to find the right words to give constructive criticism to a newbie. I did not want to drive new participants away, because they are essential to the health of the challenges. After a while, people move on to other challenges. Some find new opportunities in photography that were fostered by the growth engendered by the challenges. Some become moderators.
Sometimes life just gets in the way, which is what happened to me. I couldn't continue to put in the same level of effort. In the last year and a half, I have continued to enter and comment occasionally. What I miss most is the pre-posting and commenting that went on when I first started. There would sometimes be several pages of posts.
I don't know what level of effort was required to set up the galleries, but I liked that over having them posted in a thread like the mini-challenges. Photos don't go missing after a while like they do in threads. And it is easier to connect comments to the photos.
Thanks again! It's been a great ride. I hope any new challenge setup can revive the level of participation. The key is to get a continuing stream of new participants.
I haven't had the time to express my sorrow for this decision, but I like what you said Sandy, and I loved most of your entries, which I thought and think where way under appreciated.
Anyway, before I find myself the courage to put some words in this thread, I'd like to say that I would LOVE to see which one of your photos was the one selected and sold Congratulations clap
I agree with that 100%. That was about the time that I quit the challenges. It seemed that the main challenge and incentive was taken away when the Mega's were ended. Although I haven't participated in the Challenges in a while, it was nice to know they were there. I am sad to see them go also and hope that something similar will be brought to Dgrin sometime soon! I have to admit, it was nice to learn and have a chance to pay for my membership at the same time!
I admit that I was one who had a problem critiquing the entries. I was fine when we had judges, but when the people entering became the sole judges, I thought that the votes would be swayed by comments made (both positive and negative). I backed off and stopped commenting. Human nature is what it is.
I have also grown a lot due to the Challenges. My one and only Challenge that took first place was recently selected to be shown in a local art exhibit. The print was sold before I got to the Exhibit on opening night. Had it not been for the Challenges, I wouldn't have taken that shot or dared to enter any photo in an exhibit!
I hope this is just a break and the Challenges will come back stronger than ever.
PS. I'd like to add that the 'prizes' were helpful for those of us who use SmugMug for professional purposes. If you don't, I can see why you wouldn't think winning something was important. As I said though, the Challenges filled two slots; learning AND helping the wallet out.
This decision was very sad to me too. So sad that I even don’t know how to express it…
However, I have to admit that it was not a surprise. I have been seeing a possible end for awhile now, due to the decrease of enthusiasm, translated into a lower value of photography and less and less participation.
I started to perceive this, first when the public vote started, and later when the mega’s disappeared.
Over time there were many discussions around the voting system, starting with the well known saying: “the judges are blind” and ending with what so well Divamom said about the inconvenience of the public judgment.
I’m sorry to say that I was one who chose the public vote, not thinking of how it can turn out.
I’m not saying that the public vote was entirely based on popularity, but it was highly influenced by it.
- I have to say that I tested it on myself: when I posted my entries to pre-judging, especially when I inserted some kind of related “content”, I received more votes than when I didn’t.
* There where wonderful entries highly unappreciated, just because the participants didn’t socialize (at all or not enough). Along with Sandy, another fantastic photographer that I’m thinking of now of, is John Bennett (johnloguk) - this last contest was for him the ONLY ONE he ever won on Dgrin! - It is very sad to see such a waste of talent.
Going back to the last system of voting done by the last winner, I can say that being myself in the situation of judging, I understood what a precarious way of appreciating people’s work was.
I personally didn’t have enough experience to do it. When I have to judge, I always feel guilty of not doing it right.
Bottom line - none of the systems worked well…
Once I participated in a physical photography club - There, they were having for an annual fee, a professional who came once in awhile to judge the periodic contests. I really liked his comments on every photo and learned a lot of things.
I proposed the same thing here on Dgrin - we where told that nobody would volunteer to do that… Well, I was not talking about volunteering - I proposed to have professionals payed for doing that.
We could have (every participant) pay a little fee, exactly like being in a club.
Smugmug/Dgrin raised the prices, but reduced the benefits instead… I really think it could have been different.
I have to give thanks however for the past generosity on giving to us the challenges and prizes
I also want to give thanks to the wonderful moderators in those great, memorable early days and today.
I don’t know what the Smugmug/Dgrin business strategy is, but if they will ever reconsider the challenges, I think too that Facebook would be a good way, not only to advertise the event, but also a good place to make the challenges happen - easier to manage too.
