I'll even state that I strongly was unhappy with the D300 when I borrowed it for a day. But you are buying a system and from your photos I think Canon is my clear recommendation. I might recommend a used D10 instead of the Rebel.
If you're looking at a 10D, I would categorically say to get a 20D instead. In fact, if you're looking at a 300D but could swing a 20D, I would say a 20D instead. It is a markedly better camera.
I have been pretty happy with my 300D -- very nice images, all-around good performer. Stay away from full auto mode (in fact, I suggest staying away from all its high-automation modes) and you'll do fine. Charles had the most trouble with the green-box mode, I think if he'd left it in P mode he would have been much happier. He was accustomed to much higher end bodies that do a better job at full automation, whereas I come from manual-only and am happy doing a lot of the work. (I am shocked at how much I like AF though.)
EVEN THOUGH THE D70 IS A BETTER CAMERA I THINK THE D300 IS THE PROPER CHOICE BETWEEN THE TWO.
I would have bought a D70 had it been available. I like my Canon glass a lot, but I like Nikon glass too. And the D70 corrects the one glaring deficiency in the 300D, namely slow write speed. At ~5sec per RAW frame you can easily find yourself waiting, and waiting, and waiting. If you're shooting sports you must shoot JPEG.
The 10D suffers from the same write speed problem as the 300D and that makes it a poor buy IMO, although if you could pick up a used one at a 300D price it would be worth jumping on.
Speaking of the D70, the one thing that has bugged me about shots I've seen taken with it is some blooming. Look at this one:
Look at the edges of the skyscrapers in the full resolution image. I'm not sure what caused that -- could be lens, could be JPEG artifact, but I don't like it. Here's a similar high-contrast hard-edge image with the 300D:
(Unfortunately the gallery software I use really screwed the color on both of these, but comparing these against the originals I see the same detail.) The fine detail of the branches is lost, introducing some funny artifacts especially in the highest contrast horizon line, and there is some banding in the clouds, but overall it's noticably less badness.
I don't know if the issue is the D70's sensor, the lens he used (I used a 28-70 L for the first shot, 70-200 L for the second), or the conversion software (he used Nikon's tool, I used C1) but whatever -- he's got a great shot there that is spoiled to a degree by something.
Ask jimf why he calls me a crack dealer
The very worst kind. Gonna be hard to tempt me now that I have a pretty full range of lenses though. But a 20D is calling my name.
Digital NDRegistered UsersPosts: 2Beginner grinner
edited January 25, 2005
Some notes about the D70
Last summer I traded my Nikon F100 in on a D70 and, though I had a similar Tamron lens, got the bundled Nikon lens, convinced that at twice the price of my old Tamron 28-105mm it would be a great improvement. I was greatly disappointed and eventually returned it.
Firstly, I quickly encountered problems with the auto focus being... out of focus. I realize that this is not supposed to be a problem with the lens, but when I switched it out with my Tamron, this problem disappeared (as well as discovering that the Tamron was actually much faster). Perhaps it was a faulty lens, but I wasn't going to exchange it and try another one.
Secondly, the lens hood actually blocks the onboard flash (I know those flashes are pretty hokey, but still...) leaving a dark crescent on the bottom of the image when it is facing outward. If you put it on facing inward, it overlaps the telephoto ring making it difficult to zoom. In short, the lens hood is poorly designed and spent most it's time in my camera bag.
On the plus side, the macro was better than my Tamron and the 67mm glass should be pretty good. Beware that it is also one of Nikon's new G-mount lenses that don't have an aperture ring, making them lighter and cheaper... This is Nikon's new bottom end hardware and feels like it.
The D70 has been a good camera to work with and Nikon's NEF lossless compression has consistently impressed me. My old Coolpix 880 shot 3.2MP lossless at 9MB/image and the D70 shoots 6MP lossless at 9MB/i9mage.
As a side note, the compression means that at the end of your 'digital roll' you will actually get more photos than indicated at the start. It's like your 12 exp. film roll squeezing off 14 or 15.
Secondly, the lens hood actually blocks the onboard flash (I know those flashes are pretty hokey, but still...) leaving a dark crescent on the bottom of the image when it is facing outward. If you put it on facing inward, it overlaps the telephoto ring making it difficult to zoom. In short, the lens hood is poorly designed and spent most it's time in my camera bag.
