Mainly, that was my biggest beef with SM. I found I was constantly fiddling with html/css code, javascript hacks, etc & not taking any pictures. While I do appreciate the fact that you literally can do anything you want with your site, its almost a necessity to do it up with a lot of coding, or else it looks pretty generic IMO, even with the themes.
Good point, but I guess it's a matter of preference. We try to make the site flow together, regardless of what themes are applied. So if I go from my brother's SmugMug galleries to a friend's, all the navigation is in the same spot. Each has a unique feel, but follows the same basic rules of page layout.
For those that want to mix it up, we offer an astounding array of customization options. Honestly though, I think your Zenfolio account looks fairly "generic" too, though I do love the photos.
There is still a problem with scrolling. Everything doesnt fit inside the browser window when viewing the thumbs along with the main photo in classic view mode. Any kind of scrolling on a photo site = bad. Honestly, the entire site should fill the browser window based on my screen resolution instead of wasting all that empty space on the sides. Most newer sites do this, SM still does not.
And I've said this before in the suggestions forum & it got blown off. Please PLEASE switch the main photo & thumbs around in the classic view mode. The main photo is right in the way & the pop up info is constantly getting activated because one must mouse over to the thumbs from the vertical scrollbar & then back again. Its a major annoyance. BOING BOING
Out of curiosity, what is your desktop resolution? Or more importantly, what is your web browser viewport size? The only time I ever scroll in SmugMug galleries is to read comments. At 1280 x 1024 resolution, I can easily get 12 thumbnails, the full main image and no scrollbar anywhere.
If I make my browser window smaller, SmugMug automatically recognizes that at a certain point it should display fewer thumbnails and a smaller main image to reduce the amount of scrolling required.
I didn't spend much time on it, but I chose a random gallery of yours on Zenfolio and a random gallery of mine on SmugMug, opened side by side browser windows and made them quite small. SmugMug managed to automatically fit the header, breadcrumb, buttons, 9 entire thumbnails, the main image, and all the page navigation. Zenfolio managed to get the header, breadcrumb, 5 thumbs and 5 partial thumbs, the main image, and part of the page navigation.
I know I'm biased, but I honestly prefer the SmugMug page layout in that case. There is no scrollbar along the bottom because the whole thing fits. I have everything I need without scrolling. Scrolling down just gets me the footer and comments.
Im not trying to criticize, I just want you guys to be aware of these things because I KNOW you can do better & make SM a beast. Building on old code can get you through for quite a while, but maybe its time for something totally new??
Ouch. The SmugMug viewing style is less than a year old. That's right, it was completely rewritten and redone in January of this year (http://blogs.smugmug.com/don/2007/01/22/hello-speed-beauty-brains-goodbye-alexa/). JT and our other SmugSorcerers did some amazing and fantastic things with it. And it will only get better from here.
Oh, one more thing. SmugMug is not afraid to buck trends and be different (case in point: black design in a white/pastel Web 2.0 world). But having page navigation run along the top and left side of pages just makes sense. That's where people's eyes and their cursors naturally start on a page.
When I click through from your Zenfolio homepage to your galleries, all of the navigation begins from the top and left, then suddenly shifts to the right side once I actually get inside a gallery. It's a bit annoying, but I can understand the need for it if the main image would normally have been partly off the screen.
Fact is, though, SmugMug galleries display the entire main photo and at least 9 thumbnails unless your viewport width is less than 700 pixels. I don't know anyone with a viewport that small.
Cute dog! Anyways, I think you are right about SM scalling "on the fly" better than Zen when you resize the window. I do prefer the SM way.
I think as long as you dont write a couple lines of album caption, have a lot of comments, etc then the SM layout will more or less fit pretty good within the browser without too much scrolling.
However, here is what it looks like with more content (MacBook 1280x800 resolution w Safari).
Notice I even have the bookmarks bar & status bar turned off in safari to give the page more viewing room.
Here is mine.
Notice how everything is lined up perfectly with the space filled up on the sides & with hardly a bit of room left for vertical scrolling.
Ouch. The SmugMug viewing style is less than a year old. That's right, it was completely rewritten and redone in January of this year (http://blogs.smugmug.com/don/2007/01/22/hello-speed-beauty-brains-goodbye-alexa/). JT and our other SmugSorcerers did some amazing and fantastic things with it. And it will only get better from here.
I didnt know they reworked it. Was it rebuilt from the ground up?? Its not bad, far from it, so I didnt mean to give that impression. Its just flawed when different elements are thrown into the mix, like I showed above.
I was mostly talking about SM taking up the entire browser window & how the thumbs/main photo should switch sides with each other, since people's cursors are more likely to going from the browsers vertical scrollbar to the thumbs, its a longer trip for them. Not to mention triggering the pop up info each time the cursor grazes the main photo, which is almost unavoidable.
Well, I don't think those were fair comparisons. The SmugMug gallery had a long description, the ZF one didn't. And that was a customized homepage (I test out a bunch of stuff on that SmugMug account, as my real galleries are elsewhere).
