I would bet any money that you lot are all PM'ing each other ...
PF : "whooah waxy...let him get to the end & close to a decision & i'll launch the Coolpix 8800 at him when he's looking away"
They are here on Ebay for $1K PF.The 8 MP bit...i was always under the impression that the glass was more important ?
I assume that having 3 more MP than i currently have...i could crop my macro's more ?
.
I just thought that this was a way of temporizing without committing to a lens sysyem yet. The 8800 should be very good at macros, it IS a 10X 35-350mm zoom. Vibration reduction. Not too shabby, and compact and no dust on your sensor. The lens is made by nikon and gets good marks.
I'm not really trying to muddy the waters - just offering alternatives
You have recieved some really solid info mate. I would like to renterate one point, look at the systems again. I think you would be happy with ether the Nikon or the Canon, but once you choose the brand, you will be tied to that brand with glass and other assesories, and yes you will buy more glass faster than you think! My co-worker just bought a D70. One of his reasons for the D70 over the 20D was price. His initial photos look great. Now just a week or two after getting it he is looking at a $1300 lens. lol
Once you jump into the DSLR pond your gona find out how really deep it is!
Now for a new curve ball! This year or next I will be stepping up to a 20D. It's not first on my list, but if you think you may have an interest in the Canon brand, I would entertain talking to you about my flawless Rebel at a very fair price. No I am not putting it on E-Bay or am I in any rush to sell it. Actually my first thought was to keep it as a back up. But hey I can think about it.
Yeah ..assuming canon is still in front with 'bang for buck' in that part of the curve.
There are historic reasons why Canon has an advantage. A couple of decades back, Canon pissed off their entire customer bas by making a major incompatible change in their mounts from 'FD' to 'EF'. At the same time Nikon swore to never do that to their customers and gained a lot of loyalty. As time went by Canon's non-optical lens technology, image stabilization and way faster auto-focus started chewing into Nikon. As time has gone by, Canon's choice has shown more and more long term benefit to the point where Nikon which used to dominate events like the Olympics are virtually invisible. Both companies have oustanding optics and I will agree that the D70 is a better camera than the DRebel/D300. I'll even state that I strongly was unhappy with the D300 when I borrowed it for a day. But you are buying a system and from your photos I think Canon is my clear recommendation. I might recommend a used D10 instead of the Rebel.
EVEN THOUGH THE D70 IS A BETTER CAMERA I THINK THE D300 IS THE PROPER CHOICE BETWEEN THE TWO.
You have recieved some really solid info mate. I would like to renterate one point, look at the systems again. I think you would be happy with ether the Nikon or the Canon, but once you choose the brand, you will be tied to that brand with glass and other assesories, and yes you will buy more glass faster than you think! My co-worker just bought a D70. One of his reasons for the D70 over the 20D was price. His initial photos look great. Now just a week or two after getting it he is looking at a $1300 lens. lol
Once you jump into the DSLR pond your gona find out how really deep it is!
Now for a new curve ball! This year or next I will be stepping up to a 20D. It's not first on my list, but if you think you may have an interest in the Canon brand, I would entertain talking to you about my flawless Rebel at a very fair price. No I am not putting it on E-Bay or am I in any rush to sell it. Actually my first thought was to keep it as a back up. But hey I can think about it.
Sam
Thanks for the kind offer sam however i am really going to buy a new camera. Its going to be soon but i just dont know which way to go. Those pro-sumers with the 10x lens are a powerfull calling....
Thanks heaps for everyones input...I am off to read about the 300 greaps (any ideas why this 3/4 system was developed?). I really want to have some good glass but cant help looking at the 10x 8800 of nikons that PF mentioned. I dont head out to shoot something in particular but whatever i stumble across. It would just be so handy & cost effective not to worry about glass & just hit a button to go from macro to 10x...i just dont know if the quality will still be there for me in 12 months & then i have to go through the whole thing of sleeping in the spare room again.
I am just going to have to get hold of one of these 8800's & try it for my self.From what ive seen it has some really amazing colour ability.
Greap how common are these Zuiko brand lens's ? I have looked at them on the net but it never gives a feel for whats actually avail in real life.
Thats an impressive little camera just looking at its specs !
Olympus has been in business since before WWII I think 'gus. It is a well respected company. When I was a student and could not begin to dream about owning a Nikon Nikkormat I aquired an OM-1 and several Zuiko lenses for it. I still own an f1.2 50mm - nice lens. I used it for years, until Olympus abandoned it. Otherwise I still might be using it.