Why would you use a lens hood with a flash? Seems counter intuitive
I always considered lens hoods an accessory, as in, something to be used once in a while for the right situation.
Why would you use a lens hood with a flash? Seems counter intuitive
I always considered lens hoods an accessory, as in, something to be used once in a while for the right situation.
I use hoods on all my lenses *almost* all the time. I use them as 'bump' insurance. You know for those times when you accidentally smack the end of your lens on the coffee table or the fence or whatever else is hanging out waiting to jump up and bite you. I normally use no filters (not even a 1A or UV) on my lenses so I like having that extra inch or so on the end of the lens.
Not to mention, you never know when the Evil Dr. Flare will arise.
If every keystroke was a shutter press I'd be a pro by now...
Secondly, the lens hood actually blocks the onboard flash (I know those flashes are pretty hokey, but still...) leaving a dark crescent on the bottom of the image when it is facing outward. If you put it on facing inward, it overlaps the telephoto ring making it difficult to zoom. In short, the lens hood is poorly designed and spent most it's time in my camera bag.
On the plus side, the macro was better than my Tamron and the 67mm glass should be pretty good. Beware that it is also one of Nikon's new G-mount lenses that don't have an aperture ring, making them lighter and cheaper... This is Nikon's new bottom end hardware and feels like it.
The D70 has been a good camera to work with and Nikon's NEF lossless compression has consistently impressed me. My old Coolpix 880 shot 3.2MP lossless at 9MB/image and the D70 shoots 6MP lossless at 9MB/i9mage.
I have the same issue withthe hood and the flash. So when is the right time to use a hood? I too was advised of the bump factor, and took it to heart. I have tried the hood from a Tamron and it seemed to help, but again, when do you hood and when do you not. Be kind, I'm a beginner. I love my D70, and like my other Nikons as well.
trippy64.smugmug.com
A man can do as he wills, but not will as he wills.
An opinion should be the result of thought,not the replacement of it.:scratch
I have the same issue withthe hood and the flash. So when is the right time to use a hood? I too was advised of the bump factor, and took it to heart. I have tried the hood from a Tamron and it seemed to help, but again, when do you hood and when do you not. Be kind, I'm a beginner. I love my D70, and like my other Nikons as well.
The problem is not the hood, it is the popup flashes being too close to the lens barrel. Either use a separate flash or if you must use the popup remove the hood during those sessions. (or don't use WA lenses)
Charles Richmond IT & Security Consultant
Operating System Design, Drivers, Software
Villa Del Rio II, Talamban, Pit-os, Cebu, Ph
Wow !! some heavy advice gents. I do like the nikon...it has a very fast shutter (8000) which i could use (but hey..i dont even know how the rebels 4000 speed shutter can cope as i can only do 1000 atm.) Battery life is also a big thing to me andy.
I will certainly sit & digest all your replies.
Any one wish to wade into a laymans description re cmos and ccd sensors. Which is prefered & why ? I looked it up & it quickly got over my head.
Humungus: The good news is that you are faced with a no-lose decision. I bought the D70 because I am a lifetime Nikon user with a fair bit invested in the glass. It was not, however, a no-brainer. At the end of the day either camera will serve you well. One note on battery life. My D70 can go on forever on a single battery charge. I have a spare battery but have never had to pop it in while shooting. The batter can last for several days of shooting even hundreds of frames/day.
Good luck and remember, there is no bad choice here.
I have the same issue withthe hood and the flash. So when is the right time to use a hood? I too was advised of the bump factor, and took it to heart. I have tried the hood from a Tamron and it seemed to help, but again, when do you hood and when do you not. Be kind, I'm a beginner. I love my D70, and like my other Nikons as well.
The shadow from the onboard flash is not unique to Nikon. You'll see it with the Canon 300D, or the 20D as well. Like cmr said, the onboard flash is low and close to the optical axis of the camera and hence lens hoods, particularly for wide angles, tend to create large curved shadows in the lower part of the frame.
Leaving the lens hood off is one poor solution; a better solution is a hot shoe mounted flash, or even better, a flash on an auxilliary hand like the wedding photogs use. This gets the flash up and away from the lens axis, and also makes the flash look more like normal illumination.
Lens hoods help prevent lens flare from lights in the environment.
The shadow from the onboard flash is not unique to Nikon. You'll see it with the Canon 300D, or the 20D as well.
