But I'll say again, the S4 is a super car. But Ian, why do you need AWD? Maybe for us northeasterners, but why all that weight? That's the one thing that will always make Audi's lose against BMW's (and others) in my book. A good pure sports car should be driven by the rear wheels. Granted, front and all wheel drivers can be made to feel great (heck, I love my new front driver), but for pure driving joy, there's nothing like being able to really control the car not only with steering inputs, but with the throttle.
Doc,
I'm going to have to disagree with you. In my book, even here in the midwest AWD is the way to go. Obviously we don't have the winters the northeasterns do, but AWD sure is nice on the few wintery days we do have.
The one thing we do get lots of is rain. Maybe it's just my imagination, AWD cars seem so much more stable when there's a lot of water on the road. For example: I had a '91 Sentra SER (:cry never should have sold that car.) Driving on the highway in heavy rain the sentra was horrible about tugging to one side or the other when one front tire would get into standing water. In the same situation, my AWD cars didn't have that tugging problem (even though all of them had a lot wider tire under them than the sentra.)
Besides, it's fun to be able to get off the line just as quick in a downpoor as you could on dry pavement!
Before you buy a 3.2 give some serious thought to the 2.0T. I loved my 1.8T and the new 2.0T should be a lot better.
Have you looked at a Subaru Legacy GT???
Road & Track just did a comparo of seven AWD sedans. The A4 2.0T came out on top with the Subie a very close second. The writers pointed out that the comparo was a head to head regardless of price, but it was worth noting that the Subie was $8k less than the Audi.
Road & Track just did a comparo of seven AWD sedans. The A4 2.0T came out on top with the Subie a very close second. The writers pointed out that the comparo was a head to head regardless of price, but it was worth noting that the Subie was $8k less than the Audi.
I've not looked at Subaru's in a while. But the last time I did, I felt that I was
looking through the mirror to see out the windshield. I wanted to like the car
but ergonomically, it didn't work.
Do you recall which issue R&T did the review? I'd like to look at that.
Moderator Journeys/Sports/Big Picture :: Need some help with dgrin?
I'm going to have to disagree with you. In my book, even here in the midwest AWD is the way to go. Obviously we don't have the winters the northeasterns do, but AWD sure is nice on the few wintery days we do have.
Hey you can disagree all you want. We all have different driving styles and opinions. So you're just telling me you're a leadfoot with no throttle finesse.
No seriously, if I can teach you anything, let it be this: an AWD car is NO safer on a slippery corner than a front or awd car with a similar chassis setup. FWD, RWD, AWD can all be setup via suspension and steering settings to under- or oversteer, among other things. For the most part, all road cars have the tendency to understeer, but that's another story. Once the car starts to slip in the corner, it doesn't matter which wheels begin to spin, they're spinning and losing traction and the weight of the car will throw you out of the corner. If you're AWD car had all-wheel steering so that all 4 wheels could point back into the corner and claw themselves back, then maybe you'd have an argument. And yes, I concede, in a panic situation when the car begins to slip, the panicky driver in a rwd car will hit the throttle and spin the car even more. HOWEVER, all the modern rwd cars have such amazing stability control systems that this will never happen. In the same situation, if you slam the brakes on an awd or fwd car and move all your weight to the front of the car, the rear end will whip around just as fast. I can match any argument for corner dymanics because its all based on where the weight is, NOT on where the drive is.
AWD cars get their advantage in being able to dig through deep stuff better, and climb up slippery slopes. Yes, no arguing there, your awd car will make it up a snowy hill much easier and faster, and you'll have to plow your driveway less.
Ian, I agree with Cletus on the 3.2. It's a great engine, but the A4 isn't that big a car and doesn't need it - the extra weight only makes it feel sloppy as hell. The 2.0T is a fabulous, fabulous, fabulous engine - it's the one in my GTI.
