Is it smart to jump ship to Nikon?

Jeremy Winterberg · January 11, 2009

I'm not really satisfied with canon's auto focus. Granted I have a cheaper camera, but all I see in my pictures is it focusing on something I didn't tell it to focus on, and the images are full of noise. (yes, I have the focus point set to single shot and to the center dot only).

My question, is: Should I sell all of my Canon equipment (equivalent to roughly $2100), and head over to Nikon and try out the D80 or D90...

Or, should I sell my junky lenses and buy nicer glass to see if that helps...

or.. should I sell my XSi body and a few lenses, and buy a nicer Canon Body, like a 40D, 50D or even a 5D mark II...

My friend has a D80, and his pictures end up looking way nicer than mine. And he doesn't even do photoshop work to it.

I need a camera that will work really well for Weddings and Portraits. I only have $70 saved up for new camera equipment (I just bought a new lens and flash and bat grip... I'm poor now:thumb). Which is why I need to sell some things.

Downside to going to Nikon, is I wont get the really nice Canon Dealer Employee Purchase Program anymore.

HELP ME!!!

Tee Why · January 11, 2009

Can you post a typical image that you are describing with the exif data and what lens you are using? Is it possible that one lens is mis focusing with the camera?

Noise is not related to focus and usually has to do with exposure and ISO. If it's too noisy, assuming proper exposure in camera, going to a D90 may be an even split and going to a D80 would probably make it worse.

bosco0633 · January 11, 2009

It sounds like staying with canon is the way to go for you. I really like nikon and would say that you wouldnt regret going over to nikon.

But you have no cash, you already have alot of cash invested in canon and you get an employee discount, so I would say sticking with what you have might be the best idea.

but d90 is such an amazing camera you wouldnt regret it. And from what I have read focusing on the nikon is a little better.

Art Scott · January 11, 2009

First of all you need to determine where the faulty focus fault lies.....is the body, lens or you........I am not always setting my camera for center focus point....it is off to where I need it or I manually focus (which is most of the time)........it very well could be that you got a bad body or lens...............also think of everything you will need to re-learn....as the 2 systems do things differently...................

sherijohnson · January 11, 2009

I don't know if your Canon camera can be set to use the back focus function? Maybe someone else knows. Once I set my Canon to do this, it solved all of my focusing issues like you were describing.

Jeremy Winterberg · January 11, 2009

Well, I get it with all my pictures, no matter what lens. So it may be the body.

Heres a picture for example.

I was focused in my view finder on the Battery Grip BG-E5 on the right, and it focused on grip near the Canon on the left.

I know I have ALOT of money invested, but its all invested on crappy equipment.

Before I bought this camera, I SERIOUSLY considered getting the D60, because it had roughly the same specs, and it was ALOT cheaper. The sales person was very bias and a die hard canon girl, and at the time the XSi seemed like a really nice "professional" DSLR camera (this is my first one).

Shortly after purchasing it, I realised, that hmmm its not even close to professional, in fact its similar to a point and shoot camera except much more expensive.

in the picture above, you cant really see the noise so heres another picture that shows the noise a little better. You cant really see it at smaller sizes so, heres an XL version of it from my smug mug.

Look at the bottom of the lens, its full of noise, and it bugs me, this picture also shows the faulty focus. the focus on this one was meant to be on the autofocus/manual focus switch. Not the rim of the lens.

Also, I dont really mind not having the employee discount. It only saves like $100 on some things. I basically get 10% under dealer cost... not much in most cases.

Jeremy Winterberg · January 11, 2009

sherijohnson wrote:

I don't know if your Canon camera can be set to use the back focus function? Maybe someone else knows. Once I set my Canon to do this, it solved all of my focusing issues like you were describing.

I know this camera pretty well, and I've read the entire manual, and I never saw anything about Back Focus Function? I may be wrong though.

Jeremy Winterberg · January 11, 2009

Another thing I CAN NOT STAND!!! about this camera... It the noise the shutter makes when you take a picture. its seriously like "Duh SHINNNGG!!"