The 20D is an improvement over the 10D, in this respect, in that the flash rises higher off the body. Still doesn't clear the 24-70/2.8L without hood, tho.
The internal flash is a wonderfully convenient fill device. It's somewhat disappointing as a primary light source tho.
"Consulting the rules of composition before taking a photograph, is like consulting the laws of gravity before going for a walk." - Edward Weston "The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over."-Hunter S.Thompson
The 20D is an improvement over the 10D, in this respect, in that the flash rises higher off the body. Still doesn't clear the 24-70/2.8L without hood, tho.
The internal flash is a wonderfully convenient fill device. It's somewhat disappointing as a primary light source tho.
None of the onboard flashes are good as a primary light scource. You are correct, Fish, that some onboard flashes are worse than others regarding shadowing. Trippy has an N60 Nikon film camera and it will do the same thing for the same reason. And yes, the 20D is a little better than the 10D, because the 20D flash stands up a little higher above the optical axis.
Humungus: The good news is that you are faced with a no-lose decision. I bought the D70 because I am a lifetime Nikon user with a fair bit invested in the glass. It was not, however, a no-brainer. At the end of the day either camera will serve you well. One note on battery life. My D70 can go on forever on a single battery charge. I have a spare battery but have never had to pop it in while shooting. The batter can last for several days of shooting even hundreds of frames/day.
Good luck and remember, there is no bad choice here.
Steve
Yep...the more i read about D70 v's 20D i see that the canon isnt the sole answer. That D70 is impressive.
Yep...the more i read about D70 v's 20D i see that the canon isnt the sole answer. That D70 is impressive.
thats just a personal view btw fish...
I've been trying out both cameras (the 20D and D70) and I keep going back and forth like a ping-pong ball! Nikon has a great rebate deal going on that amounts to $200 off the camera with the kit lens! There are also rebates through the end of this month (February) on accessories, like most of the lenses and electronic flashes that go with the camera...which means I could buy the camera, a 70 - 300 zoom, and a flash for less than cost of the 20D alone! It's killing me...because...
In testing the two cameras, I much prefer the look of the Canon photos! Every photo I took with the Nikon needed some post processing (mainly due to color balance). Every photo with the Canon was great right out of the box! Nikon's automatic WB (at least on the one I tested) was not very good...most of the pics came out with a strong cyan cast. Maybe things were not set correctly...I don't know! I asked the store salesman to set it on auto because I couldn't figure it out. There are an awful lot of confusing configurations to learn with the Nikon (pushing in a button while rotating one command wheel did one thing, pushing the same button and rotating the other wheel did another...the camera is rather confusing unless you're a real video game guru!).
However, the Nikon had a more "solid" feel to it, although the Nikon body is plastic and the Canon has a metal base! The Canon kit lens seems a little cheap, but allows closer up focusing than the kit lens on the Nikon. The Nikon was lighter and felt more natural in my hands, but the viewfinder on the Canon was larger and brighter (easier on my poor tired eyes!) and I did like the auto focusing with it. The Nikon has a better metering system...and the see-saw goes on and on (it's getting late and my mind is getting a little foggy!). If I think of anything else I've come across, I'll add it to this thread.
Bottom line is...Nikon is the better bargain, Canon takes the seemingly better out of the camera photo. Nikon images seem more scientifically realistic, Canon's seem more artistically realized (does that make sense?). Canon images are more saturated and seem to have more "depth" to them (I suspect the Digic image processor adds a blur layer and a sharpened layer to get this look because I've simulated it with my own photos)...Nikon's are probably truer to the actual scene. Canon makes people look like they've had a great makeover...Nikon shows every little blemish and wrinkle, every pore and nose hair...and not necessarily in the best light. But... I was able to adjust the Nikon photos in editing to where the looked very nice (to my eyes!). (I took my own CF cards to the camera store so I could compare photos at home).
Does this help you in your decision making? I'm thinking if I can hold out until after the PMA show, maybe something else will come along to help me break out of this deadlock! Arrrrrrggggghhhh!!!!
I'd judge the lenses first, then the bodies. The lenses make the picture. Don't be swayed by a rebate necessarily, if you have the camera system for 5 years and are uhappy with it, they few dollars will not make a difference.
You may want to rent one camera for the day and see how you like it.
Good write up....buuut ive read the exact opposite all over the net re the photo quality. Hey....thats the net.
I think its a bit like 'GM v's Ford' myself. No-one is 100% correct. Are you able to post a couple of the shots you took ?
