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Warning - Sports related Rant -
This is definitely a RANT!!!
I think I’m going to stop training people to take money from me.
I’ve been shooting HS sports for 2007 & 2008 with a national company that pays me an event fee. I like that; I’m tired of shooting spec. (Although all my rodeo work is spec)
Anyway, their budget got tight nearing the end of the season and they cut several schools a couple of months early. Mine was one of them. One of the main criteria was how many pictures were being sold from that school. Nothing new here, life goes on.
Here’s the rub:
Come to find out, according to the AD, the local “dads” pictures were getting good enough that the other parents were opting to just download their “free” pictures instead of “paying” for ours. It was noted that our pics were of a higher quality, but the “free” pics were good enough for the price. Still, nothing new here, happens all the time.
But, I’ve been helping, training these guys if you will, all season. The school is located in an affluent part of the metroplex, so the dads have a good bit of play money. The last softball game I shot, there were 5 white lenses there, mine was one. These guys are showing up with 40D’s, 1DMkII’s, D300’s, etc. One dad at the last game even had a Canon 300mm f/2.8 on his 40D. Yep, camera on his new monopod, mounted from the camera base. That huge lens dangling off the front totally unsupported. :huh
The point is:
These guys have the equipment and the same field access that I have, they just didn’t have the knowledge to use it right. Unfortunately, I provided a lot of that knowledge for them, enough over the season for them to start producing half-way decent pictures.
Not only did I loose a couple months worth of contract work due to the drop-off in sales, I’m not sure if this school will get picked-up this fall. That would mean a lot of money lost!
I realize that several here do this very thing thinking that it doesn’t hurt anyone. Well, that’s not always the case, is it?
Of course I’ll just move on and get other gigs, but this really torques me.
This Mr. Nice Guy attitude just bit me in the butt!!! --- I think I’m done with it.
-- Rant Over --
I think I’m going to stop training people to take money from me.
I’ve been shooting HS sports for 2007 & 2008 with a national company that pays me an event fee. I like that; I’m tired of shooting spec. (Although all my rodeo work is spec)
Anyway, their budget got tight nearing the end of the season and they cut several schools a couple of months early. Mine was one of them. One of the main criteria was how many pictures were being sold from that school. Nothing new here, life goes on.
Here’s the rub:
Come to find out, according to the AD, the local “dads” pictures were getting good enough that the other parents were opting to just download their “free” pictures instead of “paying” for ours. It was noted that our pics were of a higher quality, but the “free” pics were good enough for the price. Still, nothing new here, happens all the time.
But, I’ve been helping, training these guys if you will, all season. The school is located in an affluent part of the metroplex, so the dads have a good bit of play money. The last softball game I shot, there were 5 white lenses there, mine was one. These guys are showing up with 40D’s, 1DMkII’s, D300’s, etc. One dad at the last game even had a Canon 300mm f/2.8 on his 40D. Yep, camera on his new monopod, mounted from the camera base. That huge lens dangling off the front totally unsupported. :huh
The point is:
These guys have the equipment and the same field access that I have, they just didn’t have the knowledge to use it right. Unfortunately, I provided a lot of that knowledge for them, enough over the season for them to start producing half-way decent pictures.
Not only did I loose a couple months worth of contract work due to the drop-off in sales, I’m not sure if this school will get picked-up this fall. That would mean a lot of money lost!
I realize that several here do this very thing thinking that it doesn’t hurt anyone. Well, that’s not always the case, is it?
Of course I’ll just move on and get other gigs, but this really torques me.
This Mr. Nice Guy attitude just bit me in the butt!!! --- I think I’m done with it.
-- Rant Over --
Randy
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Comments
When shooting shoulder to shoulder witha a photog from Magnum and one from Black Star and we discussed the film being used that night they almost diesd to find me shooting a concert with Fuji 50 and they were there with 1600 and 3200 iso kodak.....I sent them a few pics and was told mine were fantastic but it was print film and needed to be transparency.....it was long and I stopped..still have tht letter in a file....but thjose guys weren't afraid to impart knowledge..but today it would be a different story I bet....
