But how would you like it if the company you work for fired you to pay someone a pitance of your salary who wasn't well qualified for the job. You'd be ticked off. This is kind of the same thing.
....
Actually, it is happening in the business world outside of photography. It's called outsourcing.
And no matter how much we hate it and much we think it's wrong, not moral, not right, etc. it's perfectly legal for a company to do.
And yes, I worry that my job will be outsourced. I just have to be better than anyone else out there.
As long as there aren't any posted and enforced rules about an exclusive contract in regards photography at an event in which cameras are allowed, I believe that any person has the right to shoot and do whatever they want with the photos -- share them, sell them, keep them on the memory card of the camera, etc. The pro photog should have all the advantage (location, ads, equipment, etc.) and needs to be better than the guy with camera.
In regards to the OP, you should have talk with the people that you taught and explain the situation.
Actually, it is happening in the business world outside of photography. It's called outsourcing.
I'm well aware of outsourcing - I've had two trips to India in the last 3 years because of it. But it's not really entirely the same thing. They're earning a living over there too. They're not charging less because they don't need the money and are just doing it for a hobby.
Believe me they want to make as much money as you and I do - and in fact it is the goal of many Indian contractors I've met to make it to the West and gain a better quality of life.
What you are saying is that if my neighbor has a nice veggie garden, and keeps me supplied with tomatos, zucchini, watermelon, sugar snaps, etc all summer, I should buy them from the grocery store because the grocery store owner is trying to pay his bills. 'Scuse me but that's a load.
No it's a bit different. your local grocery store doesn't lose a good portion of their business because of your neighbors garden. It's more like your neighbor driving truck-loads of free vegetables and setting up shop in the market parking lot (i.e your neighbor cant meet the demand the grocery store is but a parent can easily supply all the free product a team may want - so your scales are off by quite a bit). Again, it's a free country - you don't have to agree with me. It's your right not to respect other photographers.
There comes a time when we have to understand our limitations. Not too long ago someone asked me to shoot their wedding. I refused to do it. One reason was that I didn't need the hassle. I also realized that as good as I may be I'm not in the same class as a photographer who is experienced at shooting weddings.
Its not easy to make one's living at photography today. My hat is off to all of the pros who can pull it off. When someone wants to buy one of my prints (an activity that I don't encourage) I make a point of charging them what a pro would charge. I don't want to become the low cost alternative brand.
Harry http://behret.smugmug.com/NANPA member How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
No it's a bit different. your local grocery store doesn't lose a good portion of their business because of your neighbors garden
Here's the thing though, the photography business is one in which the actual item (some sort of a picture) is very accessible to the average person. The only difference is that the pro photographer is generally able to provide much higher quality images than the average amateur.
To me, this is reminiscent of walmart coming in and causing a great deal of mom & pops to close down, it's also similar to fast food chains taking away business from the fancier restaurants. Is the service and the quality of the merchandise as good now as it was with the more expensive places in the past? No. Why are they (the big chains) so popular? because people are cheap and when it comes to it much of the time people don't care about quality or customer service they just want the cheapest prices they can get.
Like there is still a market for fancier restaurants and mom&pop stores, there is and probably always will be a market for pro photographers, however I think it is clear that the market is changing and how photographers make their living will have to change with the times. It has been happening in every other sector in the business world, it is bound to happen here.
With this in mind, do I think that there is anything wrong with these people taking crappy photos and giving them away? No. Can the parents afford the photos pro photographers get at these games? sure they can, but if these photos don't matter to them all that much, why should they pay for it? The only reason people pay for things is because what they are paying for matters to them, instead of saying, "They are ripping us off" pro photographers should be saying, "How can we make it so that people need these photographs more."
Randy, I feel your frustration. You have a right to feel frustrated.
You have done a real stand up job here on dgrin sharing your experience, explaining how you shoot sporting events, and use your flash on the bottom of your monopod.
For a few fellows, that you have been helping all year, to jump in, and under cut your business, is callow to say the least. Certainly not the way to thank some one.
The only suggestion I have would be to consider altering your business model, shooting fewer, but better and more lucrative engagements. Or offer workshops for a fee, or a combination of both.
We all see the posters all over the web with new, fancy DSLRs asking what settings to use for such and such an engagement. Generally, real pros do not log onto a website for professional advice the night before they plan to shoot a new venue.
Just imagine your orthopedist dropping in on a totally anonymous website and asking for suggestions on how to do tomorrow's total hip. What scalpel to use. What suture to use, How to tie the knots. Not a pretty picture, at all. I think I would get a new surgeon, pronto!!
Unfortunately for Randy, some folks do not care if the product is truly a professional one. Or think they don't care. Or don't know the difference.
Marketing can be used to help educate consumers to appreciate a better product.
I understand parent's desire to photograph their kid's athletic performance, and modern technology can help them to do a better job, but most parents do not have the skills or the equipment to do the job as a real pro. But some parents will pay for first rate equipment.
Pros need to eat and pay bills too. Amateurs will shoot for free.
When these two groups collide, no one is going to go away happy. Marketing is one way to help folks to appreciate a professional level product, but many folks really will settle for amateur work if it is virtually free. Or if they enjoy the challenge themselves.
I'd like to thank each and every one of you who posted.
I'm also pleased that this thread has stayed very civil.
I've had some time to reflect on this topic and have come to some conclusions. If I may use an analogy: Let's say I went to the beach, and thought it was a great place. I decide to build my house right there on the beach. --> (house = sports photography business) Ahhh, life is good.
But due to uncontrollable circumstances (lets say global warming) the ocean level is rising. The waves --> (amateur photographers in this case) keep coming onto the beach, never ceasing and now they are threatening to wash out my foundation and tumble my house into the sea. Now, I've got to make a decision; Do I put up a sea wall, or move my house further away from the waves?
It seems only logical to try and move a good safe distance from the waves --> (away from amateur photographers).
Meaning: I do believe it's time to change my photography specialization. This will take some time to investigate, educate, and gear up for. I just hope during that transition I don't go down the tube.
Also, I do not begrudge helping anybody on this board. I did that of my own free will, and will continue to do so. (although I think y'all are being a little gracious with that term - I've not tutored anyone here, just gave a tip here and there)
I've posted once in the past on this board about my feelings of how giving pictures away is something from a pro's side of the fence, is just plain goofy. On the other hand, the amateur has the right to do so.
I can perfectly understand a parent taking pics of their kids. What I still to this day don't get is what benefit is it to give the pics away to others?
I can only come to one conclusion: Ego - they want so bad for people to tell them how good their pictures are.
Dan stated the progression pretty accurately in this thread. Dad gets camera and starts taking pictures of the kid in sports. Then it progresses to giving the pics away, they like to hear from other parents how good there pictures are getting. (Yep, to allot of folks, free pics are good pics) Then comes the day that they decide to start selling the pics.
The day that someone starts selling their pics for market value is the day that they become a true competitor, and I welcome that. I can stand my ground in a heads-up competition. But, as opposed to several that have posted such, it is NO COMPETITION if the other is giving pics away.
Anyway, lets say things are going well for dad, so well that he finally decides to make the big jump. Dad's going pro!
Guess what? He just crossed the fence and will soon be fussin' and cussin' all the people giving pics away. How in the world can he possibly stay in business?
Full circle folks...
That's what you should be taking from this thread.
What goes around, come around.
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An interesting addition to my initial post:
As I stated, I have been shooting for a national company for a flat fee for each event. So, I'm not directly selling the pics, I'm just contracted to supply them to the company.
This same company is corporate sponsored. They actually PAY THE SCHOOL $2000.00 for the right to take the sports pictures. They also give a percentage of the picture sales back to the school.
OK, now you might can see that these parents that were giving pictures away (because they have a right to) caused a severe drop in picture sales. Their school just got cut-off for this season, and may or may not get picked up next year.
Good going parents! You just cost the school monies to put toward your kids athletic departments
So, since giving away your pics doesn't hurt anyone, I'm guessing your going to pitch in the monies you just cost the school?
Let me see if I can remember the phrase: What goes around, comes around.
I've read this thread with great interest. I'm also one of those dads who takes pictures of his kids playing sports. I do try to get shots of the teammates as well. These are all posted on my smugmug site and are purchased by the other parents on our team at no markup. I just don't feel right making money off of the other parents on the team. What do I get out of it? Nothing except the knowledge that I've given someone a gift that they will enjoy. Ego? I don't get much ego stroking from these shots.
In the three years I've been doing this for soccer, baseball and softball, I've only once meet a pro who was out shooting any of our games. I declined to take any photos of the game that she was shooting.