I've not looked at Subaru's in a while. But the last time I did, I felt that I was
looking through the mirror to see out the windshield. I wanted to like the car
but ergonomically, it didn't work.
Do you recall which issue R&T did the review? I'd like to look at that.
Subaru build quality is right on par with AMF era Harley Davidson's. If you're considering something with as much quality as an Audi, do yourself a favor and avoid the Subaru dealership.
Ian, I agree with Cletus on the 3.2. It's a great engine, but the A4 isn't that big a car and doesn't need it - the extra weight only makes it feel sloppy as hell. The 2.0T is a fabulous, fabulous, fabulous engine - it's the one in my GTI.
I'll take the 2T for a spin. I have all the time in the world to make up my
mind.
Moderator Journeys/Sports/Big Picture :: Need some help with dgrin?
Subaru build quality is right on par with AMF era Harley Davidson's. If you're considering something with as much quality as an Audi, do yourself a favor and avoid the Subaru dealership.
I don't know doc.
If we're talking reliability, from my experience it's pretty close with Subaru slightly ahead.
My A4 was relatively trouble free but it did have a couple electrical issues - driving down the highway at night all the sudden everything in the car goes dark for a split second, the engine stumbles and then everything snaps back to life. Had to jack with the ignition switch for about 10 minutes one night to get it to start. My mom had an A4 that started out ok then become a pretty effective money vacuum. My fathers A6 (2.7T - sweet car) has had a fair number of electrical pains, including an out of warranty instrument cluster replacement.
On the positives for Subie, my WRX had one problem - a clutch issue which turned out to be a design fault. It was fixed at no cost to me and my model year was the only one to have the issue (or so I've heard.) Other than that not one bit of trouble with it.
On the negative side for Subie, I've got a Forester that's been a little disapointing service wise. I can't complain too much as everything has been taken care of at no cost to me. We're on our third power steering pump and we're trying to track down a driveline issue, but with two years and 20k miles of powertrain warranty left, I'm not overly concerned. It's interesting that Consumer Report just listed the Forester as a best buy and gave it high marks for reliability.
If you're talking shut the door hear that great solid THUMP type build quality, then Subie is not in the same class as Audi & BMW. For what it is though, I think Subie builds a very, very good car.
Subaru build quality is right on par with AMF era Harley Davidson's. If you're considering something with as much quality as an Audi, do yourself a favor and avoid the Subaru dealership.
What do you base this off of?
Consumer reports Least Reliable Sporty Cars/Convertible Coupes: Volkswagen New Beetle Convertible, Mercedes-Benz SL, Mercedes-Benz CLK, Ford Mustang (V6)*, Chevrolet Corvette*, Audi S4.
SEDANS: Jaguar S-Type, Lincoln LS, Mercedes-Benz E-Class, Saab 9-3, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, BMW 5 Series (V8), Audi A8, Chrysler 300 (V8)*, BMW 7 Series.
---
Most reliable Small Cars: Toyota Echo, Honda Civic (2005), Toyota Prius, Honda Civic Hybrid (2005), Toyota Corolla, Subaru Impreza (non turbo).
Small SUVs: Toyota RAV4 (2005), Honda CR-V, Honda Element, Subaru Forester, Mercury Mariner*, Mitsubishi Outlander.
No Subi's in any of the Least Reliable categories, No Audi's in the most reliable (and more VWs in the least reliable).
Subie nuts: you guys need to learn your car terminology! So sorry, the AMF example was a bad one, I was trying to be funny!
I never said anything about reliability. Cletus, you gave a good example - the door thunk. Everything you touch on the Subie feels cheap, especially the interiors. They call the interior "spartan", I call it cheaper than a thrift store suit. The squeaks and rattles will soon overpower your stereo, and while the engine will keep running, the doors will stop working and the body will rot away. Yes, the feel and layout of knobs on the console shouldn't be the only thing you base your car purchase on, Subie can do a lot lot better in that area. I, for one, would never, ever pay the sums they're asking for their cars. The WRX may be beast in performance on paper, but how many days a year do you get to race? And then, how many days a year do you commute and fiddle with the radio and AC controls? The subie would be great if all, yes all, their models were at least 10-15% cheaper.