I guess our browsing styles are just vastly different. I almost never scroll down when browsing galleries on SmugMug. And even when I do scroll down, I do it with my mousewheel.
Well, I don't think those were fair comparisons. The SmugMug gallery had a long description, the ZF one didn't. And that was a customized homepage (I test out a bunch of stuff on that SmugMug account, as my real galleries are elsewhere).
I guess our browsing styles are just vastly different. I almost never scroll down when browsing galleries on SmugMug. And even when I do scroll down, I do it with my mousewheel.
They are totally fair. The Zenfolio album I used actually does have a fairly long description, its just displayed on an extra piece in the breadcrumb before the main album view & not on every single photo. Its like that for every album. See:
I could put it on the top or the side & it would still fit. The album description really doesnt need to be above every single photo you look at in the main viewing area.
That page of yours was using a custom theme, correct?? Most themes I see on SM all do that in the main classic photo view once you put a description & comments are left. Actually, my page was using a theme as well. Although, you are correct in saying it looks generic, I actually picked the most generic looking one.
Anyways, nomatter what theme I use in Zenfolio, its always ALWAYS lined up the exact same & doesnt make you scroll anymore than the default theme. See:
Im the same as you. I dont use the the browser's scrollbar either. I usually use my mousewheel or just use 2 finger scrolling when on my Macbook. But not everyone is like us. Some people like using that dang scrollbar for some reason.
Am I right in thinking that Zenfolio automatically adjusts the photo to the size of the screen it is being displayed on?
That is pretty cool. Will that be available on smugmug soon?
Am I right in thinking that Zenfolio automatically adjusts the photo to the size of the screen it is being displayed on?
That is pretty cool. Will that be available on smugmug soon?
The reason I signed up for smugmug was because of their layout. It's the best of the bunch in my opinion. Some of the other options had features I would have liked, but at the expense of not having a layout I liked. I'd love to be able to choose mpix or ezprints for the print lab, or to create discount coupons for potential customers... but none of that matters if my site doesn't look the way I want it; and smugmug was the only place I found that accomplished that.
Personal domains?
My needs are rather simple compared to the pros here since I mostly just use SmugMug for personal photos for family & friends. I've been a SmugMug user since March 2004 and have been extremely happy here, but something Zenfolio's offering for my current $40/year price level is the ability to use my own domain name for my photo gallery. That would be a really nice feature to have. I realize that's something SmugMug uses to help differentiate their pro-level accounts from others, but is considering offering the same feature for basic subscribers?
The reason I signed up for smugmug was because of their layout. It's the best of the bunch in my opinion. Some of the other options had features I would have liked, but at the expense of not having a layout I liked. I'd love to be able to choose mpix or ezprints for the print lab, or to create discount coupons for potential customers... but none of that matters if my site doesn't look the way I want it; and smugmug was the only place I found that accomplished that.
I have been a smugmug user since 2004, and was very happy to see it introduce all these themes a while back. However I do think zenfolio's layout is simpler and cleaner -- especially those square thumbnails (I know you can achieve the same effect through zoom thumbnail and there's also the BZT thing..but why can't smugmug produce those square thumbnails automatically? even flickr generate those for sets). Also being able to apply different layout without writing some CSS codes is very nice. I am very happy with smugmg yet the layout at zenfolio looks very tempting.
DOS vs. WINDOWS
This thread is quite interesting. I am a Phanfare user that is seeking a new location to store/share my photos (due to Phanfare's recent brainfart). I am not a professional photographer. I am a pro-sumer photographer with thousands of photos to keep. I tried Smugmug before choosing Phanfare. I chose Phanfare for ease of use, clean albums, and nice slideshows.
I've been trying both Smugmug and Zenfolio lately. As far as user interface, here's my comparison:
SmugMug is like using DOS. Zenfolio is like using Windows.
When you boil it down, SmugMug is just too dang complicated (and I'm not talking about customization / CSS / JS / etc). I'm talking about basic setup... there's just too many dang clicks to get stuff done............
I appreciate being able to customize and realize that is a dealbreaker for many (especially pros). However, at this point, I'll choose ease of use (for me and the viewer).
I have mentioned (in 2 different emails to SmugMug support) that templates would be very helpful. Each time I got a response saying... "Go look at DGRIN and ask some questions..." The truth is, I don't want to spend hours upon hours sifting through message boards...... I want to take and share photos! It seems that SmugMug doesn't really agree that their user interface is complicated..............
It feels like I've made more mouse clicks trying to setup stuff in SmugMug than all the mouse clicks I ever made working with Phanfare...
Interfaces and Functionality
I'm with the poster above 100%...DOS vs. Windows. I have been messing with the Smugmug Free Trial for a Pro account for several days now, and have essentially given up.
I wanted easy access to what my customer would see, and just never felt like I knew exactly where I was. I could figure it out...but my customers have to as well. I haven't put several hours into it...but should I have to? After all, we're talking about a photo gallery that allows people access with a password and to buy prints.
I am a computer professional, and do not believe I should have to pay $150 per year and then decipher a bunch of instructions, copy and paste a bunch of HTML...essentially paying for a learning curve I don't want.