Randy, what would you propose I do? You bring up some good points, but I fail to see how you would have me respond to them. Should I stop taking photos? Am I required to charge professional rates for my photos even though I am not a pro? I ask this in all seriousness since this question comes up repeatedly from pros who are disgruntled about parents and their camers.
Mitchell,
I can’t answer for Randy – but from my perspective it’s a matter of respect. If there is no pro out there earning a living shooting those teams, it’s all fair game. It would be disingenuous of me to suggest you not share photos just in case a pro decides to show up.
But if you know a pro is covering a certain league and certain teams, in my mind you should respect their ‘turf’. As long as they’re supplying a decent product at a fair price. And it isn’t a game by game thing either. No way is a pro going to shoot every game a team plays. So if the parents know you’re going to give away free photos from 9 out of 11 games and the pro is going to shoot 2, then you’re still encroaching on his turf.
No reason why you shouldn’t take photos of your own children. But as a matter of respect for the pro who can’t compete with a free product, how difficult is it to really keep yourself from giving away the product.
This is especially true for members of this and other forums who benefit from the advice and input from pros and more experienced shooters trying to earn a profit off their photography. Because what will happen is they’ll stop sharing. Everyone will lose out on the knowledge and experience they have because that advice and help is being turned against them.
As Randy said, I have no issue stacking my work up against any other person trying to run a business. But action sports photos are a luxury item in most cases. And unless the photos are horrible, enough parents will take free photos any day over pro quality photos for sports work. Some will still value the pro work but not enough to make it worth while.
So, if you’ve learned anything from those who post on these forums with regards to sports shooting the least you can do is respect their right to try and run their business. If you want to compete, compete on equal footing – as a business. Otherwise the first thing that will happen is those who take time to share will become too jaded and stop sharing (something that is already VERY prevalent in sports shooting) then those people will move on to some other type of photography. No reason you cant enjoy your hobby AND respect their turf – again, assuming there is an established pro with turf to protect.
At the risk of sounding a bit abrasive (which I'm not trying to do). I don't think you should stop taking any of the pictures that you take. Even if there's a pro there. There's no "turf" when your shooting a public event. The turf is where you market and sell your pictures basically at cost just for beer money or to make yourself live out your secret dream of wanting to be a photographer.
As you (any novice) evolve as a photographer, Randy (and any other person that shoots for a living) should be evolving at twice the speed as you.
Most of us have seen we are mainly bound by our creative ability w/ photography. There are allot of amazing things you can do w/ a camera (not even including post). So instead of a pro shooter focusing on what the enthusiast or part time shooter is doing, they should be focusing on what they should be doing next. When your at the head of the pack, you don't look to see who's in second place, you see where your going next.
This isn't a slam on Randy or anyone that shoots pro. I have immense respect due to the advent of monetarily cheap cameras. I'm sure it's tough when a dad that goes out and shoots w/ a D3 or something ridiculous that a regular real photographer couldn't even imagine shooting with. But that's where skill comes in.
I think Randy is doing the right thing by finding a new niche. There are parents that are fanatics about their kids and sports. Those parents are willing to pay top dollar for some crazy shots (no more soccer ball on the knee while kneeling poses ). I already know Randy knows a ton about strobes, so taking it to the next level will be intuitive for him. This is where he'll really leave the hobbyist in the dust. Lighting can be tamed but not easily mastered.
So many opinions from so many levels of photographers.
bottom line is that no matter what we all think, people are going to do what they want and this topic on this forum will not stop it.
Times are a changing and low quality pics are acceptable for most people. If they want quality, they will have to pay for it. Eventually sports photographers in amateur leagues will die out due to not enough income to make it worth it. No matter how hard we fight it, this is the direction of the future.
We are being outsourced by over zealous parents that want recognition for their pictures. Nothing we can do about that unles you want to go through total frustration everytime you got out and shoot.
The only real solution I can see is to have a flat fee for a sporting event or get paid upfront from individual parents. Prints are just not that popular any more and trying to make an income from them is futile:cry.
Very interesting thread. I'm another dad who started with taking pictures of my kids, and have moved on from there. For parents on my teams I charge my cost + $.01 for prints and allow for free downloads. For other teams I do I charge higher rates.
...
I can perfectly understand a parent taking pics of their kids. What I still to this day don't get is what benefit is it to give the pics away to others?
The benefit for me is not about recognition or praise. It's all about being a part of the team. The parents who are coaches freely give their time, and other parents help out with different things. This is my way of giving back to the team.
I will say that I don't post photos for all of the teams my kids are on. The ones with the great coaches are way more likely to get photos. My son's baseball team last season had five dads coaching - all made every practice and game. I not only offered photos but created a DVD of the season and gave a copy to each family.
I will also say that there aren't any pros taking pictures at these games. A few weekends ago my daughter played in a basketball tournament and a "pro" was talking photos of one of their games. This is the first time I've encountered this situation. Almost three weeks later the photos are still not posted on his site. He's charging $20 for an 8x10. I'm not going to feel bad if I decide to post my photos from that game for her team.
If there were pros at the normal league games for any of these sports I would think about changing this practice.
Very interesting thread. I'm another dad who started with taking pictures of my kids, and have moved on from there. For parents on my teams I charge my cost + $.01 for prints and allow for free downloads. For other teams I do I charge higher rates.
The benefit for me is not about recognition or praise. It's all about being a part of the team. The parents who are coaches freely give their time, and other parents help out with different things. This is my way of giving back to the team.
Mike,
It's refreshing for me to see someone who handles this exactly the way I do.
What nobody has mentioned is that sites like smugmug are partially responsible for this problem. I take exception to the comment that parents don't want quality photographs. I'm no pro, but my sports shots are pretty darn good. The comment I hear most from parents is that they cannot believe the quality of the printing from smugmug. This site has given access to professional grade processing coupled with an easy interface for storage and viewing. No amateur photographer had anything like this in the past.
I was involved with my daughters' sports endeavours from the time they were five years old 'till one played D1 NCAA field hockey. Every now and then there'd be a photographer from the newspaper at a club or high school game. More ofter it was just us parents taking the photos. Heck even some of mine made it into the local paper.
Folks, the fact is the parents were there taking photos first. Pros and semi-pros are a relatively recent phenomenon at youth games and High School games (around these parts anyway.)
I know architectural photography, and can make pretty fair money from it. I know soccer and field hockey well enough to be able to photograph it fairly well, but have never thought to try to charge for it. THE PARENTS WERE THERE FIRST with their point-and-shoots. Now the price of DSLRs has dropped to the point that the soccer mom has one on the sideline, and the photos she gets are "good enough for her." Are we going to blame Nikon and Canon?
This is not about "respecting the other photographer" (and whoever it was that aimed that cheap shot at me a couple pages ago did indeed lose my respect). It's about respecting the realities of the marketplace. For a little while, because of digital technology, there was a nice niche market for an accomplished sports photographer to make some money shooting athletic contests other than big time sports. That time may be nearly over.
John :
Natural selection is responsible for every living thing that exists.
D3s, D500, D5300, and way more glass than the wife knows about.
I make my money freelancing and put my extra pictures up for purchase.
Something to consider in regards to pros shooting or not shooting is the amount of parents shooting their kids games and giving pictures away to other parents. I have noticed I get fewer pictures purchased from games I see parents shooting the games. I don't market myself aggressively so it's not a "scientific" absolute.
I do know if I were doing it without freelancing, I would not shoot those games with all the parents on the sidelines unless I got paid up front. I do think parents who photograph their kids and then give away pictures for free to other parents DO affect pros in an indirect way by discouraging them to cover the games.
This isn't to say parents who do this are evil, it's just another consequence. It's the nature of the beast in the digital age. I do think things will even out and we are entering into unchartered waters. Pros are going to have to become more specialized. It might mean finding the few clients who know and demand quality and who will pay for it.
Randy, what would you propose I do? You bring up some good points, but I fail to see how you would have me respond to them. Should I stop taking photos? Am I required to charge professional rates for my photos even though I am not a pro? I ask this in all seriousness since this question comes up repeatedly from pros who are disgruntled about parents and their cameras.
Hey Mitch,
Thanks for posting a thought out message.
Do you remember the movie (I can't recall the name) where a man opens the window and screams out at the top of his lungs "I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore"?
What really happens? No one outside gives a rats patutie about this madman screaming. So what's the point? The point is, it helps the screamer get off his butt and make some decisions/changes.
First: My rant was to really help me, to make me rethink my business model and my career.