Audi build quality is head and shoulders above everyone. Including my beloved BMW, I admit. I'd still rather drive a bimmer for its dynamics traits, but as far as fit and finish go, it has recently lost out to the monster that is VAG (VW-Audi-Group).
***leave the A8 out of this. somewhere along the line they royally screwed the pooch on that car.
95,000+ miles and still humming along... I just need to get a new top for it; It's starting to leak finally after 11 years. Thankfully the rainy season this year has been light. It's a great car for commuting over Mulholland every day.
Thanks gents. I'm a little poorer this evening. Pulled the trigger on a A4 2T in a
nice Moro Blue. Drove the 3.2 again and then the 2T and then the 3.2 and
settled on the turbo. No S package though I was tempted by it...
Pictures later.
Went for a short break in drive this evening. The twisties, a bit of freeway,
Rain, Hail and slick as all get up roads (freaky weather we are having here).
I need to read the book now as I have no idea what "2:00h" in the Audi
equiv of a RID means. Maybe it's two hours to detonation or maybe it's a
two hour break or maybe...reading's hard
Moderator Journeys/Sports/Big Picture :: Need some help with dgrin?
Congrats Ian, welcome to the VAG club! We'll want a full report. And yes, I found I actually needed to RTFM for my Vdub as well. Have to admit, I can't figure out what 2:00h means. Don't dealers show you things anymore? Remember when they used to schedule a delivery appointment and spent a good hour with you, teaching you about the car? Oh right, I forgot 90% are 20 years old and the turnover rate in their employment is higher that than of my pants. Sorry, tangent...
Congrats Ian, welcome to the VAG club! We'll want a full report. And yes, I found I actually needed to RTFM for my Vdub as well. Have to admit, I can't figure out what 2:00h means. Don't dealers show you things anymore? Remember when they used to schedule a delivery appointment and spent a good hour with you, teaching you about the car? Oh right, I forgot 90% are 20 years old and the turnover rate in their employment is higher that than of my pants. Sorry, tangent...
go drive and enjoy!
I got the complete delivery thingy. But you know how it goes, you remember
only about 15% of what you are shown Plus I'm guessing no sales guy can
know all the menu trees/displays
So the Audi dealer also sells Porches...I mean Porsches. Since I walked into
the dealer through that entrance, I was treated to a looks see at a Carrera
GT and a Cayman S. I'm going back to take a test drive of the S next week.
As you might imagine, that GT 'aint going anywhere without a check for the
full value of the car and it's behind the velvet ropes.
A couple of longish test rides to confirm which model and I was good to go.
Spent a couple of hours doing the test drive thing. Back to the dealer to
find one that met most of my wants yielded the Moro Blue A4 pretty decked
out (hence the need to read). Comes with a Sirrius Satellite radio and 3 mo.
of free subscription.
The whole sales thing went pretty quick--it pays to do your homework and
check your sources before you go. It will save you a boat-load of time.
The car I chose had just been PDI'ed and was sitting in an offsite lot with
the cheap seat covers and some of the transport wrap still on the car. But
the best news (at least to me) is that it was fresh off the delivery truck and
had maybe a mile total on the ODO--anything I looked at on the lot had about
40 miles on it.
It's an outstanding car. Since I am a fan of "drive it like you stole it" break
in periods, I took it for a 100+ mile drive last night. As I mentioned, it was
raining, hailing and snowing in spots. Car handles well in adverse conditions
and for obvious reasons, I didn't push it. But I did try the acceleration and
boy, is it nice
One of the features I didn't want was the Navigation Package. I already have
said for the bike and it can move. This car had it and I reluctantly accepted
it (for a good price). The LCD becomes a display for many of the cars "multi
media" functions. Including the satellite and terrestrial radio stations. It's too
bright--need to find the contrast/brightness adjustment.
