I'm sorry you feel this way Samir rotates with multiple windows open, and I can't replicate the problems using his workflow. When we are given precise, repeatable steps we can fix a problem (and we do this day in, day out). We don't like it that you and Samir are unhappy, and we would like to be able to make the tool work well for you. Stay tuned for Sean .
That's ridiculous. Even I could & can exactly replicate his steps given the details he told all of us. It was very simple, and I know exactly why he does it that way. In fact, on several occasions we've been told to have two windows open for this type of work. (cropping, watermarking, other tools) There's nothing complex about it. He has his left window open for rotating left, and the right one open for rotating right. This makes complete sense, because otherwise (if you do these steps separately) you have no idea when is safe to go back and rotate some that need rotating the opposite direction. Why could someone not replicate that? If you have a gallery you need to make public fairly quickly, it seems a very smart idea to simply open two windows and do the two different rotations in two different windows. Then you're supposedly finished, you walk away & let Smug do the work. Otherwise, you rotate the lefts. Then you wait hours & hope they're finished before going in & rotating the rights. [NOTE: this is not how I've solved the problem in the past, but I'm saying why not? How I've solved it was a big waste of time & made me unable to open a gallery as fast]
If you're saying this absolutely shouldn't be done (using 2 windows), then tell people that & say why. It should not be a problem in theory, because you're only choosing certain files for the rotation. If the Smug rotation system doesn't adhere to rotating only files that are chosen for each rotation, then we have a problem. And when I said random, I did not mean infrequent or un-replicable.
Exactly - what we really need is repeatable steps to recreate a problem and then we can fix 'em. I asked Sean to reach out to you because I'm confident he can help you with using our rotate tool in a way that won't cause you to have issues. I hope you'll take advantage of it!
How many ways can you use the rotate tool? I'm pretty sure I know when a portrait is lying on its side to the right that I need to select it once & have the "left rotate" checked, and hit "rotate". If we all need individual lessons like that, we're really in trouble. The only other way to use the tool besides doing one rotation & then waiting a long time before going in to do another rotation, is to do it like Samir does & have 2 windows. I almost never need to do 180 degrees-- same as him. So it's two choices-- rotate left and leave and then come back later to rotate right, or use two windows. If one way doesn't work, just tell us.
How many ways can you use the rotate tool? I'm pretty sure I know when a portrait is lying on its side to the right that I need to select it once & have the "left rotate" checked, and hit "rotate". If we all need individual lessons like that, we're really in trouble. The only other way to use the tool besides doing one rotation & then waiting a long time before going in to do another rotation, is to do it like Samir does & have 2 windows. I almost never need to do 180 degrees-- same as him. So it's two choices-- rotate left and leave and then come back later to rotate right, or use two windows. If one way doesn't work, just tell us.
Hi Anna Lisa, you can rotate left, right, or 180, or you can 'mirror' it (less common, for sure). Samir uses two windows as he has some images that need left rotation and some right. Please take Sean up on his offer - we really want to help you
Hi Anna Lisa, you can rotate left, right, or 180, or you can 'mirror' it (less common, for sure). Samir uses two windows as he has some images that need left rotation and some right. Please take Sean up on his offer - we really want to help you
Really??!! Didn't I just say all that? Post #63... and the post you just quoted. Heavens. I do think I know about L & R after yrs. on Smug. Anyway. You click on the button. Not too many ways to go about that!
Really??!! Didn't I just say all that? Post #63... and the post you just quoted. Heavens. I do think I know about L & R after yrs. on Smug. Anyway. You click on the button. Not too many ways to go about that!
OOK So I'm confused as to what you are mentioning two posts above - let's do this please, so avoid any further confusion - let Sean help you, personally ok? We really do want to make you and the rotate tool happy together!
OK, I'm done offering you any more helpful solutions. If you want to fight a tool that doesn't work the way you want and sneer at those who offer you other solutions, that's all fine with me. Have at it. I'm done.
Hey John, I'm sorry for my tone. As you can tell I've never been this frustrated before and am under tremendous pressure that I haven't had to deal with all year. But I didn't intend to take any of that out on you. You've always been helpful, and I always value your input. Friends?
OOK So I'm confused as to what you are mentioning two posts above - let's do this please, so avoid any further confusion - let Sean help you, personally ok? We really do want to make you and the rotate tool happy together!
