Mark III focusing issues???

24

Comments

  • HarrybHarryb Registered Users, Retired Mod Posts: 22,708 Major grins
    edited June 18, 2007
    imageswest wrote:
    Canon CPS had allotted two Mark III's for me, but after hearing Rob Galbraith wasn't convinced that his production camera autofocused much better than his test model did, I elected to pass on them.

    I'm hearing lots of problems with the camera, including a pro dealer in Germany who apparently sent his entire shipment back to Canon because quite a few of his customers were demanding refunds. It amazes me how Canon seems to do this with every new camera they release... rolleyes1.gif

    Its important to realize that we don't know anything for sure yet. The vast majority of responses from Mark III users have been estatic and there have been a fair number of complaints. Its not unusual with a release of a new camera for the unhappy users to get more attention.

    To say that Canon has done something is a bit premature. We don't know for sure if there is an issue yet. If there is one is due to firmware (apparantly there are different firmware versions on the released Mark IIIs), is just in some of the earlier released cameras, etc.

    Lets sit back and see what transpires before we make any hasty conclusions.
    Harry
    http://behret.smugmug.com/ NANPA member
    How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
  • imageswestimageswest Registered Users Posts: 44 Big grins
    edited June 18, 2007
    Harryb wrote:
    Its important to realize that we don't know anything for sure yet. The vast majority of responses from Mark III users have been estatic and there have been a fair number of complaints. Its not unusual with a release of a new camera for the unhappy users to get more attention.

    To say that Canon has done something is a bit premature. We don't know for sure if there is an issue yet. If there is one is due to firmware (apparantly there are different firmware versions on the released Mark IIIs), is just in some of the earlier released cameras, etc.

    Lets sit back and see what transpires before we make any hasty conclusions.
    Just my opinion based on 15 years as a (former) Canon pro shooter, Harry. A lot of us have seen this movie before! :lurk

    p.s. - here's an interesting article from Rob Galbraith: http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-8740-9006
  • HarrybHarryb Registered Users, Retired Mod Posts: 22,708 Major grins
    edited June 20, 2007
    imageswest wrote:
    Just my opinion based on 15 years as a (former) Canon pro shooter, Harry. A lot of us have seen this movie before! :lurk

    p.s. - here's an interesting article from Rob Galbraith: http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-8740-9006

    Galbraith listed the AF issues in his latest article:
    1. Under certain conditions, the EOS-1D Mark III has difficulty acquiring focus initially. In a multi-frame burst, the camera will sometimes shoot three to five frames before a moving subject comes into focus, and occasionally a moving subject will not actually snap into focus before the burst is completed.

    2. Under certain conditions, the camera is unable to properly track a moving subject. We've shot numerous sequences of 20+ frames where no more than five or six frames are in focus, even when the AF point has been on the subject throughout.

    3. Focus can shift slightly but constantly at times when the subject isn't moving. Under certain conditions, the subject may not actually come into focus through a sequence of frames, even though the point of focus can be seen to be shifting throughout the sequence. This is true whether the camera is set to AI Servo and focus is active throughout the sequence, or when it's set to One Shot and focus is activated between each frame.

    4. When tracking a subject that's moving somewhat erratically, the camera is far too quick to shift focus elsewhere - to the background or, with a field sport like soccer, to a player passing through in the foreground. With the first three problems, autofocus settings changes don't make things better or worse. With this problem, Custom Function III-2, AI Servo Tracking Sensitivity, does have an impact. But regardless of how this Custom Function is set, it's not possible to make the camera's tracking sensitivity be right. There's more on this ahead in the article.
    Harry
    http://behret.smugmug.com/ NANPA member
    How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
  • S. HortonS. Horton Registered Users Posts: 192 Major grins
    edited June 22, 2007
    To cut to the chase, would seasoned professionals generally recommend that consumers await the Mark IIIN? A first round of firmware updates? Not wait because if the gear is set up properly it works?

    ne_nau.gif
  • Ric GrupeRic Grupe Registered Users Posts: 9,522 Major grins
    edited June 23, 2007
    Here is a place to look, Harry. (if you haven't been there already) :D

    http://www.dphotojournal.com/canon-eos-1d-mark-iii/
  • claudermilkclaudermilk Registered Users Posts: 2,756 Major grins
    edited June 23, 2007
    S. Horton wrote:
    To cut to the chase, would seasoned professionals generally recommend that consumers await the Mark IIIN? A first round of firmware updates? Not wait because if the gear is set up properly it works?

    ne_nau.gif

    There is no general consensus yet. Even the pros I'm seeing posting here & elsewhere are debating the focusing thing. Some are running into the issues Galbraith outlines, others are not. Personally, if I were in line to get one, I'd grab mine and see how it works out and go from there.
  • pnphotopnphoto Registered Users Posts: 38 Big grins
    edited June 23, 2007
    Wow.