The Sirrius system is something I may not use. Why? First, it sounds like crap.
Tiny and full of audio compression artifacts. Not to mention the moment you
drop into the trees, it dies. I imagine it will be the same anywhere satellite
coverage is obstructed.
Controls are within easy to reach and feel well laid out. Most are easily
figured out as well--except maybe that 2:00h thingy The car has a
Tiptronic transmission. Meaning you can stuff it in "D" and let it decide or
move it to the Tiptronic side and shift yourself. Shifts smoothly either way.
I've owned trucks or other seemingly large vehicles for most of my driving
career and this is my first sedan in a long time. So far, so good.
I'm off to read the book and see if I can figure out what 2:00h means before
the dealer calls me a 2 o'clock flasher
Moderator Journeys/Sports/Big Picture :: Need some help with dgrin?
Comments
The S4 is just one of the ?4's I'm looking at. The others are the 3.2L AWD and
CVT. Looked at the 3 series BMW's. Not sure I want one tho.
Doc,
I'm going to have to disagree with you. In my book, even here in the midwest AWD is the way to go. Obviously we don't have the winters the northeasterns do, but AWD sure is nice on the few wintery days we do have.
The one thing we do get lots of is rain. Maybe it's just my imagination, AWD cars seem so much more stable when there's a lot of water on the road. For example: I had a '91 Sentra SER (:cry never should have sold that car.) Driving on the highway in heavy rain the sentra was horrible about tugging to one side or the other when one front tire would get into standing water. In the same situation, my AWD cars didn't have that tugging problem (even though all of them had a lot wider tire under them than the sentra.)
Besides, it's fun to be able to get off the line just as quick in a downpoor as you could on dry pavement!
Before you buy a 3.2 give some serious thought to the 2.0T. I loved my 1.8T and the new 2.0T should be a lot better.
Have you looked at a Subaru Legacy GT???
Road & Track just did a comparo of seven AWD sedans. The A4 2.0T came out on top with the Subie a very close second. The writers pointed out that the comparo was a head to head regardless of price, but it was worth noting that the Subie was $8k less than the Audi.
I've not looked at Subaru's in a while. But the last time I did, I felt that I was
looking through the mirror to see out the windshield. I wanted to like the car
but ergonomically, it didn't work.
Do you recall which issue R&T did the review? I'd like to look at that.
No seriously, if I can teach you anything, let it be this: an AWD car is NO safer on a slippery corner than a front or awd car with a similar chassis setup. FWD, RWD, AWD can all be setup via suspension and steering settings to under- or oversteer, among other things. For the most part, all road cars have the tendency to understeer, but that's another story. Once the car starts to slip in the corner, it doesn't matter which wheels begin to spin, they're spinning and losing traction and the weight of the car will throw you out of the corner. If you're AWD car had all-wheel steering so that all 4 wheels could point back into the corner and claw themselves back, then maybe you'd have an argument. And yes, I concede, in a panic situation when the car begins to slip, the panicky driver in a rwd car will hit the throttle and spin the car even more. HOWEVER, all the modern rwd cars have such amazing stability control systems that this will never happen. In the same situation, if you slam the brakes on an awd or fwd car and move all your weight to the front of the car, the rear end will whip around just as fast. I can match any argument for corner dymanics because its all based on where the weight is, NOT on where the drive is.
AWD cars get their advantage in being able to dig through deep stuff better, and climb up slippery slopes. Yes, no arguing there, your awd car will make it up a snowy hill much easier and faster, and you'll have to plow your driveway less.
Ian, I agree with Cletus on the 3.2. It's a great engine, but the A4 isn't that big a car and doesn't need it - the extra weight only makes it feel sloppy as hell. The 2.0T is a fabulous, fabulous, fabulous engine - it's the one in my GTI.
moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]
moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]
I'll take the 2T for a spin. I have all the time in the world to make up my
mind.