Second: I wanted to share some knowledge about how things really are out in the real world for the working pro. There's no way to know these things unless you either experience it for yourself, or someone shares that with you.
If upon knowing some of these things, a person decides to ignore their part in the issue, so be it. That's a personal choice. But how can anyone expect people to change their actions about a problem (that they are contributing to) if they are not fully aware of it? I think that's unrealistic.
I'm sharing some of that information with everyone.
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(Smokers: Don't get your tobacco wadded into a knot. - this is to illustrate a point)
Everyone sees the public problems created by smokers. Specifically, cigarette butts thrown all over earth. It's ugly, aggravating and cost lots of money to clean-up. Why can't the smokers simply be responsible for their actions and dispose of the cigarette butts correctly? Then the problem wouldn't exist.
General Public:Throwing trash on the ground, or blowing out of the back of a truck, etc. These are huge, costly problems and could be completely avoided by each person simply taking responsibility for their part in the problem.
_________________________________________________________
The point of these statements:
Yes, I'm directly affected by parents giving away pictures, but YOU ARE TOO!!! You just don't realize it yet.
When all the pro's leave youth to prep sports due to this issue, it will be the reign of the amateur photographer.
Whats the big deal with that?
(In no particular order)
Even if there is a single person left that wants to buy a professional level photo, there won't be any available
When the pro's leave and setup shop in other areas of photography, who's going to take all the Team & Individual pictures?
Amateurs are just that. They don't do photography full time. So who's going to be at all those events that aren't convenient for the parent to "cover"?
When amateurs are pressed to provide full coverage, all season, etc, it magically stops being so fun - so they aren't going to do it
And here's the BIG ONE - I want to make sure you understand this:
ANYONE who does someday want to try and take sports pictures for a living, it ain't gonna happen! There will be no market for "paid for pictures" in the not so distant future in youth sports thanks to parents giving away photos. Without that foothold into the professional market, how are you going to get higher up, to shoot the upper level sports? Is a person going to say "I've shot my kids teams pictures and gave all the pictures away, now please give me field credentials to your professional event."?
Ain't gonna' happen
Did the pro's cause this problem? No they did not. They have been screaming about it for a long time. The parents giving pictures away own this issue, it's by their actions.
Mitch,
I can't tell you what to do, heck, I have a hard enough time trying to do what I think I need to do in life
I can simply try and let you know what I see happening, and what I believe the problem source to be.
It's fully up to you to decide what you think your role in this problem is and what you intend to do about it.
Let your conscience be your guide
Good luck with your decision. It appears that your truly want to understand the issue so that you can make an educated decision as to what to do.
If people who are giving pictures away want to put on blinders and deny that they are a part of this issue, again that's their prerogative. I've given what I feel is accurate information.
YMMV
Again, thanks for your post
Almost forgot: I'm a big fan of your garage portraits.
The confessions of a PWAC..
I am a PWAC, I don't like those acronyms at all but I will say I am that.
I have two daughters that dance competitively and wanted to get pictures of them doing it. The point and shoot cameras did nothing for me and really I didn't understand them. I could never get an action shot and it was annoying as heck to me.
I got a Canon Rebel XT and a 150 dollar 300 lense. Starting working on it reading any site I could and no I never posted questions like I am doing this in the AM what do I need. I read alot of great peoples responses to those and learned from them.
I still never got past the auto "ICON" settings on the camera and I really paid for it when it mattered. I got lucky early on a great stage at a competition with lots of light and a great background. I thought I was the bomb. I only took one set pictures because I did not know that the competition did not allow pictures. The door said no Flash Photography, in Orlando that means turn of the flash. I did.. The Director at the studio said don't get us in trouble. I stopped..
A year later at a Competion I realized my $150 dollar 300 lense would not get it in low light. My pictures where blurred and I couldn't figure out why. I had the camera on the "Action" setting and from the back of the theater with light only on the stage and a pink background it was a mess.
I started reading and working and realized I needed an upgrade. I bought one of those "White Lenses" that everyone seems to hate parents having. I took pictures in every low light setting I could. Indoor hockey games, Birthday Parties outside, Just to work on it. I learned where I could and took lots more. I gave my friends and families some of the pictures I took and they enjoyed them. I was not trying to make money I was trying to learn how to take pictures of my kids.
The next big Competition came along and the big "White Lense" (Canon 70-200mm) 2.8L non IS. I did good not thinking great but the kids and parents where really happy with the pictures. They asked how much they where and I sold them a CD of their kids numbers. I wasn't particularly happy with them, I used some of the Av/Tv settings but it did not click to me yet. I was getting there but was not all the way there with what caused what.
I did some local Charity events and walks for some friends groups and gave the pictures to use for their local groups. They appreciated my time and effort, I worked really hard to get them good shots to promote their causes.
This past year I wanted to really get better and work a lot on my photography. I could not take dance photos all the time which was my main goal to capture my daughters on "Digital Film" for family to see and remember.
I asked the local HS Athletic Director if I could take pictures at the football games for my own use the get better. I explained who I was and what I was trying to do. He said I could not shoot Varsity football however, I could shoot all the JV and Freshman games I wanted. I told him I was not there to sell photos just get better at Low Light Action Pictures. Which remarkably Indoor Dance Competitions and Football at night are remarkably similar. I got to watch some Football instead of dance and learn to take pictures. What an awesome way to learn.
I was on the side lines, some of the boys where friends of my neighbors and they where excited to have anyone take pictures. Noone was on the sidelines for JV and Freshman. They posted my pics on their Myspace and they had a blast. I looked at sportsshooter.com for ideas and other sites of what I should doing and kept digging so to speak. The yearbook/hired photog showed up the last games of the season for JV/Freshman when some of the best players had been hurt. Parents where excited to have any pictures of their kids. I posted them on a Picasa Gallery for them to enjoy. Some of my neighbors parents where really excited. They where horrible at the beginning. I went through one by one and checked settings and learned. I even took Morning Flag football for my Nephew and learned.
The only way to get better at anything is repition, I took thousands of pictures and the I improved because of that.
This past year I decided to Join SmugMug and get a professional account to try and sell some photos for parents. They are technically challenged don't know how to upload to Walgreen's even when they have the images. Not all print kiosks take DVD's of pictures. They just want to buy the prints and have them shipped. They have incredible prints, I get unlimited space and can customize. I bought the cow so to speak.
This last competition, I had a blast. The professional photographer there even had the competition people adjust the light, I knew exactly what to do and kept digging on getting good shots. I think I did great, I missed a few leaps and turns as everyone does but I got more, cleaner shots and was not phased by things that would have bother me bigtime in the past.
I have rambled on and told everyone why I do what I do. I make a little money, and enjoy the kids hard work and they can show their friends what they do on my galleries or purchase some CD's of their numbers or prints from SmugMug.
My job is a job that brings in a paycheck, I am not trying to take anyones paycheck. But I have worked hard trying to take pictures at events with most of the time noone taking photos. The Dance competitions I took photos there was a Pro and I was allowed as where all parents. The same pro over the years has shot himself in the foot by his attitude and lack of pictures. Parents would often buy from me and him all the time.
I guess the pro verses amateur situation must be more acute in Texas than it is up here north of the border. I'm a granddad who has become the club photog for our hockey and soccer teams. And yes I do use one of those white lens. We use a pro for our annual club team and individual pics and I fill in the action shots throughout the year. The only other time I run into a pro is at a tournament. I shoot only our team members and he shoots the entire participants in the tourney. He is set up to provide immediate 8X10 pics for $20. and I have to wait to see if I have any acceptable shots until I get them on the computer. I'm sure that he shoots the plays while I try and get pics of the less dominate players. Many single parents cannot afford to pay for the action shots that the pro offers and I do give away 4X6 prints to our parents.I make a point of staying out of the pros way as he is trying to make a living and to me it is a hobby. Some of our parents purchase the pro pics and some wait to see if I have anything worthwhile. It seems to be working out fine.
Not to mention, once parents start buying cameras like this (watch the video, it's worth the 2 minutes). SportShooters for local events will be in even more trouble.
I'm confident that Randy and any other photographer that's worth their salt will step up to the challenge and raise the bar by catering to the people that are willing to pay for professional shots though.
If you haven't noticed all the pro photographers doing workshops, this should tell you something about the photography market IMHO. If they are having to teach their knowledge to earn a living and not out taking photos then I have to think there is a reason.
