I think I’m going to stop training people to take money from me.
I’ve been shooting HS sports for 2007 & 2008 with a national company that pays me an event fee. I like that; I’m tired of shooting spec. (Although all my rodeo work is spec)
Anyway, their budget got tight nearing the end of the season and they cut several schools a couple of months early. Mine was one of them. One of the main criteria was how many pictures were being sold from that school. Nothing new here, life goes on.
Here’s the rub:
Come to find out, according to the AD, the local “dads” pictures were getting good enough that the other parents were opting to just download their “free” pictures instead of “paying” for ours. It was noted that our pics were of a higher quality, but the “free” pics were good enough for the price. Still, nothing new here, happens all the time.
But, I’ve been helping, training these guys if you will, all season. The school is located in an affluent part of the metroplex, so the dads have a good bit of play money. The last softball game I shot, there were 5 white lenses there, mine was one. These guys are showing up with 40D’s, 1DMkII’s, D300’s, etc. One dad at the last game even had a Canon 300mm f/2.8 on his 40D. Yep, camera on his new monopod, mounted from the camera base. That huge lens dangling off the front totally unsupported.
The point is:
These guys have the equipment and the same field access that I have, they just didn’t have the knowledge to use it right. Unfortunately, I provided a lot of that knowledge for them, enough over the season for them to start producing half-way decent pictures.
Not only did I loose a couple months worth of contract work due to the drop-off in sales, I’m not sure if this school will get picked-up this fall. That would mean a lot of money lost!
I realize that several here do this very thing thinking that it doesn’t hurt anyone. Well, that’s not always the case, is it?
Of course I’ll just move on and get other gigs, but this really torques me.
This Mr. Nice Guy attitude just bit me in the butt!!! --- I think I’m done with it.
-- Rant Over --
Randy
I have been following this post from the begining and the whole while I have wanted to post but I couldnt think of the right words, so before this thread gets closed off, let me add my $.02, I am a Pro who has been in a similar
postion and it sucks, I have forgot to right click protect my pics and had no sales for that event and it also sucks, life goes on. I would say that even though branching our business models out is a good thing, I will never abandon Action photography, I love it, I wish I had the Cojones or opportunity to shoot a bull rider, It must be something.
People are going to do whatever they are goin to do, whether we like it or not, but I for one am not going to let someone negatively effect my business or state of mind, I would venture that most PWACs are good people who appreciate the advice and would never dream of hurting a fellow photographer, but there are always exceptions and to those people,Well theres always Karma. I appreciate all the advice I have received from everyone from the Sportshooters to the PWACs and I say NEVER let anyone EVER dictate to you your state of mind or business
All the best
Chris www.longislandimage.com
HEY GUS, PERSONALLY, I THINK THIS POST HAS GONE ON LONG ENOUGH, IF IT WAS FOR A VOTE, i WOULD SAY CLOSE IT AND LET IT DIE.
I read this thread first thing every day, and for the most part think it is a very healthy and fair debate.
I appreciate being able to read what for the most part are lucid explainations of each side. I am proud of the community for keeping this mostly out of the rant area, but a legit discussion on the merits fo both sides.
Randy has been kind enough to be a participant here, and more than just a participant, a leader in helping progress the work of others. His input helped me personally - along with many others.
The challenges of being pro in a changing market is a worthwile topic. The changing technical landscape, combined with easy access to pro level equipment and developing technology makes the differential between advanced amateur and pro less and less. That combined with film being effectively free, makes the machine gun dads get relatively good shots sometimes. I'll bet the keeper rate is low, but the quality of that one shot keeps them coming back.
I dont play golf like Tiger Woods, but that one chrisp long iron shot keeps me playing!
Keep this thread alive, there is still more to learn.
Z
It is the purpose of life that each of us strives to become actually what he is potentially. We should be obsessed with stretching towards that goal through the world we inhabit.
I read this thread first thing every day, and for the most part think it is a very healthy and fair debate.
...
Keep this thread alive, there is still more to learn.
Z
I concur. Great discussion. I'm a PWAC, so guess which side of the debate I fall on?
It is good to hear the other side of the argument though.
I appreciate being able to read what for the most part are lucid explainations of each side.
Keep this thread alive, there is still more to learn. Z
When I made my original post, it was to vent. I had no dilutions that posting that story would immediately change anything here on dgrin or elsewhere. As stated, venting is for the benefit of the vent-or.
But, as I have mostly tried to do on dgrin, I tried to supply some helpful knowledge. I thought that this thread could be someplace that the amateur/hobby/PWAC shooter could gain some insight from the other side of the fence, from a (full time - AKA = pro) shooters viewpoint.
While this may or may not have happened, it does seem as though the info is completely not welcome by most due to it being counter to what they want to do. As in most things in life, its easier to understand something if you know it from more than one perspective. That's what I am trying to do here.
As was evident, I have to admit getting ruffled by a couple of post that basically implied that they didn't care one bit (cocky) if I fail and my family suffers for it. I found that very cold. I, like anyone else, will defend my families future.
If you don't have the pressures of making a living at photography, selling enough to make that house payment, get that contract so that you can buy groceries this month, dealing with issues that hinder that, etc. --- how would you know if someone didn't share that info with you? Do non of you have the hope of someday shooting full time?
It's pretty simple:
If you don't care, you don't care.
If your getting something useful out of it, my time wasn't wasted.
I have never understood the mentality that more info is a bad thing.
If the people that want to lock this thread don't want to read it anymore, why do they do so? Its very simple to not click on the thread.