Went to Cirque du Soliel last Sat....the emcee was rattlin off the rules...no video...no flash..yadda yadda yadda.....now I got in with my KM 7D and 70-210 f2.8 without a prob..nothing on ticket stating no pics.....as he was talking I started to focus on him and all of sudent he turned and pointed directly at me and said NO PHOTOS please.......so I complied...it was a dark show (light wise)..but very entertaining and I Told my sister never to get us seats in the 3rd row again....but up about mid way (M-P) would be best for me:D...she has such tunnel vision she never even saw me raise the camera nor did she see me put the lens on after we were seated....
All in all I truly feel your pain...as I was raised to impart knowledge to those with less...but now it can truly put a bind on your way of life and income which really sucks................................................
sorry to hear about the money...that sucka
:lurk
And I get deeper and deeper
The more I see the more I fall no place to hide
You better take the call I get deeper and deeper...The Fixx
Today's technology based lifestyle begs for immediate feedback and results. Cameras today can provide that, assuming you can actually figure out what to do with it. People can learn more in one month of shooting digital than in a year of shooting film. Some of the basics have been bypassed for this immediate gratification. I mentioned to a group of photographers the other day about the "sunny sixteen rule" Not one knew how to apply it and only a couple had even heard of it, but just didn't know what it was. I mentioned using your hand to meter and shoot manual, never heard of it. All this brings us to our issue at hand here.
So many PWAC's have just started shooting without bothering to learn a few basics. Their work shows that, out of focus, poor exposure (shoot RAW and fix it in post) lousy composition. Look at these forums, how do I...insert everything here? Read the manual, take a class, read some books, search the web. I want to take great sports photos now! Forums like this are great they provide you with information, provided the person giving that information knows what the heck they are talking about. I see a few folks claiming to be experts only to give out inaccurate or bad information. The internet is a great learning tool, provided you back it up with your own experience and actually try some of these things in the field.
How many times have you seen this.
"I have to cover an event tomorrow and am looking for some settings and advice on how to do it. Oh and how do I make money doing it?"
A professional would have planned in advance, secured a contract, had insurance and a whole host of other issues. I can't begin to tell you how many folks I have had approach me and say I give these shots away but really want to start a part time business selling these shots...just to help pay for my equipment. why should a pro bother giving tips that have been learned the hard way and with experience and mistakes only to have that person turn around and start giving work away and taking revenue from the person giving that advice?
If you start out giving your work away what will the client think when you want to start charging? Good luck with that. It hurts all that are trying to run a business. Well I won't pay you I can get them for free from the parent over there with the cool camera with the white lens.
The sports photography market is changing and changing fast in my area and others as well in talking to other photographers. Sorry folks but shooting games and putting them up on a web gallery and waiting for the sales to roll in is almost dead and if it isn't it likely will be soon. Event sales with large groups and on site ordering still works, but how many are willing to make the investment in time, money, equipment and effort to make it work? I no longer shoot on spec, I rely on other techniques to generate revenue. I am branching into other areas of potential revenue. My web site is no longer a core sales vehicle, it is a marketing tool. We have to change in order to stay ahead of the pack and keep the money rolling in.
I have seen many who have started out just giving photos away. Well wait... people tell me I could make money at this. Hey great way to get new equipment. Wow I had no idea it would be this much work for so little in return. Wow I wonder how much I will get for this equipment on e-bay. Within a year or two they are gone.
Keep your head up Randy, continue to explore other avenues of revenue. They are out there waiting for you to step in and take a run at it. PWAC are not going away, it won't do much good to get upset over it. Use that energy to keep ahead of them. I wish you all the best, a pro who knows how to produce in all types of situations on demand and with out fail should always have a way to keep money rolling in.
Canon Gear
This is the way of technology. You either differentiate what you offer substantially enough that people want to buy it over the alternatives or you find a different client base that doesn't have wealthy parents taking shots or you move to different types of photography or leagues that don't have this competitive element.