I think the realization that some parents volunteer their time and photography skill to the team, just as some parents volunteer their time to coach, etc. The difference being that by the coaches volunteering they aren't taking income from someone else. Its reality and therefore I am hesitant to even try much sports action that I am not first paid for. I do shoot college sports, where access is the issue, so far less competition on the sideline, and a large number of fans that want prints.
The real winners in this is the camera manufactors, and not the photographers. With more competition in the sports action area, then the less pros will venture into it.
"A photo is like a hamburger. You can get one from McDonalds for $1, one from Chili's for $5, or one from Ruth's Chris for $15. You usually get what you pay for, but don't expect a Ruth's Chris burger at a McDonalds price, if you want that, go cook it yourself." - me
If people who are giving pictures away want to put on blinders and deny that they are a part of this issue, again that's their prerogative. I've given what I feel is accurate information.
I have stayed out of this dialogue, Randy, because I am a poster child for everything that you are complaining about, including the fact that you, personally, have helped me out enormously. And the most important fact is that you are a generous, sharing, friendly and knowledgeable guy.
Your issues are legitimate and I have gotten a different perspective on them in the last few weeks of posting here (some pain involved). But there's still at least one last thing that hasn't been said, and it needs to be:
I have a huge problem with anyone -- whether it be a local youth sports league, a board of education or a university - profiting from the sale of "exclusive" photography rights with respect to amateur sports. I have followed my own kids' sports from age 4 into NCAA Division I, and none of their participation has been "free". I pay taxes that enable my kids to play in town rec leagues; fees to play in youth sports leagues; and tuition that I choke on to play in college. And still, somebody wants to make images of those sports proprietary to some random guy? IMO it's unethical for the governing body even to offer it; NOT unethical for you or any pro to take it if offered. But having paid my taxes, my fees and my tuition, I don't really want to be told what I can or cannot do with my images of my kid or my fellow parents' kids.
Just so you don't think we are completely sideways on this, parents asked me to take a team pic after an upcoming game (college level). I told them that I would not do it if the pro had been there shooting the game and they should ask him and pay him for the image. Nevertheless, I will shoot the game from the stands (as I have been doing) and do what I want to with the images (as I have been doing).
You have already identified that the business model is flawed and will only become more flawed going forward, and if you choose to be less generous with your advice, whether on-line or on-field, that's our loss.
I do appreciate your comments. I just gave you some information and helped with your confidence. You did the rest
I'm proud for you for how much your photography has improved. You've done good on that.
On the other:
My initial post (rant) was to vent. It then morphed into the "giving away pics" portion of the issue. I won't beat on that, I've pretty much covered that.
What I do feel is being completely missed/ignored by the folks who are practicing the pic giveaway is what I posted in response to Mitch's post.
Giving away pictures is not only ruining the current business opportunity for youth sports, it's washing away a very viable path into professional photography, or even just to make some pocket change to buy more equipment.
As has been posted, for a lot of people, taking your kids pics is the first step. Starting to sell them is the next. If the stars align at the right time for a person, there may be enough work to actually make a living at photography if so inclined.
When that path is gone, it's gone.
It might not affect you personally due to your not wanting to go pro, but what about all those other amateur photographers? They aren't going to have a prayer, at least not from this path.
What is hugely ironic, is they are cutting off their own noses.
A person can't just decide one day that he/she is good enough to go pro, then jump into the big leagues. It doesn't work that way.
This is a concern I have for all those that hope to some day make a living taking sports pictures. Yes, this issue affects me presently, but it obviously isn't a completely self-centered one. I've already made that jump (full time photographer) and have been doing OK and have been published many times. My name is out there. Besides, I'm a rodeo photographer by trade.
But alas, I fear the tide of change is swelling and there is no holding it back. I've got to do some changing myself or drown.
I think the realization that some parents volunteer their time and photography skill to the team, just as some parents volunteer their time to coach, etc. The difference being that by the coaches volunteering they aren't taking income from someone else. Its reality and therefore I am hesitant to even try much sports action that I am not first paid for. I do shoot college sports, where access is the issue, so far less competition on the sideline, and a large number of fans that want prints.
I've been on the sideline in this thread so far, but reading with interest. I confess. I am a PWAC and I give away free pictures. Year 'round soccer of several age groups, spring softball, little league, school events, boy scout events, girl scout events, etc... I have a whole Smugmug account dedicated just to the event pictures that I give away.
I've always thought of what I do exactly as bham said. I volunteer my time for the benefit of the other families on the team/organization. It's the same sort of team benefit as an assistant coach who comes to some practices to help with the practice. I think I'm doing a kind thing for both the kids and their families. I do it because it's fun and because it's rewarding and because I like it when people enjoy the pictures. I put a ton of time into this endeavor because I catalog every keeper image by player name and organize the season's photos into a gallery for each player and several other themed galleries.
In four years, I've only ever seen a pro once (at a soccer tournament with lots of teams). I never saw him shoot my daughter's team. From time to time teams will hire pros to shoot official team portraits. Since I don't usually do those kind of shots, there's never been a conflict.
On the other hand, the school just had their annual talent show (a two hour, well orchestrated event in a theatre). The school hires a videographer to video the whole event and they "hire" me to do the still photographs. The difference. The videographer charges the school money and the parents have to pay to get a DVD. I don't charge anyone for the photos I take. I'm sure if there was a parent who could/would do a top notch job on the video, they'd go that way too. I wouldn't be surprised if that happens in the next few years with the explosion of home video.
I don't know if I'm actually adding any value to this thread other than trying to explain why we do what we do and that it has nothing to do with wanting to hurt a pro.
I think the old verbage of "Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for Free" sorta applies here...
In my experiences... from events I've shot at... people just want PICTURES... if they can get bad ones or OK ones for free.... that's good enough... but take those bad/ok free pics away and they WILL buy the GOOD ones from the pros...
If a pro takes a truely awesome pic of them then they will sometimes buy it even with the free ones... but how often does a pro get that AWESOME shot EVERY time they shoot a pic??? So the quality of the pictures are great.... but not all of them are must-have's. So there really is no way to compete with the amature on the side giving pics away for fee or even cheap even with their bad pics... the people just want PICTURES in general...
And if a pro takes bad pics... and their pics are the only ones to choose from.. they WILL buy those pics. But how many amatures on the side lines take a look at a pro's work first before giving pics away or selling them to see if their work is bad in the first place? But just because a pro isn't very good... doesn't mean it's OK to steal their bread and butter either... just saying...
I went to a horse show this weekend to shoot some pics of a friend of mine who just got a new horse and this was their first show together. I shot her and several other people I knew... I have NO idea if there was a pro photog there or not simply bc there were white lenses a dime a dozen at that show... every time I turned around there was someone else walking by that had a big fancy lens....
I don't really feel threatened much by the amatures taking pics at horse shows I work... this is mostly bc equestrians are picky with what they like. Even other pros that try to shoot it don't do too well bc they don't know what to shoot. Now other equestrians on the sides with a camera... I watch them to see if what they are doing will work out for them or not. If they are spot on with their shots... then I get a little worried about my bottom line... but if all they are shooting is the horse's butt going over the fence instead of a front or side shot... then I carry on like they aren't even there.
One show I was shooting another pro showed up. (I was the official photog for this weekend so I was a little baffled) Started shooting right next to me too.... I started up a conversation with the guy to try to find out what his intentions were. He had never shot a horse show before and was friends with someone at the show. I politely asked him not to give away any of his pictures as I was trying to make a living and I already didn't make much off of those shows. He said he had no intentions of giving them away and he understood. I think that, perhaps, this might be a good way to handle this problem. If you see someone with a big fancy lens, talk to them... find out what they are doing. Be nice... and just ask them to help you make a living by not giving pics away for free/cheap. Explain it's hard to make a living and you need all the sales you can get. I think most people will understand if you explain the situation to them. I think it's when we get a little bent out of shape and rude that people will put up a wall and give things away out of spite.
I think a lot of people that are giving these pics away don't realize the consequences of their actions either. They may not even realize that it puts us photogs out of business and then there won't be anymore photogs are local events... and then they wonder why no one is photographing the small events... they think we are too stuck up to care about the little events... but in reality it is bc we were driven away by lack of business.
Maybe we (collective group of pro photographers) should start up a educational campagne to educate the public on why not to give pics away... or why you should keep buying from the pros even if you get a couple OK free shots from a friend... that is if they want to keep us at their events... (not really a reality.... mostly wishful thinking)
I think you have a sensible approach. The frustrating thing is - even within this thread there have been a number of people that basically are saying "tough. Sorry what I'm doing can hurt your business but thats not my problem".
