I apologize for the statement that you "don't have to claim the donation". I was mis informed. I agree, only tax professionals should give advice such as that.
On the other hand, at least someone responded to a post that I made. Most of the time I'm just ignored.
If you didn't place value on your pictures, you should have contributed to the pot luck.
Even in this there is money value. Your time to cook or get the meal from the store, and the amount of work it took to afford to get the food to begin with.
You can deny all you want, but there is a monetary cost and value to everyday living. How we spend our time and money shows what we value.
Oh please ... the second to last line is pure BS ... the subject matter is far too complex to be trivialized by such a simple and fallacious statement. If one is so small that they cannot see beyond their wallet ... then yeah, everything they do and touch can be measured by coin ... but only by themselves or another of similar sight. Just because one allows money to be the most important element in their daily life does not mean that this concept is true for others nor does it make it right.
Not placing a value on a picture in no way makes it valueless. In fact the most valued objects in the world are considered "priceless".
As stated earlier, I donate my time pro bono to local high school. For Christmas the drama teacher gave me $100 gift card thanking me for shooting her plays. I returned the card with a nice thank you but it wasn't necessary note. There are high roads and a low roads in life. I prefer the high road even if it does cost me a few nickels and dimes. Meeting people halfway or more than halfway, being fair and honorable with people has paid off in the long run professionally and personally. I've never felt compelled to ask strangers how they felt about me giving my works away freely. I knew for me, it was the right thing to do ... and I always took something to the pot luck.
Once again, this is a simple choice of GIVING to the team and people you've just spent an entire season or TAKING a few dollars from your child's teammates.
A very smart business associate told me of the LA Times test (I live in Southern California). If you're struggling with an action or decision ... makes that action/decision into a headline ... then choose the headline you would rather have everybody read. Which headline would your prefer ... "Mark Gives Photographs to Team" ... or "Mark Takes Teammates' Money for Pictures."
Again, value is determine not by what is paid but by what a person is WILLING to pay in terms of goods/services/monies. It's quite possible no one is willing to give the CPA in question anything in terms of goods/services/monies (or future goods/services/monies) in which case your assessment the 'customer' didn't value the product/service would be correct. But the fact he didn't charge isn't what strips the value.
You're confusing two distinct arguments being made by people:
1) quality photography has value and thus should not be given away for free.
2) sports photography has much diminished value to the majority of potential customers. The sub-argument here by some posters is the value has gone down because so many people give the product away for free.
People trying to make money are arguing point 1 in the hopes they can stop the tide of eroding value in the product/service they're trying to sell.
People arguing point 2 are basically saying - if you're planning on charging money based solely on the feedback from people patting you on the back - be prepared. Those same people don't value the product enough to pay money for something they gladly took for free.
I am not arguing any of those points.
For "1)"
As a former news photog I know the value of photography as it was my profession and livelihood. A quality photograph has merit. A quality photograph potentially can be sold. That does not mean it has to be sold or should be sold.
Mark is not dealing with strangers. He is dealing with the team, people he sees every week. I am so perplexed by greed that one would want to stick it to the team. I honestly cannot understand that way of thinking. I know it happens everyday ... I would not be surprised it it happened to one of my children's teams ... but I still cannot understand the greed.
For "2)"
I would say that the value of photography has gone down in all sectors, not only sports photography. Two basic reasons, dSLR are now fairly cheap and everybody has a computer (in the past darkrooms were rare and separated the men from the boys), and most people haven't any concept or skills to determine the quality of a photo (and if it's of their own child ... et cetera).
I do not know enough of how "Sports Photography" works to argue any point. I only give away images to people I know, the team families. I strongly believe in helping out on and off the field. With the exception of tournaments, I am the only "real" photog around. At tourney's the parents buy photos of their kids even though they'll get mine for free.
Markets are forever changing. The internet is wiping out newspapers ... electronic sensors has practically wiped out film ... in order to stay viable, stay alive ... one has to be flexible, change and adapt with the times and technology. Dinosaurs didn't believe in meteors.