In my early days of programming, I was one of only a handful of people in the country that knew how to do certain kinds of programming and I could command tens of thousands of dollars for a few days work. Now, kids in high school can do what I was doing back then and a lot more. There are free open source libraries out there that do so much more than I could ever do back then. The technology evolved and I either moved on to newer pastures or got stale. The fact is that it's much easier to produce a technically acceptable photo today than it was even a few years ago and thus many more people can do it with the push of a button. That still doesn't help much with composition or getting the most of their equipment and subjects, but they will (partially accidentally) get some pretty good photos from time to time. That's just a fact of life. The more they learn, the more good ones they'll get.
I can tell the opposite story also. I am one of those dads with a camera who takes shots of the whole sports team and then posts them for free for the parents and grand parents. I started out just taking pictures of my own kids, but then my sister wanted shots of her kids, then my kid's friend's parents wanted shot of theirs and so on. I decided that I liked the challenge of trying to capture other action sequences when my kid wasn't doing something noteworthy. So, I started shooting all the kids. I get immense appreciation from the parents so I've kept doing it. I consider it a hobby of mine and I enjoy practicing and continuing to learn and improve.
One team my kid was on hired a pro to come in and take some "official" shots of the team. I was really interested to see what the pro came up with and maybe learn something from seeing them. They were terrible. The exposures were off, the white balance was off, the lighting was crummy, the cropping wasn't tweaked, AdobeRGB images were put on the web (making the colors look washed out), etc... the images were really not good.
I'm not saying that your images are like this at all, but this pro was not good at all. I was really surprised.
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I just needed to vent a little.
This has been building for some time. I see it in virtually every avenue of sports photography that I shoot. Rodeo is not quite as bad. I guess not many people like being out there getting chased by 2000 lbs of angry bull. <img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/rolleyes1.gif" border="0" alt="" >
That's why I've been gearing up the last 2 months to diversify my offerings, so that I won't have to rely on sports so much.
I've been shooting seriously for <gulp> 30 years myself. (Bought my first Canon F1 in 1981) I love helping others get better at their passion of photography, but I'm just going to have to draw the line.
Things have changed.
Like Dan stated, it used to take years to get good. With digital camera's and the Internet, it doesn't take that much time anymore. I've got to adjust my thinking to incorporate this.
I'll still help people out, but not the person standing on the same field with me waiting to take money out of my pocket.
As the age old saying goes "No Good Deed Goes Unpunished"
Excellent advice & very pertinent points.
Dave
I can see your point.
However, I would like to say that I was out there taking pictures day in and day out of all of my kids sports activities long before any professionals or companies decided to show up and make money.
Now, don't take that the wrong way, I don't have a problem with that. Just know if we end up at the same event, I am there to practice and enjoy the hobby I love.
Randy,
I got started in photography shooting rodeo too, after a bull "retired" me from riding. One way to offset the lost money from teaching "pointers" is to take a lesson from the veteran roughtstock riders, they almost never handed out "free" tips; they had riding clinics; than kept helping thier students.
Even with rodeo in my area girlfriends and wives/mamas are getting good enough shots from the stands with the help of PS. The only differance is we are in the arena risking injuries!
When you get confronted with people asking alot of questions, than scheldule a weekend cllinic. The tips they recieve won't be free, and they will still have to learn through exp. and you will still make the money you need to make a living.
Hold clinics at a teams pratice or at a bull riding school, they are always in small arenas and can be shot through the fence.
like has been said, sports photography is changing and we have to change to stay ahead of the pack
that's great....that is acually why I do it...but I'll shoot other kids too & make alittle change doing it. nobody was doing it when I started to do it.
what you're saying is different than what was talked about.. I love talking to people that are also shooting. but if they said hey I'm gonna take pics of all the kids & give them to the parents for free...well then you're not really just out there shooting your kids & enjoying the hobby that we love.
oh...& I'm not anywhere near being a professional. I love to do it & try to upgrade my equipment with the extra $$
in Randy's case it sucks..but if I had walked up to him & he was rude & didn't answer my ??'s I wouldn't have bought from him then either...sooo
damn if you do , damn if you don't.