I've been away, and am not uploading anything pertinent right now anyway, so that's why a personal call today would have made little sense. I also don't want to learn something that we should all know, cuz I then feel obligated to come here & explain to everyone. And, Ok-- Andy, I was being sarcastic when I first said "How many ways can you use the rotate tool?"-- and I thought that was obvious! But I guess not. I was trying to say that the rotate tool is very simple. I do not see any ways to make a real mistake with it! And so what was/is making me upset with this whole thread is that you, representing SmugMug, are saying that I/we don't know how to use the tool correctly; that we need a personal lesson on the correct way to use it. I take issue with that, because there is really no way to use it wrongly that I can think of. And if there is, and Smug knows this, then put a note on the rotate page instructing everyone here what the pitfalls are! I guarantee you there is nothing I'm doing wrong. I'm doing the only thing you can really do with the tool-- I select the photos I want rotated left 90 degrees. I make sure "Left" is selected. I look to see how many photos are going to rotate, just to be sure the number appears correct. Then hit "rotate" & am taken back to my gallery. There is really nothing else I could do. I never use "mirror" (although it's clear what it does) and I very rarely need 180 degrees. I mean, how hard can this be? It's not. It should just work. I'm an artist. I do know what 90 degrees and 180 degrees are. Plus, your arrow symbols make it quite obvious.
Now that I've been here a long time, I do know one thing: you cannot count on being able to go right back into that same gallery and correctly rotate to the right if you've just done the left ones. It almost certainly messes up if you do that. Smug could certainly benefit from putting a warning about that on the Rotate page, but it seems Smug is much happier making people run to forums or doing trial & error for ages before they will put a helpful note on the tool page. Sooo..... knowing this, I wait. I leave the gallery and don't come back until half a day later at least, if I need some rotated the other direction. (Most of the time, I only need left rotation anyway... fortunately!!) I also know that you must wait in general. You don't go back in 10 min., see that the pics haven't rotated yet, and re-do it. (learned the hard way on that as well.... a "safe-wait" timeframe should also be included on the rotate page, so others can avoid this guesswork).
So-- I hope you see what I mean... that I just don't see a possibility for doing something "incorrectly" as you've been stating. It pains me that you think people need personal help with something this simple. And if there is this possibility (of goofing so badly), then every person reading this needs the same instruction. As I tried to state in Post #63-- there is one other "method" (although one would still, obviously, be using the actual tool the same exact way because there's no other way to use it!!). That method is what Samir does -- instead of going back into the gallery a day later to do the second round of rotations (photos needing to go the other direction), he simply has two windows open, a seemingly simple, smart concept that should be very easy to understand. He selects photos that need to rotate 90 degrees left, in his left window. Hits rotate. Selects photos that need to rotate right in his right window. Hits rotate. Perfect. Done. Now he can walk away & everything should be correctly rotated in a few hours.
That's it. Now if that last method is problematic for some reason, just tell everyone, because everyone should know. A private call about it isn't going to help the rest of us. As I said, I'd never thought of doing it that way, but it sure makes sense. Anyone reading this who has wanted to speed up the rotate process will want to try it, as I do.
So there's only one problem, and it's not with how I'm incorrectly using a tool that really can only be used one wayanyway (I'm talking in terms of nuts & bolts here, not timeframes & separate windows... I'm saying you select photos, & hit two buttons... there's no other way to do "rotate"). The problem is that sometimes the photos we've chosen to rotate will rotate farther than they were supposed to and end up upside-down instead of in the correct position. Or, they never rotate at all. Someone just needs to accept that this happens and find out why internally rather than telling people they're hitting the two buttons wrong. And that is what's maddening.
How the bulk rotate tool should have been constructed in the first place.
Please read my other response first. This response is to address what the main problem is with this rotate tool's implementation, and how I hope it will be changed someday. (because it would solve a lot of the guesswork and save everyone tons of time in making their galleries public). I said this a long, long time ago. So have others. But again:
The rotate tool should have been conceived/implemented differently in the first place. The tool as it stands can do 4 things: 1. Rotate Left 2. Rotate Right 3. Rotate 180 degrees... i.e. upside-down 4. Mirror Great. that's all we need. However, there is no preview button as there is in bulk keywording, etc. So choosing an action, such as #1 Rotate Left, means you must choose it & then go back to your gallery. If you have other images needing action #2 Rotate Right, too bad... no preview. You must go back in later. You don't know for certain how long to wait before doing so. If you have no experience, you just do what seems obvious & go right back in. But this is guesswork. And really, it's just a waste of time for anyone. If the tool is going to have bulk capability like this, it should be a one-step tool. The tool's implementers seem to have assumed that a person would only have need of one of the above 4 actions for each particular gallery. Highly unfortunate, because that is clearly not the case.
Sean and I are running tests, one of which we'll have to wait until tomorrow to see the results of. And then we'll probably have to run more tests.