I think where it's especially an issue is with parents. Without delving into and rehashing all the reasons - there are a lot more parents at events taking photos and they give them away.
I was asked to shoot a CYO basketball game by one such parent - she has a Nikon D70 and decent lenses but not 2.8 or primes. She takes photos at all her kids sporting events and gives them away. She wanted me for the basketball because she couldn't get any that were acceptable. But outdoor sports her intent was to keep giving the photos away. Paying for them was a "last resort". So, she bought a good amount from me but the other parents bought none. They were happy with the free poor shots and didn't want to pay anything. Unfortunately, as has been my way, I provided advice to this mom on what equipment would give her better basketball shots. She's planning on buying it now.
So she represents the type of parent that is at least willing to pay for the shots. But most parents, as you mentioned are not when they can get anything for free.
I talked with her enough that if I asked her not to give the photos away she would say "no way" just like the people here are saying.
I understand that now. So, knowing what I know now, helping people out is really hurting me in the long run. If she wanted to charge I know I'd do better because my product is better. But she doesn't - she just wants to be the provider of photos like so many here.
It is what it is. Unfortunately I now understand why it was like pulling teeth to get advice from pros. I unfortunately see what they meant. My helping these people out just harms us all.
Something to think about. While everything you said is true, this statement has some issues I'd like you to at least consider. It isn't fair competition if someone is trying to earn their living vs. a parent giving away photos or undercutting. It's really not - as a parent you dont have to pay the bills off what you make and they do.
So while you are correct - it is within your rights to do whatever you want I would suggest a different approach: take all the photos you want of your child and relatives / close friends. For anyone else - be honest - tell them you don't want to undercut the pro. If they really like your shots you'll be glad to sell them at the same price as the pro.
Again, it's your choice. But how would you like it if the company you work for fired you to pay someone a pitance of your salary who wasn't well qualified for the job. You'd be ticked off. This is kind of the same thing.
So, just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you SHOULD do it. I can guarantee I do a better job shooting sports than someone shooting my niece and nephew's rec league. But I'm not going to undercut him because it's his job and I'm not willing to bid on the entire contract. So while I could give away photos or sell them to parents of my niece & nephew's teams I dont out of respect. Now my sister gets the photos but I respect his right to earn a living. Now, if there is no pro then there's no problem.
At least give it some thought.
Can I be blunt? If you are trying to make a living by selling product for a professional-class fee in a market saturated with free product that is good enough to be in demand, it is you who needs to give things some thought. We're talking kids and silly games and coffee table snapshots here, not the Super Bowl and the Sports Illustrated cover. The idea that the kids' parents should think twice before sharing photos of their kids playing a game is laughable.
Can I be blunt? If you are trying to make a living by selling product for a professional-class fee in a market saturated with free product that is good enough to be in demand, it is you who needs to give things some thought. We're talking kids and silly games and coffee table snapshots here, not the Super Bowl and the Sports Illustrated cover. The idea that the kids' parents should think twice before sharing photos of their kids playing a game is laughable.
I may have worded it differently. But it's how I feel as well.
You can still be a pro in this market. But if your worried about a PWIC shots versus yours. You need to rethink how you take pictures in the first place.
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And no matter how much we hate it and much we think it's wrong, not moral, not right, etc. it's perfectly legal for a company to do.
And yes, I worry that my job will be outsourced. I just have to be better than anyone else out there.
As long as there aren't any posted and enforced rules about an exclusive contract in regards photography at an event in which cameras are allowed, I believe that any person has the right to shoot and do whatever they want with the photos -- share them, sell them, keep them on the memory card of the camera, etc. The pro photog should have all the advantage (location, ads, equipment, etc.) and needs to be better than the guy with camera.
In regards to the OP, you should have talk with the people that you taught and explain the situation.
I'm well aware of outsourcing - I've had two trips to India in the last 3 years because of it. But it's not really entirely the same thing. They're earning a living over there too. They're not charging less because they don't need the money and are just doing it for a hobby.
Believe me they want to make as much money as you and I do - and in fact it is the goal of many Indian contractors I've met to make it to the West and gain a better quality of life.
No it's a bit different. your local grocery store doesn't lose a good portion of their business because of your neighbors garden. It's more like your neighbor driving truck-loads of free vegetables and setting up shop in the market parking lot (i.e your neighbor cant meet the demand the grocery store is but a parent can easily supply all the free product a team may want - so your scales are off by quite a bit). Again, it's a free country - you don't have to agree with me. It's your right not to respect other photographers.
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Its not easy to make one's living at photography today. My hat is off to all of the pros who can pull it off. When someone wants to buy one of my prints (an activity that I don't encourage) I make a point of charging them what a pro would charge. I don't want to become the low cost alternative brand.
http://behret.smugmug.com/ NANPA member
How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
To me, this is reminiscent of walmart coming in and causing a great deal of mom & pops to close down, it's also similar to fast food chains taking away business from the fancier restaurants. Is the service and the quality of the merchandise as good now as it was with the more expensive places in the past? No. Why are they (the big chains) so popular? because people are cheap and when it comes to it much of the time people don't care about quality or customer service they just want the cheapest prices they can get.
Like there is still a market for fancier restaurants and mom&pop stores, there is and probably always will be a market for pro photographers, however I think it is clear that the market is changing and how photographers make their living will have to change with the times. It has been happening in every other sector in the business world, it is bound to happen here.
With this in mind, do I think that there is anything wrong with these people taking crappy photos and giving them away? No. Can the parents afford the photos pro photographers get at these games? sure they can, but if these photos don't matter to them all that much, why should they pay for it? The only reason people pay for things is because what they are paying for matters to them, instead of saying, "They are ripping us off" pro photographers should be saying, "How can we make it so that people need these photographs more."
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You have done a real stand up job here on dgrin sharing your experience, explaining how you shoot sporting events, and use your flash on the bottom of your monopod.
For a few fellows, that you have been helping all year, to jump in, and under cut your business, is callow to say the least. Certainly not the way to thank some one.
The only suggestion I have would be to consider altering your business model, shooting fewer, but better and more lucrative engagements. Or offer workshops for a fee, or a combination of both.
We all see the posters all over the web with new, fancy DSLRs asking what settings to use for such and such an engagement. Generally, real pros do not log onto a website for professional advice the night before they plan to shoot a new venue.
Just imagine your orthopedist dropping in on a totally anonymous website and asking for suggestions on how to do tomorrow's total hip. What scalpel to use. What suture to use, How to tie the knots. Not a pretty picture, at all. I think I would get a new surgeon, pronto!!
Unfortunately for Randy, some folks do not care if the product is truly a professional one. Or think they don't care. Or don't know the difference.
Marketing can be used to help educate consumers to appreciate a better product.
I understand parent's desire to photograph their kid's athletic performance, and modern technology can help them to do a better job, but most parents do not have the skills or the equipment to do the job as a real pro. But some parents will pay for first rate equipment.
Pros need to eat and pay bills too. Amateurs will shoot for free.
When these two groups collide, no one is going to go away happy. Marketing is one way to help folks to appreciate a professional level product, but many folks really will settle for amateur work if it is virtually free. Or if they enjoy the challenge themselves.
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I'd like to thank each and every one of you who posted.
I'm also pleased that this thread has stayed very civil.
I've had some time to reflect on this topic and have come to some conclusions. If I may use an analogy: Let's say I went to the beach, and thought it was a great place. I decide to build my house right there on the beach. --> (house = sports photography business) Ahhh, life is good.
But due to uncontrollable circumstances (lets say global warming) the ocean level is rising. The waves --> (amateur photographers in this case) keep coming onto the beach, never ceasing and now they are threatening to wash out my foundation and tumble my house into the sea. Now, I've got to make a decision; Do I put up a sea wall, or move my house further away from the waves?
It seems only logical to try and move a good safe distance from the waves --> (away from amateur photographers).
Meaning: I do believe it's time to change my photography specialization. This will take some time to investigate, educate, and gear up for. I just hope during that transition I don't go down the tube.
Also, I do not begrudge helping anybody on this board. I did that of my own free will, and will continue to do so. (although I think y'all are being a little gracious with that term - I've not tutored anyone here, just gave a tip here and there)
I've posted once in the past on this board about my feelings of how giving pictures away is something from a pro's side of the fence, is just plain goofy. On the other hand, the amateur has the right to do so.
I can perfectly understand a parent taking pics of their kids. What I still to this day don't get is what benefit is it to give the pics away to others?
I can only come to one conclusion: Ego - they want so bad for people to tell them how good their pictures are.