I would assume that most of us pro's want a few things most of all:
1. A clean black gallery (to best contrast color, anyone who uses a brightly colored gallery is undermining the presentation of their own images.), and the host company name at the bottom only, with our own banner and URL.
2. Ease of access to personal galleries for customers, so I can be assured my customers will feel comfortable browsing and buying, with no worries of, "Where do I / How do I do this or that" which is DEADLY. I never even got that far.
I found Smugmug's gallery/category creation somewhat cumbersome. I hear they have very good support, and I would say they HAVE to, as without it people would quickly become frustrated.
All this being said...their management seems committed to satisfaction, and I have no doubt their product will continually improve. I know nothing about Zenfolio, other than at first glance it looked much more like a modern Windows interface, which is what people know and can navigate quickly.
For the time being I will present prints to my customers the old fashioned way, but eventually will go this route. I have no idea who I will use, but if I have to spend $150 every year...my site will look the way I want it to with little effort.
Maybe you guys should just clone Andy's site, make a few deviated versions...and have them available for pro's. I believe his site is essentially the basic style most are looking for.
Just FYI, Zenfolio now has their dedicated user forum up & running. There is a link to their official blog on the page as well. Haven't tried it yet, but it all looks nice.
I tried Z three times out of frustration with SM. Honestly, when someone asks about photo hosts, I recommend Z and only mention SM hoping they'll use the 5$ referral.
What keeps me here is the html pages. I can put my text pages on SM and will get rid of my webhost when my plan expires. Another thing is being able to customize almost every single aspect and keeping the same three boring colors I had on my 6 year old website. But at the peek of frustration, I was ready to let that go for Z's simplicity. I found a few cool things at SM, like making a binlingual site, but other things are sooooooooo complicated. The interface is awful. Email support is ok. I got the "read the forum" answer a couple of times. For the price I pay, it feels a bit amateurish sometimes. There's no good working "recent photos". It's such a basic feature, it should have been there since SM's creation. The list is long.
I think SM should work on the interface and perhaps offer domain name to Power Users or it will lose its edge to Z.
I tried Z three times out of frustration with SM. Honestly, when someone asks about photo hosts, I recommend Z and only mention SM hoping they'll use the 5$ referral.
What keeps me here is the html pages. I can put my text pages on SM and will get rid of my webhost when my plan expires. Another thing is being able to customize almost every single aspect and keeping the same three boring colors I had on my 6 year old website. But at the peek of frustration, I was ready to let that go for Z's simplicity. I found a few cool things at SM, like making a binlingual site, but other things are sooooooooo complicated. The interface is awful. Email support is ok. I got the "read the forum" answer a couple of times. For the price I pay, it feels a bit amateurish sometimes. There's no good working "recent photos". It's such a basic feature, it should have been there since SM's creation. The list is long.
I think SM should work on the interface and perhaps offer domain name to Power Users or it will lose its edge to Z.
Thanks again, Erick - as I said in your other thread, this is great feedback and we really, really appreciate it. We plan on acting on it, too.
I'm trying both out right now. I really like that you can customize your smugmug page to fit with your own website design. I don't see this option with Zenfolio. It's still a tough sell though with the price difference in each pro account. I'm not a pro, but I want a pro looking site. Print prices are also cheaper with Zenfolio, and they use Mpix which I'd begun using recently and have no experience using EZ, but imagine all the folks here can't be wrong.
I do agree that it's easier to get things done on Zenfolio, however so far it's been at a more limited scale. We'll see who wins my Ben Franklin.
I'm trying both out right now. I really like that you can customize your smugmug page to fit with your own website design. I don't see this option with Zenfolio. It's still a tough sell though with the price difference in each pro account. I'm not a pro, but I want a pro looking site. Print prices are also cheaper with Zenfolio, and they use Mpix which I'd begun using recently and have no experience using EZ, but imagine all the folks here can't be wrong.
I do agree that it's easier to get things done on Zenfolio, however so far it's been at a more limited scale. We'll see who wins my Ben Franklin.
I've played with Z, and of course use SM. Z is "easy" but is missing:
Photo comments. Z doesn't have them.
Customization. SM isn't EASY to customize, but with all the help on here, it doesn't require a Ph.D. in computers to do whatever you want. Z is "easy" but only has limited options.
Ability to use the site to add HTML only pages and even use paypal and google checkout to sell non-photo products! (without a commission)
Customer service is not even close. SM wins against anyone hands down.
Z has better "virtual" galleries. One photo in many places. But, since SM has unlimited storage, and there's a bulk-copy program, it's not really a deal breaker. I just post the photos twice.
Z has Mpix; but, you can always self-fulfill with SM and use Mpix. Only benefit to Mpix is metalic and true B&W. Fuji Crystal Archive is better than the Kodak paper. Last a LOT longer too (I use it as a selling point).
WAY more third-party progams and support for SM. Want to integrate your wordpress blog with SM? No problems. In Z? uh, well, you'll have to wait on that one.