And, I've used my friend's D80 enough that I wouldn't have a problem switching over.

Tee Why · January 11, 2009

Looks like a back focusing issue. As for the noise, if the exposure was off and you corrected the exposure, it seems reasonable. The D90 is about on par with the Canon, since the switch to CMOS sensors, but the D80 should be even noisier than the XSi if you shoot RAW.

I think if you are not having fun with the gear, a switch may be just the thing you need. I personally think the D90 may be a better option than the D80 though.

Toshido · January 11, 2009

I am surprised that nobody is asking if you are focusing using the center point then re compositioning the picture.
I was definately at fault for doing this until i read an article on smug mug explaining why that will aloways give you misfocused pictures.

Reason i am asking is you mentioned that you use single point, middle point for focusing. Yet what you say should be in focu in those shots is not in the middle of the frame.

Wish I had the link to the article but I am sure others can find it easily enough for you.

Robinivich · January 11, 2009

If you just generally aren't satisfied with the gear, and you're willing to fork out the money, then maybe you should. I don't think the equipment is particularly to blame, but if you're frustrated and think a change would be good, your state of mind might be helped.

I gather you've shot a fair bit with your friend's D80, which system makes you more comfortable? Disregard any feelings about your current level of equipment, I'm talking about interface, which camera has buttons that are in the right place, which direction do you like your zoom ring to turn in, etc.

As for the issues you mention, AF and noise can both be at least mitigated, and perhaps outright resolved. It'd help if you gave a rundown on how you're going about focusing, what subjects, what lenses, and what settings you're using. I gather you have a promaster-branded tamron 17-50 f2.8, a 50 f1.8, 75-300, and the 18-55 IS. None of these lenses are particular rockstars when it comes to focusing, but they shouldn't be causing you much grief in day to day shooting. The 50mm I've used and know that it often misses shots wide open, but by bracketing (taking a few shots while changing focus) you'll be able to overcome even that. There's also the possibility that your body is out of calibration. There are several ways to check for this, and just let us know in a reply and I'll hunt down some links.

Something else that a lot of people don't realize is that the AF sensor is bigger than the viewfinder symbol might make one believe. I can't seem to find a diagram for the XSi's focusing sensor placement off hand, but it can be a bit misleading, since they aren't pinprick areas that you focus with. Toshido also makes an excellent point, if you lock focus, then change, even slightly, the camera's position or framing, that movement can throw off focus.

As for noise, when you're shooting indoors and cranking up the ISO, be mindful of in camera settings like High ISO NR if you shoot JPEGs. And if you shoot RAW, even easier, just crank on a bunch of chroma noise reduction (even maxed out, I've never felt this hurts my images). Also critical is getting your white balance correct. ISO 1600 and bad tungsten lighting produce often ugly results directly out of camera, but once you've balanced the colour temperature, and removed chroma noise, most of the objectionable stuff will be gone.

Personally I just added an EF 70-200 F4L to my camera bag. That makes my 4th USM lens, but my first telephoto one, and I continue to be astonished at how big of a difference it is. I simply never knew how well my camera focuses! You might find a well placed upgrade could cure the situation

NeilL · January 11, 2009

How were you holding your mouth?:D

Yeah, stuff like this gets one a bit emotional, of course. Especially if money is tight, and your gear represents a significant investment. Investment of expectations of satisfaction and pleasure, too.

But chill, and you will "enjoy" the problems more. I don't wanna preach to you, but sometimes technology, just like people, doesn't turn out to be what you thought it promised. And it's stubborn. However, there are certain basic rules it obeys, and so must you, if you know them.

There's a lot to be said for experience in making relationships with sophisticated electronic-optical gear work, just as in romantic relationships. How much experience do you have of this camera and dSLRs in general? Maybe you have to grow with this camera? A lot of us here are in that situation, and your problems sound quite familiar.