Dan stated the progression pretty accurately in this thread. Dad gets camera and starts taking pictures of the kid in sports. Then it progresses to giving the pics away, they like to hear from other parents how good there pictures are getting. (Yep, to allot of folks, free pics are good pics) Then comes the day that they decide to start selling the pics.
The day that someone starts selling their pics for market value is the day that they become a true competitor, and I welcome that. I can stand my ground in a heads-up competition. But, as opposed to several that have posted such, it is NO COMPETITION if the other is giving pics away.
Anyway, lets say things are going well for dad, so well that he finally decides to make the big jump. Dad's going pro!
Guess what? He just crossed the fence and will soon be fussin' and cussin' all the people giving pics away. How in the world can he possibly stay in business?
Full circle folks...
That's what you should be taking from this thread.
What goes around, come around.
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An interesting addition to my initial post:
As I stated, I have been shooting for a national company for a flat fee for each event. So, I'm not directly selling the pics, I'm just contracted to supply them to the company.
This same company is corporate sponsored. They actually PAY THE SCHOOL $2000.00 for the right to take the sports pictures. They also give a percentage of the picture sales back to the school.
OK, now you might can see that these parents that were giving pictures away (because they have a right to) caused a severe drop in picture sales. Their school just got cut-off for this season, and may or may not get picked up next year.
Good going parents! You just cost the school monies to put toward your kids athletic departments
So, since giving away your pics doesn't hurt anyone, I'm guessing your going to pitch in the monies you just cost the school?
Let me see if I can remember the phrase:
What goes around, comes around.
Whew, I think I might have about said it all...
Again, thanks for everyone's input.
Very nice way to round out this thread.
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In the three years I've been doing this for soccer, baseball and softball, I've only once meet a pro who was out shooting any of our games. I declined to take any photos of the game that she was shooting.
Randy, what would you propose I do? You bring up some good points, but I fail to see how you would have me respond to them. Should I stop taking photos? Am I required to charge professional rates for my photos even though I am not a pro? I ask this in all seriousness since this question comes up repeatedly from pros who are disgruntled about parents and their camers.
http://clearwaterphotography.smugmug.com/
I can’t answer for Randy – but from my perspective it’s a matter of respect. If there is no pro out there earning a living shooting those teams, it’s all fair game. It would be disingenuous of me to suggest you not share photos just in case a pro decides to show up.
But if you know a pro is covering a certain league and certain teams, in my mind you should respect their ‘turf’. As long as they’re supplying a decent product at a fair price. And it isn’t a game by game thing either. No way is a pro going to shoot every game a team plays. So if the parents know you’re going to give away free photos from 9 out of 11 games and the pro is going to shoot 2, then you’re still encroaching on his turf.
No reason why you shouldn’t take photos of your own children. But as a matter of respect for the pro who can’t compete with a free product, how difficult is it to really keep yourself from giving away the product.
This is especially true for members of this and other forums who benefit from the advice and input from pros and more experienced shooters trying to earn a profit off their photography. Because what will happen is they’ll stop sharing. Everyone will lose out on the knowledge and experience they have because that advice and help is being turned against them.
As Randy said, I have no issue stacking my work up against any other person trying to run a business. But action sports photos are a luxury item in most cases. And unless the photos are horrible, enough parents will take free photos any day over pro quality photos for sports work. Some will still value the pro work but not enough to make it worth while.
So, if you’ve learned anything from those who post on these forums with regards to sports shooting the least you can do is respect their right to try and run their business. If you want to compete, compete on equal footing – as a business. Otherwise the first thing that will happen is those who take time to share will become too jaded and stop sharing (something that is already VERY prevalent in sports shooting) then those people will move on to some other type of photography. No reason you cant enjoy your hobby AND respect their turf – again, assuming there is an established pro with turf to protect.
As you (any novice) evolve as a photographer, Randy (and any other person that shoots for a living) should be evolving at twice the speed as you.
Most of us have seen we are mainly bound by our creative ability w/ photography. There are allot of amazing things you can do w/ a camera (not even including post). So instead of a pro shooter focusing on what the enthusiast or part time shooter is doing, they should be focusing on what they should be doing next. When your at the head of the pack, you don't look to see who's in second place, you see where your going next.
This isn't a slam on Randy or anyone that shoots pro. I have immense respect due to the advent of monetarily cheap cameras. I'm sure it's tough when a dad that goes out and shoots w/ a D3 or something ridiculous that a regular real photographer couldn't even imagine shooting with. But that's where skill comes in.
I think Randy is doing the right thing by finding a new niche. There are parents that are fanatics about their kids and sports. Those parents are willing to pay top dollar for some crazy shots (no more soccer ball on the knee while kneeling poses
bottom line is that no matter what we all think, people are going to do what they want and this topic on this forum will not stop it.
Times are a changing and low quality pics are acceptable for most people. If they want quality, they will have to pay for it. Eventually sports photographers in amateur leagues will die out due to not enough income to make it worth it. No matter how hard we fight it, this is the direction of the future.
We are being outsourced by over zealous parents that want recognition for their pictures. Nothing we can do about that unles you want to go through total frustration everytime you got out and shoot.
The only real solution I can see is to have a flat fee for a sporting event or get paid upfront from individual parents. Prints are just not that popular any more and trying to make an income from them is futile:cry.
My Photo Blog -->http://dthorpphoto.blogspot.com/
The benefit for me is not about recognition or praise. It's all about being a part of the team. The parents who are coaches freely give their time, and other parents help out with different things. This is my way of giving back to the team.
I will say that I don't post photos for all of the teams my kids are on. The ones with the great coaches are way more likely to get photos. My son's baseball team last season had five dads coaching - all made every practice and game. I not only offered photos but created a DVD of the season and gave a copy to each family.
I will also say that there aren't any pros taking pictures at these games. A few weekends ago my daughter played in a basketball tournament and a "pro" was talking photos of one of their games. This is the first time I've encountered this situation. Almost three weeks later the photos are still not posted on his site. He's charging $20 for an 8x10. I'm not going to feel bad if I decide to post my photos from that game for her team.
If there were pros at the normal league games for any of these sports I would think about changing this practice.
Mike,
It's refreshing for me to see someone who handles this exactly the way I do.
What nobody has mentioned is that sites like smugmug are partially responsible for this problem. I take exception to the comment that parents don't want quality photographs. I'm no pro, but my sports shots are pretty darn good. The comment I hear most from parents is that they cannot believe the quality of the printing from smugmug. This site has given access to professional grade processing coupled with an easy interface for storage and viewing. No amateur photographer had anything like this in the past.
http://clearwaterphotography.smugmug.com/
Folks, the fact is the parents were there taking photos first. Pros and semi-pros are a relatively recent phenomenon at youth games and High School games (around these parts anyway.)
I know architectural photography, and can make pretty fair money from it. I know soccer and field hockey well enough to be able to photograph it fairly well, but have never thought to try to charge for it. THE PARENTS WERE THERE FIRST with their point-and-shoots. Now the price of DSLRs has dropped to the point that the soccer mom has one on the sideline, and the photos she gets are "good enough for her." Are we going to blame Nikon and Canon?
This is not about "respecting the other photographer" (and whoever it was that aimed that cheap shot at me a couple pages ago did indeed lose my respect). It's about respecting the realities of the marketplace. For a little while, because of digital technology, there was a nice niche market for an accomplished sports photographer to make some money shooting athletic contests other than big time sports. That time may be nearly over.
Natural selection is responsible for every living thing that exists.
D3s, D500, D5300, and way more glass than the wife knows about.
I make my money freelancing and put my extra pictures up for purchase.
Something to consider in regards to pros shooting or not shooting is the amount of parents shooting their kids games and giving pictures away to other parents. I have noticed I get fewer pictures purchased from games I see parents shooting the games. I don't market myself aggressively so it's not a "scientific" absolute.
I do know if I were doing it without freelancing, I would not shoot those games with all the parents on the sidelines unless I got paid up front. I do think parents who photograph their kids and then give away pictures for free to other parents DO affect pros in an indirect way by discouraging them to cover the games.
This isn't to say parents who do this are evil, it's just another consequence. It's the nature of the beast in the digital age. I do think things will even out and we are entering into unchartered waters. Pros are going to have to become more specialized. It might mean finding the few clients who know and demand quality and who will pay for it.
Hey Mitch,
Thanks for posting a thought out message.
Do you remember the movie (I can't recall the name) where a man opens the window and screams out at the top of his lungs "I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore"?