I think it's great to have these kinds of discussions. It helps us all evaluate where we are and what we are doing.
I started out in this business shooting my kids teams. I gave away photos as I learned and when I decided to shoot kids I didn't know, I started selling the photos to their parents. I sold at prices that I thought my market could bear. There were no other photographers doing what I was doing in my market so I had nothing to which I could compare.
My hobby has evolved into a pretty good side business for me that I enjoy immensely. I shoot high school sports, high school theatre, kid sports, and a few portraits. About 90% of my work is on spec. AND HERE'S THE IMPORTANT PART... if I walk up to a game and see a half-dozen parents there with cameras, I already know that my chances of selling to the parents in the stands is greatly diminished. If I start shooting and someone approaches to ask advice... I give it. That's the kind of person I am and that's the kind of person I am determined to always be.
Now, does any of this make me an evil PWAC (Parent with a Camera)? Or perhaps I'm a PWAC (Professional Without a CLUE). Regardless of the label you wish to apply..... I'm a thinker.... and here's what I think: Markets change.
I either adapt my business plan or I get out of the business. Randy, the original post-er has acknowledged this several times through this thread. He gets it. He ain't happy 'bout it. But he gets it.
There have been a few things said in this thread that I don't agree with, however. Randy voiced concern about the career path toward Sports Illustrated and big-time professional sports photography getting screwed up. I'm not worried about SI. Somehow they will ADAPT. Cream will rise to the top - somehow - and SI will find them and the world will go on. Two years into my side business and I'm regularly having photos published in the local community newspaper. Is it hard to imagine the big city newspaper calling me for a photo if my local sports team makes the playoffs? Is it hard to imagine them being impressed with the quality of my work and NOT caring how much I charged parents for it? Is it really that hard to imagine the sports print industry ADAPTING to the new realities of the digital age? They'll be fine.
Someone also said that the ones that will suffer are the parents who don't get free photos AND don't have a chance to buy professional photos because the professionals have all been pushed out of business. When a void appears, something will fill it. While I was typing this response my daughter sent me a text message saying that a friend of hers was playing softball tonight and wondered if I would come shoot her team. Ahhhh yes, the marketplace works. I'll go shoot that game and hand out six or eight business cards and I'll make $50 to $150 bucks. The local paper will see my online gallery and call to ask for the use of one of my photos in next weeks softball coverage. And, a parent who doesn't have access to good photos will call and ask me to shoot her kid's game next week. The circle of life....
When someone says that money is being taken out of THEIR pocket, I look very seriously at the accusation. It turns out that none of us are ENTITLED to the money about which this thread revolves. The money belongs to our customers. The value of the products we offer DOES NOT depend on our personal situation. I've never been able to discern by looking at a photograph whether or not the photographer was behind on his house payment. I can't even figure out if the photographer is full-time or part-time. If the photo is good enough, it will be purchased. If not enough of them are worth purchasing, then the photographer will either go out of business or find a new market where his work is good enough to earn what he needs.
And finally ( ), let's all take a deep breath and remember some things about "traditional" professional photography:
Many professional wedding photographers got their start by VOLUNTEERING to be second-shooters with a pro. They learned from the pro and then eventually went out on their own. Shame on them?
Same story with portrait photographers. I've read several threads right here on DGrin where the advise was to go VOLUNTEER to help a pro with a shoot in order to learn.
And does anyone remember the gnashing of teeth in the professional community when DIGITAL came along? Oh the hysteria! The "late adopters" of the technology were certain that the customers were going to reject the inferior quality ..... and as the wave overwhelmed them they complained that it wasn't fair that the digital folks could take so many pictures "for free" because they didn't have to buy film...... and then along came the online photo sharing technologies. Not fair! .......
The one constant in business: CHANGE.
Adapt or get out! But please, don't try to convince me or the hobbyists or the part-time professionals or the full-time amateurs or the part-time parents or anyone else that you deserve to make a living at this just because you ......... why? Because you WANT TO? Good Luck!
...
And finally ( ), let's all take a deep breath and remember some things about "traditional" professional photography:
Many professional wedding photographers got their start by VOLUNTEERING to be second-shooters with a pro. They learned from the pro and then eventually went out on their own. Shame on them?
Same story with portrait photographers. I've read several threads right here on DGrin where the advise was to go VOLUNTEER to help a pro with a shoot in order to learn.
I would say those are true, but not applicable to this thread scenario.
Have you seen or read advice to VOLUNTEER to shoot with a pro to learn, then turn around an give the pro's customers your pictures FREE?
Adapt or get out! But please, don't try to convince me or the hobbyists or the part-time professionals or the full-time amateurs or the part-time parents or anyone else that you deserve to make a living at this just because you ......... why? Because you WANT TO? Good Luck!
- James
So your saying that your viewpoint is the only valid one, and the only one that should be presented?
Most people are in a certain job/industry because they WANT TO. Why the accusation that I shouldn't be?
First off I want to say I'm not trying to be cold. I'm trying to be realistic. There is an over-supply in this market and not enough demand. Prices will fall. Sometimes to zero.
Its not that I want to see anyone suffer, lose a job, a house, struggle with groceries. Seriously, I'm not that cruel. A close friend of mine just got hit yesterday by AMD's layoff. But to assume that since I've said "so what" if this industry is dying means that I hope those people starve is a bit puzzling. Its a bifurcation error to assume that the only two choices are to fix this industry or starve. Perhaps I need to restate what I've said, which is the third option: the market is over-supplied, move to something else. I do care, I don't want to see people starve. The only viable advice is to adapt to the changing market or change to a new market or industry entirely.