Is your friend with the D80 experienced, more experienced than you? You talk of you yourself using his Nikon, have you given him your Canon and let him shoot a few hundred frames? Then checked if his problems are the same as yours? Or ask an expert to do this (local camera store?).

However, there'd be a big hullabaloo if all Canon cameras, in everybody's hands, produced substandard pictures like these you show here. There isn't.

Hire a Canon L lens or two and see how your body performs. It might well be that some of your gear is defective. You can then make appropriate decisions.

I really don't think in the crop factor range that any Nikon (or Canon!) is better than the 40D.

Take this as an opportunity to get experience which will stand you in good stead in the future.

eichert12 · January 11, 2009

I can't speak to the noise issue but I was having similar focusing frustrations with Canon gear a little while back. After reading a bunch of articles and threads on dgrin I found that most of the people I came across were manually choosing their focus point rather then letting the camera do it. I would always fight with the camera trying to get it to focus on the right thing and would often put the thing I wanted to focus on in the middle of my frame so the camera would focus on it and hold down the shutter to maintain that focus point while I reframed and then take the picture. I read that this often leads to focus problems which was very surprising because I thought that's how everyone did it. Since that time I've been manually choosing which focus point within the camera I want to use and have been much happier with my results.

The only downside I've found is that it can be difficult to adjust your focus point quick enough to catch unexpected shots. I think with more practice that will become less of a problem as well.

Cheers,
Steve

caroline · January 11, 2009

Hi
Could someone please explain what this function is ? I've ggoled it and checked out my manuals - 20D & 40D and cant find any reference to it.
Thanks,
Caroline

sherijohnson wrote:

I don't know if your Canon camera can be set to use the back focus function? Maybe someone else knows. Once I set my Canon to do this, it solved all of my focusing issues like you were describing.

Jeremy Winterberg · January 11, 2009

Toshido wrote:

I am surprised that nobody is asking if you are focusing using the center point then re compositioning the picture.
I was definately at fault for doing this until i read an article on smug mug explaining why that will aloways give you misfocused pictures.

Reason i am asking is you mentioned that you use single point, middle point for focusing. Yet what you say should be in focu in those shots is not in the middle of the frame.

Wish I had the link to the article but I am sure others can find it easily enough for you.

I guess I worded that wrong, I usually use the center point. but sometimes I have to switch to one of the other points for composition reasoning. In those pictures I had to switch, even though composition wasn't much in these pictures.

divamum · January 11, 2009

I switched to an xsi a couple of months back. I considered going to a 40d - I had, in fact, EXPECTED to get 40d - but the light weight and general handling of the xsi won me over. The cameras are in many ways comparable (in some, identical) and I felt the xsi was more comfortable in my hand and was willing to forego the additional features that the 40d offers.

I love the xsi HOWEVER... it can be a noise hog. It HATES being underexposed and you *will* see noise if you don't give it enough light. However, needing to be more mindful of my exposures is, for me, probably a *good* thing since it really makes me think about my settings before I shoot; I'd say I've improved significantly as a photographer by having to do so.

I can't speak to your focusing issue, except to say that my xsi has been dead on most of the time, even with some of my lesser lenses and on "moving targets", so perhaps it is an issue unique to your copy, because I haven't found it a problem with mine

Here are some shots with the xsi - the first three were all taken with the Canon 50mm 1.8.

(minor pp to minimise the background and boost colours, but nothing major iircc- I don't believe I even ran it through noiseware)

This was shot jpg SOOC for one of the challenges - I had the jpg settings on the xsi set to sharpen, and I think you'll agree it did a spectacular job!

This one was at iso 800 and, even with that, the noise isn't too bad - I don't think I ran it through Noiseware because that actually took away more detail than I wanted in the window lettering...

This was taken with the Tamron 17-50 (and I believe your Promaster is that same lens rebadged, if I'm not mistaken)

I have noticed that with the Tamron I have to select my focus point very carefully (especially since I like to shoot open a lot of the time, thus DOF-related mis-focusing can be an issue as well). This was one of my first outings with the Tammy so I'm not sure I nailed it 100%, but that was definitely my fault, not the camera's or the lense's.