Bottom line.. SM gets my money. I recommend it to EVERYONE I know. I've even blogged about it, and "reviewed" it on my other website. (Let's just say, I was quite pleased with SM.)
BUT, SM has places that Z beats them. Coupons are SORELY needed. Square thumbnails by default (BZT should be part of the core code, and an option added to the gallery config screen in SM). Also, SM needs a general face-lift. More ajax, more drag-and-drop, easier management of galleries and photos.
Overall, SM is responsive to customers, easy to customize, and has great support. Yes, they may be more expensive, but, for me, it's worth every penny!
I've played with Z, and of course use SM. Z is "easy" but is missing:
Photo comments. Z doesn't have them.
Customer service is not even close. SM wins against anyone hands down.
Bottom line.. SM gets my money. I recommend it to EVERYONE I know. I've even blogged about it, and "reviewed" it on my other website. (Let's just say, I was quite pleased with SM.)
So, how can you give an opinion on Zenfolio's customer service vs Smugmug's if you've only "played" with it?? Im sorry, but skimming Zenfolio for a few minutes doesnt count. Did you actually sign up for an account there & use it for an extended period of time?? I'm not trying to be a jerk, but if you didn't, thats not fair at all.
I can tell you right now that I've personally NEVER waited over an hour (most times much sooner) to receive a personal reply via email. Dare I say that its consistently faster than Smugmug was. *Gasp* And they have a moderated forum now too if you wanna go that route. Not saying SM doesnt have great CS, but Zen is no slouch either. They're equal in the CS department if you ask me.
And comments are coming in the next update. To be fair, Zenfolio hasnt been online nearly as long as Smugmug has. Just saying, you have to consider everything. It's not a features race.
So, how can you give an opinion on Zenfolio's customer service vs Smugmug's if you've only "played" with it?? Im sorry, but skimming Zenfolio for a few minutes doesnt count. Did you actually sign up for an account there & use it for an extended period of time?? I'm not trying to be a jerk, but if you didn't, thats not fair at all.
Yes, I signed up for an account. Yes, I played with the interface. I liked the shopping cart with *lots* of upsale opportunities. No, I didn't like the shopping cart where I had to pay 6% commission for them just to SEND ME THE ORDER vs. SM where I can make my own PP or Google Checkout cart for free.
I can tell you right now that I've personally NEVER waited over an hour (most times much sooner) to receive a personal reply via email. Dare I say that its consistently faster than Smugmug was. *Gasp* And they have a moderated forum now too if you wanna go that route.
My personal opinion: having the forum is essential. I don't want to rely on the support from Z or SM. I'd like to see what other people say. Plus, it builds a sense of community.
And comments are coming in the next update. To be fair, Zenfolio hasnt been online nearly as long as Smugmug has. Just saying, you have to consider everything. It's not a features race.
And, like I said, the deal breakers for me are the lack of customization and control over layout, content, scripts, forms, etc.. Also, I'm leery about Z's photo print guarantee.. They say it's guaranteed, but I couldn't find a single page (even their terms and conditions) where they say what they will cover and what they won't cover. I love SM's "whatever the reason, we'll take care of you" approach. It's a selling point to MY customers, and a reason for ME to stay here! It's a win-win-win. And, let's face it.. The paper used to print the photos isn't expensive. WE charge $8-15 for a 4x6, but, it's really only a few cents of raw material.
Oh, Z doesn't do backprinting either. BUT, they have "Guest accounts" which I think is sorely needed in SM. Basically a way to create a viewing account that I can assign security permissions to. It's an idea I've talked about before--and one that I especially like.
Win For Smugmug
Hey, I just wanted to say thanks to everyone. I settled on SM mostly due to the fanatical (crazy, compulsive, way over the top kind of support) support of this forum as well as a week trial period using both services.
It came down to this. After several days with Z, I'd done all I could do. After a week with SM I'd done all I needed to do and more. I don't even need a separate website anymore.
Lastly.. Implementing those square thumbs shows you guys really pay attention and are on top of improvement. This was driving me nuts in galleries using mixed portrait and landscape photos.
I have a Zenfolio account ....
I opened it when Photosite shut down as a quick alternative until I purchased and created my accout with Smugmug, and I like it was easy to use .. but honestly haven't even logged into it since I completed my smugmug site about 5 months ago .. HOWEVER .. being html, css challenged .. Smugs new slideshow still isn't working for me..hasn't been for 2 weeks now .. Allen gave me a few replies but nothing worked or I just did it wrong and never got another reply.. and now the new "square thumbs" seems to be screwing up my proof gallery featured photo even though I don't have it selected .. so .. If I can't straighten it all out .. never thought keeping my site up would be so complicated .. I may have to go revert back to my Zen! ()
As a frequent participant in the "which photo sharing service is the best" threads in other online forums, I've just recently started to see a bunch of fairly positive references to Zenfolio, http://www.zenfolio.com.