But to cling to the belief that you can tell people to stop giving away the photos that are legally theirs to do with as they please is folly. And if I were to rally behind that cry for you I'd just be sending you into the abyss. And that would truly be cold.
I refuse to do that.
James had a great post and he truly gets it. Randy, appears to not still.
Have you seen or read advice to VOLUNTEER to shoot with a pro to learn, then turn around an give the pro's customers your pictures FREE?
You gave advice to parents who wanted to learn to take their pictures better. And, they share them with their friends. I'm not sure where the surprise factor comes in here.
Most people are in a certain job/industry because they WANT TO. Why the accusation that I shouldn't be?
You are mis-stating him slightly but the difference is important. You're free to be in an industry you want, but don't expect the rest of the world to stop doing any practice that jeapordizes your profit potential. Just because you WANT to work in an industry does not grant you the right for that industry to be profitable.
I would say those are true, but not applicable to this thread scenario.
Have you seen or read advice to VOLUNTEER to shoot with a pro to learn, then turn around an give the pro's customers your pictures FREE?
I think not...
Randy, I'm sorry you don't get the point. My examples about traditional photography career paths were not intended to mean, "Hey Randy, this is just like your story." No, my intent was to illustrate that photography has a rich history of people doing things for FREE as a way to learn. Your original rant is not new and would probably make a lot of sense to the professional wedding photographer who would NOT be willing to take on an assistant for free because they would fear that they were, in effect, training their future competition. Competition is competition - whether it is someone undercutting your prices, giving it away for free, or just kicking your butt with quality, service, and pleasant attitude.
As for your situation, I think it stinks that someone would give away photos at events where you are shooting after you have given them advise on how to do it. If it were me, I might ask them to consider the effect that it is having. My fear for you, however, is that if you say something to them - based on some of your responses in this forum - you might do more harm than good.
So your saying that your viewpoint is the only valid one, and the only one that should be presented?
I don't even know what to say to this one. You completely misrepresent the tone, spirit and content of what I said. When did I advocate ending the thread because I HAD SPOKEN!? To the contrary, I am merely wishing anyone luck if they think they DESERVE to make a living at photography.
Most people are in a certain job/industry because they WANT TO. Why the accusation that I shouldn't be?
Again Randy, you conveniently misrepresent my point. Read it again and you will see that my beef is with those who feel they DESERVE to make a living in photography just because they want to. Huge difference! You get to choose what you want to do but you don't necessarily get to demand that everyone else line up to make it work for you.
And finally, don't quote me and then add underlines and bolds to what I said. It's misleading at best - dishonest at worst.
Thanks for your time. I'm going out now to shoot for fun and profit!
Perhaps I need to restate what I've said, which is the third option: the market is over-supplied, move to something else. I do care, I don't want to see people starve. The only viable advice is to adapt to the changing market or change to a new market or industry entirely.
Bill, I stated this very thing in the first few pages of this thread, and many times throughout.
But to cling to the belief that you can tell people to stop giving away the photos that are legally theirs to do with as they please is folly.
Even as late as post #125 above, I stated "When I made my original post, it was to vent. I had no dilutions that posting that story would immediately change anything here on dgrin or elsewhere. As stated, venting is for the benefit of the vent-or."
But, lets get this point straight:
When I do have an exclusive contract to shoot an event, then other people do NOT have a LEGAL right to take pictures and do with them as they please. This is not the case in the initial rant situation, but it does happen in my rodeo events as I also posted about in this thread. It's the same mindset.
You are mis-stating him slightly but the difference is important. You're free to be in an industry you want, but don't expect the rest of the world to stop doing any practice that jeapordizes your profit potential. Just because you WANT to work in an industry does not grant you the right for that industry to be profitable.
I don't expect people will stop doing it, but I can try and educate them about it. You seem to ignore that I have several times stated that I'm investigating other avenues of photography due to this issue. How is that "not getting it"?
Why do you think this is a common gripe among pro photographers? Do you feel they are all wrong too? That they just don't get it either? What industry hopes that people will give away products or services instead of selling them? How would that possibly be beneficial to their industry?
My main income is from rodeo photography. Prep sports was a good gig, shooting for a straight fee, but not something that's going to sink me on its own even if I never shoot another prep sports event. I'm not crying, "if you don't stop giving pics away I'm not going to make it". I'm saying, "its not a good thing for the pro photography industry, myself included".
Thanks for taking the time and effort to voice your opinion.