Personally, you could'nt pay me to give my xsi up -especially now I've got the Tamron and thus finally some decent, fast-focusing glass - but ymmv, of course. Good luck with your decision!

ETA two more shots - before/after of a not-brilliantly-exposed picture (the light was terrible and there were limits to what I could do with the ambient on offer)

Here's the original SOOC ISO 800 as shot in raw - when I lifted the exposure and fill light that thing was NOISY!!

And here's the processed image (including work in noiseware) - not too bad in the end

NeilL · January 11, 2009

Jeremy Winterberg wrote:

I guess I worded that wrong, I usually use the center point. but sometimes I have to switch to one of the other points for composition reasoning. In those pictures I had to switch, even though composition wasn't much in these pictures.

So is the image sharp where you put the focus point? Use DPP or ZoomBrowser to see where your focus point was and if the image is sharp there. If not, were you hand holding? What was the shutter speed and aperture? Such things can affect image sharpness. We're aiming in the dark without knowing more from you.

baldmountain · January 11, 2009

Jeremy Winterberg wrote:

I was focused in my view finder on the Battery Grip BG-E5 on the right, and it focused on grip near the Canon on the left.

Manual focus or auto focus? The reason I ask is if you are manual focusing then you may need to adjust the eyepiece diopter since there are parts of the picture that are in focus but not what you focused on. Related to this is when was the last time you had your eyes checked?

If autofocus, where is the focus point set? Is it where you think it is?

What is the exif data? If you are shooting very high ISO to get high shutter speed in lower light situations then you will get lots of noise. This is one of the places where camera manufacturers will let you hang yourself. My old Nikon D50 will shoot at 1600ISO but to me the pictures are SO noisy that I consider them unacceptable. ISO800 is the max workable ISO.

jbakerphoto · January 11, 2009

What AF mode do you have it in? AI SERVO will not lock focus and let you recompose. One Shot and AI Focus will. You might want to check that....

Pindy · January 11, 2009

I'm not seeing noise in your 50 f/1.8 picture, down the bottom by the back cap, I'm seeing saturation from your having a too-warm white balance. I think you'll find if you cooled the WB off, most of that, if not all, would go away. Make sure you're not too close to the minimum focusing distance. This will disappoint every time, as soon as you reach that threshold.

On the AF side, I don't think there's anything to recommend a lower-end Nikon over a lower-end Canon or vice versa. Both do their jobs similarly unless there's a failure, typically a front- or back-focussing lens. You don't start reaping the benefits of Nikon AF until you hit the D300, in my opinion. I would look to another cause than that you're just not happy.

NeilL · January 11, 2009

unclejon wrote:

What AF mode do you have it in? AI SERVO will not lock focus and let you recompose. One Shot and AI Focus will. You might want to check that....

Good point, and you can't lock focus and recompose with some lenses, eg WA.

sherijohnson · January 11, 2009

caroline wrote:

Hi
Could someone please explain what this function is ? I've ggoled it and checked out my manuals - 20D & 40D and cant find any reference to it.
Thanks,
Caroline

Here is the link to the info about this feature. http://www.usa.canon.com/dlc/controller?act=GetArticleAct&articleID=2286&productID=229&articleTypeID=5

NeilL · January 11, 2009

sherijohnson wrote:

Here is the link to the info about this feature. http://www.usa.canon.com/dlc/controller?act=GetArticleAct&articleID=2286&productID=229&articleTypeID=5

Excellent, thanks.

clap

Jeremy Winterberg · January 11, 2009

I'll try to answer as many questions as possible.

NeilL wrote:

So is the image sharp where you put the focus point? Use DPP or ZoomBrowser to see where your focus point was and if the image is sharp there. If not, were you hand holding? What was the shutter speed and aperture? Such things can affect image sharpness. We're aiming in the dark without knowing more from you.

No, like I said... its not focused on what I had it on.