With the usual suspects like pbase or flickr or imageshack, I know how to explain why many users would rather choose smugmug. I don't really know zenfolio and it seems to be gaining some attention and users. I was wondering if anyone else (in the dgrin community or at Smugmug) corporate has any pithy set of reasons why Smugmug is better than zenfolio? I'm not trying to challenge Smugmug, just looking for ammo on how to explain why Smugmug is better.
Anyone have anything on Zenfolio vs. Smugmug?
One thing I noticed while browsing a few galleries on their site is that it feels really, really fast when browsing. As best I can tell, they must be prefetching images that you are likely to go to. Costs them bandwidth (if you don't go to that image), but it seems to be pretty effective in enhancing browsing speed.
.. so .. If I can't straighten it all out .. never thought keeping my site up would be so complicated .. I may have to go revert back to my Zen! ()
Hi, either make a new post in SmugMug Support forum with all the details, or please write our Heroes http://www.smugmug.com/help/emailreal and allow us to get you sorted out on these things
HOWEVER .. being html, css challenged .. Smugs new slideshow still isn't working for me..hasn't been for 2 weeks now .. Allen gave me a few replies but nothing worked or I just did it wrong and never got another reply.. and now the new "square thumbs" seems to be screwing up my proof gallery featured photo even though I don't have it selected .. so .. If I can't straighten it all out .. never thought keeping my site up would be so complicated .. I may have to go revert back to my Zen! ()
Thumbs fixed, and slideshow will be updated in a few minutes
BaldyRegistered Users, Super ModeratorsPosts: 2,853moderator
edited March 18, 2008
For those who don't know me, I'm SmugMug's co-founder and we love the good feedback we read here, when it isn't just Zenfolio spam.
I planted a little Easter egg that some people noticed on their pages during the 2nd day of their trials, which was that we'd give them an Amazon gift certificate if they'd let me call them to understand specifics of their trial experience. I wanted to put flesh on the bones of what bad UI, DOS, a hack, and the other things we heard here meant. The answer came back from the 1st to the 50th call that it has mosty to do with the tools and how you find them, the control panel and what it does and where you find it. As they gave specifics, it became so very clear. In any case, you'll see us put a lot of effort into them.
In the meantime, square thumbs are live as a result of this thread and so is a new full-screen slideshow (with an unforgiveable bug we're tracking down and hoping to fix quickly).
Interestingly, we heard about Zenfolio's slideshow several times here and developed one like it long ago that made it to bug testing but didn't make it past our customers. Our customers didn't like the unsmooth transitions of Zenfolio's javascript-based show, especially with the larger image sizes SmugMug can display. They pointed us towards Flickr's Flash slideshow and especially Phanfare's, which they considered to be the gold standard.
They also didn't like the lack of thumbs on Zenfolio's ss and the limited image sizes.
The bottom line is we have a lot of respect for Zenfolio but we have a lot of great competitors and if you don't see us responding exactly to the feedback you read in this thread, it's probably because another competitor is putting heat on us.
Zenfolio benefits:
- More modern look and feel. I would love to see Smugmug become a little more 'polished' in the future.
- The Zenfolio management interface which is clean, easy to understand and provides a great management overview.
- Zenfolio shows the most recently added albums on the homepage (Would be great if Smugmug introduced a similar feature)
- the concept of 'collections', a sort of virtual folders, You can store photo's easily in multiple locations.
- Speed: They do some sort of pre-caching or something. It is really impressive how fast you can browse photo's (eg. by pressing next and previous buttons). Give it a little time to pre-cache the page, after a few seconds browsing photo's is almost instant. Really super fast!
- Ability to delete a whole group (equivalent to a Smugmug Category) at once. This is a personal frustration because in Smugmug deleted categories are moved to the 'other' category and then have to be manually deleted from there one-by-one)
- nice way of batch adding keywords (select multiple photo's using the traditional SHIFT and CTRL keys and then click 'edit' to bulk add captions, keywords, categories etc.)
- Access rights per album or even per photo.
Smugmug benefits:
- customization (CSS, Javascript) - this is a BIG plus but it could be easier than it currently is imo
- much bigger 'ecosystem' of 3rd party developers and tools (eg. Send to smugmug, Picase plugin, Star*Explorer, Dgrin forum etc.)
- Video's!!! (the option to store your camera's videos in the same album as your photo's
- Ability to add comments
- Geotagging
- ability to order a DVD backup of your photo collection
- timeline view and browing by keyword (combining keywords etc. which is cool)
- Support
Comments
For those that want to mix it up, we offer an astounding array of customization options. Honestly though, I think your Zenfolio account looks fairly "generic" too, though I do love the photos.
Out of curiosity, what is your desktop resolution? Or more importantly, what is your web browser viewport size? The only time I ever scroll in SmugMug galleries is to read comments. At 1280 x 1024 resolution, I can easily get 12 thumbnails, the full main image and no scrollbar anywhere.
If I make my browser window smaller, SmugMug automatically recognizes that at a certain point it should display fewer thumbnails and a smaller main image to reduce the amount of scrolling required.