    Early this week I was speaking to "my" camera store guy, and was arranging a deposit on two mark III's, and a whole butt load of glass. Big decision.

    Read Galbraith's article and have gone into hold pattern. I shoot lots of sports, so focus is critical. I have read way too many issues to commit, I understand that some people don't have any problems, but it is clear that just as many people do have problems with the MIII. As the poster above notes, I too would just get one if I already had all the glass, but making a big switch needs a bit more certainty that I get bodies that work.

    The only thing that might stop the switch is Nikon coming out with a 10 fps body and high iso performance before Canon fixes the MIII AF issue.

    Anyone wanna buy some Nikon glass? Sale subject to either
    (a) New Nikon body with high iso performance
    (b) Canon fix the MIII AF issues
    Pete

    www.pnphoto.smugmug.com

    __________________________________________
    D200, D2Xs, 70-200 f/2.8, 300 f/2.8, 200-400 f/4, 17-55 f/2.8, 10.5 f/2.8, 105 f/2.8, 80-400// 1DMIIn, 1DMIII, 16-35 f/2.8, 24-70 f/2.8, 300 f/2.8, 100-400
  • S. HortonS. Horton Registered Users Posts: 192 Major grins
    edited June 23, 2007
    We backed off when that article came up as well -- we were going to add the MKIII, sell both 30Ds. Looks like now we'll wait it out on the MKIII.
  • ziggy53ziggy53 Super Moderators Posts: 24,132 moderator
    edited June 24, 2007
    For anyone needing a camera "now" for sports or rapid action nature, the camera I would recommend is the Canon 1D MKIIN. This is still the hands-down favorite of Sports Illustrated, and it is a known entity. It is also considerably less expensive than the MKIII.

    If you have the money and want to speculate on whether the MKIII will meet your needs, there is a good chance that, in most instances, it will. The photographers having problems with the MKIII are suceeding in overcoming the problem by shooting extra images, something the MKIII is awfully good at (lots of images in a very short time).
    ziggy53
    Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
  • HarrybHarryb Registered Users, Retired Mod Posts: 22,708 Major grins
    edited June 27, 2007
    Rod G. added an additional section to his article on the Mark III.

    Basically he says that within 48 hours of his article going up up he received over 200 complaints re:the Mark III's AF.
    Harry
    http://behret.smugmug.com/ NANPA member
    How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
  • HarrybHarryb Registered Users, Retired Mod Posts: 22,708 Major grins
    edited July 2, 2007
    Rod G. has added new info to his Mark III article today.
    Harry
    http://behret.smugmug.com/ NANPA member
    How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
  • NetgardenNetgarden Registered Users Posts: 829 Major grins
    edited July 4, 2007
    Harryb wrote:
    Rod G. has added new info to his Mark III article today.
    I'm watching this closely too. Although I don't use Aiservo anyway, so it probably wouldn't be an issue for me. But the one reason why I am more successful with the center point focus rather than aiservo is that the focus doesn't jump to the wrong place or background. Much more accurate. Stange, the reason I don't use aiservo on my 20D is for the same issues the MkIII is having. birds heading towards you. It's been an issue for me and my 20D and I have solved it. And if your lenses are the least bit off on calibration, especially a long lens, the problem is exaggerated and worse.
    I've never had good luck with large evaluation/or large focus point areas with BIFs.

    I'm so curious to see how the MkIII does in my settings. Is there anyone who doesn't use aiservo like me?
  • John MuellerJohn Mueller Registered Users Posts: 2,555 Major grins
    edited July 7, 2007
    One week and almost 3000 clicks,in most situations the cam focuses rather well.I have had it go a miss with certain function settings and objects coming toward me.
    The details,IQ and the low noise at high ISO blows my mind.
    Perhaps another 3k clicks this weekeek7.gif
  • PrescottPhotogPrescottPhotog Registered Users Posts: 1,174 Major grins
    edited July 7, 2007
    Mark III 1500 shots - one weekend
    Harryb wrote:
    Hi Y'all,

    I've been drooling over the Mark III's specs since it was announced. If Nikon didn't come out with a improved D2H model by the end of this year I was/am seriously considering a switch.