There are little things to take into account in this decision like the D70 body being polycarbonate....it will take a drop well over a metal body. Dropping cameras is my specialty & its things like this that rate for me over a small tech spec that fish can dig up on google god love him.
Other things need to be looked at also...in about 3 years, both these cameras will be on Ebay for about $200-$300 BUT the nice quality lens that we had the good sense of mind to buy with either camera will maybe be slightly dearer & still fit the new model (well...maybe the nikon anyway)
There is a lot more but im over it now & cranking the coin machine like crazy to buy one before i get to yosemite so i am familiar with one of them. I will still pick up some nice lenses in the US.
Good write up....buuut ive read the exact opposite all over the net re the photo quality. Hey....thats the net.
I think its a bit like 'GM v's Ford' myself. No-one is 100% correct. Are you able to post a couple of the shots you took ?
There are little things to take into account in this decision like the D70 body being polycarbonate....it will take a drop well over a metal body. Dropping cameras is my specialty & its things like this that rate for me over a small tech spec that fish can dig up on google god love him.
Other things need to be looked at also...in about 3 years, both these cameras will be on Ebay for about $200-$300 BUT the nice quality lens that we had the good sense of mind to buy with either camera will maybe be slightly dearer & still fit the new model (well...maybe the nikon anyway)
There is a lot more but im over it now & cranking the coin machine like crazy to buy one before i get to yosemite so i am familiar with one of them. I will still pick up some nice lenses in the US.
I hear a D70 purchase coming up by you 'gus?? Live long and prosper in the land of Nikonians Will you still talk to us fellows who use the white lenses?? I was a Nikonian years ago - does that still count??
I miss seeing your daily walkabout pictures with your Oly that got dropped. :uhoh
.....but the nice quality lens that we had the good sense of mind to buy with either camera will maybe be slightly dearer & still fit the new model (well...maybe the nikon anyway)
hmm there are lenses going back years that work on all the canon bodies, every one of them, from the 300d to the 1Ds Mark II. the only currently-for-sale lenses that are "special" to particular bodies are the ef-s lenses, they work on the 300d and the 20d.
hmm there are lenses going back years that work on all the canon bodies, every one of them, from the 300d to the 1Ds Mark II. the only currently-for-sale lenses that are "special" to particular bodies are the ef-s lenses, they work on the 300d and the 20d.
I've read about adapters for FD lenses that allow them to mount on the EOS mount and be used as a manual lens also. A few shooters are using the Zeiss( I think) Distagon - a very wide angle lens manually on a Canon 1Ds. Very wide angle lenses do not really need a lot of focusing due to their extreme depth of field. Have you read bout this Andy?
I think its a bit like 'GM v's Ford' myself. No-one is 100% correct. Are you able to post a couple of the shots you took ?
I own a GM pickup. When I asked why I should buy the GM over the Chevy (same
exact thing), the dealer said "because GM makes the bolts tighter" or something
like that.
Same holds for the Nikon/Canon choice. In the end, it's a brand preference more
than it is a technical difference (where's the flamesuit smilie?).
Ian
Moderator Journeys/Sports/Big Picture :: Need some help with dgrin?
I've got a dollar that says there's a Nikon in Humungus' future.
(dkapp the DB need not apply )
"Consulting the rules of composition before taking a photograph, is like consulting the laws of gravity before going for a walk." - Edward Weston "The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over."-Hunter S.Thompson
"I hear a D70 purchase coming up by you 'gus?? Live long and prosper in the land of Nikonians Will you still talk to us fellows who use the white lenses??"
"I hear a D70 purchase coming up by you 'gus?? Live long and prosper in the land of Nikonians Will you still talk to us fellows who use the white lenses??"
So?
"Consulting the rules of composition before taking a photograph, is like consulting the laws of gravity before going for a walk." - Edward Weston "The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over."-Hunter S.Thompson
Some comparison photos between the D70 and 20D*
*Please don't expect something like what you'd see on Dpreview or some other review site! My comparisions are totally unscientific...I didn't try to use the same focal lengths, settings or exposures...just the standard lens with each camera and auto exposures. In a way, maybe it's more "honest" because in real life that is what we'll be doing, !
