Better Hawk Shots

dlplumer · March 1, 2009

Went back early this morning to see if I could get between their nest and the sahuaro they like to perch on, and eventually they gave me a brief show and I was lucky enough to capture a few. Until someone tells me differently, I am calling these red-shouldered hawks, but in truth I have yet to get a definitive ID.

bfjr · March 1, 2009

All of em

but #1 Killer

and now that I see em Good, Yep Red Shoulder

dlplumer · March 1, 2009

One More
I like playing with PP gradient filters

redleash · March 1, 2009

Much better view now, Dan! I'd vote for Red-Shouldered now too. Great pics!

dlplumer · March 1, 2009

John Sloan says "definitely a red tailed Hawk". Can anyone settle this?

John Slone · March 1, 2009

Great shots, but still have to go with a Red-Tailed hawk. Third shot shows very well the wing the dark blotches on the outer edge of the wing are those of Red-Tailed (Red-Shouldereds should not have that anterior blotch). In the first picture you can clearly see the tail and, it's red and has the white banding only at the top of the tail. If I am not mistaken a Red-Shouldered should have a darker tail and have multiple bands down the tail. And again the belly streaks or banding is in line with a Red-Tailed. I could be wrong but I just went thru Sibley's and it seems to key out as a Red-Tailed. Not to mention Sibley only shows Red-Shouldered to rarely occur in Tucson. Unfotunatley to add to the confusion he does show a record for Tucson area. I have been in AZ for 13 years, Tucson for the last 4 and have yet to see a hawk that I could identify as a Red-Shouldered hawk.

All that being said, I am a snake guy not a bird go so there is a good chance I am incorrect. If by chance it is a Red-Shouldered then you should document it as much as you can and submit it as a photo voucher.

Again, great shots and good luck.

John Slone

Gale · March 1, 2009

Look at that RED tail
I will go with red tail haws

Beautiful pictures also

DsrtVW · March 1, 2009

Red Tails come in so many color morphs but the tail makes it look like a red tail.
Red Tail Dark morph

Red Shouldered Hawk

dlplumer · March 1, 2009

redleash wrote:

Much better view now, Dan! I'd vote for Red-Shouldered now too. Great pics!

I'm leaning that way too Lauren, but I'm still unsure

SavingFlorida · March 1, 2009

I still lean towards RedTailed.. even more so now. I don't see any crescents on the wing tips; and the tail, coloration, and body type don't quite fit what I've seen as Red shouldered. Of course, like I said before, lots of morphs!

I am not sure enough to say that it is a Red Tailed Either, the coloration somehow isn't matching up for me. Do you have Short-tailed Hawks or BroadWinged Hawks out there? Broad Winged hawks look alot like Redtails. In the mean time, I'll do some comparisons, this bothers me now.

Jamie

SavingFlorida · March 1, 2009

Ok, I concede. Red Shouldered Juvenile ...
The belly band isn't actually where it should be for a Red Tailed. The color is darker on your bird than on my local birds, and I don't see any red on the "shoulders" like I often see. BUT, on pg 100 of Sibley's Field Guide Eastern North America It shows something very similar. The red on the tail actually does have some banding (you can barely see it) so this is my final vote.

stevehapp · March 1, 2009

I have no idea whatsoever, dan.

But you have done a fabulous job with these pics..

well done, mate...

Giphsub · March 1, 2009

Great set Dan! You lucky bugger!

John Slone · March 1, 2009

Well one thing to take into consideration, we are talking Southwest not Eastern. And if you look at the range and migratory maps in Sibley's (I have the one for the entire US) you will see Red-Shouldered hawk are infrequently seen in AZ. I am going to assume that by dlpumer's original pic (Saguaro) and his location (Tucson) that there is a very good chance this pic was taken in AZ

, athough it could have been Mexico, or possibly just inside the CA border. One of the many things that say no to Red-Shouldered are the dark blotches on the anterior portion of the underside of the wing (written poorly, sorry). Of all the pictures I have looked at in Sibley's none of them show the Red-Shouldered having that. they all have clean undersides. And California Red-Shouldered's (which I assume is what would show up in AZ) should have orange undersides.

Again not to say anyone is 100% wrong, just enjoying some lively debate.:D

dlplumer · March 1, 2009

SavingFlorida wrote:

Ok, I concede. Red Shouldered Juvenile ...
The belly band isn't actually where it should be for a Red Tailed. The color is darker on your bird than on my local birds, and I don't see any red on the "shoulders" like I often see. BUT, on pg 100 of Sibley's Field Guide Eastern North America It shows something very similar. The red on the tail actually does have some banding (you can barely see it) so this is my final vote.

Jamie, don't quit on me now

Seriously, I appreciate your knowledge and help, but between the experts on this thread, we still do not have consensus.

dlplumer · March 1, 2009

stevehapp wrote:

I have no idea whatsoever, dan.

But you have done a fabulous job with these pics..

well done, mate...