One thing I want to ask you Anna Lisa--what's the computer, operating system, internet connection type (wired/wireless/cable/dsl), and browser you're using? These all may be playing a part.
Sean and I are running tests, one of which we'll have to wait until tomorrow to see the results of. And then we'll probably have to run more tests.
One thing I want to ask you Anna Lisa--what's the computer, operating system, internet connection type (wired/wireless/cable/dsl), and browser you're using? These all may be playing a part.
I have a Dell Dimension C521 PC, Vista, FIOS, and almost always use FF. But I had the same things happen when I was traveling & doing rotations on strange computers too. I haven't seen any difference when I've been on other machines.
Please read my other response first. This response is to address what the main problem is with this rotate tool's implementation, and how I hope it will be changed someday. (because it would solve a lot of the guesswork and save everyone tons of time in making their galleries public). I said this a long, long time ago. So have others. But again:
The rotate tool should have been conceived/implemented differently in the first place. The tool as it stands can do 4 things: 1. Rotate Left 2. Rotate Right 3. Rotate 180 degrees... i.e. upside-down 4. Mirror Great. that's all we need. However, there is no preview button as there is in bulk keywording, etc. So choosing an action, such as #1 Rotate Left, means you must choose it & then go back to your gallery. If you have other images needing action #2 Rotate Right, too bad... no preview. You must go back in later. You don't know for certain how long to wait before doing so. If you have no experience, you just do what seems obvious & go right back in. But this is guesswork. And really, it's just a waste of time for anyone. If the tool is going to have bulk capability like this, it should be a one-step tool. The tool's implementers seem to have assumed that a person would only have need of one of the above 4 actions for each particular gallery. Highly unfortunate, because that is clearly not the case.
Hi Anna Lisa - I reached out to you and Samir via email some time ago - I've begun working through this with Samir, but I have not heard back from you yet -
Did you receive my message?
Perhaps we can speak on this tomorrow - if you did not get my email, shoot me one at help@smugmug.com and put Att: Sean in the subject line - Include a phone number and a block of time you'll be available for me to ring you tomorrow -
Hi Anna Lisa - I reached out to you and Samir via email some time ago - I've begun working through this with Samir, but I have not heard back from you yet -
Did you receive my message?
Perhaps we can speak on this tomorrow - if you did not get my email, shoot me one at help@smugmug.com and put Att: Sean in the subject line - Include a phone number and a block of time you'll be available for me to ring you tomorrow -
Standing by -
Sean
Yes, I got it. Just couldn't do much w/ it today. As I said, I have no detail to offer because it was awhile ago that I last uploaded large batches from the cameras that most need bulk rotations. Tomorrow there won't be much I can do either-- working away from home. I just don't have lots of time to put into troubleshooting right now. I would be most happy if someone could just give an upper limit on time-frame as far as how long to wait before going back to the rotation tool after doing a left rotation. (Reason for going back in would be to tell the system to rotate some others that need rotating right). Couldn't someone just say what is a safe amount of time to wait? This would help all of us, not just me!
Couldn't someone just say what is a safe amount of time to wait? This would help all of us, not just me!
From what I can tell from our testing so far, if it's going to work, it works fairly quickly depending on what else the servers have going on. My opinion, and in no way do I have any data to substantiate my opinion, is if you've waited an hour, it's safe to try again. But there's nothing to say what a second rotation on these will do. I guess we'll be testing that tomorrow.
From what I can tell from our testing so far, if it's going to work, it works fairly quickly depending on what else the servers have going on. My opinion, and in no way do I have any data to substantiate my opinion, is if you've waited an hour, it's safe to try again. But there's nothing to say what a second rotation on these will do. I guess we'll be testing that tomorrow.
Any more info? There's no response to the two long long explanations I posted here. Oh well. I learned a detail related to something you'd mentioned before, and I also see now that rotating a photo that's turned the wrong way could be a different animal than rotating a photo you simply want rotated by choice.
I still have not been doing large uploads, so I have nothing major to offer. But yesterday or maybe Thurs., I rotated a photo that looked better to me the other way (landscape rather than portrait orientation). Not long after, it appeared in my gallery "correctly" rotated... i.e. landscape, the way I'd told it to go. Awhile after that, I tried to crop the thumbnail for it. Nope, it did not like that. I got the "Ooooops, this photo is being processed..." note. I did other stuff & came back in an hour or so. Got the same message. Then some time after that, I came back and saw that the photo had reverted back to its original, portrait orientation! As you once noted, they do not always seem to like it when you have tried to do use some other tool too soon after rotation-- such as keywords, cropping thumbs, etc. It's like they get confused. It seems odd to me though that this should happen even after "rotate" appears to be finished working; i.e. the photo is orientation you told it to be. If it looks finished, other tools shouldn't be affecting it.