I didn't spend much time on it, but I chose a random gallery of yours on Zenfolio and a random gallery of mine on SmugMug, opened side by side browser windows and made them quite small. SmugMug managed to automatically fit the header, breadcrumb, buttons, 9 entire thumbnails, the main image, and all the page navigation. Zenfolio managed to get the header, breadcrumb, 5 thumbs and 5 partial thumbs, the main image, and part of the page navigation.
I know I'm biased, but I honestly prefer the SmugMug page layout in that case. There is no scrollbar along the bottom because the whole thing fits. I have everything I need without scrolling. Scrolling down just gets me the footer and comments.
Ouch. The SmugMug viewing style is less than a year old. That's right, it was completely rewritten and redone in January of this year (http://blogs.smugmug.com/don/2007/01/22/hello-speed-beauty-brains-goodbye-alexa/). JT and our other SmugSorcerers did some amazing and fantastic things with it. And it will only get better from here.
When I click through from your Zenfolio homepage to your galleries, all of the navigation begins from the top and left, then suddenly shifts to the right side once I actually get inside a gallery. It's a bit annoying, but I can understand the need for it if the main image would normally have been partly off the screen.
Fact is, though, SmugMug galleries display the entire main photo and at least 9 thumbnails unless your viewport width is less than 700 pixels. I don't know anyone with a viewport that small.
I think as long as you dont write a couple lines of album caption, have a lot of comments, etc then the SM layout will more or less fit pretty good within the browser without too much scrolling.
However, here is what it looks like with more content (MacBook 1280x800 resolution w Safari).
Notice I even have the bookmarks bar & status bar turned off in safari to give the page more viewing room.
Here is mine.
Notice how everything is lined up perfectly with the space filled up on the sides & with hardly a bit of room left for vertical scrolling.
Smugmug homepage
Zenfolio homepage
I didnt know they reworked it. Was it rebuilt from the ground up?? Its not bad, far from it, so I didnt mean to give that impression. Its just flawed when different elements are thrown into the mix, like I showed above.
I was mostly talking about SM taking up the entire browser window & how the thumbs/main photo should switch sides with each other, since people's cursors are more likely to going from the browsers vertical scrollbar to the thumbs, its a longer trip for them. Not to mention triggering the pop up info each time the cursor grazes the main photo, which is almost unavoidable.
I guess our browsing styles are just vastly different. I almost never scroll down when browsing galleries on SmugMug. And even when I do scroll down, I do it with my mousewheel.
I could put it on the top or the side & it would still fit. The album description really doesnt need to be above every single photo you look at in the main viewing area.
That page of yours was using a custom theme, correct?? Most themes I see on SM all do that in the main classic photo view once you put a description & comments are left. Actually, my page was using a theme as well. Although, you are correct in saying it looks generic, I actually picked the most generic looking one.
Anyways, nomatter what theme I use in Zenfolio, its always ALWAYS lined up the exact same & doesnt make you scroll anymore than the default theme. See:
Im the same as you. I dont use the the browser's scrollbar either. I usually use my mousewheel or just use 2 finger scrolling when on my Macbook. But not everyone is like us. Some people like using that dang scrollbar for some reason.
Am I right in thinking that Zenfolio automatically adjusts the photo to the size of the screen it is being displayed on?
That is pretty cool. Will that be available on smugmug soon?
http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=77680
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Im hoping that Im going to get some cash this xmas so can finally sign up!
Seattle Photography - Nature|Portrait|Event
'The negative is comparable to the composer’s score and the print to its performance.' - Ansel Adams
My needs are rather simple compared to the pros here since I mostly just use SmugMug for personal photos for family & friends. I've been a SmugMug user since March 2004 and have been extremely happy here, but something Zenfolio's offering for my current $40/year price level is the ability to use my own domain name for my photo gallery. That would be a really nice feature to have. I realize that's something SmugMug uses to help differentiate their pro-level accounts from others, but is considering offering the same feature for basic subscribers?
I have been a smugmug user since 2004, and was very happy to see it introduce all these themes a while back. However I do think zenfolio's layout is simpler and cleaner -- especially those square thumbnails (I know you can achieve the same effect through zoom thumbnail and there's also the BZT thing..but why can't smugmug produce those square thumbnails automatically? even flickr generate those for sets). Also being able to apply different layout without writing some CSS codes is very nice. I am very happy with smugmg yet the layout at zenfolio looks very tempting.
This thread is quite interesting. I am a Phanfare user that is seeking a new location to store/share my photos (due to Phanfare's recent brainfart). I am not a professional photographer. I am a pro-sumer photographer with thousands of photos to keep. I tried Smugmug before choosing Phanfare. I chose Phanfare for ease of use, clean albums, and nice slideshows.
I've been trying both Smugmug and Zenfolio lately. As far as user interface, here's my comparison:
SmugMug is like using DOS. Zenfolio is like using Windows.
When you boil it down, SmugMug is just too dang complicated (and I'm not talking about customization / CSS / JS / etc). I'm talking about basic setup... there's just too many dang clicks to get stuff done............
I appreciate being able to customize and realize that is a dealbreaker for many (especially pros). However, at this point, I'll choose ease of use (for me and the viewer).