Dave
Randy,
Seems to me that a lot of pros make a living on giving instruction
as much as they make selling images.
Perhaps you you put together a seminar and make money in passing
along your knowledge.
Alvin
Fremont, CA
SmugMug Gallery
$1000 a head.
A different avenue for our area as I have been thinking of this also....if a lot of it also for those that ask for instruction ...well give it to them freely with a small charge.....you may ask how is that freely.....well i will freely give lessons but lessons are no longer freely given...........As one much wiser than me told his students back in the late 1890's and early 1900's there must be an exchange for all to benefit and for Karma to be balanced.........
This was the realization of Mikao Usui after giving away his knowledge of Energy Healing in the slums of Kyoto for a year and seeing the total lack ofrespect for the knowledge...so he came to realize if it is paid for it is more respected and also creates a balance with our universe and also karmawise......
That being said, I think a person has as much right to give away his or her pictures as the person has a right to charge for his or her pictures. I did branch out and take a variety of photos and not just of my kids. I posted them on smugmug and if someone wanted one, they could order it. These were my kids teammates and there are a lot who could never afford to buy the professional pictures even if they had been available. You can shoot your kids and practice your hobby at the same time. Example, son played offense, practiced on defense...
I totally agree with not training someone from free when you are there to make money.
Randy:
I am afraid I, too, am one of those dads you have trained. Now I live in Florida, so I doubt that I have taken money from you - but your help last fall when I was working on my football shots was invaluable.
I shoot many of my son's HS games. I have taken football, basketball, soccer and baseball. I have posted many of these shots here, recieved fair feedback and I think I have improved over the last year.
I did set up a Smugmug site for the HS, with my own money, and post several hundred photos a game. I try to take everyone, but it is a hobby and I enjoy it for myself as much. Its my little way of giving something back to the school that has given me and my family so much.
Its a very little school. Only about 600 kids total in grades 1-12. They dont get the pro's taking shots. They get moms sittting in the stands and firing their little Canon P&S's with the flash on under the lights and they hope for the best.
I give them some quality shots. I even get Smumug to print out 8X10's of the best few per game and give them to the parents. We are new here, and it has given me a great way to meet the parents in the school, watch my son, and get right on the field.
The technology is moving so fast, that soon everyone will be able to take quality shots. The pros have better timing, and probably better post processing - but you are right, people are thrilled for any level of shot of their kid.
I bet most posters here on Dgrin are like me, hobbyists who have developed their skill. In all the forums, we have some incredible experts who readily share their knowledge. I have been lucky enough to meet several in person and they couldnt have been kinder.
Randy, sorry its this way, but you helped me as well. I really appreciated it. Your rant is right on, but you are a nice guy - be proud of that first.
Your friend,
Z
Dave
It is exactly this type of thinking that has driven me from shooting on spec. To me there is a difference, you are shooting for fun, I am shooting because I have a business that will only succeed if it generates a profit. No shooting pictures, no profit. No one would want you to not shoot your own children, but if there is a pro shooting the event why would you shoot the rest of the team and then just give them away?
I don't care for the argument that some can't buy professional photos so thats why I give them away. I don't know a sport these days that it doesn't cost money to play. A governing body of your sport can make financial decisions on allotting some of the funding to help some of those less fortunate to receive a few shots of their athlete. How expensive is it to buy a photo? Are you really trying to tell me that someone could not afford to buy two or three photos of their athlete? Most players are not spending $100 on photos. You are trying to tell me they can't afford a $4 or $5 dollar 4x6? There really is no budget for $10 for a couple of photos?