Ok, I'll admit that I stopped contributing in the DSS (not that I ever did so really regularly), because my last entry frustrated me so much. The voting started to make absolutely no sense to me, so much so that I'm incredibly surprised to have even placed in the last last challenge (and yet, I still have NO idea why people liked my last image). I entered this photo in the high key challenge http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=222666&page=2.
The photo that won was great, but it was very similar to mine, the main difference being that it achieved the high key effect, in part, by using a large expanse of blank white background. This is probably one of the best photos I've ever taken- it took a lot of work, I'm not a studio photographer, and I really needed to stretch to get the photo. The photo that won got over 400% more votes than mine did, and I got absolutely no feedback why. It's not that I didn't win, and said I'm going to take my toys and go home, it's that other than the voting, there was no feedback, and for all I knew, yeah, people like the other photographer better, since our photos were so similar, yet got such a huge difference in the # of votes. (i had posted the image much earlier in the challenge for feedback, so anyone who read the forum wouldn't have thought I'd copied the other theme, I hope)
The challenge did push me to work on the photo, which was great, and helped me settle on this crop, but it wasn't the impetus for it, the new cat was, the challenge just gave me the time frame to drive me.
Thank you, Tatiana. I have always felt the same way about your talent. Your travels have provided some excellent portraits over the years! I was always excited to see your entries. As for John L.; I always thought of him as a Thomas Kinkaid of photography. He has a way with light that no one else can consistently master. I am shocked to find out that he has not won before! I have been a huge fan of both of you (and others) over the years.
As for my art exhibit entry, I'm sure you'll remember it well. It is disturbing and some people advised me at the time not to enter it. The theme was Fear or Courage.
Well, I remember that back in time on the old judging system (which finally was also based on the public vote),
somebody said that if Ansel Adams would have entered these challenges, he would have never won
This will maybe give to the Dgrin gurus something to think about...
I am not sure where your getting your info on Johnloguk, but he did well and placed 13 times! But he also didn't enter every single round either. There has been a few images that was a total shock that they had won and not the obvious winner that should have, but when looking at the votes and who voted for each image, they honestly got there by no particular pattern of voting that would make it suspicious.
The voting was monitored closely, and there was only one time that the whole round was eliminated because of foul play. Which actually turned out to be a mistake of a new person who actually learned a lesson. Thus, the voting was watched and was not a popularity contest as some may think.
Regardless, to say the least here, the new challenges will not have voting. Be watching the boards because soon, the type of challenges that will happen will be announced!
John is one of my favorite photographers and I know sometimes he did well, but I don't recall him being the winner...
I may have missed some small things, because of course I haven't watched closely details on his activity... but from my point of view he was under appreciated.
- this is what I meant.
John is one of my favorite photographers and I know sometimes he did well, but I don't recall him being the winner...
I may have missed some small things, because of course I haven't watched closely details on his activity... but from my point of view he was under appreciated.
- this is what I meant.
Hmmm....so let me try and understand what your point is. Are you saying that anyone who has placed in the top images 13 times and even placed first. In your opinion, their work was considered under appreciated?
Well, I won on Dgrin quite a few times and I also know that John is much better than me, so the logical conclusion is yes
Being on the top IS an appreciation without doubt, but winning the first place is a little more - I would say...
Now, John was just an example, and I'm not trying to make a parallel between his work and mine (first, mine is just a play),
but the things are (were) as I previously said, sometimes influenced by other factors like socialization.
Lets explore what I know about the statement of "sometimes influenced by other factors like socialization". This challenge board and all of dgrin, was essentially set up for the aspect of socialization and support of photographers. In the beginning of the DSS challenges, just about everyone posted their work pre challenge, for honest feedback. That is what they got and images improved before being entered. If you look at the quality of images entered at the beginning of the challenges, they were of much higher quality and compositions than toward the end of the challenges.
Now taking that into consideration, somewhere things started tapering off of people posting before entering. It started with a few thin skinned people who got their feelings hurt when people criticized their work, and a few newbies who didn't know the proper way to critique an image. Once we got all that settled down, and the offended people basically dropped out, we ended up with fewer people pre posting and a lot of people saying "good job!" type of responses to images that were being pre posted.