Randy, my hats off to you.... You have remained very civil and gentleman like, during this whole thread, I applaud you. Ok, here’s my take. The general public is cheap. They will go after the bargain basement for the best deal possible, even free non-professional products. Here is where my industry affects lives because of this behavior. I’m a commercial aircraft technician. Have been for over 18 years. I’ve seen a lot of change in this industry; I know you know what I’m talking about. The pioneers are gone, Pan Am, TWA. The others will follow suit before long. Why? I can get into deregulation or the price of oil here but I won’t. It’s consumer behavior as stated before. Consider yourself lucky that you have different avenue’s to explore, say architectural photography. Don’t get me wrong, I feel for you. But change is necessary to survive. I lost some good friends in this industry due to lay off’s because of outsourcing. If the job can be done cheaper and that’s what the general public wants, cheap tickets, then so be it. But it comes at a price. It’s a mentality that you can’t change. In my industry, the FAA are the watch dogs. Guess what. They failed. More then once too. So can I change my job to fit the times? Not easily. I make a pretty good living without having a formal education, but I’m paying the price for it because of seniority. It’s a seniority based industry, and if I want to stay on day shift, I just hope I don’t have to go somewhere else and start all over again on graves. I’ve been doing this job too long to do something else, my choosing. So now overhaul gets outsourced to people doing the same work with less training, less certificates, less pay and less drug and alcohol restrictions. Does the public care about that? Not as long as they get the cheap fair. Low Cost Carrier. We hear that a lot in our meetings. Everyone (all airlines) are trying to keep up with the LCC’s. Well the industry watch dog just got caught with their hand in the cookie jar. What does that mean for me? I just hope that my company can keep up with the changes fast enough. So far they have... at the cost of fellow workers. Now that aircraft overhaul is being done overseas, guess how much oversight is being done by the feds (FAA), not enough. Not until they (third party contractors) start splashing aircraft into the ground. We have a saying about the ways the feds do business: no change without death. I think I’m rambling now. I’ve been wanting to cut and paste a lot the post’s here because I can relate to the outsourcing part of it. But I have to admit, I’m one of those dads on the sideline taking pics of my 6 and 9 year olds at the soccer, baseball, tai kwon do, and basketball events. Are there professionals snapping photos there too? Not to my knowledge. I’m really the only one out there with a DSLR. But after reading this thread I’ll sure keep an eye out for them and make sure I have some conversation with them. I’m sure that won’t happen until later. I don’t give out photos or plan too from the games. Maybe a candid photo of a neighbors kid that turned out spectacular. I had a lot I wanted to say while I was reading this thread and I know I have rambled here, but I just wanted to say, don’t let these guys get to you, you seem to have a good heart and a good head, put it to good use where PWAC aren’t a factor, but you have that figured out already. Good luck.
BTW KEEP FLYING!!! I still fly and put my wife and kids on these airplanes so don't let the ramblings of an semi old timer scare you.
I have the same problems with video. But luckily I don't do event videos.
I think thats the thing. Look for other avenues, or take photos that are so much better than the amateurs that people simply have to get your photos.
I see too many events photos that are generic in the extreme. Too much focus on quantity rather than quality.
If you are taking general compositions, then you can't be surprised when an amateur achieves the same thing. Equipment these days is available to everyone.
The phrase 'all of the equipment, none of the talent' springs to mind for a lot of people. Put simply you should be able to take great photos if someone took away all of your equipment away and only left you with an SLR body and a basic 50mm prime.
There more cheapos that are out there with no talent, the more you should stand out, if you stand out.
View Images / Baseball / Middle School / D1D Valley Point VS New Hope 5-6-08
He posted 219 shots from this game.
Now lets look at the second"PWAC", Me, the "Parent With A Camera"
Giving everything away for free.
I posted 59 shots from that game.
This was a championship game. The 1st Championship in any sport for this 2yr old school. My son does not play on this team, but he did last year as an 8th grader. We went to watch his friends play. I happened to have my camera with me. I only shot my sons old team.
Yeah, I had reservations about posting to this as it has become a bit of a monster. But I thought I had something new, in that I had a good example of a "Pro" that doesn't shoot like one.
Blessed are those who remain flexible, for they shall not get bent out of shape.
Part of what wins here is Smugmug. Trying to look at the pro's images sure makes you appreciate how easy and nice it is to view things on Smugmug.
Yes, I agree completely. It's not just a comparison of the difference in photo quality, it is a comparison of website quality. and Smugmug blows the other guys site out of the water.
Blessed are those who remain flexible, for they shall not get bent out of shape.
Shooting photo's - No
Giving them away for free - Yes
You asked.
If this were a courtroom and all the judge expected was a yes or no answer you would be "the Man", but here we can give an answer with an explaination as to why you say what you do. Could you please elaborate? Thanks
Blessed are those who remain flexible, for they shall not get bent out of shape.
If this were a courtroom and all the judge expected was a yes or no answer you would be "the Man", but here we can give an answer with an explaination as to why you say what you do. Could you please elaborate? Thanks
I think that's what this whole thread has been about and hashed and rehashed to death.
Yes, I agree completely. It's not just a comparison of the difference in photo quality, it is a comparison of website quality. and Smugmug blows the other guys site out of the water.
I am not gonna get into the whole PWAC issue, but the Pro website you showed was designed by a Company I used to use, WD Webb/Morephotos
$250 for the basic web desgin and you couldnt customize it. Also, whenever you had more than 2500 pictures uploaded your monthly price went from $50 to anywhere in the $200 per month range. My point being that SMUGMUG rocks!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As far as the PWACs, all we are doing is :deadhorse
WOW !!! After reading through this thread , I am actually looking at things a bit differently . I am "1 of those dad's" that is out there with his camera every game , taking photos of his daughters' team , and giving away photos to the coaches/parents . You know what happened though ?? The coach is paying me or my pictures of his daughter pitching for them to look at mechanically . Let me get to the story behind this .. A few years ago , I was at a tournament for my daughter and purchased some photos of her that a pro was selling . After me just looking in awe at the photos , I started asking him questions , and he was very eagerly informing me about what would work . From that point , I wanted to invest/learn so I could photograph my daughter on my own , lived reading the internet , and even took a college course , which I followed up on recently , to help my new-found hobby and possibly get photos close to his quality. Now , I have to look at it in 2 ways . First , will the pro loose business from the team my daughter is on ?? No , because they very seldom purchase photos from pros at these events , and mater of fact , I very seldom see pros at these events anymore (this weekend in Forest Park Illinois at an ASA "A" tournament , I think I was alone in picture taking) Have pros abandoned this type of work due to parents taking pics on their own ???? Here is a different way of looking at it ... Has anyone had to take their car in for repair work ??? You get an estimate on car repair , and get your jaw dropping price in front of you , it is tough ... Now , just think if you had a friend that is a backyard mechanic , and will fix your car for just a case of beer , or maybe for 1/100th of the cost from a pro mechanic . What would you do ??? Do you feel guilty about the mechanic not getting more work ?? No , because you know that there are others that have no worries about paying them , and just that you are lucky enough to know someone . Now I don't offer pictures I take to the parents , but if they ask , I do supply them with photos that usually make them happy . And if they offer me money , I only charge them enough to cover my cost , due to my love of doing so . Back to the pictures . I give some pictures away to the parents/coaches to help them out , not to make profit . In my mind , that does not break any rules , or take away from a pro at 1 of these events . This is just the times of progress that we live in . We are at a time where saving money is a necessity , not an option , and if it means getting a picture of their son/daughter in a lesser quality than a pro , then do it . If anyone says they would do otherwise , well , they would be fibbing Like another poster said , with technology , the pros have to offer something out of the ordinary to keep success . All I have to say , thank he I am not a pro/carrer minded photographer . It is tough out there . And to the OP . You have done really well to keep an open mind in this thread .