    Hi Harry,

    I was following the hysteria over at the DP Review forum when the M3 first came out. I have one on order and am getting very concerned.
    '
    Prescott Photog, Chris - " One Shot, One Still "
    '
    Canon CPS Member
    SmugMug Pro User - www.PrescottOutdoors.net
    NAPP Member..Click for Info
  • HarrybHarryb Registered Users, Retired Mod Posts: 22,708 Major grins
    edited July 7, 2007
    [
    quote=PrescottPhotog]Hi Harry,


    My conclusion is that most (not all) of what you are hearing about the AF system is piling on. Most of the hysteria I read was from people that had never held the camera but were taking legitimate posts about a problem and blowing them totally out of proportion. What some people were writing was unbelieveable. I'm not talking about the Pro's comments, it's the hysteria that others were trying to cause after those posts that was concerning.

    I have never put much faith in the hysteria at DPR everytime a new camera is released. I know a few Canonites who are having serious problems with their Mark IIIs. These are experienced shooters who are some of the best nature shooters I know. That coupled with RG's findings lead me to believe there is some issue. The extent of it and the seriousness of it still has to be determined, IMHO.

    Its perplexing because I have seen knock out results from the camera and then some horrendous examples of misfocusing from it. If the focusing issue can be resolved (either by correction or explanation) you have a dream camera with unrivaled low llight capabilities.

    I'm going to sit back and see how this plays out. :lurk
    Harry
    http://behret.smugmug.com/ NANPA member
    How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
  • ian408ian408 Administrators Posts: 21,940 moderator
    edited July 7, 2007
    I don't think we can discount the reports of problems. But it's hard to know
    what is real.
    Moderator Journeys/Sports/Big Picture :: Need some help with dgrin?
  • David_S85David_S85 Administrators Posts: 13,245 moderator
    edited July 8, 2007
    I can easily dismiss most of the negative stories from DPR, but I can't dismiss the more thorough report from Rob Galbraith and company. Canon is using a new technology with the focusing, so it could easily have some tweaks needed. This, if reports are true, could delay the 5DII and the 1DsIII - but kudos to Canon if they can get it working better. Soon the sales of all three new cams will depend on their next move.
    My Smugmug
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky
  • ian408ian408 Administrators Posts: 21,940 moderator
    edited July 8, 2007
    Let's say that Canon sells 10 mkIII's. If 2 people have problems, they'll tell
    everyone they know and it will spiral from there. The 8 people who didn't
    say anything? Nobody knows they exist and as far as any prospective buyer
    knows, mkIII's have 'serious issues'. A substantial portion of the population
    have few to no problems yet all that's heard is the minority.

    I know this from my own experience with the GT (motorcycle). I find myself
    complaining about the two or three things that suck worst. Rarely do I say
    how much I really like the bike (and the problems are of the same "want to
    return it" variety).

    As for RG, I respect his (their?) opinion but I want to know if he is in the
    minority.
    Moderator Journeys/Sports/Big Picture :: Need some help with dgrin?
  • David_S85David_S85 Administrators Posts: 13,245 moderator
    edited July 8, 2007
    ian408 wrote:
    As for RG, I respect his (their?) opinion but I want to know if he is in the minority.

    There is that nasty hoopla effect in merely reporting an anomaly. nod.gif

    Rob has had 3 MkIII's; 1 pre-production where Canon mentioned everything worked except that same troubling AI servo (a known bug on the pre-production units), and then 2 full production cams. He also normally shoots with the MkIIn to compare with, so unlike others who just had their new MkIII shipped, I trust his opinion more than most any other report out there since he knows how to shoot with it.

    I just read an interview with Chuck Westfall (trying to find that link again) where he was quoted saying there will be more to say about the AI focusing next month. What that means is anyone's guess.

    EDIT
    Found the interview.
    My Smugmug
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky
  • HarrybHarryb Registered Users, Retired Mod Posts: 22,708 Major grins
    edited July 8, 2007
    Arthur Morris seems happy with his Mark III as he writes here.
    Harry
    http://behret.smugmug.com/ NANPA member
    How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
  • wxwaxwxwax Registered Users Posts: 15,471 Major grins
    edited July 8, 2007
    ian408 wrote:
    Let's say that Canon sells 10 mkIII's. If 2 people have problems, they'll tell
    everyone they know and it will spiral from there. The 8 people who didn't
    say anything? Nobody knows they exist and as far as any prospective buyer
    knows, mkIII's have 'serious issues'. A substantial portion of the population
    have few to no problems yet all that's heard is the minority.