I was hand holding, but I was at I believe 1/60s for a shutter speed, so it shouldn't matter much. f/2.8, ISO 400, 1/60s.

... I'll try that back focusing thing, I always wondered what that Custom Function did, I guess I dont know my camera as well as I want to think I do.

I try to keep my ISO around 400 or lower for inside stuff, then I use my flash. I try to stay away from 800 and 1600 because all I see in my pictures is noise. or at least what looks like noise to me.

I use one shot for everything except moving subjects, then I switch to AI Focus.

I guess the only logical thing to do is, sell the lenses I dont use, 50mm and 18-55mm, try to get as much cash out of those, and then save up for a newer body, or better glass.

Anyone want to trade a 40D or 50D for my camera with bat grip, those lenses, and two batteries?

I know some of you have cameras sitting around as spares that you never use!

Jeremy Winterberg · January 11, 2009

Oh yeah, Just had my eyes checked mid december and just got new glasses Xmas eve

. And yes, I was wearing them. I have a very light prescription, things get a little blurry at a distance... close up I'm fine. just past 10 feet or so it gets blurry.

caroline · January 11, 2009

sherijohnson wrote:

Here is the link to the info about this feature. http://www.usa.canon.com/dlc/controller?act=GetArticleAct&articleID=2286&productID=229&articleTypeID=5

Thanks very much Sheri, I saw this link when I googled for it but didn't actually check it out, very interesting indeed.

Caroline

sherijohnson · January 11, 2009

After I changed this custom setting, I felt I had a comfortable control level of my focusing. I set mine so that the back focus button does the focusing and the shutter button handles the exposure lock (halfway). It's working for me. Before that it wasn't working so well and I was having similar thoughts about my camera.

Pindy · January 11, 2009

sherijohnson wrote:

After I changed this custom setting, I felt I had a comfortable control level of my focusing. I set mine so that the back focus button does the focusing and the shutter button handles the exposure lock (halfway). It's working for me. Before that it wasn't working so well and I was having similar thoughts about my camera.

We're running the risk of confusion using the term "back focus". You seem to be talking about the CF that moves the AF activation to the rear AE-Lock button (* or in the case of newer Canons, a new "AF ON" button). Back-focus is used to describe a camera/lens combination that errantly focuses farther away than the user intended.

Elaine · January 11, 2009

Pindy wrote:

We're running the risk of confusion using the term "back focus". You seem to be talking about the CF that moves the AF activation to the rear AE-Lock button (* or in the case of newer Canons, a new "AF ON" button). Back-focus is used to describe a camera/lens combination that errantly focuses farther away than the user intended.

Yes, thank you! It took me awhile to figure out what was being meant by "back focus function." I was thinking...huh? I've never heard of Canon building in a custom function that fixes a back-focusing lens!

Moving the AF function to the back of the camera is indeed an operation that suits many people!

Jeremy Winterberg · January 11, 2009

Pindy wrote:

We're running the risk of confusion using the term "back focus". You seem to be talking about the CF that moves the AF activation to the rear AE-Lock button (* or in the case of newer Canons, a new "AF ON"button). Back-focus is used to describe a camera/lens combination that focuses farther away than the user intended.

Yeah, thats what I was assuming too untill I visited the link she gave. Back-BUTTON Auto Focusing...

So far seems to be working nice.

Anyone know of a good way to get rid of the loud shutter noise other than blocking it out of my mind? Whenever I take pictures around people, they look strangely at me because my camera is so loud.

I never noticed it on the model that I tried out prior to purchasing, but I shortly got tired of it after ohh just about a week. And I've had this camera for 3 months and already want to throw it out the window...

Pindy · January 11, 2009

Jeremy, if I can make a suggestion:

All Canon DSLRs come with the excellent suite of software tools on the CD. The browser (or Imagebrowser—Mac) lets you show the focus mode (AI Servo or One Shot) and the focus point it used. How about showing us a screen capture from one of your bad shots which prove the focus problem using this method?

For example:

Is it smart to jump ship to Nikon?

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