Comments
I have been following this post from the begining and the whole while I have wanted to post but I couldnt think of the right words, so before this thread gets closed off, let me add my $.02, I am a Pro who has been in a similar
postion and it sucks, I have forgot to right click protect my pics and had no sales for that event and it also sucks, life goes on. I would say that even though branching our business models out is a good thing, I will never abandon Action photography, I love it, I wish I had the Cojones or opportunity to shoot a bull rider, It must be something.
People are going to do whatever they are goin to do, whether we like it or not, but I for one am not going to let someone negatively effect my business or state of mind, I would venture that most PWACs are good people who appreciate the advice and would never dream of hurting a fellow photographer, but there are always exceptions and to those people,Well theres always Karma. I appreciate all the advice I have received from everyone from the Sportshooters to the PWACs and I say NEVER let anyone EVER dictate to you your state of mind or business
All the best
Chris
www.longislandimage.com
HEY GUS, PERSONALLY, I THINK THIS POST HAS GONE ON LONG ENOUGH, IF IT WAS FOR A VOTE, i WOULD SAY CLOSE IT AND LET IT DIE.
:whip
WWW.LONGISLANDIMAGE.COM
I appreciate being able to read what for the most part are lucid explainations of each side. I am proud of the community for keeping this mostly out of the rant area, but a legit discussion on the merits fo both sides.
Randy has been kind enough to be a participant here, and more than just a participant, a leader in helping progress the work of others. His input helped me personally - along with many others.
The challenges of being pro in a changing market is a worthwile topic. The changing technical landscape, combined with easy access to pro level equipment and developing technology makes the differential between advanced amateur and pro less and less. That combined with film being effectively free, makes the machine gun dads get relatively good shots sometimes. I'll bet the keeper rate is low, but the quality of that one shot keeps them coming back.
I dont play golf like Tiger Woods, but that one chrisp long iron shot keeps me playing!
Keep this thread alive, there is still more to learn.
Z
I concur. Great discussion. I'm a PWAC, so guess which side of the debate I fall on?
It is good to hear the other side of the argument though.
Link to my Smugmug site
When I made my original post, it was to vent. I had no dilutions that posting that story would immediately change anything here on dgrin or elsewhere. As stated, venting is for the benefit of the vent-or.
But, as I have mostly tried to do on dgrin, I tried to supply some helpful knowledge. I thought that this thread could be someplace that the amateur/hobby/PWAC shooter could gain some insight from the other side of the fence, from a (full time - AKA = pro) shooters viewpoint.
While this may or may not have happened, it does seem as though the info is completely not welcome by most due to it being counter to what they want to do. As in most things in life, its easier to understand something if you know it from more than one perspective. That's what I am trying to do here.
As was evident, I have to admit getting ruffled by a couple of post that basically implied that they didn't care one bit (cocky) if I fail and my family suffers for it. I found that very cold. I, like anyone else, will defend my families future.
If you don't have the pressures of making a living at photography, selling enough to make that house payment, get that contract so that you can buy groceries this month, dealing with issues that hinder that, etc. --- how would you know if someone didn't share that info with you? Do non of you have the hope of someday shooting full time?
It's pretty simple:
If you don't care, you don't care.
If your getting something useful out of it, my time wasn't wasted.
I have never understood the mentality that more info is a bad thing.
If the people that want to lock this thread don't want to read it anymore, why do they do so? Its very simple to not click on the thread.
Of course, the mods can do as they wish with it.
I think it's great to have these kinds of discussions. It helps us all evaluate where we are and what we are doing.
I started out in this business shooting my kids teams. I gave away photos as I learned and when I decided to shoot kids I didn't know, I started selling the photos to their parents. I sold at prices that I thought my market could bear. There were no other photographers doing what I was doing in my market so I had nothing to which I could compare.
My hobby has evolved into a pretty good side business for me that I enjoy immensely. I shoot high school sports, high school theatre, kid sports, and a few portraits. About 90% of my work is on spec. AND HERE'S THE IMPORTANT PART... if I walk up to a game and see a half-dozen parents there with cameras, I already know that my chances of selling to the parents in the stands is greatly diminished. If I start shooting and someone approaches to ask advice... I give it. That's the kind of person I am and that's the kind of person I am determined to always be.
Now, does any of this make me an evil PWAC (Parent with a Camera)? Or perhaps I'm a PWAC (Professional Without a CLUE). Regardless of the label you wish to apply..... I'm a thinker.... and here's what I think: Markets change.