And that's the kind of thing I want everyone to know rather than a couple of us getting the skinny on it personally. People should be given at least some clue (within the tool) how long to wait after rotating, especially if it's not necessarily finished working even if it appears so. I almost always arrange photos first, then rotate, then add captions & keywords. But now I think I should be doing rotate last so that other tools don't disrupt the rotation process, since clearly some of them do.
People should be given at least some clue (within the tool) how long to wait after rotating, especially if it's not necessarily finished working even if it appears so.
We are getting nearly no complaints on the rotate tool - I do want to help you and Samir though, and that's why I asked Sean to reach out to you.
I also have bottled up all this info and feedback in this thread, and have had conversations with Samir (via Sean) and John Friend (via email). And I've passed all this info to my Product Manager and sorcerers.
I'm not sure. I've worked 34hrs since Friday on a fraction of sleep, so I'm just now jumping back into things. But this problem is now second to this fire that may have come up: http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=182833cry
Having been a squeeky wheel lately I should pipe up when something's good. I rotated some photos the other day and it worked flawlessly. Blazing fast too.
Having been a squeeky wheel lately I should pipe up when something's good. I rotated some photos the other day and it worked flawlessly. Blazing fast too.
Malte
Good to hear. I'm going to be working on over a thousand images in the next 24hrs, so hopefully I'll have the same experience.
I've been so busy I haven't been able to post this:
"I've been able to reproduce the issue on my site, failed rotations and 'over' rotations - and I've passed this on to the engineers - they will be looking into it"
Looks like Sean has run into the same thing we have. Yay!
The first step to solving a problem is knowing the problem. Now it's a matter of tracing down what inevitably will be an intermittent bug. And from my own experience, this takes time. :cry Hopefully they'll catch it soon.
I've been so busy I haven't been able to post this:
"I've been able to reproduce the issue on my site, failed rotations and 'over' rotations - and I've passed this on to the engineers - they will be looking into it"
Looks like Sean has run into the same thing we have. Yay!
The first step to solving a problem is knowing the problem. Now it's a matter of tracing down what inevitably will be an intermittent bug. And from my own experience, this takes time. :cry Hopefully they'll catch it soon.
Now there's a shocker. Yeah, it happened to me some more, & I knew something was going on. Just was too worn out trying to go into the details & getting the "well, we haven't been getting other complaints so it must be you doing something wrong" thing. Figured I'd just wait & see what you were finding. I was making a video 2 days ago, and found an over-rotated one in a gallery that I'd last worked on a LONG time ago. And I knew that every photo in the gallery was definitely in the correct orientation when I left it. I'd looked at the entire gallery several times in large view.
I think Smug needs to understand that it can be awhile until multiple complaints start happening when there's an issue & not make the assumption up-front that we don't know how to use a tool correctly. I know it took me at least 6 months or more to even venture to DGrin after joining Smug. And I rarely checked w/ the Help desk. If I had problems, I just did it again until it eventually worked, or waited it out rather than speaking up about them. And I guarantee you that's what 90% of people are going to do. Huge website owners don't realize what a wall exists between users and the site-behind-the-scenes. It's no one's fault; it's just the way this online beast is. As a web user, you run into problems constantly, with stuff not working correctly. And you know it could be you. So what percentage of the time that you actually have problems, do you go up the line and complain about them?? Yeah... for most people.... not much. Here, I've learned to speak up only because I've seen how much it can help other people and speed up resolution. On a site like Facebook, forget it. I've been there, done that. It's completely and utterly useless. Here, at least something usually, eventually, happens.
I was making a video 2 days ago, and found an over-rotated one in a gallery that I'd last worked on a LONG time ago. And I knew that every photo in the gallery was definitely in the correct orientation when I left it. I'd looked at the entire gallery several times in large view.
I've run across this situation as well, even recently in one gallery where everything reverted to the original upload state--hide marks gone, images back in their original orientation. I spent hours going through all my other galleries looking for the hide marks removed, and luckily found nothing. I guess this one was a fluke, but I couldn't get a real explanation as to what might have happened, and if it could happen again. It makes me really weary about building a 100% solid business on a 99% solid foundation. 1% becomes a real issue when volume increases.
If I had problems, I just did it again until it eventually worked, or waited it out rather than speaking up about them. And I guarantee you that's what 90% of people are going to do. Huge website owners don't realize what a wall exists between users and the site-behind-the-scenes. It's no one's fault; it's just the way this online beast is. As a web user, you run into problems constantly, with stuff not working correctly. And you know it could be you. So what percentage of the time that you actually have problems, do you go up the line and complain about them?? Yeah... for most people.... not much.