Olympus knows how to make good optical products, but they never have quite achieved the respect of the pros like Nikon and Cannon. They always seem to have just a little quirkiness - Their 1/2 frame Pen F SLR was loved by a lot of people. Most OM-1s were probably bought by advanced amatuers and some pros, who paid for their own equipment, I suspect.
Olympus announced the 4/3s system in conjunction with Kodak and another Japanese firm. Sigma has said it will build 4/3 series lenses. But the idea has not really caught on in the market place. I can't think of anyone on dgrin who posts images with the Olympus 4/3s system cameras. I have colleagues who used the Olympus e-10 and e-20 non-interchangeable SLRs( NO EVF - Optical viewers) and they make excellent images.
The 4/3s sensor is square and slightly smaller than an APS sized sensor if my memory serves. And since pixel density size is ultimately a function of sensor size it is hard to see how they will compete in the market place with Canon and Nikon unless they are significantly cheaper, and right now they are not. Olympus also makes microscopes and other medical otical imaging equipment and will be in business whether they succeed in the digital SLR business or not. It is not their mainline business.
Another consideration is that their cameras will probably depreciate faster than more popular cameras in the market place. Images on Olympus website from the 4/3s system cameras are very impressive though.
Adorama comes up with 45 items when searching for Zuiko lens
I have looked around a bit and have real trouble finding glass for this body. Tamron and sigma dont seem to make an olympus mount for their lenses. I think glass selection should rule this body out for you. It would for me.
I hope that it at least gets the other manufacturers to look for a anti dust technology.
I would say Canon, Nikon, and Minolta are the main ones I would look at for a DSLR
The comments about Canon dominating the market may be true in sports photography but I dont know if it's true across the board. I dont know any sports shooters but I know a few pro nature photographers and they alll (the ones I know) shoot with Nikons.
All that really needs to be said is that I think you will be happy with either brand. Know one has mentioned it yet, but one of the big concerns is how it FEELS to you. Does the body fit comfotable in your hand. Are the controls in places that are comfortable for you to use. Does it feel good when you hold it.
I shot Nikon film bodies before I swithed to digital. When I picked up my D100 it felt right. The size was right, the weight felt good, the controls were VERY similar to the bodies I was use to. I was sold the minute I picked it up and was getting decent results the day i brought it home.
Adorama comes up with 45 items when searching for Zuiko lens
I have looked around a bit and have real trouble finding glass for this body. Tamron and sigma dont seem to make an olympus mount for their lenses. I think glass selection should rule this body out for you. It would for me.
I hope that it at least gets the other manufacturers to look for a anti dust technology.
I would say Canon, Nikon, and Minolta are the main ones I would look at for a DSLR
The comments about Canon dominating the market may be true in sports photography but I dont know if it's true across the board. I dont know any sports shooters but I know a few pro nature photographers and they alll (the ones I know) shoot with Nikons.
All that really needs to be said is that I think you will be happy with either brand. Know one has mentioned it yet, but one of the big concerns is how it FEELS to you. Does the body fit comfotable in your hand. Are the controls in places that are comfortable for you to use. Does it feel good when you hold it.
I shot Nikon film bodies before I swithed to digital. When I picked up my D100 it felt right. The size was right, the weight felt good, the controls were VERY similar to the bodies I was use to. I was sold the minute I picked it up and was getting decent results the day i brought it home.
I have noticed that the nature style photographers here mostly use nikons also.
I am really going to have trouble with switching lens's & getting crap in there. Im not known for gentle hands thats for sure. The nikon 8800 absolutely suits me perfectly with its versitility & colour from what ive seen ...just worried that i will grow out of it too fast & want a DSLR (read...*lust for higher quality glass*) & as waxy keeps pointing out rightly so..."thats a whole new teapot of eels" re fun v's money.
Sorry if im sounding confused here...should just go & buy the flamin' thing & be done with it !!
I just checked out the specs on the 8800 and it looks like a fine camera to me. I was thinking about getting a camera like that for a general walk around camera when I didn't feel like carrying my ussual 40 pounds of junk.
You gotta go with yer gut. I find when I have the money to get somethin like this I have to do enough research to decide what feels like the right thing, then I just do it.
I have noticed that the nature style photographers here mostly use nikons also.
I am really going to have trouble with switching lens's & getting crap in there. Im not known for gentle hands thats for sure. The nikon 8800 absolutely suits me perfectly with its versitility & colour from what ive seen ...just worried that i will grow out of it too fast & want a DSLR (read...*lust for higher quality glass*) & as waxy keeps pointing out rightly so..."thats a whole new teapot of eels" re fun v's money.