I either adapt my business plan or I get out of the business. Randy, the original post-er has acknowledged this several times through this thread. He gets it. He ain't happy 'bout it. But he gets it.
There have been a few things said in this thread that I don't agree with, however. Randy voiced concern about the career path toward Sports Illustrated and big-time professional sports photography getting screwed up. I'm not worried about SI. Somehow they will ADAPT. Cream will rise to the top - somehow - and SI will find them and the world will go on. Two years into my side business and I'm regularly having photos published in the local community newspaper. Is it hard to imagine the big city newspaper calling me for a photo if my local sports team makes the playoffs? Is it hard to imagine them being impressed with the quality of my work and NOT caring how much I charged parents for it? Is it really that hard to imagine the sports print industry ADAPTING to the new realities of the digital age? They'll be fine.
Someone also said that the ones that will suffer are the parents who don't get free photos AND don't have a chance to buy professional photos because the professionals have all been pushed out of business. When a void appears, something will fill it. While I was typing this response my daughter sent me a text message saying that a friend of hers was playing softball tonight and wondered if I would come shoot her team. Ahhhh yes, the marketplace works. I'll go shoot that game and hand out six or eight business cards and I'll make $50 to $150 bucks. The local paper will see my online gallery and call to ask for the use of one of my photos in next weeks softball coverage. And, a parent who doesn't have access to good photos will call and ask me to shoot her kid's game next week. The circle of life....
When someone says that money is being taken out of THEIR pocket, I look very seriously at the accusation. It turns out that none of us are ENTITLED to the money about which this thread revolves. The money belongs to our customers. The value of the products we offer DOES NOT depend on our personal situation. I've never been able to discern by looking at a photograph whether or not the photographer was behind on his house payment. I can't even figure out if the photographer is full-time or part-time. If the photo is good enough, it will be purchased. If not enough of them are worth purchasing, then the photographer will either go out of business or find a new market where his work is good enough to earn what he needs.
And finally (
Many professional wedding photographers got their start by VOLUNTEERING to be second-shooters with a pro. They learned from the pro and then eventually went out on their own. Shame on them?
Same story with portrait photographers. I've read several threads right here on DGrin where the advise was to go VOLUNTEER to help a pro with a shoot in order to learn.
And does anyone remember the gnashing of teeth in the professional community when DIGITAL came along? Oh the hysteria! The "late adopters" of the technology were certain that the customers were going to reject the inferior quality ..... and as the wave overwhelmed them they complained that it wasn't fair that the digital folks could take so many pictures "for free" because they didn't have to buy film...... and then along came the online photo sharing technologies. Not fair! .......
The one constant in business: CHANGE.
Adapt or get out! But please, don't try to convince me or the hobbyists or the part-time professionals or the full-time amateurs or the part-time parents or anyone else that you deserve to make a living at this just because you ......... why? Because you WANT TO? Good Luck!
- James
I would say those are true, but not applicable to this thread scenario.
Have you seen or read advice to VOLUNTEER to shoot with a pro to learn, then turn around an give the pro's customers your pictures FREE?
I think not...
So your saying that your viewpoint is the only valid one, and the only one that should be presented?
Most people are in a certain job/industry because they WANT TO. Why the accusation that I shouldn't be?
YMMV
Its not that I want to see anyone suffer, lose a job, a house, struggle with groceries. Seriously, I'm not that cruel. A close friend of mine just got hit yesterday by AMD's layoff. But to assume that since I've said "so what" if this industry is dying means that I hope those people starve is a bit puzzling. Its a bifurcation error to assume that the only two choices are to fix this industry or starve. Perhaps I need to restate what I've said, which is the third option: the market is over-supplied, move to something else. I do care, I don't want to see people starve. The only viable advice is to adapt to the changing market or change to a new market or industry entirely.
But to cling to the belief that you can tell people to stop giving away the photos that are legally theirs to do with as they please is folly. And if I were to rally behind that cry for you I'd just be sending you into the abyss. And that would truly be cold.
I refuse to do that.
James had a great post and he truly gets it. Randy, appears to not still.
You gave advice to parents who wanted to learn to take their pictures better. And, they share them with their friends. I'm not sure where the surprise factor comes in here.
You are mis-stating him slightly but the difference is important. You're free to be in an industry you want, but don't expect the rest of the world to stop doing any practice that jeapordizes your profit potential. Just because you WANT to work in an industry does not grant you the right for that industry to be profitable.
A former sports shooter
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Randy, I'm sorry you don't get the point. My examples about traditional photography career paths were not intended to mean, "Hey Randy, this is just like your story." No, my intent was to illustrate that photography has a rich history of people doing things for FREE as a way to learn. Your original rant is not new and would probably make a lot of sense to the professional wedding photographer who would NOT be willing to take on an assistant for free because they would fear that they were, in effect, training their future competition. Competition is competition - whether it is someone undercutting your prices, giving it away for free, or just kicking your butt with quality, service, and pleasant attitude.
As for your situation, I think it stinks that someone would give away photos at events where you are shooting after you have given them advise on how to do it. If it were me, I might ask them to consider the effect that it is having. My fear for you, however, is that if you say something to them - based on some of your responses in this forum - you might do more harm than good.
I don't even know what to say to this one. You completely misrepresent the tone, spirit and content of what I said. When did I advocate ending the thread because I HAD SPOKEN!? To the contrary, I am merely wishing anyone luck if they think they DESERVE to make a living at photography.