And you know, I do the exact same thing. I have to run into an issue 5 times or more before I even say anything about it. And for me to be upset, it has to be much more than that. Most people just turn to another solution at this point and go on with their day, but I'm stubborn.
I run a web site that serves 10,000 people a month, and I rarely hear anything until I meet my visitors face-to-face. Then I hear about the issues. I've actually put my phone number on the web site to encourage people to call, but even then it's still a very small percentage that do. And because of this, I take every call about an issue VERY seriously as it represents a much larger group of people than just that one person. That person just took the time to speak up. Usually, people just don't return to the site--and that's bad for business--any business.
You're absolutely right about the wall between the customer and the business in the web-business world. Traditional brick and mortar business had immediate feedback like a person face-to-face or a phone call. And these communication mediums are much, much more effective than email or forums. But web businesses don't fit into the traditional business category with their revenue, overhead, and even human resources structures, so having a phone line or call center can become a really big expense. But the drawback is losing touch with the customer, losing brand loyalty, and having to make up for lost customers with new ones. I think SM has done a very good job with trying to keep in touch with its users without resorting to phone support (on a large part because of Andy's constant diligence--kudos for all your efforts Andy!), but on the pro level, it does sometimes leave you wanting more--especially when there's fires. Then an email, forum post, or support hero isn't fast enough, and can't do what a conversation on the phone can do.
I've run across this situation as well, even recently in one gallery where everything reverted to the original upload state--hide marks gone, images back in their original orientation. I spent hours going through all my other galleries looking for the hide marks removed, and luckily found nothing. I guess this one was a fluke, but I couldn't get a real explanation as to what might have happened, and if it could happen again. It makes me really weary about building a 100% solid business on a 99% solid foundation. 1% becomes a real issue when volume increases.
I answered you for sure - we didn't do anything to your galleries, Samir. Thanks.
I answered you for sure - we didn't do anything to your galleries, Samir. Thanks.
Oh, I didn't say that you didn't answer. Just that there wasn't much explanation for what happened.
The review process that I put a gallery through before it's published is rigorous and multi-step, checking each little thing like image rotation, hidden images, and gallery settings multiple times. In the odd case, one thing may slip through, but not multiple things like in this case. I'll admit I'm human and make mistakes, but I'm certain I didn't goof up this bad. This was a very important gallery that got a lot of attention when it was first published. And it became the foundation for a working relationship with a local car dealership. These pressures alone would have made me triple-check that it was perfect before publishing it.
Hi Samir, I can't explain what happened - I wish I could - all I know is that we did not change your gallery or photos. Thanks.
I know nothing was intentionally changed, and I know you've given me the best answer you can--I don't doubt that.
But not knowing what happened or how to prevent it in the future leaves me uneasy. I don't mind running into problems, that's normal. I just like to solve problems permanently so I don't have to deal with them again. I have a solution that I could code up that would automatically delete hidden images in a gallery, but that solution has its drawbacks.
Hi Samir, I can't explain what happened - I wish I could - all I know is that we did not change your gallery or photos. Thanks.
I just feel like this is the kind of response that is rather frustrating and, well, smug (with a lower-case "s"!) to people. When you say "we" didn't change your gallery or photos... ok, no one who has a problem like photos inexplicably over-rotating is coming here to blame a person for doing something wrong. We come here explaining the problem and figuring that something internal, probably something that's currently buggy or not working correctly on all systems, is simply happening on its own. And we're also coming here saying "I know I used the rotation tool correctly, because it's very simple to use... and I know I had these 3 photos rotated correctly, but then they all went a step too far." It's not a blame-thing, and shouldn't elicit a seemingly reflexive defense from Smug.
So when you tell people that "we" (i.e. SmugMug) did not change it, or "no one else is having this problem", or "we always do the right thing"-- well, what your customers are hearing is, "Oh, so you think it's just me, and I don't know how to use the tool correctly... or, "Oh so you think I didn't check my gallery before going public"... or, "Oh, so you can't imagine the possibility there's a bug." I'm sorry, but this is just not a good situation for either you or your customers to be in. We end up then with everyone on the defensive and upset and feeling they're banging heads against a wall. Instead, assume that a great percentage of the time when stuff doesn't go right for people, you never hear about it. (because I personally know that's true) Instead, maybe look at the people who report issues as people who do know when something isn't working right... look at them as potential helpers who want the same exact thing Smug (and you) want... for things to work well!!