As a moderator, I had to stay completely neutral, because it was decided long time ago, that if a moderator critiques, it will influence the voting. Thus, I was unable to critique those images that were not getting the right response they needed. None of the other participants wanted to critique anymore. Afraid they saw things too differently from others. Guess what? We all see things differently from others! Its up to each photographer/artist to be confident enough in their own work, to know what they like and do not like about their own work. They can help others who ask, and those who ask can either make the changes or decided they like it their way better. Regardless, the challenges were created for social aspect and for learning. As to influencing the vote, I did not see that. The voting always was on the up and up that I could see.
Just about all pre posting stopped after the incidence of one person whose image was not the best for obtaining votes, but they had gotten a lot of the "good jobs" type of comments, plus a little extra because of the process they used to obtain the image was questionable, but not out of the scope of the challenge rules. Thus it was up to the voters on if they thought the image was worth voting for or not. When the image didn't place, the person got really upset and no amount of consoling was to be found. That is when all pre posting stopped and the social aspect of this forum died. The last couple rounds we did have a couple trying to stir up the social end, and I very much appreciated it. But that might have been too little too late.
I would estimate that 2/3 of the votes were coming from other dgrin users and not just those who participate in the challenges at any given time. If they were not regulars in participating in the challenges, they most likely were not influenced by whether an image was pre posted for comment or not. Thus, people voted for what they liked the most. I see nothing wrong with that because that is what we asked, "Pick your top 10..." ect.
So voting is not what killed the challenges. It is the social aspect and the much needed learning of how to properly critique. Thus, as I have said before, I will soon be announcing the new challenges and we shall go from there!
Comments
Don
'I was older then, I'm younger than that now' ....
My Blog | Q+ | Moderator, Lightroom Forums | My Amateur Smugmug Stuff | My Blurb book Rust and Whimsy. More Rust , FaceBook .
Challenges are announced on the side bar. The start of each, the voting thread, and some information on prior challenges are all there (well, no new challenge info).
If you had a choice, how would you like to see new stuff? What would be your ideal way to stay informed?
www.lisaspeakmanphotography.com
This is something for us to consider. Thanks for the idea.
Suggestions are always welcome. Word of mouth is one thing. But we definitely will be thinking on this.
- mix of "artistic" challenges, and those which might pull in photographers from different specific genres, eg landscape, portraits, sports, PJ, couples/weddings etc.
- Prizes. Sad to say, it does make a difference.
- Judges of some kind. The old system of judges followed by shortlist which went to popular vote OR even the reverse (popular vote to create the shortlist then judges pick the winners) do add credibility that might draw newcomers in, especially when combined with prizes.
- maybe make it once a month (or every two months). Eases pressure on the administrators/prizes
- twitter and fb announcements.
- announcements in relevant dgrin subforms (eg for a portrait challenge, make sure documentary and people forums have a sticky about it. Etc).
As I say, random thoughts. Use (or not) as you will.
I struggle with the feedback issue. I would like to say things about the alphabet challenge, but it is too hard. (and it goes too fast) As for people asking feedback for other challenges, I felt that either I was unqualified to give feedback or that my tastes were not in the mainstream so what I would say wouldn't be relevant and might be harmful since I have definite idiosyncratic ideas and what I would like or dislike wouldn't be good guidance. For instance I don't like color photos that are rendered in black and white or sepia except in extremely limited circumstances. Most of the time I think it is a cop-out. The same with the HDR or extra saturation. Hurts my eyes.
Some of the challenges that were for specific types of photos - lets take Windows for an example - I feel give an unfair advantage to people who live in places where they can photograph a beautiful mountain or lake through their window. The photos that were the prettiest won. The same for Spring Flowers because some places don't have any such thing as Spring. And Fall colors where the photo has to be fresh is unfair when there is such a difference in when the trees turn in different areas. When they are turning down here in Maryland, they would already be over with in Vermont. This is discouraging to people. Or at least it was sometimes discouraging to me.
In at least one challenge, I felt that I was at a disadvantage because I was old. The challenge was to take a photo that might have been taken in the past. I remember a LOT of the past, and the photos that I took reflected that past (I think 75 years ago is good enough to be in the past - it wasn't specified that it had to be 1700 or 1800). Some younger people claimed that items like electric poles would not be in photos from the past. But they WOULD as long as you didn't have to go back to the 1800s. There was no exact time frame specified in that challenge. I still deeply resent and am angered by those criticisms made by crass know-it-all youngsters and which I regard as both unjust and wrong. And the pictures that were taken were often of re-enactments and those kinds of things are prettied up for the paying guests - that was like a stage show and wouldn't have been quite like that at the time. (There was no such thing as permapress back then. Colors would have been more muted as clothing was worn and washed. My mother who was born in 1909 would get one pair of shoes a year and one nice dress for church and after church, you took off your good dress and put on last year's dress which had to be mended and probably lengthened and let out to fit.)