This is why in my first post I said the game is changing, this is why web sales are dead, this is why shooting spec is pointless. I am not complaining about it, I am realistic about it. I am moving into other avenues of generating revenue. But that doesn't mean I am happy about it, or agree with what you are doing, because I sure as heck don't. But I won't change your mind about it because you are not in my shoes and trying to make a business a successful venture.
So I move on and like Randy have become less inclined to help those that are surely not helping me.
Canon Gear
I love this piece of advice.
No matter how fancy one's equipment is, they still have to get that shot. Post processing, experience in composition and reputation will always allow the pro to come out on top.
Amateur photographers have vast resources to learn this new era in photography. Amateur photographers will always compete with you to cut into your income. This is just the reality of the extremely competitiveness of trying to make a living with photography.
Heck, if it was easy, I would go pro and make enough money to make a living but that is not reality. One has to find a niche in their stlye that is appealing to the customers and separates them from the rest of the competition.
One major difference i see these days is the acceptance of low quality pictures as good enough. It took me a long time to accept that people actually accept low quality pictures and do not really care that they are low quality. Look at the popularity of cell phone cameras. Personally, I would never use a cell phone camera because I am not a snap shot person. I am just way too anal about my pictures to even think of using such a device.
Anyway, I can really sympathize with your situation and wish there could be a simple solution but we both know there isn't one. You are just going to have to be a good hustler and come up with pictures that separate you and your photo dads to show why they should pay for your photos while they can get acceptable photos for free:cry
My Photo Blog -->http://dthorpphoto.blogspot.com/
I should add I had permission to be on the field.
I must say that if I am aware that someone has been contracted or given rights to an event, I wouldn't purposly undercut his or her business.
I guess my situation was different, I was doing this for myself and I enjoyed providing the pictures for the kids for free and there was NO one else there taking pictures OR trying to make money off it it.
I will go back to lurking
well jaygirl, no hard feelings. I just visited your website, did not see any baseball photos? I did view your hockey photos, are those the pictures you are selling? May i suggest, before you post that you delete all the oof, the ones where the heads, arms or legs are cut off. You also need to straighten all the photos, and crop correctly. Again no hard feelings, but Randy apparenetly , takes pictures and then sells to the parents. Nothing wrong with that , if the photos are good. If you are selling, you need to work on your technique. Againg no hard feelings, just some constructive words, in the middle of the night.
You mean this isn't the way to shoot action photos????
EOS 7D, Zeiss 50mm f/1.4, EF 24-70mm f/2.8L, EF 135mm f/2L, EF 200mm f/2.8L II, EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM, EF 1.4 Ext II, 430EX, ST-E2, Tamrac Velocity 10X & Expeditioner 7 Bags.
I must say, I'm really glad that I read this. I'm a mom that's been doing low budget weddings on the side with film cameras for years to help out friends and family. I just got a Nikon D40x last summer after the baseball season. I started using it this season to capture some shots of my boy and have been taking pics of the other kids as well. It's a great hobby and the parents are liking the pics. I'm by no means a professional, but many of the parents said they would be willing to pay for them. I'm going to get more practice in this season before I consider it, but luckily there are no pros in our small town that I'll be putting out of business, just one other dad with a big camera. This is still just a hobby for me and I'm not sure I'm ready for a commitment of taking pics every night.
Great discussion and great comments from both sides. This gives me insight into whether I really want to consider this. I really respect the work of professional photographers and aspire to be 1/2 as good. Discussions like these and seeing the work of others makes me realize that I'm a long way from being a pro.
My shots are at texasmom.smugmug.com
He is a great guy. He had lost baseball cards of my son from three seasons ago, refunded the money, and when he found them he gave them to us anyway. We have always supported him.
Thanks for doing what you do!!
Of course, no hard feelings! No hard feelings about what anyone has said here. I just wish I communicated what I was trying to say a bit better therefore more lurking, less talking!
My kids didn't play baseball after the elementary age. I have a few somewhere that I took from my seat at a Texas Rangers game!