It was a neat article. IIRC it went
- Audi A4 2.0T
- Subie Legacy GT Spec B
- BMW 3??xi - can't remember if it was a 330 or a 325
- Lexus IS 250
- Infiniti G35
- Mazda Speed 6
- Volvo S40
I don't know doc.If we're talking reliability, from my experience it's pretty close with Subaru slightly ahead.
My A4 was relatively trouble free but it did have a couple electrical issues - driving down the highway at night all the sudden everything in the car goes dark for a split second, the engine stumbles and then everything snaps back to life. Had to jack with the ignition switch for about 10 minutes one night to get it to start. My mom had an A4 that started out ok then become a pretty effective money vacuum. My fathers A6 (2.7T - sweet car) has had a fair number of electrical pains, including an out of warranty instrument cluster replacement.
On the positives for Subie, my WRX had one problem - a clutch issue which turned out to be a design fault. It was fixed at no cost to me and my model year was the only one to have the issue (or so I've heard.) Other than that not one bit of trouble with it.
On the negative side for Subie, I've got a Forester that's been a little disapointing service wise. I can't complain too much as everything has been taken care of at no cost to me. We're on our third power steering pump and we're trying to track down a driveline issue, but with two years and 20k miles of powertrain warranty left, I'm not overly concerned. It's interesting that Consumer Report just listed the Forester as a best buy and gave it high marks for reliability.
If you're talking shut the door hear that great solid THUMP type build quality, then Subie is not in the same class as Audi & BMW. For what it is though, I think Subie builds a very, very good car.
I'll head to the library and see what I can find of the issue.
Consumer reports Least Reliable Sporty Cars/Convertible Coupes: Volkswagen New Beetle Convertible, Mercedes-Benz SL, Mercedes-Benz CLK, Ford Mustang (V6)*, Chevrolet Corvette*, Audi S4.
SEDANS: Jaguar S-Type, Lincoln LS, Mercedes-Benz E-Class, Saab 9-3, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, BMW 5 Series (V8), Audi A8, Chrysler 300 (V8)*, BMW 7 Series.
---
Most reliable Small Cars: Toyota Echo, Honda Civic (2005), Toyota Prius, Honda Civic Hybrid (2005), Toyota Corolla, Subaru Impreza (non turbo).
Small SUVs: Toyota RAV4 (2005), Honda CR-V, Honda Element, Subaru Forester, Mercury Mariner*, Mitsubishi Outlander.
No Subi's in any of the Least Reliable categories, No Audi's in the most reliable (and more VWs in the least reliable).
NOTE: I don't own either an Audi or a Subi.
I never said anything about reliability. Cletus, you gave a good example - the door thunk. Everything you touch on the Subie feels cheap, especially the interiors. They call the interior "spartan", I call it cheaper than a thrift store suit. The squeaks and rattles will soon overpower your stereo, and while the engine will keep running, the doors will stop working and the body will rot away. Yes, the feel and layout of knobs on the console shouldn't be the only thing you base your car purchase on, Subie can do a lot lot better in that area. I, for one, would never, ever pay the sums they're asking for their cars. The WRX may be beast in performance on paper, but how many days a year do you get to race? And then, how many days a year do you commute and fiddle with the radio and AC controls? The subie would be great if all, yes all, their models were at least 10-15% cheaper.
Audi build quality is head and shoulders above everyone. Including my beloved BMW, I admit. I'd still rather drive a bimmer for its dynamics traits, but as far as fit and finish go, it has recently lost out to the monster that is VAG (VW-Audi-Group).
***leave the A8 out of this. somewhere along the line they royally screwed the pooch on that car.
moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]
Speaking of that, how's the Miata running?