Maybe we could alternate between an artistic challenge (patterns, abstracts, etc) and technical.
I don't think there is really anything wrong with repeating a challenge. If you have to take a fresh photo for the challenge, then it would be good to see if you have improved your technique since the last time. And maybe the top three people from the previous challenge could judge. So if we were to have another tilt-shift challenge, the top three people who got the most votes for the last one could judge the second one.
I don't belong to the Facebook group.
I only found out about the challenges by looking for them in the Challenge section after each challenge was in the voting stage. If something happened and I missed that, I would miss the Challenge. I don't know how to subscribe to the Challenge section.
These days I only enter challenges if the theme fits in with my (fairly narrow) interests. Wildlife poses enough challenges (for me) to getting the sort of shots that I'm after. At this point in my life I can't see the point in doing stuff that doesn't interest me
Feedback - yes, needs a bit of thought if to be done 'properly' and of use to both parties - in an ideal world, I'd suggest that the recipient should at least acknowledge the effort expended by the giver, irrespective of whether they agree or not. My experience is that this isn't always the case
I have no problem seeing when (new) challenges start or the other stuff associated with them - without having recourse to accessing FB (not a member).
Personally, I consider the Alphabet gig (and the pic association one) more of a search / tag etc task than a 'photographic' challenge. Any pic can have a vast number of tags associated with it, and so anyone with a fair number of pics has a large source of material, given the time and inclination - at least the DSS required a targeted approach, so from that pov it was potentially more useful.
I note with interest that relatively few people make up the majority of posts on the 'Alphabet' ... top 6 placed more than 2/3 of the total posts, with one posting more than 1/3 of what they were allowed to post - 124 /333 when total @ 666. Seems more like advertising / PR to me when watermarks are involved
Re challenges - I'd suggest that all means of ID'ing the images be removed at time of being judged /voted on. I accept that this won't be of any use if pics are posted for pre-entry comments, but it'd help re cliques / 'personalised voting', imo.
Kudos to all who run this stuff, indeed - as a mod / admin elsewhere on the net for over a decade, I've some idea of what might be involved ...
pp
Flickr
The challenge of it is to find something that you have taken that fits with the next letter, before someone else finds one first. In any rate, those that are playing it have been the main contributors to this forum for years(most of them) and are the ones that want to keep this forum alive. They are the ones that were participating in the DSS at least 99% of the time. Thus why would it surprise you that they are the only ones still here participating after DSS?
As for watermarks that are "advertising". This leads me to believe that you may have never had an image stolen from you when posting it on an open forum like this have you? I have found at least 20 some odd images of mine posted on forums that they should not have been posted on. One was posted on a forum that was down right discusting. I realized that when you put an image out there digitally, you have no control of it other than your markings. You better believe that I have learned that the hard way when I saw one of my images hanging in the window of a Kits Camera shop (which no longer exists). They could not see my watermark because it was so light, but it was across the image in the snow. And I could find only a trace of it in the image, but it was enough to prove it was mine. They were given the image from someone who was trying to sell it through them. It was of Alaskan Sand Cranes. Thus do not be so quick to judge when people watermark so largely on their images. The motives are purely justified.
If the 'challenge' is to be first (with the next letter themed pic) - then my comments re efficient tagging / searching still stands.
No, the participants don't surprise me (and didn't say they did) - but I thought part of the remit was to draw in 'new blood'?
Yes, I've had pics (that I've been paid for) nicked off the net (including some used by UK national papers) ... and found them in strange places ... with both my name and the agency marketing them's name removed ... and then published elsewhere.
(some of mine,together with those of many other 'grinners were nicked en masse too a year or two ago - iirc?)
Nothing against watermarks / copyrights ... but as we all know (and it's an oft discussed subject here and elsewhere) there's a whole host of different approaches to doing them.