Canon 20D with onboard flash (no post processing except to resize and USM)
I think Nikon photos are probably more representational of the actual scene (the color cast may have been due to color temperature...it was getting on toward dusk...and this photo was taken without the flash, though the auto WB could have done a better job!). Canon photos are enhanced by the Digic processing...more saturated, sharp, but with a *softer* look to them (possibly from built in noise suppression?).
I think it's more personal preference as far as what looks good to your own eyes. I'm still at am impasse...actually because of our current available money situation, I'm leaning toward Nikon because I can get more equipment to begin with, and I'm fairly happy with the post processed images. But I still prefer the *look* of the Canon out of the camera images, so the main issue for me is that Nikon photos will probably need an extra color balance and color saturation step, plus some added contrast until I learn how to set those parameters in the camera myself (Unfortunately, I'm not the quickest learner, and learning all the Nikon dials and buttons is a bit intimidating for me).
But I'm gonna try and hold off until near the end of the month to see if anything new crops up on the horizon that may affect my decision.
One quirky note about Nikon... their lenses zoom *backwards* to most other cameras. To zoom in, you rotate the lens counter clockwise instead of clockwise. If you're left handed, this is probably a real boon. If not, it takes a little getting used to!
One caution I've come across about Canon...there has been a problem reported by some owners in regard to error msgs and the camera freezing up and needing to be sent in for repair. On the users ratings at Dpreview and some online camera stores, I noticed that most D70 owners had no complaints and loved their cameras. And I noticed that most 20D owners loved their cameras, but that many of them had some complaints (mostly about the above mentioned problem)! Just an aside I thought was kind of interesting...
I think it goes to prove...there ain't no such thing as a "perfect" camera...
hmm there are lenses going back years that work on all the canon bodies, every one of them, from the 300d to the 1Ds Mark II. the only currently-for-sale lenses that are "special" to particular bodies are the ef-s lenses, they work on the 300d and the 20d.
and here i was thinking...i wont get anyone with that stinky bait i get the canonaphile
I hear a D70 purchase coming up by you 'gus?? Live long and prosper in the land of Nikonians Will you still talk to us fellows who use the white lenses?? I was a Nikonian years ago - does that still count??
I miss seeing your daily walkabout pictures with your Oly that got dropped. :uhoh
Jury is still out but 'bang for buck' the nikon has it so far.
Like i said ...both these cameras will be antiques in 3 years so it does not matter which i choose.
I never realised how boring work is without a camera with me
Jury is still out but 'bang for buck' the nikon has it so far.
Like i said ...both these cameras will be antiques in 3 years so it does not matter which i choose.
I never realised how boring work is without a camera with me
haven't andy and waxman beaten the lens thing into you yet? sure they'll both be antiques, but the lenses won't....
I recently took the "color" challenge myself. Shot two exact things with my friend's D70, and with my 300D using our simplest lenses (50mm 1.8 me, 1.4 nikkor, him). So I know the test isn't perfect, but on my screen, i liked the color tones of mine better. Maybe I'm conditioned at this point. who knows.
Comments
'gus, enough advice, fingers crossed for you that the numbers crunch in your favor and a dslr finds its way to to you
moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]
If you're looking at a 10D, I would categorically say to get a 20D instead. In fact, if you're looking at a 300D but could swing a 20D, I would say a 20D instead. It is a markedly better camera.
I have been pretty happy with my 300D -- very nice images, all-around good performer. Stay away from full auto mode (in fact, I suggest staying away from all its high-automation modes) and you'll do fine. Charles had the most trouble with the green-box mode, I think if he'd left it in P mode he would have been much happier. He was accustomed to much higher end bodies that do a better job at full automation, whereas I come from manual-only and am happy doing a lot of the work. (I am shocked at how much I like AF though.)
I would have bought a D70 had it been available. I like my Canon glass a lot, but I like Nikon glass too. And the D70 corrects the one glaring deficiency in the 300D, namely slow write speed. At ~5sec per RAW frame you can easily find yourself waiting, and waiting, and waiting. If you're shooting sports you must shoot JPEG.
The 10D suffers from the same write speed problem as the 300D and that makes it a poor buy IMO, although if you could pick up a used one at a 300D price it would be worth jumping on.
Speaking of the D70, the one thing that has bugged me about shots I've seen taken with it is some blooming. Look at this one:
http://photo.gouldhome.com/gallery/266257/1/12380917
(Not my pic, so you have to go to the site.)