Again Randy, you conveniently misrepresent my point. Read it again and you will see that my beef is with those who feel they DESERVE to make a living in photography just because they want to. Huge difference! You get to choose what you want to do but you don't necessarily get to demand that everyone else line up to make it work for you.
And finally, don't quote me and then add underlines and bolds to what I said. It's misleading at best - dishonest at worst.
Thanks for your time. I'm going out now to shoot for fun and profit!
Bill, I stated this very thing in the first few pages of this thread, and many times throughout.
Even as late as post #125 above, I stated "When I made my original post, it was to vent. I had no dilutions that posting that story would immediately change anything here on dgrin or elsewhere. As stated, venting is for the benefit of the vent-or."
But, lets get this point straight:
When I do have an exclusive contract to shoot an event, then other people do NOT have a LEGAL right to take pictures and do with them as they please. This is not the case in the initial rant situation, but it does happen in my rodeo events as I also posted about in this thread. It's the same mindset.
I don't expect people will stop doing it, but I can try and educate them about it. You seem to ignore that I have several times stated that I'm investigating other avenues of photography due to this issue. How is that "not getting it"?
Why do you think this is a common gripe among pro photographers? Do you feel they are all wrong too? That they just don't get it either? What industry hopes that people will give away products or services instead of selling them? How would that possibly be beneficial to their industry?
My main income is from rodeo photography. Prep sports was a good gig, shooting for a straight fee, but not something that's going to sink me on its own even if I never shoot another prep sports event. I'm not crying, "if you don't stop giving pics away I'm not going to make it". I'm saying, "its not a good thing for the pro photography industry, myself included".
Thanks for taking the time and effort to voice your opinion.
I changed not a single word you wrote. I underlined and put bold the portions that I was specifically replying to.
Dishonest - now that's a pretty strong word. --- Thanks
I agree, Randy has done nothing approaching dishonest. He uses the same "style" to emphasize his own thoughts.
Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
You have remained very civil and gentleman like, during this whole thread, I applaud you.
Ok, here’s my take. The general public is cheap. They will go after the bargain basement for the best deal possible, even free non-professional products. Here is where my industry affects lives because of this behavior. I’m a commercial aircraft technician. Have been for over 18 years. I’ve seen a lot of change in this industry; I know you know what I’m talking about. The pioneers are gone, Pan Am, TWA. The others will follow suit before long. Why? I can get into deregulation or the price of oil here but I won’t. It’s consumer behavior as stated before. Consider yourself lucky that you have different avenue’s to explore, say architectural photography. Don’t get me wrong, I feel for you. But change is necessary to survive. I lost some good friends in this industry due to lay off’s because of outsourcing. If the job can be done cheaper and that’s what the general public wants, cheap tickets, then so be it. But it comes at a price. It’s a mentality that you can’t change. In my industry, the FAA are the watch dogs. Guess what. They failed. More then once too. So can I change my job to fit the times? Not easily. I make a pretty good living without having a formal education, but I’m paying the price for it because of seniority. It’s a seniority based industry, and if I want to stay on day shift, I just hope I don’t have to go somewhere else and start all over again on graves. I’ve been doing this job too long to do something else, my choosing. So now overhaul gets outsourced to people doing the same work with less training, less certificates, less pay and less drug and alcohol restrictions. Does the public care about that? Not as long as they get the cheap fair. Low Cost Carrier. We hear that a lot in our meetings. Everyone (all airlines) are trying to keep up with the LCC’s. Well the industry watch dog just got caught with their hand in the cookie jar. What does that mean for me? I just hope that my company can keep up with the changes fast enough. So far they have... at the cost of fellow workers. Now that aircraft overhaul is being done overseas, guess how much oversight is being done by the feds (FAA), not enough. Not until they (third party contractors) start splashing aircraft into the ground. We have a saying about the ways the feds do business: no change without death. I think I’m rambling now. I’ve been wanting to cut and paste a lot the post’s here because I can relate to the outsourcing part of it. But I have to admit, I’m one of those dads on the sideline taking pics of my 6 and 9 year olds at the soccer, baseball, tai kwon do, and basketball events. Are there professionals snapping photos there too? Not to my knowledge. I’m really the only one out there with a DSLR. But after reading this thread I’ll sure keep an eye out for them and make sure I have some conversation with them. I’m sure that won’t happen until later. I don’t give out photos or plan too from the games. Maybe a candid photo of a neighbors kid that turned out spectacular.
I had a lot I wanted to say while I was reading this thread and I know I have rambled here, but I just wanted to say, don’t let these guys get to you, you seem to have a good heart and a good head, put it to good use where PWAC aren’t a factor, but you have that figured out already. Good luck.
BTW KEEP FLYING!!! I still fly and put my wife and kids on these airplanes so don't let the ramblings of an semi old timer scare you.
http://www.happyvalleyphotography.com
I think thats the thing. Look for other avenues, or take photos that are so much better than the amateurs that people simply have to get your photos.
I see too many events photos that are generic in the extreme. Too much focus on quantity rather than quality.
If you are taking general compositions, then you can't be surprised when an amateur achieves the same thing. Equipment these days is available to everyone.
The phrase 'all of the equipment, none of the talent' springs to mind for a lot of people. Put simply you should be able to take great photos if someone took away all of your equipment away and only left you with an SLR body and a basic 50mm prime.
There more cheapos that are out there with no talent, the more you should stand out, if you stand out.
My Smugmug gallery
Pentax K10D
Canon 60D
Damn! All this time I thought we were talking about Parents With Athletic Children!! NOW I get it! What a dolt.
Natural selection is responsible for every living thing that exists.