I also know of several well established (wildlife) pros who don't watermark their pics at all, btw.
pp
Flickr
Since I don't have my photos tagged, this only applies to me insofar as sufficient time and ability to search (and of course being someone who has a fair number of pics has a large source of material. In other words, an old person who has been taking photos a long time, and has time on her hands. In the beginning I thought we were to try to get a photo of a different illustration of a letter of the alphabet - i.e. a word that had not been used before. But I soon lost the ability to remember exactly what had been previously used and of course for some letters like Z there aren't that many things to illustrate other than zebras. I think the Challenge is fun, but I perceive that I have been having too much fun with this and should let other people get a photo in there. So I've tried to wait for a significant amount of time before entering a photo. I also did not appreciate that this was not just a game for fun. I'm not sure what it is - I don't know where the challenge comes into it. And I've wanted to comment but haven't been quick enough plus I find the process a little bit too complicated.
It is more or less the same with the Photo Association Game isn't it? And I don't see you complaining about that.
I mentioned it (in brackets) in post 39.
I'm not 'complaining' about either, btw - because I have no interest in either (think I put one pic in photoassoc thread 'cos it was handy and relevant)
I've seen many comments / posts about how helpful 'grinners are in general re helping newbies to improve - with which I'd agree.
All I'm suggesting is that looking for an (existing) pic that has some element beginning with a particular character ... doesn't - to my mind (maybe 'cos I'm a Brit, eh?
I thought this particular thread had morphed into a thread seeking ideas about where to go with a successor to the DSS challenges - which I did say I could see the point of - from a photographic learning pov.
As such, I would've thought that any pertinent valid comment should be tabled - rather than dismissed out of hand?
pp
Flickr
You may be interested to know that the word "tabled" has an exactly opposite meaning in the US from in the UK. When we 'table' something here, it means to put it aside to deal with it later.
20. Parliamentary Procedure .
a. Chiefly U.S. to lay aside (a proposal, resolution, etc.) for future discussion, usually with a view to postponing or shelving the matter indefinitely.
b. British . to present (a proposal, resolution, etc.) for discussion.
When my daughter was on a job exchange (US to UK) she found this was one of the particularly troublesome and unexpected differences.
As for open discussion for up and coming events, I am open to ideas about how to encourage more people to join in on the board, that is what I was referring to when I said I was open for suggestions. However, as for the up and coming new challenges, those are not open for discussion at this time as it is being hammered out by quite a few moderators at this time and we do not want "too many cooks to spoil the stew."
Paul, I see that in your way you are trying to help, but you are not participating in the Alphabet game and thus, there is no need for you to like it or comment on it being here. You do not participate and I am fine with that, but for those who enjoy the Alphabet game, can continue to enjoy it. No problems!
So Joyce you want to TABLE in the US sense what Paul wishes to TABLE in the UK sense.
Yes - that's all - making any (reasoned) post(s) about a non-trivial issue always takes time - as in this thread - so I don't do such things on the 'spur of the moment' (probably a [different] US definition for that one too
From tomorrow I'll be away for a week in (hopefully) a net-free environment ... so you'll all have a bit of peace n' quiet
Try not to hit too many thumbs with the hammers.
pp
Flickr
I agree with that 100%. That was about the time that I quit the challenges. It seemed that the main challenge and incentive was taken away when the Mega's were ended. Although I haven't participated in the Challenges in a while, it was nice to know they were there. I am sad to see them go also and hope that something similar will be brought to Dgrin sometime soon! I have to admit, it was nice to learn and have a chance to pay for my membership at the same time!
I admit that I was one who had a problem critiquing the entries. I was fine when we had judges, but when the people entering became the sole judges, I thought that the votes would be swayed by comments made (both positive and negative). I backed off and stopped commenting. Human nature is what it is.
I have also grown a lot due to the Challenges. My one and only Challenge that took first place was recently selected to be shown in a local art exhibit. The print was sold before I got to the Exhibit on opening night. Had it not been for the Challenges, I wouldn't have taken that shot or dared to enter any photo in an exhibit!
I hope this is just a break and the Challenges will come back stronger than ever.
PS. I'd like to add that the 'prizes' were helpful for those of us who use SmugMug for professional purposes. If you don't, I can see why you wouldn't think winning something was important. As I said though, the Challenges filled two slots; learning AND helping the wallet out.
Thanks Joyce and Sean!