We don't let Smug know about issues because we just want to be the thorns in the side of a great site. We let Smug know because we believe that eventually someone will get to the bottom of the issue, and we don't want other people running into the same issues. I can be heard weekly extolling the huge virtues of this site to friends, because I know there's nothing else out there like this. I LOVE it when it's all working... as everyone does. But I start to feel very disturbed the more I'm hearing answers like we heard in this thread. A problem was replicated... finally. Now what we should be hearing is "Thanks for noticing that something needed attention. Thanks for taking your time to explain it and monitor it." not something that sounds like "Smug can't have been doing anything wrong. There are never bugs, and no one else is having trouble.... i.e. it must be your imagination."
I've taken the time to say all this not because I need to hear another defense or apologies. I just would really love to see communication get better around here. It's already a cut above the rest, or at least I once thought it was, but there are times like lately this when problems are laid out that a much different communication scenario should be happening.... it would save so much time!! We wasted so much valuable time here with the back & forth of "It's not me". "Well, it's not me." "Well, no one else has problems" (even though there's a whole thread already). And a bunch of dead-end stuff. Someone representing Smug could have decided 3 weeks ago that this merited an engineer actually bugging it. We could have avoided the time, the crap, the bad feelings. A fix might have even happened by last week. At the very very least, the rest of us who have had these issues could have gotten some very basic answers to our most basic questions, which we still haven't gotten. I will put those questions in another post, because I, for one, need to know.
Comments
Sean
SmugMug Pro Concierge
If you're saying this absolutely shouldn't be done (using 2 windows), then tell people that & say why. It should not be a problem in theory, because you're only choosing certain files for the rotation. If the Smug rotation system doesn't adhere to rotating only files that are chosen for each rotation, then we have a problem. And when I said random, I did not mean infrequent or un-replicable.
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Anna Lisa: The rotation is lossless (or not, depending on the dimensions of your jpg file) or lossy, whether you rotate on your computer or SmugMug.
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OOK So I'm confused as to what you are mentioning two posts above - let's do this please, so avoid any further confusion - let Sean help you, personally ok? We really do want to make you and the rotate tool happy together!
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Now that I've been here a long time, I do know one thing: you cannot count on being able to go right back into that same gallery and correctly rotate to the right if you've just done the left ones. It almost certainly messes up if you do that. Smug could certainly benefit from putting a warning about that on the Rotate page, but it seems Smug is much happier making people run to forums or doing trial & error for ages before they will put a helpful note on the tool page. Sooo..... knowing this, I wait. I leave the gallery and don't come back until half a day later at least, if I need some rotated the other direction. (Most of the time, I only need left rotation anyway... fortunately!!) I also know that you must wait in general. You don't go back in 10 min., see that the pics haven't rotated yet, and re-do it. (learned the hard way on that as well.... a "safe-wait" timeframe should also be included on the rotate page, so others can avoid this guesswork).
So-- I hope you see what I mean... that I just don't see a possibility for doing something "incorrectly" as you've been stating. It pains me that you think people need personal help with something this simple. And if there is this possibility (of goofing so badly), then every person reading this needs the same instruction. As I tried to state in Post #63-- there is one other "method" (although one would still, obviously, be using the actual tool the same exact way because there's no other way to use it!!). That method is what Samir does -- instead of going back into the gallery a day later to do the second round of rotations (photos needing to go the other direction), he simply has two windows open, a seemingly simple, smart concept that should be very easy to understand. He selects photos that need to rotate 90 degrees left, in his left window. Hits rotate. Selects photos that need to rotate right in his right window. Hits rotate. Perfect. Done. Now he can walk away & everything should be correctly rotated in a few hours.
That's it. Now if that last method is problematic for some reason, just tell everyone, because everyone should know. A private call about it isn't going to help the rest of us. As I said, I'd never thought of doing it that way, but it sure makes sense. Anyone reading this who has wanted to speed up the rotate process will want to try it, as I do.
So there's only one problem, and it's not with how I'm incorrectly using a tool that really can only be used one way anyway (I'm talking in terms of nuts & bolts here, not timeframes & separate windows... I'm saying you select photos, & hit two buttons... there's no other way to do "rotate"). The problem is that sometimes the photos we've chosen to rotate will rotate farther than they were supposed to and end up upside-down instead of in the correct position. Or, they never rotate at all. Someone just needs to accept that this happens and find out why internally rather than telling people they're hitting the two buttons wrong. And that is what's maddening.