What really happens? No one outside gives a rats patutie about this madman screaming. So what's the point? The point is, it helps the screamer get off his butt and make some decisions/changes.
First: My rant was to really help me, to make me rethink my business model and my career.
Second: I wanted to share some knowledge about how things really are out in the real world for the working pro. There's no way to know these things unless you either experience it for yourself, or someone shares that with you.
If upon knowing some of these things, a person decides to ignore their part in the issue, so be it. That's a personal choice. But how can anyone expect people to change their actions about a problem (that they are contributing to) if they are not fully aware of it? I think that's unrealistic.
I'm sharing some of that information with everyone.
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(Smokers: Don't get your tobacco wadded into a knot. - this is to illustrate a point)
Everyone sees the public problems created by smokers. Specifically, cigarette butts thrown all over earth. It's ugly, aggravating and cost lots of money to clean-up. Why can't the smokers simply be responsible for their actions and dispose of the cigarette butts correctly? Then the problem wouldn't exist.
General Public:Throwing trash on the ground, or blowing out of the back of a truck, etc. These are huge, costly problems and could be completely avoided by each person simply taking responsibility for their part in the problem.
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The point of these statements:
Yes, I'm directly affected by parents giving away pictures, but YOU ARE TOO!!! You just don't realize it yet.
When all the pro's leave youth to prep sports due to this issue, it will be the reign of the amateur photographer.
Whats the big deal with that?
(In no particular order)
- Even if there is a single person left that wants to buy a professional level photo, there won't be any available
- When the pro's leave and setup shop in other areas of photography, who's going to take all the Team & Individual pictures?
- Amateurs are just that. They don't do photography full time. So who's going to be at all those events that aren't convenient for the parent to "cover"?
- When amateurs are pressed to provide full coverage, all season, etc, it magically stops being so fun - so they aren't going to do it
And here's the BIG ONE - I want to make sure you understand this:ANYONE who does someday want to try and take sports pictures for a living, it ain't gonna happen! There will be no market for "paid for pictures" in the not so distant future in youth sports thanks to parents giving away photos. Without that foothold into the professional market, how are you going to get higher up, to shoot the upper level sports? Is a person going to say "I've shot my kids teams pictures and gave all the pictures away, now please give me field credentials to your professional event."?
Ain't gonna' happen
Did the pro's cause this problem? No they did not. They have been screaming about it for a long time. The parents giving pictures away own this issue, it's by their actions.
Mitch,
I can't tell you what to do, heck, I have a hard enough time trying to do what I think I need to do in life
I can simply try and let you know what I see happening, and what I believe the problem source to be.
It's fully up to you to decide what you think your role in this problem is and what you intend to do about it.
Let your conscience be your guide
Good luck with your decision. It appears that your truly want to understand the issue so that you can make an educated decision as to what to do.
If people who are giving pictures away want to put on blinders and deny that they are a part of this issue, again that's their prerogative. I've given what I feel is accurate information.
YMMV
Again, thanks for your post
Almost forgot: I'm a big fan of your garage portraits.
I am a PWAC, I don't like those acronyms at all but I will say I am that.
I have two daughters that dance competitively and wanted to get pictures of them doing it. The point and shoot cameras did nothing for me and really I didn't understand them. I could never get an action shot and it was annoying as heck to me.
I got a Canon Rebel XT and a 150 dollar 300 lense. Starting working on it reading any site I could and no I never posted questions like I am doing this in the AM what do I need. I read alot of great peoples responses to those and learned from them.
I still never got past the auto "ICON" settings on the camera and I really paid for it when it mattered. I got lucky early on a great stage at a competition with lots of light and a great background. I thought I was the bomb. I only took one set pictures because I did not know that the competition did not allow pictures. The door said no Flash Photography, in Orlando that means turn of the flash. I did.. The Director at the studio said don't get us in trouble. I stopped..
A year later at a Competion I realized my $150 dollar 300 lense would not get it in low light. My pictures where blurred and I couldn't figure out why. I had the camera on the "Action" setting and from the back of the theater with light only on the stage and a pink background it was a mess.
I started reading and working and realized I needed an upgrade. I bought one of those "White Lenses" that everyone seems to hate parents having. I took pictures in every low light setting I could. Indoor hockey games, Birthday Parties outside, Just to work on it. I learned where I could and took lots more. I gave my friends and families some of the pictures I took and they enjoyed them. I was not trying to make money I was trying to learn how to take pictures of my kids.
The next big Competition came along and the big "White Lense" (Canon 70-200mm) 2.8L non IS. I did good not thinking great but the kids and parents where really happy with the pictures. They asked how much they where and I sold them a CD of their kids numbers. I wasn't particularly happy with them, I used some of the Av/Tv settings but it did not click to me yet. I was getting there but was not all the way there with what caused what.
I did some local Charity events and walks for some friends groups and gave the pictures to use for their local groups. They appreciated my time and effort, I worked really hard to get them good shots to promote their causes.
This past year I wanted to really get better and work a lot on my photography. I could not take dance photos all the time which was my main goal to capture my daughters on "Digital Film" for family to see and remember.
I asked the local HS Athletic Director if I could take pictures at the football games for my own use the get better. I explained who I was and what I was trying to do. He said I could not shoot Varsity football however, I could shoot all the JV and Freshman games I wanted. I told him I was not there to sell photos just get better at Low Light Action Pictures. Which remarkably Indoor Dance Competitions and Football at night are remarkably similar. I got to watch some Football instead of dance and learn to take pictures. What an awesome way to learn.
I was on the side lines, some of the boys where friends of my neighbors and they where excited to have anyone take pictures. Noone was on the sidelines for JV and Freshman. They posted my pics on their Myspace and they had a blast. I looked at sportsshooter.com for ideas and other sites of what I should doing and kept digging so to speak. The yearbook/hired photog showed up the last games of the season for JV/Freshman when some of the best players had been hurt. Parents where excited to have any pictures of their kids. I posted them on a Picasa Gallery for them to enjoy. Some of my neighbors parents where really excited. They where horrible at the beginning. I went through one by one and checked settings and learned. I even took Morning Flag football for my Nephew and learned.
The only way to get better at anything is repition, I took thousands of pictures and the I improved because of that.
This past year I decided to Join SmugMug and get a professional account to try and sell some photos for parents. They are technically challenged don't know how to upload to Walgreen's even when they have the images. Not all print kiosks take DVD's of pictures. They just want to buy the prints and have them shipped. They have incredible prints, I get unlimited space and can customize. I bought the cow so to speak.
This last competition, I had a blast. The professional photographer there even had the competition people adjust the light, I knew exactly what to do and kept digging on getting good shots. I think I did great, I missed a few leaps and turns as everyone does but I got more, cleaner shots and was not phased by things that would have bother me bigtime in the past.
I have rambled on and told everyone why I do what I do. I make a little money, and enjoy the kids hard work and they can show their friends what they do on my galleries or purchase some CD's of their numbers or prints from SmugMug.
My job is a job that brings in a paycheck, I am not trying to take anyones paycheck. But I have worked hard trying to take pictures at events with most of the time noone taking photos. The Dance competitions I took photos there was a Pro and I was allowed as where all parents. The same pro over the years has shot himself in the foot by his attitude and lack of pictures. Parents would often buy from me and him all the time.
Most of all Photography is FUN for me!!
There is one constant in life, Change.
David Evertsen
www.phabulousphotos.com
www.phabulousphotos.com
Sportsshooter.com Member
http://www.sportsshooter.com/members.html?id=10162
I'm confident that Randy and any other photographer that's worth their salt will step up to the challenge and raise the bar by catering to the people that are willing to pay for professional shots though.
I think the realization that some parents volunteer their time and photography skill to the team, just as some parents volunteer their time to coach, etc. The difference being that by the coaches volunteering they aren't taking income from someone else. Its reality and therefore I am hesitant to even try much sports action that I am not first paid for. I do shoot college sports, where access is the issue, so far less competition on the sideline, and a large number of fans that want prints.
The real winners in this is the camera manufactors, and not the photographers. With more competition in the sports action area, then the less pros will venture into it.
Your issues are legitimate and I have gotten a different perspective on them in the last few weeks of posting here (some pain involved). But there's still at least one last thing that hasn't been said, and it needs to be:
I have a huge problem with anyone -- whether it be a local youth sports league, a board of education or a university - profiting from the sale of "exclusive" photography rights with respect to amateur sports. I have followed my own kids' sports from age 4 into NCAA Division I, and none of their participation has been "free". I pay taxes that enable my kids to play in town rec leagues; fees to play in youth sports leagues; and tuition that I choke on to play in college. And still, somebody wants to make images of those sports proprietary to some random guy? IMO it's unethical for the governing body even to offer it; NOT unethical for you or any pro to take it if offered. But having paid my taxes, my fees and my tuition, I don't really want to be told what I can or cannot do with my images of my kid or my fellow parents' kids.