Sandi
If I could tell the story in words, I wouldn't need to lug around a camera. ~Lewis Hine
http://sandizphotos-seascapes.smugmug.com/
I joined Dgrin to participate in the challenges. When I first started, the prizes were a strong motivation for me. Being financially challenged, I could not afford a SmugMug pro site. At first, I had little success but much growth from the strong commenting community. I understood that giving comments was important if I wanted to receive comments. My early comments may have been off base, but the experience was essential and fostered my growth as much as receiving comments on my photos. It focused my attention on what makes a strong photo.
I was fortunate to be able to judge one of the challenges before the change to community voting. It was an excellent growth experience. I continued to enter every challenge for several years, even after I won my first Mega. The two week timeframe itself was challenging and I would usually generate ideas for the first few days. In some cases, I was spending 20 hours per week in the execution and commenting.
Several times, I commented on every photo in the gallery. That was also an excellent exercise. Sometimes it was hard to find the right words to give constructive criticism to a newbie. I did not want to drive new participants away, because they are essential to the health of the challenges. After a while, people move on to other challenges. Some find new opportunities in photography that were fostered by the growth engendered by the challenges. Some become moderators.
Sometimes life just gets in the way, which is what happened to me. I couldn't continue to put in the same level of effort. In the last year and a half, I have continued to enter and comment occasionally. What I miss most is the pre-posting and commenting that went on when I first started. There would sometimes be several pages of posts.
I don't know what level of effort was required to set up the galleries, but I liked that over having them posted in a thread like the mini-challenges. Photos don't go missing after a while like they do in threads. And it is easier to connect comments to the photos.
Thanks again! It's been a great ride. I hope any new challenge setup can revive the level of participation. The key is to get a continuing stream of new participants.
Anyway, before I find myself the courage to put some words in this thread, I'd like to say that I would LOVE to see which one of your photos was the one selected and sold
Please show it to us!!!
Tatiana
TravelwaysPhotos.com ...... Facebook
VegasGreatAttractions.com
Travelways.com
However, I have to admit that it was not a surprise. I have been seeing a possible end for awhile now, due to the decrease of enthusiasm, translated into a lower value of photography and less and less participation.
I started to perceive this, first when the public vote started, and later when the mega’s disappeared.
Over time there were many discussions around the voting system, starting with the well known saying: “the judges are blind”
I’m sorry to say that I was one who chose the public vote, not thinking of how it can turn out.
I’m not saying that the public vote was entirely based on popularity, but it was highly influenced by it.
- I have to say that I tested it on myself: when I posted my entries to pre-judging, especially when I inserted some kind of related “content”, I received more votes than when I didn’t.
* There where wonderful entries highly unappreciated, just because the participants didn’t socialize (at all or not enough). Along with Sandy, another fantastic photographer that I’m thinking of now of, is John Bennett (johnloguk) - this last contest was for him the ONLY ONE he ever won on Dgrin! - It is very sad to see such a waste of talent.
Going back to the last system of voting done by the last winner, I can say that being myself in the situation of judging, I understood what a precarious way of appreciating people’s work was.
I personally didn’t have enough experience to do it. When I have to judge, I always feel guilty of not doing it right.
Bottom line - none of the systems worked well…
Once I participated in a physical photography club - There, they were having for an annual fee, a professional who came once in awhile to judge the periodic contests. I really liked his comments on every photo and learned a lot of things.
I proposed the same thing here on Dgrin - we where told that nobody would volunteer to do that… Well, I was not talking about volunteering - I proposed to have professionals payed for doing that.
We could have (every participant) pay a little fee, exactly like being in a club.
Smugmug/Dgrin raised the prices, but reduced the benefits instead… I really think it could have been different.
I have to give thanks however for the past generosity on giving to us the challenges and prizes
I also want to give thanks to the wonderful moderators in those great, memorable early days and today.
I don’t know what the Smugmug/Dgrin business strategy is, but if they will ever reconsider the challenges, I think too that Facebook would be a good way, not only to advertise the event, but also a good place to make the challenges happen - easier to manage too.