DayBreak, my Folk Music Group (some free mp3s!) http://daybreakfolk.com
Please read my other response first. This response is to address what the main problem is with this rotate tool's implementation, and how I hope it will be changed someday. (because it would solve a lot of the guesswork and save everyone tons of time in making their galleries public). I said this a long, long time ago. So have others. But again:
The rotate tool should have been conceived/implemented differently in the first place. The tool as it stands can do 4 things: 1. Rotate Left 2. Rotate Right 3. Rotate 180 degrees... i.e. upside-down 4. Mirror Great. that's all we need. However, there is no preview button as there is in bulk keywording, etc. So choosing an action, such as #1 Rotate Left, means you must choose it & then go back to your gallery. If you have other images needing action #2 Rotate Right, too bad... no preview. You must go back in later. You don't know for certain how long to wait before doing so. If you have no experience, you just do what seems obvious & go right back in. But this is guesswork. And really, it's just a waste of time for anyone. If the tool is going to have bulk capability like this, it should be a one-step tool. The tool's implementers seem to have assumed that a person would only have need of one of the above 4 actions for each particular gallery. Highly unfortunate, because that is clearly not the case.
DayBreak, my Folk Music Group (some free mp3s!) http://daybreakfolk.com
One thing I want to ask you Anna Lisa--what's the computer, operating system, internet connection type (wired/wireless/cable/dsl), and browser you're using? These all may be playing a part.
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Hi Anna Lisa - I reached out to you and Samir via email some time ago - I've begun working through this with Samir, but I have not heard back from you yet -
Did you receive my message?
Perhaps we can speak on this tomorrow - if you did not get my email, shoot me one at help@smugmug.com and put Att: Sean in the subject line - Include a phone number and a block of time you'll be available for me to ring you tomorrow -
Standing by -
Sean
DayBreak, my Folk Music Group (some free mp3s!) http://daybreakfolk.com
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I still have not been doing large uploads, so I have nothing major to offer. But yesterday or maybe Thurs., I rotated a photo that looked better to me the other way (landscape rather than portrait orientation). Not long after, it appeared in my gallery "correctly" rotated... i.e. landscape, the way I'd told it to go. Awhile after that, I tried to crop the thumbnail for it. Nope, it did not like that. I got the "Ooooops, this photo is being processed..." note. I did other stuff & came back in an hour or so. Got the same message. Then some time after that, I came back and saw that the photo had reverted back to its original, portrait orientation! As you once noted, they do not always seem to like it when you have tried to do use some other tool too soon after rotation-- such as keywords, cropping thumbs, etc. It's like they get confused. It seems odd to me though that this should happen even after "rotate" appears to be finished working; i.e. the photo is orientation you told it to be. If it looks finished, other tools shouldn't be affecting it.
And that's the kind of thing I want everyone to know rather than a couple of us getting the skinny on it personally. People should be given at least some clue (within the tool) how long to wait after rotating, especially if it's not necessarily finished working even if it appears so. I almost always arrange photos first, then rotate, then add captions & keywords. But now I think I should be doing rotate last so that other tools don't disrupt the rotation process, since clearly some of them do.
DayBreak, my Folk Music Group (some free mp3s!) http://daybreakfolk.com
We are getting nearly no complaints on the rotate tool - I do want to help you and Samir though, and that's why I asked Sean to reach out to you.
I also have bottled up all this info and feedback in this thread, and have had conversations with Samir (via Sean) and John Friend (via email). And I've passed all this info to my Product Manager and sorcerers.
Thanks Anna Lisa!
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http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=182833
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Malte
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"I've been able to reproduce the issue on my site, failed rotations and 'over' rotations - and I've passed this on to the engineers - they will be looking into it"
Looks like Sean has run into the same thing we have. Yay!
The first step to solving a problem is knowing the problem. Now it's a matter of tracing down what inevitably will be an intermittent bug. And from my own experience, this takes time. :cry Hopefully they'll catch it soon.
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I think Smug needs to understand that it can be awhile until multiple complaints start happening when there's an issue & not make the assumption up-front that we don't know how to use a tool correctly. I know it took me at least 6 months or more to even venture to DGrin after joining Smug. And I rarely checked w/ the Help desk. If I had problems, I just did it again until it eventually worked, or waited it out rather than speaking up about them. And I guarantee you that's what 90% of people are going to do. Huge website owners don't realize what a wall exists between users and the site-behind-the-scenes. It's no one's fault; it's just the way this online beast is. As a web user, you run into problems constantly, with stuff not working correctly. And you know it could be you. So what percentage of the time that you actually have problems, do you go up the line and complain about them?? Yeah... for most people.... not much. Here, I've learned to speak up only because I've seen how much it can help other people and speed up resolution. On a site like Facebook, forget it. I've been there, done that. It's completely and utterly useless. Here, at least something usually, eventually, happens.