Just so you don't think we are completely sideways on this, parents asked me to take a team pic after an upcoming game (college level). I told them that I would not do it if the pro had been there shooting the game and they should ask him and pay him for the image. Nevertheless, I will shoot the game from the stands (as I have been doing) and do what I want to with the images (as I have been doing).
You have already identified that the business model is flawed and will only become more flawed going forward, and if you choose to be less generous with your advice, whether on-line or on-field, that's our loss.
__________________
www.browngreensports.com
http://browngreensports.smugmug.com
I do appreciate your comments. I just gave you some information and helped with your confidence. You did the rest
I'm proud for you for how much your photography has improved. You've done good on that.
On the other:
My initial post (rant) was to vent. It then morphed into the "giving away pics" portion of the issue. I won't beat on that, I've pretty much covered that.
What I do feel is being completely missed/ignored by the folks who are practicing the pic giveaway is what I posted in response to Mitch's post.
Giving away pictures is not only ruining the current business opportunity for youth sports, it's washing away a very viable path into professional photography, or even just to make some pocket change to buy more equipment.
As has been posted, for a lot of people, taking your kids pics is the first step. Starting to sell them is the next. If the stars align at the right time for a person, there may be enough work to actually make a living at photography if so inclined.
When that path is gone, it's gone.
It might not affect you personally due to your not wanting to go pro, but what about all those other amateur photographers? They aren't going to have a prayer, at least not from this path.
What is hugely ironic, is they are cutting off their own noses.
A person can't just decide one day that he/she is good enough to go pro, then jump into the big leagues. It doesn't work that way.
This is a concern I have for all those that hope to some day make a living taking sports pictures. Yes, this issue affects me presently, but it obviously isn't a completely self-centered one. I've already made that jump (full time photographer) and have been doing OK and have been published many times. My name is out there. Besides, I'm a rodeo photographer by trade.
But alas, I fear the tide of change is swelling and there is no holding it back. I've got to do some changing myself or drown.
Thanks for posting your thoughts Kent.
I've been on the sideline in this thread so far, but reading with interest. I confess. I am a PWAC and I give away free pictures. Year 'round soccer of several age groups, spring softball, little league, school events, boy scout events, girl scout events, etc... I have a whole Smugmug account dedicated just to the event pictures that I give away.
I've always thought of what I do exactly as bham said. I volunteer my time for the benefit of the other families on the team/organization. It's the same sort of team benefit as an assistant coach who comes to some practices to help with the practice. I think I'm doing a kind thing for both the kids and their families. I do it because it's fun and because it's rewarding and because I like it when people enjoy the pictures. I put a ton of time into this endeavor because I catalog every keeper image by player name and organize the season's photos into a gallery for each player and several other themed galleries.
In four years, I've only ever seen a pro once (at a soccer tournament with lots of teams). I never saw him shoot my daughter's team. From time to time teams will hire pros to shoot official team portraits. Since I don't usually do those kind of shots, there's never been a conflict.
On the other hand, the school just had their annual talent show (a two hour, well orchestrated event in a theatre). The school hires a videographer to video the whole event and they "hire" me to do the still photographs. The difference. The videographer charges the school money and the parents have to pay to get a DVD. I don't charge anyone for the photos I take. I'm sure if there was a parent who could/would do a top notch job on the video, they'd go that way too. I wouldn't be surprised if that happens in the next few years with the explosion of home video.
I don't know if I'm actually adding any value to this thread other than trying to explain why we do what we do and that it has nothing to do with wanting to hurt a pro.
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In my experiences... from events I've shot at... people just want PICTURES... if they can get bad ones or OK ones for free.... that's good enough... but take those bad/ok free pics away and they WILL buy the GOOD ones from the pros...
If a pro takes a truely awesome pic of them then they will sometimes buy it even with the free ones... but how often does a pro get that AWESOME shot EVERY time they shoot a pic??? So the quality of the pictures are great.... but not all of them are must-have's. So there really is no way to compete with the amature on the side giving pics away for fee or even cheap even with their bad pics... the people just want PICTURES in general...
And if a pro takes bad pics... and their pics are the only ones to choose from.. they WILL buy those pics. But how many amatures on the side lines take a look at a pro's work first before giving pics away or selling them to see if their work is bad in the first place? But just because a pro isn't very good... doesn't mean it's OK to steal their bread and butter either... just saying...
I went to a horse show this weekend to shoot some pics of a friend of mine who just got a new horse and this was their first show together. I shot her and several other people I knew... I have NO idea if there was a pro photog there or not simply bc there were white lenses a dime a dozen at that show... every time I turned around there was someone else walking by that had a big fancy lens....
I don't really feel threatened much by the amatures taking pics at horse shows I work... this is mostly bc equestrians are picky with what they like. Even other pros that try to shoot it don't do too well bc they don't know what to shoot. Now other equestrians on the sides with a camera... I watch them to see if what they are doing will work out for them or not. If they are spot on with their shots... then I get a little worried about my bottom line... but if all they are shooting is the horse's butt going over the fence instead of a front or side shot... then I carry on like they aren't even there.
One show I was shooting another pro showed up. (I was the official photog for this weekend so I was a little baffled) Started shooting right next to me too.... I started up a conversation with the guy to try to find out what his intentions were. He had never shot a horse show before and was friends with someone at the show. I politely asked him not to give away any of his pictures as I was trying to make a living and I already didn't make much off of those shows. He said he had no intentions of giving them away and he understood. I think that, perhaps, this might be a good way to handle this problem. If you see someone with a big fancy lens, talk to them... find out what they are doing. Be nice... and just ask them to help you make a living by not giving pics away for free/cheap. Explain it's hard to make a living and you need all the sales you can get. I think most people will understand if you explain the situation to them. I think it's when we get a little bent out of shape and rude that people will put up a wall and give things away out of spite.
I think a lot of people that are giving these pics away don't realize the consequences of their actions either. They may not even realize that it puts us photogs out of business and then there won't be anymore photogs are local events... and then they wonder why no one is photographing the small events... they think we are too stuck up to care about the little events... but in reality it is bc we were driven away by lack of business.
Maybe we (collective group of pro photographers) should start up a educational campagne to educate the public on why not to give pics away... or why you should keep buying from the pros even if you get a couple OK free shots from a friend... that is if they want to keep us at their events... (not really a reality.... mostly wishful thinking)
Drake Photography - My Home on the Web
I think you have a sensible approach. The frustrating thing is - even within this thread there have been a number of people that basically are saying "tough. Sorry what I'm doing can hurt your business but thats not my problem".
I think where it's especially an issue is with parents. Without delving into and rehashing all the reasons - there are a lot more parents at events taking photos and they give them away.
I was asked to shoot a CYO basketball game by one such parent - she has a Nikon D70 and decent lenses but not 2.8 or primes. She takes photos at all her kids sporting events and gives them away. She wanted me for the basketball because she couldn't get any that were acceptable. But outdoor sports her intent was to keep giving the photos away. Paying for them was a "last resort". So, she bought a good amount from me but the other parents bought none. They were happy with the free poor shots and didn't want to pay anything. Unfortunately, as has been my way, I provided advice to this mom on what equipment would give her better basketball shots. She's planning on buying it now.
So she represents the type of parent that is at least willing to pay for the shots. But most parents, as you mentioned are not when they can get anything for free.
I talked with her enough that if I asked her not to give the photos away she would say "no way" just like the people here are saying.
I understand that now. So, knowing what I know now, helping people out is really hurting me in the long run. If she wanted to charge I know I'd do better because my product is better. But she doesn't - she just wants to be the provider of photos like so many here.
It is what it is. Unfortunately I now understand why it was like pulling teeth to get advice from pros. I unfortunately see what they meant. My helping these people out just harms us all.
Can I be blunt? If you are trying to make a living by selling product for a professional-class fee in a market saturated with free product that is good enough to be in demand, it is you who needs to give things some thought. We're talking kids and silly games and coffee table snapshots here, not the Super Bowl and the Sports Illustrated cover. The idea that the kids' parents should think twice before sharing photos of their kids playing a game is laughable.
You can still be a pro in this market. But if your worried about a PWIC shots versus yours. You need to rethink how you take pictures in the first place.