TravelwaysPhotos.com ...... Facebook
VegasGreatAttractions.com
Travelways.com
The photo that won was great, but it was very similar to mine, the main difference being that it achieved the high key effect, in part, by using a large expanse of blank white background. This is probably one of the best photos I've ever taken- it took a lot of work, I'm not a studio photographer, and I really needed to stretch to get the photo. The photo that won got over 400% more votes than mine did, and I got absolutely no feedback why. It's not that I didn't win, and said I'm going to take my toys and go home, it's that other than the voting, there was no feedback, and for all I knew, yeah, people like the other photographer better, since our photos were so similar, yet got such a huge difference in the # of votes. (i had posted the image much earlier in the challenge for feedback, so anyone who read the forum wouldn't have thought I'd copied the other theme, I hope)
The challenge did push me to work on the photo, which was great, and helped me settle on this crop, but it wasn't the impetus for it, the new cat was, the challenge just gave me the time frame to drive me.
As for my art exhibit entry, I'm sure you'll remember it well. It is disturbing and some people advised me at the time not to enter it. The theme was Fear or Courage.
Fear of Infinity
If I could tell the story in words, I wouldn't need to lug around a camera. ~Lewis Hine
http://sandizphotos-seascapes.smugmug.com/
Well, I remember that back in time on the old judging system (which finally was also based on the public vote),
somebody said that if Ansel Adams would have entered these challenges, he would have never won
This will maybe give to the Dgrin gurus something to think about...
TravelwaysPhotos.com ...... Facebook
VegasGreatAttractions.com
Travelways.com
The voting was monitored closely, and there was only one time that the whole round was eliminated because of foul play. Which actually turned out to be a mistake of a new person who actually learned a lesson. Thus, the voting was watched and was not a popularity contest as some may think.
Regardless, to say the least here, the new challenges will not have voting. Be watching the boards because soon, the type of challenges that will happen will be announced!
I may have missed some small things, because of course I haven't watched closely details on his activity... but from my point of view he was under appreciated.
- this is what I meant.
TravelwaysPhotos.com ...... Facebook
VegasGreatAttractions.com
Travelways.com
“PHOTOGRAPHY IS THE ‘JAZZ’ FOR THE EYES…”
http://jwear.smugmug.com/
Hmmm....so let me try and understand what your point is. Are you saying that anyone who has placed in the top images 13 times and even placed first. In your opinion, their work was considered under appreciated?
Being on the top IS an appreciation without doubt, but winning the first place is a little more - I would say...
Now, John was just an example, and I'm not trying to make a parallel between his work and mine (first, mine is just a play),
but the things are (were) as I previously said, sometimes influenced by other factors like socialization.
TravelwaysPhotos.com ...... Facebook
VegasGreatAttractions.com
Travelways.com
Now taking that into consideration, somewhere things started tapering off of people posting before entering. It started with a few thin skinned people who got their feelings hurt when people criticized their work, and a few newbies who didn't know the proper way to critique an image. Once we got all that settled down, and the offended people basically dropped out, we ended up with fewer people pre posting and a lot of people saying "good job!" type of responses to images that were being pre posted.
As a moderator, I had to stay completely neutral, because it was decided long time ago, that if a moderator critiques, it will influence the voting. Thus, I was unable to critique those images that were not getting the right response they needed. None of the other participants wanted to critique anymore. Afraid they saw things too differently from others. Guess what? We all see things differently from others! Its up to each photographer/artist to be confident enough in their own work, to know what they like and do not like about their own work. They can help others who ask, and those who ask can either make the changes or decided they like it their way better. Regardless, the challenges were created for social aspect and for learning. As to influencing the vote, I did not see that. The voting always was on the up and up that I could see.
Just about all pre posting stopped after the incidence of one person whose image was not the best for obtaining votes, but they had gotten a lot of the "good jobs" type of comments, plus a little extra because of the process they used to obtain the image was questionable, but not out of the scope of the challenge rules. Thus it was up to the voters on if they thought the image was worth voting for or not. When the image didn't place, the person got really upset and no amount of consoling was to be found. That is when all pre posting stopped and the social aspect of this forum died. The last couple rounds we did have a couple trying to stir up the social end, and I very much appreciated it. But that might have been too little too late.
I would estimate that 2/3 of the votes were coming from other dgrin users and not just those who participate in the challenges at any given time. If they were not regulars in participating in the challenges, they most likely were not influenced by whether an image was pre posted for comment or not. Thus, people voted for what they liked the most. I see nothing wrong with that because that is what we asked, "Pick your top 10..." ect.
So voting is not what killed the challenges. It is the social aspect and the much needed learning of how to properly critique. Thus, as I have said before, I will soon be announcing the new challenges and we shall go from there!