    I know this from my own experience with the GT (motorcycle). I find myself
    complaining about the two or three things that suck worst. Rarely do I say
    how much I really like the bike (and the problems are of the same "want to
    return it" variety).

    As for RG, I respect his (their?) opinion but I want to know if he is in the
    minority.
    I think that's a more than reasonable point of view.

    What sways my opinion is detailed, analytical documentation of the issue, such as Galbraith's. It's not idle chatter if you can prove it. Like puking finals drives on BMW's, you don't need factory acknowledgement to know there's a problem.

    I'm curious to see how long it will take Canon to sort it out. I don't think they'll admit there's a problem until they have a solution, maybe not even then.
    Sid.
    Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
    http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
  • wxwaxwxwax Registered Users Posts: 15,471 Major grins
    edited July 8, 2007
    Harryb wrote:
    Arthur Morris seems happy with his Mark III as he writes here.
    Gosh he's good. Thanks for the link.
    Sid.
    Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
    http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
  • ian408ian408 Administrators Posts: 21,940 moderator
    edited July 8, 2007
    wxwax wrote:
    I'm curious to see how long it will take Canon to sort it out. I don't think they'll admit there's a problem until they have a solution, maybe not even then.
    I think they have, at least, ack'd the problem. Perhaps in not so many words.
    And you're right to presume that until the problem is well understood and at
    least some idea of how to resolve it, it won't be formally acknowledged. At
    least that's how BMW is handling the situation mwink.gif
    Moderator Journeys/Sports/Big Picture :: Need some help with dgrin?
  • Jim WilsonJim Wilson Registered Users Posts: 4 Beginner grinner
    edited July 8, 2007
    MKIII No Issues
    ian408 wrote:
    I think they have, at least, ack'd the problem. Perhaps in not so many words.
    And you're right to presume that until the problem is well understood and at
    least some idea of how to resolve it, it won't be formally acknowledged. At
    least that's how BMW is handling the situation mwink.gif

    I got my MKIII last week and have shot several thousand images with it, much of that air to air and ground to air work with very fast moving subjects. I find no problem at all with the camera. My guess is that it's so fast and has so many autofocus parameters that can be custom set, new users are just victims of the learning curve. Canon has done it again!

    Jim Wilson
  • ian408ian408 Administrators Posts: 21,940 moderator
    edited July 8, 2007
    Jim Wilson wrote:
    My guess is that it's so fast and has so many autofocus parameters that can be custom set, new users are just victims of the learning curve. Canon has done it again!

    Quick question. Are you using it out of the box or did you read and set the custom functions before use?
    Moderator Journeys/Sports/Big Picture :: Need some help with dgrin?
  • HarrybHarryb Registered Users, Retired Mod Posts: 22,708 Major grins
    edited July 8, 2007
    Jim Wilson wrote:
    I got my MKIII last week and have shot several thousand images with it, much of that air to air and ground to air work with very fast moving subjects. I find no problem at all with the camera. My guess is that it's so fast and has so many autofocus parameters that can be custom set, new users are just victims of the learning curve. Canon has done it again!

    Jim Wilson

    The problem is that some of the folks complaining of the issues are accomplished and very experienced shooters like Fabs and Ron G. The 200 e-mails Ron G got and the almost 50% of Mark III users on a poll at Fred Miranda's seem to indicate this may be something more than a few folks not being able to handle a new piece of equipment.

    I will always remember when the Sony-717 was released and some users reported focusing problems with it. We ridiculed them and posted the fine shots we were getting from the camera until Sony recalled the camera to address the focusing problems with it.
    Harry
    http://behret.smugmug.com/ NANPA member
    How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
  • jeff lapointjeff lapoint Registered Users Posts: 1,228 Major grins
    edited July 8, 2007
    First off, let me just say that I don't have the camera and have never shot with it, therefore everything I'm about to write is just more conjecture and forum speculationne_nau.gif Skip as neededthumb.gif

    After attempting to weed through the circus show on DPR and the mostly civilized discussions on FM, naturescapes, and CPOTN, I'll
    (foolishly) chime in with a few of my mostly obvious observations.