The hockey pictures, yes they are bad and no I am not selling them. That was the first hockey game I ever attended and was just trying to take a few of my daughter's boyfriend. In a hurry to upload them all so he could see them.
I want to add something more to this thread and i am sure I will here negative comments but that is what discussion are for.
Jayegirl,
your attitude about taking pictures and giving them away for free or even charging for them is totally in your right. You have every right to shoot whatever you want. No photographer has exclusive rights to shoot any amateur sporting event unless posted clearly where ALL cameras are banned.
This is what makes America great. Competition is what photographers do. If I take better pictures then someone else or charge less then my competition, that is life. Time for you to get better, cheaper or move on.
The original rant from RWELLS,
Teaching someone how to shoot then they have the nerve to undercut your livelihood, well that is much different. Now it is a personal issue and I just think that is morally wrong. I hope you brought this up to those parents and gave them a real guilt lashing.
My Photo Blog -->http://dthorpphoto.blogspot.com/
Without teaching any of you how, what, where or whatever on shooting technique and PP.
I have been asked to be a league photographer for amateur Baseball. I accepted, now, if i sell some photos good. I am a experienced shooter.
I am posting this, because there is a parent , who has voluntered to build there website, he walks around with an older Canon DSLR and i think an 80-200. We really have spoken only once, when he made a comment to me about the quality of my photos and the speed of the cameras i use. I mentioned , I shoot professionally thus the 300mm lens and fast shutter.
He mentioned he also shoots pro. So ok, well He has been sending me some of his shots, form games I have shot also. His photos are ok, well toned and fairly sharp. They are way to wide or long, no action, not straight and not cropped. Why do i bring this up, because if the parents want to buy good photos, they need to buy from someone who gives them finished, straight , toned etc shots. Not from a mom or dad , who think the shot of there son, taken with a 50mm, while the son is in the outfield is a good shot. parents can take good shots, but experienced shooters take excellent shots and know proper technique and processing.
what is the point the parent will only buy rotten food once.
Well Said
My Photo Blog -->http://dthorpphoto.blogspot.com/
Something to think about. While everything you said is true, this statement has some issues I'd like you to at least consider. It isn't fair competition if someone is trying to earn their living vs. a parent giving away photos or undercutting. It's really not - as a parent you dont have to pay the bills off what you make and they do.
So while you are correct - it is within your rights to do whatever you want I would suggest a different approach: take all the photos you want of your child and relatives / close friends. For anyone else - be honest - tell them you don't want to undercut the pro. If they really like your shots you'll be glad to sell them at the same price as the pro.
Again, it's your choice. But how would you like it if the company you work for fired you to pay someone a pitance of your salary who wasn't well qualified for the job. You'd be ticked off. This is kind of the same thing.
So, just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you SHOULD do it. I can guarantee I do a better job shooting sports than someone shooting my niece and nephew's rec league. But I'm not going to undercut him because it's his job and I'm not willing to bid on the entire contract. So while I could give away photos or sell them to parents of my niece & nephew's teams I dont out of respect. Now my sister gets the photos but I respect his right to earn a living. Now, if there is no pro then there's no problem.
At least give it some thought.
:bigbs
What you are saying is that if my neighbor has a nice veggie garden, and keeps me supplied with tomatos, zucchini, watermelon, sugar snaps, etc all summer, I should buy them from the grocery store because the grocery store owner is trying to pay his bills. 'Scuse me but that's a load.
The ONLY reason to pay someone their price for ANY product is that you can't get the SAME PRODUCT for less someplace else. SAME PRODUCT
If I want to sell a product, it has to be better if I want to charge more.
Randy wasn't ranting about that. He was pissed that the time he spent educating the sideline amateurs came back and bit him in the butt. It's happened to me in the architectural photography business. I have former clients who've bought nice Nikons and taken my advice on w/a lenses and tripods, and now take most of their own photos. They still call me when they really need something special, but that's the way it is.
Natural selection is responsible for every living thing that exists.
D3s, D500, D5300, and way more glass than the wife knows about.