Look at the edges of the skyscrapers in the full resolution image. I'm not sure what caused that -- could be lens, could be JPEG artifact, but I don't like it. Here's a similar high-contrast hard-edge image with the 300D:
(full res: http://www.frostbytes.com/gallery-albums/scenery/CRW_2046.jpg)
Notice the totally sharp edges. I can get nastiness if I push it harder, eg:
(full res: http://www.frostbytes.com/gallery-albums/scenery/CRW_6682.jpg)
(Unfortunately the gallery software I use really screwed the color on both of these, but comparing these against the originals I see the same detail.) The fine detail of the branches is lost, introducing some funny artifacts especially in the highest contrast horizon line, and there is some banding in the clouds, but overall it's noticably less badness.
I don't know if the issue is the D70's sensor, the lens he used (I used a 28-70 L for the first shot, 70-200 L for the second), or the conversion software (he used Nikon's tool, I used C1) but whatever -- he's got a great shot there that is spoiled to a degree by something.
The very worst kind. Gonna be hard to tempt me now that I have a pretty full range of lenses though. But a 20D is calling my name.
jimf@frostbytes.com
$1600 is alright, here in WA just before xmas it was $2100 bundled with a 300mm tamron. A $200 cash back also applied
Ed
i think i've had kleenex that lasted longer than my 20d
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Last summer I traded my Nikon F100 in on a D70 and, though I had a similar Tamron lens, got the bundled Nikon lens, convinced that at twice the price of my old Tamron 28-105mm it would be a great improvement. I was greatly disappointed and eventually returned it.
Firstly, I quickly encountered problems with the auto focus being... out of focus. I realize that this is not supposed to be a problem with the lens, but when I switched it out with my Tamron, this problem disappeared (as well as discovering that the Tamron was actually much faster). Perhaps it was a faulty lens, but I wasn't going to exchange it and try another one.
Secondly, the lens hood actually blocks the onboard flash (I know those flashes are pretty hokey, but still...) leaving a dark crescent on the bottom of the image when it is facing outward. If you put it on facing inward, it overlaps the telephoto ring making it difficult to zoom. In short, the lens hood is poorly designed and spent most it's time in my camera bag.
On the plus side, the macro was better than my Tamron and the 67mm glass should be pretty good. Beware that it is also one of Nikon's new G-mount lenses that don't have an aperture ring, making them lighter and cheaper... This is Nikon's new bottom end hardware and feels like it.
The D70 has been a good camera to work with and Nikon's NEF lossless compression has consistently impressed me. My old Coolpix 880 shot 3.2MP lossless at 9MB/image and the D70 shoots 6MP lossless at 9MB/i9mage.
As a side note, the compression means that at the end of your 'digital roll' you will actually get more photos than indicated at the start. It's like your 12 exp. film roll squeezing off 14 or 15.
I always considered lens hoods an accessory, as in, something to be used once in a while for the right situation.
moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]
I use hoods on all my lenses *almost* all the time. I use them as 'bump' insurance. You know for those times when you accidentally smack the end of your lens on the coffee table or the fence or whatever else is hanging out waiting to jump up and bite you. I normally use no filters (not even a 1A or UV) on my lenses so I like having that extra inch or so on the end of the lens.
Not to mention, you never know when the Evil Dr. Flare will arise.
I have the same issue withthe hood and the flash. So when is the right time to use a hood? I too was advised of the bump factor, and took it to heart. I have tried the hood from a Tamron and it seemed to help, but again, when do you hood and when do you not. Be kind, I'm a beginner. I love my D70, and like my other Nikons as well.
A man can do as he wills, but not will as he wills.
An opinion should be the result of thought,not the replacement of it.:scratch
Operating System Design, Drivers, Software
Villa Del Rio II, Talamban, Pit-os, Cebu, Ph
Humungus: The good news is that you are faced with a no-lose decision. I bought the D70 because I am a lifetime Nikon user with a fair bit invested in the glass. It was not, however, a no-brainer. At the end of the day either camera will serve you well. One note on battery life. My D70 can go on forever on a single battery charge. I have a spare battery but have never had to pop it in while shooting. The batter can last for several days of shooting even hundreds of frames/day.
Good luck and remember, there is no bad choice here.
Steve
The shadow from the onboard flash is not unique to Nikon. You'll see it with the Canon 300D, or the 20D as well. Like cmr said, the onboard flash is low and close to the optical axis of the camera and hence lens hoods, particularly for wide angles, tend to create large curved shadows in the lower part of the frame.