Sorry if im sounding confused here...should just go & buy the flamin' thing & be done with it !!
someone should correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the 8800 still not a dSLR? Speaking as someone whose last camera was a Nikon 5700 and managed to shoot with it commercially, I can't even shoot with it recreationally now, just drives me crazy compared to the dSLR features I've gotten used to with the 10D. Main objections
shutter lag time
The 10D shutter engages when I depress it, not a second later
Storage rate to the card
Low light performance
low frame rate in sports or multiple shot mode, the need to anticipate action and shoot before it "happened"
slow zoom compared to the lenses I use on the 10D
Tiny dynamic range, easy to blow out the highlights.
My Nikon takes lovely macros and landscapes, the optics are fine. If that's most of what you shoot, you might be satisfied with the improved model.
I started out in Olympus-land, film first then '99 on their digitals including the 520D, 2100 UZ (a killer 10x 2.1) and the then-pocket-sized 700UZ.
Lynne
also addicted to L glass
with the factory refurbed 5700 prolly for sale
'scuse me but
ya'll had no trouble getting me to spend about $8000 on a new computer system and 30" display. and i seem to remember you in there, 'gus, fanning the flames and cheering the boyz and girlz on
'gus - get a dslr! canon or nikon, but get one. food for thought: you like to shoot "dark" subject matter and i imagine that a fair amt of this would be in non-well lit situations... and canon kick's nikon's booty at the higher isos, 800, 1600, and 3200. but, stay away from the rebel, go for a used 10d or get me or someone stateside to buy you a 20d and ship it to oz. (i think you left it here on your last visit, that's what i would say...)
I didn't see the multiplier. It's kinda decieving calling it a full frame sensor isnt it.
I would also wait on Olympus stuff until I saw noise evaluations. The E-1 was horrible in that respect, particularly given its price, and likewise there are a lot of very noisy 8MP sensors. I'd be skeptical until I saw otherwise.
I wandered over to dpreview to see if they had noise shots up yet but they don't.
I agree with Andy and Lynnesite. If you're gonna buy a new camera, might as well make the jump to dSLR. 'goosetavus, I think you'll fall in love with the low light performance and shutter response. Great points. But have your eye$ wide open.
Like there is a light at the end of the tunnel mate ???????
'Gus, let me tell you that the light at the end of the tunnel of long glass...is
bright and equally expensive
Regarding the D70 vs. Rebel. Either body is a fine camera. What matters is
the glass. Take a look at what you think you might want to buy (lens and
other kit), measure the cost, quality, etc.. So far, camera bodies are a dime
a dozen--well, they change so frequently they might as well be. But the
lenses, that's the thing you'll have longest.
Something else to consider is the ergonomics of the camera. Do you find the
buttons in the right place? Does it fit your hand? Is it too heavy?
There are a lot of people making great pictures with the rebel. Same with
the D70. Good luck with your search!
ian
Moderator Journeys/Sports/Big Picture :: Need some help with dgrin?
You will buy a new camera, but it won't be a dSLR. You'll shoot some fantastic photos with it for about 60 days, and be ready to buy a dSLR again.
Don't waste your money. Just get a dSLR and start whining about glass, not chip-holders.
Struth, mate...and you know it.
"Consulting the rules of composition before taking a photograph, is like consulting the laws of gravity before going for a walk." - Edward Weston "The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over."-Hunter S.Thompson
'Gus, let me tell you that the light at the end of the tunnel of long glass...is
bright and equally expensive
Regarding the D70 vs. Rebel. Either body is a fine camera. What matters is
the glass. Take a look at what you think you might want to buy (lens and
other kit), measure the cost, quality, etc.. So far, camera bodies are a dime
a dozen--well, they change so frequently they might as well be. But the
lenses, that's the thing you'll have longest.
Something else to consider is the ergonomics of the camera. Do you find the
buttons in the right place? Does it fit your hand? Is it too heavy?
There are a lot of people making great pictures with the rebel. Same with
the D70. Good luck with your search!
ian
Thanks ian...im doing some serious math as we speak (both shoes are off)
Mate i was shooting the bikes today & i am sorry to report that 'stage two' of 'Wanting better camera gear 101' kicked in.
There seems to be an equal amount of nikon & canon glass about. There is a 'Trading Post' type local magazine where a lot of pro's peddle their stuff so i will buy it & look at a good 2nd hand body as andy suggested.
There is a 'Trading Post' type local magazine where a lot of pro's peddle their stuff so i will buy it & look at a good 2nd hand body as andy suggested.