I have mentioned (in 2 different emails to SmugMug support) that templates would be very helpful. Each time I got a response saying... "Go look at DGRIN and ask some questions..." The truth is, I don't want to spend hours upon hours sifting through message boards...... I want to take and share photos! It seems that SmugMug doesn't really agree that their user interface is complicated..............
It feels like I've made more mouse clicks trying to setup stuff in SmugMug than all the mouse clicks I ever made working with Phanfare...
Joseph
www.fambrojoe.com
I'm with the poster above 100%...DOS vs. Windows. I have been messing with the Smugmug Free Trial for a Pro account for several days now, and have essentially given up.
I wanted easy access to what my customer would see, and just never felt like I knew exactly where I was. I could figure it out...but my customers have to as well. I haven't put several hours into it...but should I have to? After all, we're talking about a photo gallery that allows people access with a password and to buy prints.
I am a computer professional, and do not believe I should have to pay $150 per year and then decipher a bunch of instructions, copy and paste a bunch of HTML...essentially paying for a learning curve I don't want.
I would assume that most of us pro's want a few things most of all:
1. A clean black gallery (to best contrast color, anyone who uses a brightly colored gallery is undermining the presentation of their own images.), and the host company name at the bottom only, with our own banner and URL.
2. Ease of access to personal galleries for customers, so I can be assured my customers will feel comfortable browsing and buying, with no worries of, "Where do I / How do I do this or that" which is DEADLY. I never even got that far.
I found Smugmug's gallery/category creation somewhat cumbersome. I hear they have very good support, and I would say they HAVE to, as without it people would quickly become frustrated.
All this being said...their management seems committed to satisfaction, and I have no doubt their product will continually improve. I know nothing about Zenfolio, other than at first glance it looked much more like a modern Windows interface, which is what people know and can navigate quickly.
For the time being I will present prints to my customers the old fashioned way, but eventually will go this route. I have no idea who I will use, but if I have to spend $150 every year...my site will look the way I want it to with little effort.
Maybe you guys should just clone Andy's site, make a few deviated versions...and have them available for pro's. I believe his site is essentially the basic style most are looking for.
Holler to me directly, ATTN: Andy at our Help Desk if I can be of assistance in getting you started out.
Thanks!
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www.intruecolors.com
Nikon D700 x2/D300
Nikon 70-200 2.8/50 1.8/85 1.8/14.24 2.8
I tried Z three times out of frustration with SM. Honestly, when someone asks about photo hosts, I recommend Z and only mention SM hoping they'll use the 5$ referral.
What keeps me here is the html pages. I can put my text pages on SM and will get rid of my webhost when my plan expires. Another thing is being able to customize almost every single aspect and keeping the same three boring colors I had on my 6 year old website. But at the peek of frustration, I was ready to let that go for Z's simplicity. I found a few cool things at SM, like making a binlingual site, but other things are sooooooooo complicated. The interface is awful. Email support is ok. I got the "read the forum" answer a couple of times. For the price I pay, it feels a bit amateurish sometimes. There's no good working "recent photos". It's such a basic feature, it should have been there since SM's creation. The list is long.
I think SM should work on the interface and perhaps offer domain name to Power Users or it will lose its edge to Z.
borealphoto.smugmug.com
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I do agree that it's easier to get things done on Zenfolio, however so far it's been at a more limited scale. We'll see who wins my Ben Franklin.
- Photo comments. Z doesn't have them.
- Customization. SM isn't EASY to customize, but with all the help on here, it doesn't require a Ph.D. in computers to do whatever you want. Z is "easy" but only has limited options.
- Ability to use the site to add HTML only pages and even use paypal and google checkout to sell non-photo products! (without a commission)
- Customer service is not even close. SM wins against anyone hands down.
- Z has better "virtual" galleries. One photo in many places. But, since SM has unlimited storage, and there's a bulk-copy program, it's not really a deal breaker. I just post the photos twice.
- Z has Mpix; but, you can always self-fulfill with SM and use Mpix. Only benefit to Mpix is metalic and true B&W. Fuji Crystal Archive is better than the Kodak paper. Last a LOT longer too (I use it as a selling point).
- WAY more third-party progams and support for SM. Want to integrate your wordpress blog with SM? No problems. In Z? uh, well, you'll have to wait on that one.
Bottom line.. SM gets my money. I recommend it to EVERYONE I know. I've even blogged about it, and "reviewed" it on my other website. (Let's just say, I was quite pleased with SM.)BUT, SM has places that Z beats them. Coupons are SORELY needed. Square thumbnails by default (BZT should be part of the core code, and an option added to the gallery config screen in SM). Also, SM needs a general face-lift. More ajax, more drag-and-drop, easier management of galleries and photos.
Overall, SM is responsive to customers, easy to customize, and has great support. Yes, they may be more expensive, but, for me, it's worth every penny!
David
Twitter: @WolfSnap
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WolfSnapDesigns
SmugMug & Wordpress Customization - WolfSnap.com | Custom Domains
I can tell you right now that I've personally NEVER waited over an hour (most times much sooner) to receive a personal reply via email. Dare I say that its consistently faster than Smugmug was. *Gasp* And they have a moderated forum now too if you wanna go that route. Not saying SM doesnt have great CS, but Zen is no slouch either. They're equal in the CS department if you ask me.