Leaving the lens hood off is one poor solution; a better solution is a hot shoe mounted flash, or even better, a flash on an auxilliary hand like the wedding photogs use. This gets the flash up and away from the lens axis, and also makes the flash look more like normal illumination.
Lens hoods help prevent lens flare from lights in the environment.
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
The internal flash is a wonderfully convenient fill device. It's somewhat disappointing as a primary light source tho.
"The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over."-Hunter S.Thompson
None of the onboard flashes are good as a primary light scource. You are correct, Fish, that some onboard flashes are worse than others regarding shadowing. Trippy has an N60 Nikon film camera and it will do the same thing for the same reason. And yes, the 20D is a little better than the 10D, because the 20D flash stands up a little higher above the optical axis.
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
thats just a personal view btw fish...
I've been trying out both cameras (the 20D and D70) and I keep going back and forth like a ping-pong ball! Nikon has a great rebate deal going on that amounts to $200 off the camera with the kit lens! There are also rebates through the end of this month (February) on accessories, like most of the lenses and electronic flashes that go with the camera...which means I could buy the camera, a 70 - 300 zoom, and a flash for less than cost of the 20D alone! It's killing me...because...
In testing the two cameras, I much prefer the look of the Canon photos! Every photo I took with the Nikon needed some post processing (mainly due to color balance). Every photo with the Canon was great right out of the box! Nikon's automatic WB (at least on the one I tested) was not very good...most of the pics came out with a strong cyan cast. Maybe things were not set correctly...I don't know! I asked the store salesman to set it on auto because I couldn't figure it out. There are an awful lot of confusing configurations to learn with the Nikon (pushing in a button while rotating one command wheel did one thing, pushing the same button and rotating the other wheel did another...the camera is rather confusing unless you're a real video game guru!).
However, the Nikon had a more "solid" feel to it, although the Nikon body is plastic and the Canon has a metal base! The Canon kit lens seems a little cheap, but allows closer up focusing than the kit lens on the Nikon. The Nikon was lighter and felt more natural in my hands, but the viewfinder on the Canon was larger and brighter (easier on my poor tired eyes!) and I did like the auto focusing with it. The Nikon has a better metering system...and the see-saw goes on and on (it's getting late and my mind is getting a little foggy!). If I think of anything else I've come across, I'll add it to this thread.
Bottom line is...Nikon is the better bargain, Canon takes the seemingly better out of the camera photo. Nikon images seem more scientifically realistic, Canon's seem more artistically realized (does that make sense?). Canon images are more saturated and seem to have more "depth" to them (I suspect the Digic image processor adds a blur layer and a sharpened layer to get this look because I've simulated it with my own photos)...Nikon's are probably truer to the actual scene. Canon makes people look like they've had a great makeover...Nikon shows every little blemish and wrinkle, every pore and nose hair...and not necessarily in the best light. But... I was able to adjust the Nikon photos in editing to where the looked very nice (to my eyes!). (I took my own CF cards to the camera store so I could compare photos at home).
Does this help you in your decision making? I'm thinking if I can hold out until after the PMA show, maybe something else will come along to help me break out of this deadlock! Arrrrrrggggghhhh!!!!
Oh well...hope you're staying high and dry!
~Nee
http://www.pbase.com/rdavis
If at first you don't succeed, destroy all the evidence that you tried~
You may want to rent one camera for the day and see how you like it.
I think its a bit like 'GM v's Ford' myself. No-one is 100% correct. Are you able to post a couple of the shots you took ?
There are little things to take into account in this decision like the D70 body being polycarbonate....it will take a drop well over a metal body. Dropping cameras is my specialty & its things like this that rate for me over a small tech spec that fish can dig up on google
Other things need to be looked at also...in about 3 years, both these cameras will be on Ebay for about $200-$300 BUT the nice quality lens that we had the good sense of mind to buy with either camera will maybe be slightly dearer & still fit the new model (well...maybe the nikon anyway)
There is a lot more but im over it now & cranking the coin machine like crazy to buy one before i get to yosemite so i am familiar with one of them. I will still pick up some nice lenses in the US.
I hear a D70 purchase coming up by you 'gus?? Live long and prosper in the land of Nikonians
I miss seeing your daily walkabout pictures with your Oly that got dropped. :uhoh
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
hmm there are lenses going back years that work on all the canon bodies, every one of them, from the 300d to the 1Ds Mark II. the only currently-for-sale lenses that are "special" to particular bodies are the ef-s lenses, they work on the 300d and the 20d.