This is an excellent idea. If you do that, why not just skip straight to the
10d/d70 or wait a bit and see if you find something better. Meanwhile,
take your bad self to a camera store and get an idea of how it fits and
what you want.
ian
Moderator Journeys/Sports/Big Picture :: Need some help with dgrin?
nobody was advising me to go get a 2nd hand apple or display
There is a very good market for used G4s. But I am not aware of a big market in used G5s yet - where would the owner of a Dual G5 go to move up? Maybe a SUN Unix workstation.... But that is a big step up I bet
There is a very good market for used G4s. But I am not aware of a big market in used G5s yet - where would the owner of a Dual G5 go to move up? Maybe a SUN Unix workstation.... But that is a big step up I bet
Oh no. That would be a HUGE step backward (sorry fish).
Ian
Moderator Journeys/Sports/Big Picture :: Need some help with dgrin?
Comments
I just thought that this was a way of temporizing without committing to a lens sysyem yet. The 8800 should be very good at macros, it IS a 10X 35-350mm zoom. Vibration reduction. Not too shabby, and compact and no dust on your sensor. The lens is made by nikon and gets good marks.
I'm not really trying to muddy the waters - just offering alternatives
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
You have recieved some really solid info mate. I would like to renterate one point, look at the systems again. I think you would be happy with ether the Nikon or the Canon, but once you choose the brand, you will be tied to that brand with glass and other assesories, and yes you will buy more glass faster than you think! My co-worker just bought a D70. One of his reasons for the D70 over the 20D was price. His initial photos look great. Now just a week or two after getting it he is looking at a $1300 lens. lol
Once you jump into the DSLR pond your gona find out how really deep it is!
Now for a new curve ball! This year or next I will be stepping up to a 20D. It's not first on my list, but if you think you may have an interest in the Canon brand, I would entertain talking to you about my flawless Rebel at a very fair price. No I am not putting it on E-Bay or am I in any rush to sell it. Actually my first thought was to keep it as a back up. But hey I can think about it.
Sam
loads of konica minolta glass available
this is fun, innit?
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How about a DSLR that keeps its own sensor clean. Full frame 8MP
And its the Ruler Of The Wastelands Brand.
Here
yeah, but now you're talking about limited lens selection, and, a 2x crop factor.
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You are definatly right about glass selection. Non existant at B n H
I do wish my Nikon would clean itself
EVEN THOUGH THE D70 IS A BETTER CAMERA I THINK THE D300 IS THE PROPER CHOICE BETWEEN THE TWO.
Ask jimf why he calls me a crack dealer
Operating System Design, Drivers, Software
Villa Del Rio II, Talamban, Pit-os, Cebu, Ph
Yours
confused.
I am just going to have to get hold of one of these 8800's & try it for my self.From what ive seen it has some really amazing colour ability.
Thanks again for every response..
Thats an impressive little camera just looking at its specs !
Olympus has been in business since before WWII I think 'gus. It is a well respected company. When I was a student and could not begin to dream about owning a Nikon Nikkormat I aquired an OM-1 and several Zuiko lenses for it. I still own an f1.2 50mm - nice lens. I used it for years, until Olympus abandoned it. Otherwise I still might be using it.
Olympus knows how to make good optical products, but they never have quite achieved the respect of the pros like Nikon and Cannon. They always seem to have just a little quirkiness - Their 1/2 frame Pen F SLR was loved by a lot of people. Most OM-1s were probably bought by advanced amatuers and some pros, who paid for their own equipment, I suspect.
Olympus announced the 4/3s system in conjunction with Kodak and another Japanese firm. Sigma has said it will build 4/3 series lenses. But the idea has not really caught on in the market place. I can't think of anyone on dgrin who posts images with the Olympus 4/3s system cameras. I have colleagues who used the Olympus e-10 and e-20 non-interchangeable SLRs( NO EVF - Optical viewers) and they make excellent images.
The 4/3s sensor is square and slightly smaller than an APS sized sensor if my memory serves. And since pixel density size is ultimately a function of sensor size it is hard to see how they will compete in the market place with Canon and Nikon unless they are significantly cheaper, and right now they are not. Olympus also makes microscopes and other medical otical imaging equipment and will be in business whether they succeed in the digital SLR business or not. It is not their mainline business.
Another consideration is that their cameras will probably depreciate faster than more popular cameras in the market place. Images on Olympus website from the 4/3s system cameras are very impressive though.
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
I have looked around a bit and have real trouble finding glass for this body. Tamron and sigma dont seem to make an olympus mount for their lenses. I think glass selection should rule this body out for you. It would for me.
I hope that it at least gets the other manufacturers to look for a anti dust technology.
I would say Canon, Nikon, and Minolta are the main ones I would look at for a DSLR
The comments about Canon dominating the market may be true in sports photography but I dont know if it's true across the board. I dont know any sports shooters but I know a few pro nature photographers and they alll (the ones I know) shoot with Nikons.