And comments are coming in the next update. To be fair, Zenfolio hasnt been online nearly as long as Smugmug has. Just saying, you have to consider everything. It's not a features race.
Oh, Z doesn't do backprinting either. BUT, they have "Guest accounts" which I think is sorely needed in SM. Basically a way to create a viewing account that I can assign security permissions to. It's an idea I've talked about before--and one that I especially like.
David
Twitter: @WolfSnap
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WolfSnapDesigns
SmugMug & Wordpress Customization - WolfSnap.com | Custom Domains
Hey, I just wanted to say thanks to everyone. I settled on SM mostly due to the fanatical (crazy, compulsive, way over the top kind of support
It came down to this. After several days with Z, I'd done all I could do. After a week with SM I'd done all I needed to do and more. I don't even need a separate website anymore.
Lastly.. Implementing those square thumbs shows you guys really pay attention and are on top of improvement. This was driving me nuts in galleries using mixed portrait and landscape photos.
I opened it when Photosite shut down as a quick alternative until I purchased and created my accout with Smugmug, and I like it was easy to use .. but honestly haven't even logged into it since I completed my smugmug site about 5 months ago .. HOWEVER .. being html, css challenged .. Smugs new slideshow still isn't working for me..hasn't been for 2 weeks now .. Allen gave me a few replies but nothing worked or I just did it wrong and never got another reply.. and now the new "square thumbs" seems to be screwing up my proof gallery featured photo even though I don't have it selected .. so .. If I can't straighten it all out .. never thought keeping my site up would be so complicated .. I may have to go revert back to my Zen! (
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Some members of my local photography club have asked me about this topic knowing I have a SM site.
I tell them it is a simple choice for me.
Noone has the crazy level of customer service that SM offers. NOONE!
My Vancouver Island Photography Website http://bradpowellphoto.com
My Facebook Page http://www.facebook.com/bradpowellphoto
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Zen has been faster for me, although SM is fast enough. Personnally, I recommend Zen because there's no need for support since it actually works.
borealphoto.smugmug.com
I planted a little Easter egg that some people noticed on their pages during the 2nd day of their trials, which was that we'd give them an Amazon gift certificate if they'd let me call them to understand specifics of their trial experience. I wanted to put flesh on the bones of what bad UI, DOS, a hack, and the other things we heard here meant. The answer came back from the 1st to the 50th call that it has mosty to do with the tools and how you find them, the control panel and what it does and where you find it. As they gave specifics, it became so very clear. In any case, you'll see us put a lot of effort into them.
In the meantime, square thumbs are live as a result of this thread and so is a new full-screen slideshow (with an unforgiveable bug we're tracking down and hoping to fix quickly).
Interestingly, we heard about Zenfolio's slideshow several times here and developed one like it long ago that made it to bug testing but didn't make it past our customers. Our customers didn't like the unsmooth transitions of Zenfolio's javascript-based show, especially with the larger image sizes SmugMug can display. They pointed us towards Flickr's Flash slideshow and especially Phanfare's, which they considered to be the gold standard.
They also didn't like the lack of thumbs on Zenfolio's ss and the limited image sizes.
The bottom line is we have a lot of respect for Zenfolio but we have a lot of great competitors and if you don't see us responding exactly to the feedback you read in this thread, it's probably because another competitor is putting heat on us.
All the best,
Chris
Zenfolio benefits:
- More modern look and feel. I would love to see Smugmug become a little more 'polished' in the future.
- The Zenfolio management interface which is clean, easy to understand and provides a great management overview.
- Zenfolio shows the most recently added albums on the homepage (Would be great if Smugmug introduced a similar feature)
- the concept of 'collections', a sort of virtual folders, You can store photo's easily in multiple locations.
- Speed: They do some sort of pre-caching or something. It is really impressive how fast you can browse photo's (eg. by pressing next and previous buttons). Give it a little time to pre-cache the page, after a few seconds browsing photo's is almost instant. Really super fast!
- Ability to delete a whole group (equivalent to a Smugmug Category) at once. This is a personal frustration because in Smugmug deleted categories are moved to the 'other' category and then have to be manually deleted from there one-by-one)
- nice way of batch adding keywords (select multiple photo's using the traditional SHIFT and CTRL keys and then click 'edit' to bulk add captions, keywords, categories etc.)
- Access rights per album or even per photo.
Smugmug benefits:
- customization (CSS, Javascript) - this is a BIG plus but it could be easier than it currently is imo
- much bigger 'ecosystem' of 3rd party developers and tools (eg. Send to smugmug, Picase plugin, Star*Explorer, Dgrin forum etc.)
- Video's!!! (the option to store your camera's videos in the same album as your photo's
- Ability to add comments
- Geotagging
- ability to order a DVD backup of your photo collection
- timeline view and browing by keyword (combining keywords etc. which is cool)
- Support