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I've read about adapters for FD lenses that allow them to mount on the EOS mount and be used as a manual lens also. A few shooters are using the Zeiss( I think) Distagon - a very wide angle lens manually on a Canon 1Ds. Very wide angle lenses do not really need a lot of focusing due to their extreme depth of field. Have you read bout this Andy?
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
exact thing), the dealer said "because GM makes the bolts tighter" or something
like that.
Same holds for the Nikon/Canon choice. In the end, it's a brand preference more
than it is a technical difference (where's the flamesuit smilie?).
Ian
(dkapp the DB need not apply
"The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over."-Hunter S.Thompson
I already said that here, Fish
http://dgrin.com/showpost.php?p=56254&postcount=80
"I hear a D70 purchase coming up by you 'gus?? Live long and prosper in the land of Nikonians Will you still talk to us fellows who use the white lenses??"
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
So?
"The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over."-Hunter S.Thompson
*Please don't expect something like what you'd see on Dpreview or some other review site! My comparisions are totally unscientific...I didn't try to use the same focal lengths, settings or exposures...just the standard lens with each camera and auto exposures. In a way, maybe it's more "honest" because in real life that is what we'll be doing,
Canon 20D with onboard flash (no post processing except to resize and USM)
http://nee.smugmug.com/photos/15280504-L.jpg
Canon again...no flash...auto WB
http://nee.smugmug.com/photos/15280507-L.jpg
Nikon with no flash, auto WB (but processed for color balance)
http://nee.smugmug.com/photos/15280508-L.jpg
Nikon D70 with onboard flash (no post processing except to resize and USM)
http://nee.smugmug.com/photos/15280510-L.jpg
Same photo, with processing to make it look more like Canon pics
http://nee.smugmug.com/photos/15280511-L.jpg
Close up comparisons:
Canon-
http://nee.smugmug.com/photos/15280505-L.jpg
Nikon- (with post processing to tone down the cyan cast with auto WB)
http://nee.smugmug.com/photos/15280509-L.jpg
I think Nikon photos are probably more representational of the actual scene (the color cast may have been due to color temperature...it was getting on toward dusk...and this photo was taken without the flash, though the auto WB could have done a better job!). Canon photos are enhanced by the Digic processing...more saturated, sharp, but with a *softer* look to them (possibly from built in noise suppression?).
I think it's more personal preference as far as what looks good to your own eyes. I'm still at am impasse...actually because of our current available money situation, I'm leaning toward Nikon because I can get more equipment to begin with, and I'm fairly happy with the post processed images. But I still prefer the *look* of the Canon out of the camera images, so the main issue for me is that Nikon photos will probably need an extra color balance and color saturation step, plus some added contrast until I learn how to set those parameters in the camera myself (Unfortunately, I'm not the quickest learner, and learning all the Nikon dials and buttons is a bit intimidating for me).
But I'm gonna try and hold off until near the end of the month to see if anything new crops up on the horizon that may affect my decision.
One quirky note about Nikon... their lenses zoom *backwards* to most other cameras. To zoom in, you rotate the lens counter clockwise instead of clockwise. If you're left handed, this is probably a real boon. If not, it takes a little getting used to!
One caution I've come across about Canon...there has been a problem reported by some owners in regard to error msgs and the camera freezing up and needing to be sent in for repair. On the users ratings at Dpreview and some online camera stores, I noticed that most D70 owners had no complaints and loved their cameras. And I noticed that most 20D owners loved their cameras, but that many of them had some complaints (mostly about the above mentioned problem)! Just an aside I thought was kind of interesting...
I think it goes to prove...there ain't no such thing as a "perfect" camera...
Cheers!
~Nee
http://www.pbase.com/rdavis
If at first you don't succeed, destroy all the evidence that you tried~
Like i said ...both these cameras will be antiques in 3 years so it does not matter which i choose.
I never realised how boring work is without a camera with me
I recently took the "color" challenge myself. Shot two exact things with my friend's D70, and with my 300D using our simplest lenses (50mm 1.8 me, 1.4 nikkor, him). So I know the test isn't perfect, but on my screen, i liked the color tones of mine better. Maybe I'm conditioned at this point. who knows.
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