All that really needs to be said is that I think you will be happy with either brand. Know one has mentioned it yet, but one of the big concerns is how it FEELS to you. Does the body fit comfotable in your hand. Are the controls in places that are comfortable for you to use. Does it feel good when you hold it.
I shot Nikon film bodies before I swithed to digital. When I picked up my D100 it felt right. The size was right, the weight felt good, the controls were VERY similar to the bodies I was use to. I was sold the minute I picked it up and was getting decent results the day i brought it home.
I am really going to have trouble with switching lens's & getting crap in there. Im not known for gentle hands thats for sure. The nikon 8800 absolutely suits me perfectly with its versitility & colour from what ive seen ...just worried that i will grow out of it too fast & want a DSLR (read...*lust for higher quality glass*) & as waxy keeps pointing out rightly so..."thats a whole new teapot of eels" re fun v's money.
Sorry if im sounding confused here...should just go & buy the flamin' thing & be done with it !!
You gotta go with yer gut. I find when I have the money to get somethin like this I have to do enough research to decide what feels like the right thing, then I just do it.
someone should correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the 8800 still not a dSLR? Speaking as someone whose last camera was a Nikon 5700 and managed to shoot with it commercially, I can't even shoot with it recreationally now, just drives me crazy compared to the dSLR features I've gotten used to with the 10D. Main objections
shutter lag time
The 10D shutter engages when I depress it, not a second later
Storage rate to the card
Low light performance
low frame rate in sports or multiple shot mode, the need to anticipate action and shoot before it "happened"
slow zoom compared to the lenses I use on the 10D
Tiny dynamic range, easy to blow out the highlights.
My Nikon takes lovely macros and landscapes, the optics are fine. If that's most of what you shoot, you might be satisfied with the improved model.
I started out in Olympus-land, film first then '99 on their digitals including the 520D, 2100 UZ (a killer 10x 2.1) and the then-pocket-sized 700UZ.
Lynne
also addicted to L glass
with the factory refurbed 5700 prolly for sale
Galleries here Upcoming Ranch/Horse Workshop
ya'll had no trouble getting me to spend about $8000 on a new computer system and 30" display. and i seem to remember you in there, 'gus, fanning the flames and cheering the boyz and girlz on
'gus - get a dslr! canon or nikon, but get one. food for thought: you like to shoot "dark" subject matter and i imagine that a fair amt of this would be in non-well lit situations... and canon kick's nikon's booty at the higher isos, 800, 1600, and 3200. but, stay away from the rebel, go for a used 10d or get me or someone stateside to buy you a 20d and ship it to oz. (i think you left it here on your last visit, that's what i would say...)
anyhow, my .02p
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I would also wait on Olympus stuff until I saw noise evaluations. The E-1 was horrible in that respect, particularly given its price, and likewise there are a lot of very noisy 8MP sensors. I'd be skeptical until I saw otherwise.
I wandered over to dpreview to see if they had noise shots up yet but they don't.
jimf@frostbytes.com
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
bright and equally expensive
Regarding the D70 vs. Rebel. Either body is a fine camera. What matters is
the glass. Take a look at what you think you might want to buy (lens and
other kit), measure the cost, quality, etc.. So far, camera bodies are a dime
a dozen--well, they change so frequently they might as well be. But the
lenses, that's the thing you'll have longest.
Something else to consider is the ergonomics of the camera. Do you find the
buttons in the right place? Does it fit your hand? Is it too heavy?
There are a lot of people making great pictures with the rebel. Same with
the D70. Good luck with your search!
ian
You will buy a new camera, but it won't be a dSLR. You'll shoot some fantastic photos with it for about 60 days, and be ready to buy a dSLR again.
Don't waste your money. Just get a dSLR and start whining about glass, not chip-holders.
Struth, mate...and you know it.
"The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over."-Hunter S.Thompson
Mate i was shooting the bikes today & i am sorry to report that 'stage two' of 'Wanting better camera gear 101' kicked in.
There seems to be an equal amount of nikon & canon glass about. There is a 'Trading Post' type local magazine where a lot of pro's peddle their stuff so i will buy it & look at a good 2nd hand body as andy suggested.
10d/d70 or wait a bit and see if you find something better. Meanwhile,
take your bad self to a camera store and get an idea of how it fits and
what you want.
ian
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
nobody was advising me to go get a 2nd hand apple or display
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There is a very good market for used G4s. But I am not aware of a big market in used G5s yet - where would the owner of a Dual G5 go to move up? Maybe a SUN Unix workstation.... But that is a big step up I bet
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
Ian
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
Ian
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au