D3s, D500, D5300, and way more glass than the wife knows about.
http://www.happyvalleyphotography.com
We both shot the same game.
Lets look at the first PWAC "Pro With A Camera"
He makes a living doing this.
This is his website.
To see his shots you will have to drill down thru his links...
http://www.jaydyerphoto.com/
View Images / Baseball / Middle School / D1D Valley Point VS New Hope 5-6-08
He posted 219 shots from this game.
Now lets look at the second"PWAC", Me, the "Parent With A Camera"
Giving everything away for free.
I posted 59 shots from that game.
This was a championship game. The 1st Championship in any sport for this 2yr old school. My son does not play on this team, but he did last year as an 8th grader. We went to watch his friends play. I happened to have my camera with me. I only shot my sons old team.
http://EDH.smugmug.com/gallery/4881856_io2Cc/1/291435627_Mh8Tn
Should I stop what I'm doing?
My only suggestion would be to get rid of the ugly "G" on the side bar:puke
Seriously...your shots are look much sharper and better composed
THWG ...11-1
Part of what wins here is Smugmug. Trying to look at the pro's images sure makes you appreciate how easy and nice it is to view things on Smugmug.
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Keith Tharp.com - Champion Photo
Giving them away for free - Yes
You asked.
Nikon D4, Nikon D3, Nikon D3
Nikon 14-24 f2.8, Nikon 24-70 f2.8, Nikon 70-200 f2.8 VR II, Nikon 50 f1.8, Nikon 85 f1.4
Nikon 300 f2.8 VR, Nikon 200-400 f4.0 VR II, Nikon 600 f4.0 II, TC-1.4, TC 1.7, TC 2.0
(1) SB-800, (2) SB-900, (4) Multi Max Pocket Wizards
Yeah, I had reservations about posting to this as it has become a bit of a monster. But I thought I had something new, in that I had a good example of a "Pro" that doesn't shoot like one.
Yes, I agree completely. It's not just a comparison of the difference in photo quality, it is a comparison of website quality. and Smugmug blows the other guys site out of the water.
If this were a courtroom and all the judge expected was a yes or no answer you would be "the Man", but here we can give an answer with an explaination as to why you say what you do. Could you please elaborate? Thanks
Nikon D4, Nikon D3, Nikon D3
Nikon 14-24 f2.8, Nikon 24-70 f2.8, Nikon 70-200 f2.8 VR II, Nikon 50 f1.8, Nikon 85 f1.4
Nikon 300 f2.8 VR, Nikon 200-400 f4.0 VR II, Nikon 600 f4.0 II, TC-1.4, TC 1.7, TC 2.0
(1) SB-800, (2) SB-900, (4) Multi Max Pocket Wizards
I think that's what this whole thread has been about and hashed and rehashed to death.
I am not gonna get into the whole PWAC issue, but the Pro website you showed was designed by a Company I used to use, WD Webb/Morephotos
$250 for the basic web desgin and you couldnt customize it. Also, whenever you had more than 2500 pictures uploaded your monthly price went from $50 to anywhere in the $200 per month range. My point being that SMUGMUG rocks!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As far as the PWACs, all we are doing is :deadhorse
all the best
\Chris
:whip
WWW.LONGISLANDIMAGE.COM
After reading through this thread , I am actually looking at things a bit differently .
I am "1 of those dad's" that is out there with his camera every game , taking photos of his daughters' team , and giving away photos to the coaches/parents .
You know what happened though ?? The coach is paying me or my pictures of his daughter pitching for them to look at mechanically .
Let me get to the story behind this ..
A few years ago , I was at a tournament for my daughter and purchased some photos of her that a pro was selling . After me just looking in awe at the photos , I started asking him questions , and he was very eagerly informing me about what would work . From that point , I wanted to invest/learn so I could photograph my daughter on my own , lived reading the internet , and even took a college course , which I followed up on recently , to help my new-found hobby and possibly get photos close to his quality.
Now , I have to look at it in 2 ways . First , will the pro loose business from the team my daughter is on ?? No , because they very seldom purchase photos from pros at these events , and mater of fact , I very seldom see pros at these events anymore (this weekend in Forest Park Illinois at an ASA "A" tournament , I think I was alone in picture taking)
Have pros abandoned this type of work due to parents taking pics on their own ????
Here is a different way of looking at it ...
Has anyone had to take their car in for repair work ??? You get an estimate on car repair , and get your jaw dropping price in front of you , it is tough ...
Now , just think if you had a friend that is a backyard mechanic , and will fix your car for just a case of beer , or maybe for 1/100th of the cost from a pro mechanic . What would you do ??? Do you feel guilty about the mechanic not getting more work ?? No , because you know that there are others that have no worries about paying them , and just that you are lucky enough to know someone .
Now I don't offer pictures I take to the parents , but if they ask , I do supply them with photos that usually make them happy . And if they offer me money , I only charge them enough to cover my cost , due to my love of doing so .
Back to the pictures . I give some pictures away to the parents/coaches to help them out , not to make profit . In my mind , that does not break any rules , or take away from a pro at 1 of these events . This is just the times of progress that we live in . We are at a time where saving money is a necessity , not an option , and if it means getting a picture of their son/daughter in a lesser quality than a pro , then do it . If anyone says they would do otherwise , well , they would be fibbing
Like another poster said , with technology , the pros have to offer something out of the ordinary to keep success .
All I have to say , thank he I am not a pro/carrer minded photographer . It is tough out there .
And to the OP . You have done really well to keep an open mind in this thread .
http://wildwally.smugmug.com/