Thanks mate

bfjr · March 1, 2009

Compelling arguments here.
But that is not a West Coast Red Tail

This one is

Now it could be Red Tail Morph Yes
Maybe young Red Tail .............. but no, cause Dan says he's nest building
And a red Tail by color I mean is not a good indicator as you can see from pic above

And Dan will ya just next time you see em just ask em what he is and put this puppy
to rest

John Slone · March 1, 2009

Dan,

Did you see this bird on the NW side of Tucson by chance, up by the Tortallitas maybe?

John

dlplumer · March 1, 2009

John Slone wrote:

Dan,

Did you see this bird on the NW side of Tucson by chance, up by the Tortallitas maybe?

John

No, this bird (family) is nesting right here in my neighborhood (sunrise/campbell area).

John Slone · March 1, 2009

Ok, I have one up here that I see only in the winter that is extremely white. But that bird seems to only winter here and then moves on during the summer.

SavingFlorida · March 1, 2009

since you really wanted me to continue my antagonistic ways.. I now rescind my final answer in order to show you this

http://www.flickr.com/photos/cosmicsailors/406160492/

It's a photo of a Red Tailed Hawk taken in NORTHERN California.. same pattern, coloration and within reasonable distance for expected variation.

As far as the behavior is concerned, while doing research on caracara, I learned quickly to never judge a birds age based on behaviors. I had birds in juvenal (first) plumage grabbing sticks in what appeared to be nesting behaviors... truth was they were just playing with them. Also, the age of breeding does not always correspond with plumage phase. Three year old caracara can still be in juvenile plumage and begin breeding. I'm sure other species with drawn out maturity also do the same.
Since color variations are genetic, and since populations overlap it's not totally surprising to me that you would see a pattern from North California in Arizona.. or vice versa.

Not trying to be a showoff or say I'm right.. just think I might be for these reasons!

dlplumer · March 2, 2009

Thank you Jamie. So you are quite sure it is a red tailed hawk, and it sounds as if John Sloan tends to agree. What say you Ben, given all of this data and expert assessment? Personally, I have no stake, nor expertise in the matter, but I would like to know what it is.

Hey, maybe our amiable Mod can help us out. Any idea Harry? Or Maestro, or Ric or Pyry.

Red tailed, or red shouldered....or maybe it's a harris hawk?

bfjr · March 2, 2009

Ok seems I'm been out voted and Jamies link/ rebuttal is
quite similar to your birdy

Still nothing like the 1 posted nez pa, but there are
quite a few varieties / morphs of this species

Guaranteed it's not A Harris :lol4

I still think you just ask em when ya see em

redleash · March 2, 2009

Via a Google search, I found some shots very similar to yours that made me think Red SHOULDERED. I went to the Cornell site and their map is pretty clear that Red SHOULDERED Hawks are not likely to be found in AZ. It also says they favor deciduous or mixed deciduous-conifer woodlands. Here's the link:
http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/bna/species/107/articles/introduction

The Red TAILED Hawk is all over N. America, and Cornell says there are 16 subspecies!

There are some really good shots of both birds at the National Zoo web site:
http://nationalzoo.si.edu/ConservationAndScience/MigratoryBirds/ .

When I look back at your #1 and #4 photos, the red tail is pretty noticeable. All things considered, I'm changing my vote to Red-TAILED Hawk.

Let's see some more, Dan!!

Jack'll do · March 2, 2009

Via a Google search, I found some shots very similar to yours that made me think Red SHOULDERED.

Phew! At first I thought Lauren was upsetting the apple cart here.

For what it's worth I think Red-TAILED (but then I'm no expert by any means). At any rate, excellent series Dan. I've captured a lot of great informational links from this discourse.

dlplumer · March 2, 2009

bfjr wrote:

Ok seems I'm been out voted and Jamies link/ rebuttal is
quite similar to your birdy

Still nothing like the 1 posted nez pa, but there are
quite a few varieties / morphs of this species

Guaranteed it's not A Harris :lol4

I still think you just ask em when ya see em

dlplumer · March 2, 2009

OK, I believe we have consensus and confirmation (Ira Runyan) that this is a red tailed hawk

raptorcaptor · March 2, 2009

I think this bird is a hybrid red-tailed/red-shouldered. It has characteristics of both species, but not conclusive of either. No patagial marks for a red-tailed hawk, but definately the tail.

A more conclusive id would have to made from the bird's call.

Since the bird is gathering nesting material you should take a look and see what it's mate looks like!

bfjr · March 2, 2009

raptorcaptor wrote:

I think this bird is a hybrid red-tailed/red-shouldered. It has characteristics of both species, but not conclusive of either. No patagial marks for a red-tailed hawk, but definately the tail.

A more conclusive id would have to made from the bird's call.

Since the bird is gathering nesting material you should take a look and see what it's mate looks like!

Ok there ya have it Dan.
Go get some sound gear and bring us a Wav File

redleash · March 2, 2009

Maybe it's a new species altogether--and it will be named after Dan!

raptorcaptor · March 2, 2009

Don't need to record it, just hear it. A red-shouldered hawk is going to be quite vocal, especially if it is nesting. You can find it's call online.

A red-tailed hawk is going sound exactly what you think a raptor should sound like as it is the sound that has been used in most movies( for all raptors

)

I'm starting to lean toward the red-tailed hawk crowd!

Better Hawk Shots

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