    1. This whole thing has turned into one huge snowballing cluster job. There is just so much crap on the forums re: the markIII it is virtually impossible at this point to be a conscientious consumer of information. Sure this is the nature of the internet, but I feel like we're on one end of the bell curve on this one.

    2. Even the information I consider reliable feels problematic. I very much respect Ron G, but what about Artie's experience? Fabs on one hand (great photographer having problems with the camera) and Alfred Forns on the other (great photographer with no problems with the camera). Shoot they even switched cameras and she felt like it "behaved better". Of course this is just my interpretation of their posts and I'm sure someone will correct me if I've misread. Doesn't this seem to indicate a design flaw is less probable and more likely an issue suggest an with QA?

    3. For me the multitude of variables make the "data" impossible to interpret, especially with polls like the one on FM. No way to normalize the poll to account for the various fan boy Canon apologists and their counterpart the "I hate everything Canon" trolls. How do I know how many posters don't know how to shoot at all, but have a ton of cash and really dig their neat new toy. Weeding out the measure bater crowd complaining that their 100% crop wont print sharply to billboard size is just as daunting. I even think there is one last pair of shooters that exists. One half bought the camera and loved it until reading all the negative reports and now is convinced there is a problem. Almost an internet photography forum folie a deux. Then there are the other half that was sure there is a problem but are now certain there was just a steep learning curve that they have now sorted out.

    And how about the biggest curve ball of all, inter-operator variation in performance and skill/ shooting style.

    I don't have 1/10th the skill at shooting BIF's as Fabs probably has in her big toe, but I think every now and again I get some ok shots with my 1DIIn. But I would never shoot with the same settings as she does (ring of fire). I have grown to trust only my center point for fast moving small birds in flight and I never expect all the shots of a machine gun burst to be razor sharp.

    4. I've decided the only way to know for sure if the camera will work for me is to try it myself. I'm not ready to do that yet financially, but when it comes time that needs to be the gold standard. At least this whole thing has pointed out to me my own over reliance on internet reviews and opinions. Sure, they can be valuable, but without me being attentive to the source of the info and the biases/limitations of those sources the information is useless.

    Sorry for the long, rambling, and only partially on topic post!

    -j
  • Jim WilsonJim Wilson Registered Users Posts: 4 Beginner grinner
    edited July 9, 2007
    ian408 wrote:
    Quick question. Are you using it out of the box or did you read and set the custom functions before use?
    Hi Ian,

    I went through and set basic parameters. I have shot the camera on AI Servo and high speed drive and one shot. I haven't found a problem yet. I love Canon gear and have 2 1Ds MKII's but I'd be the first to be vocal if a product didn't measure up. That's not to say the people having problems are imagining it. I don't have their cameras, only mine. I do notice that the auto focus is lightning fast and you better have it on the right selection for what your shooting or it'll zip in on some other facet of the composition and soften everything else. So far though with well over 1,000 shots, I'm pretty happy with the camera.

    Jim Wilson
  • ThusieThusie Registered Users Posts: 1,818 Major grins
    edited July 9, 2007
    Jumping in Well said Jeff! I've been following the same threads on the same lists. I don't even have the MK2:D But if I had the $$$$, need to recoup from the 300 f2.8L, I'd buy the MK3 right now.

    Like a friend of mine told me, he does have the MK3, the only way to know is get down in the dirt with it.

    What ever issues there are Canon will get them taken care of. I do believe some cameras do have issues, but I also believe there are many more that don't. What is irking me more than anything is the whole chit chat has went to, if you are not having problems you don't know what your doing and if you do have problems you don't know what your doing. That is just nuts.
  • jeff lapointjeff lapoint Registered Users Posts: 1,228 Major grins
    edited July 10, 2007
    Thusie wrote:
    Jumping in Well said Jeff! I've been following the same threads on the same lists. I don't even have the MK2:D But if I had the $$$$, need to recoup from the 300 f2.8L, I'd buy the MK3 right now.

    Like a friend of mine told me, he does have the MK3, the only way to know is get down in the dirt with it.

    What ever issues there are Canon will get them taken care of. I do believe some cameras do have issues, but I also believe there are many more that don't. What is irking me more than anything is the whole chit chat has went to, if you are not having problems you don't know what your doing and if you do have problems you don't know what your doing. That is just nuts.

    Thanks. I very much do believe some people have malfunctions that are not anywhere near their fault, its just that all the babble makes it impossible to makes a reasonable approximation as to the prevalence of the problem.

    Enjoy that 300!

    -j
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