95,000+ miles and still humming along... I just need to get a new top for it; It's starting to leak finally after 11 years. Thankfully the rainy season this year has been light. It's a great car for commuting over Mulholland every day.
www.zxstudios.com
http://creativedragonstudios.smugmug.com
www.zxstudios.com
http://creativedragonstudios.smugmug.com
moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]
Thanks gents. I'm a little poorer this evening. Pulled the trigger on a A4 2T in a
nice Moro Blue. Drove the 3.2 again and then the 2T and then the 3.2 and
settled on the turbo. No S package though I was tempted by it...
Pictures later.
Went for a short break in drive this evening. The twisties, a bit of freeway,
Rain, Hail and slick as all get up roads (freaky weather we are having here).
I need to read the book now as I have no idea what "2:00h" in the Audi
equiv of a RID means. Maybe it's two hours to detonation or maybe it's a
two hour break or maybe...reading's hard
Sooooooooooo... do you own a camera ?
Congrats Ian, welcome to the VAG club! We'll want a full report. And yes, I found I actually needed to RTFM for my Vdub as well. Have to admit, I can't figure out what 2:00h means. Don't dealers show you things anymore? Remember when they used to schedule a delivery appointment and spent a good hour with you, teaching you about the car? Oh right, I forgot 90% are 20 years old and the turnover rate in their employment is higher that than of my pants. Sorry, tangent...
go drive and enjoy!
moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]
Gonna play nice in our sandbox?
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Yup. But it's dark, raining and could possibly snow.
Congrats!
I got the complete delivery thingy. But you know how it goes, you remember
only about 15% of what you are shown
know all the menu trees/displays
So the Audi dealer also sells Porches...I mean Porsches. Since I walked into
the dealer through that entrance, I was treated to a looks see at a Carrera
GT and a Cayman S. I'm going back to take a test drive of the S next week.
As you might imagine, that GT 'aint going anywhere without a check for the
full value of the car and it's behind the velvet ropes.
A couple of longish test rides to confirm which model and I was good to go.
Spent a couple of hours doing the test drive thing. Back to the dealer to
find one that met most of my wants yielded the Moro Blue A4 pretty decked
out (hence the need to read). Comes with a Sirrius Satellite radio and 3 mo.
of free subscription.
The whole sales thing went pretty quick--it pays to do your homework and
check your sources before you go. It will save you a boat-load of time.
The car I chose had just been PDI'ed and was sitting in an offsite lot with
the cheap seat covers and some of the transport wrap still on the car. But
the best news (at least to me) is that it was fresh off the delivery truck and
had maybe a mile total on the ODO--anything I looked at on the lot had about
40 miles on it.
It's an outstanding car. Since I am a fan of "drive it like you stole it" break
in periods, I took it for a 100+ mile drive last night. As I mentioned, it was
raining, hailing and snowing in spots. Car handles well in adverse conditions
and for obvious reasons, I didn't push it. But I did try the acceleration and
boy, is it nice
One of the features I didn't want was the Navigation Package. I already have
said for the bike and it can move. This car had it and I reluctantly accepted
it (for a good price). The LCD becomes a display for many of the cars "multi
media" functions. Including the satellite and terrestrial radio stations. It's too
bright--need to find the contrast/brightness adjustment.
The Sirrius system is something I may not use. Why? First, it sounds like crap.
Tiny and full of audio compression artifacts. Not to mention the moment you
drop into the trees, it dies. I imagine it will be the same anywhere satellite
coverage is obstructed.
Controls are within easy to reach and feel well laid out. Most are easily
figured out as well--except maybe that 2:00h thingy
Tiptronic transmission. Meaning you can stuff it in "D" and let it decide or
move it to the Tiptronic side and shift yourself. Shifts smoothly either way.
I've owned trucks or other seemingly large vehicles for most of my driving
career and this is my first sedan in a long time. So far, so good.
I'm off to read the book and see if I can figure out what 2:00h means before
the dealer calls me a 2 o'clock flasher
Nice to see you again.
moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]
My deepest sympathies mate....i forget there are parts of the world without palm trees.