DayBreak, my Folk Music Group (some free mp3s!) http://daybreakfolk.com
And you know, I do the exact same thing. I have to run into an issue 5 times or more before I even say anything about it. And for me to be upset, it has to be much more than that. Most people just turn to another solution at this point and go on with their day, but I'm stubborn.
I run a web site that serves 10,000 people a month, and I rarely hear anything until I meet my visitors face-to-face. Then I hear about the issues. I've actually put my phone number on the web site to encourage people to call, but even then it's still a very small percentage that do. And because of this, I take every call about an issue VERY seriously as it represents a much larger group of people than just that one person. That person just took the time to speak up. Usually, people just don't return to the site--and that's bad for business--any business.
You're absolutely right about the wall between the customer and the business in the web-business world. Traditional brick and mortar business had immediate feedback like a person face-to-face or a phone call. And these communication mediums are much, much more effective than email or forums. But web businesses don't fit into the traditional business category with their revenue, overhead, and even human resources structures, so having a phone line or call center can become a really big expense. But the drawback is losing touch with the customer, losing brand loyalty, and having to make up for lost customers with new ones. I think SM has done a very good job with trying to keep in touch with its users without resorting to phone support (on a large part because of Andy's constant diligence--kudos for all your efforts Andy!), but on the pro level, it does sometimes leave you wanting more--especially when there's fires. Then an email, forum post, or support hero isn't fast enough, and can't do what a conversation on the phone can do.
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I answered you for sure - we didn't do anything to your galleries, Samir. Thanks.
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The review process that I put a gallery through before it's published is rigorous and multi-step, checking each little thing like image rotation, hidden images, and gallery settings multiple times. In the odd case, one thing may slip through, but not multiple things like in this case. I'll admit I'm human and make mistakes, but I'm certain I didn't goof up this bad. This was a very important gallery that got a lot of attention when it was first published. And it became the foundation for a working relationship with a local car dealership. These pressures alone would have made me triple-check that it was perfect before publishing it.
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Hi Samir, I can't explain what happened - I wish I could - all I know is that we did not change your gallery or photos. Thanks.
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But not knowing what happened or how to prevent it in the future leaves me uneasy. I don't mind running into problems, that's normal. I just like to solve problems permanently so I don't have to deal with them again. I have a solution that I could code up that would automatically delete hidden images in a gallery, but that solution has its drawbacks.
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So when you tell people that "we" (i.e. SmugMug) did not change it, or "no one else is having this problem", or "we always do the right thing"-- well, what your customers are hearing is, "Oh, so you think it's just me, and I don't know how to use the tool correctly... or, "Oh so you think I didn't check my gallery before going public"... or, "Oh, so you can't imagine the possibility there's a bug." I'm sorry, but this is just not a good situation for either you or your customers to be in. We end up then with everyone on the defensive and upset and feeling they're banging heads against a wall. Instead, assume that a great percentage of the time when stuff doesn't go right for people, you never hear about it. (because I personally know that's true) Instead, maybe look at the people who report issues as people who do know when something isn't working right... look at them as potential helpers who want the same exact thing Smug (and you) want... for things to work well!!
We don't let Smug know about issues because we just want to be the thorns in the side of a great site. We let Smug know because we believe that eventually someone will get to the bottom of the issue, and we don't want other people running into the same issues. I can be heard weekly extolling the huge virtues of this site to friends, because I know there's nothing else out there like this. I LOVE it when it's all working... as everyone does. But I start to feel very disturbed the more I'm hearing answers like we heard in this thread. A problem was replicated... finally. Now what we should be hearing is "Thanks for noticing that something needed attention. Thanks for taking your time to explain it and monitor it." not something that sounds like "Smug can't have been doing anything wrong. There are never bugs, and no one else is having trouble.... i.e. it must be your imagination."
I've taken the time to say all this not because I need to hear another defense or apologies. I just would really love to see communication get better around here. It's already a cut above the rest, or at least I once thought it was, but there are times like lately this when problems are laid out that a much different communication scenario should be happening.... it would save so much time!! We wasted so much valuable time here with the back & forth of "It's not me". "Well, it's not me." "Well, no one else has problems" (even though there's a whole thread already). And a bunch of dead-end stuff. Someone representing Smug could have decided 3 weeks ago that this merited an engineer actually bugging it. We could have avoided the time, the crap, the bad feelings. A fix might have even happened by last week. At the very very least, the rest of us who have had these issues could have gotten some very basic answers to our most basic questions, which we still haven't gotten. I will put those questions in another post, because I, for one, need to know.
DayBreak, my Folk Music Group (some free mp3s!) http://daybreakfolk.com