Mark is not dealing with strangers. He is dealing with the team, people he sees every week. I am so perplexed by greed that one would want to stick it to the team. I honestly cannot understand that way of thinking. I know it happens everyday ... I would not be surprised it it happened to one of my children's teams ... but I still cannot understand the greed.
Gary
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p> I am not sure if I should take offense?
<o:p></o:p> Would it make a difference if I also managed three teams, scheduled all the local games and practices, coordinated all the tournaments, made hotels arrangements, find teams and setup away games, manage the teams' bank accounts and finances, registered the team rosters, order all team supplies, picked out and purchased the uniforms, made the logo for the jerseys, send out all newsletters and communications, maintain our portion of the website (three teams = three login areas), carry the water bottles to the benches, work the time clock when needed, man the penalty box door, carry tissues for players' runny noses and the parents' occasional watery eyes. And, I take photos and edit the images...<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> I do all that and still pay an equal share for my son to play.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> You now have additional background for more context in regard to my original question. The word “greed” has a strong negative connotation. Still, I respect your right to an opinion on an open forum. Perhaps you’ll now reconsider your position or choice of words? It was never my intent to “stick it to the team”.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Best regards,<o:p></o:p> -Mark<o:p></o:p>
I apologize for the statement that you "don't have to claim the donation". I was mis informed. I agree, only tax professionals should give advice such as that.
On the other hand, at least someone responded to a post that I made. Most of the time I'm just ignored.
Well, you made an excellent suggestion. Even though the tax rules don't work the way we could wish, I think your idea of giving the photos away and asking for a donation for the team is a great way to offset team costs.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p> I am not sure if I should take offense?
<o:p></o:p> Would it make a difference if I also managed three teams, scheduled all the local games and practices, coordinated all the tournaments, made hotels arrangements, find teams and setup away games, manage the teams' bank accounts and finances, registered the team rosters, order all team supplies, picked out and purchased the uniforms, made the logo for the jerseys, send out all newsletters and communications, maintain our portion of the website (three teams = three login areas), carry the water bottles to the benches, work the time clock when needed, man the penalty box door, carry tissues for players' runny noses and the parents' occasional watery eyes. And, I take photos and edit the images...<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> I do all that and still pay an equal share for my son to play.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> You now have additional background for more context in regard to my original question. The word “greed” has a strong negative connotation. Still, I respect your right to an opinion on an open forum. Perhaps you’ll now reconsider your position or choice of words? It was never my intent to “stick it to the team”.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Best regards,<o:p></o:p> -Mark<o:p></o:p>
I apologize for the choice of words ... but things quickly seemed to have heated up ... I place a high value on human characteristics friendship and helping, contributing to others and the community ... and far less value on materialistic goods and money.
Until I get dictatorial powers ... this is a free country do as you may. All those other things are great that you contribute to the team ... they truly are ... but if you didn't step-up ... someone else would ... I doubt the team would spend any money to pay someone for all the coordination. Anyway ... you write your hometown newspaper banner headline the way you choose and I'll write mine.
Don't let anyone get you down. If a team mom wants to offer her services as Pampered Chef coordinator - she isn't going to give the product away for free. You pay a lot of money for gear and your experience as a photographer has value. So the notion that you are somehow a bad person for not wanting to donate products/services is silly. No one would even consider questioning that person selling Pampered Chef or Upercase Living to other team parents. The idea of offering photography products/services at a fair price is not greedy - any more than any other person with a side business is greedy. If they don't value your product/service they will choose not to buy.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p> ... I had a conversation this past weekend with some parents about my images. They indicated that there are other parents they know -past and present - that do charge a nominal cost for images from their kid's sporting events. They also indicated that they were as good if not better than stuff they had purchased. (I asked for links so I could compare first hand.) I know that anything is only worth as much as what others are willing to pay. I also know that my personal enjoyment is different - both in personal preference and value. In other words, I could think something is a great shot and others may not; or, I could think something is not worth anything that someone else would gladly spend money to own.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> How does one know if they should charge for the service or images? <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> ...
-Mark
The funny thing is that it was the parents that brought this matter to my attention in the first place. (See the original post) I then brought it here for discussion because I figured that I couldn't be the first person in this situtaion. There are other parents with websites and charging... For the record, I haven't taken a single cent for any images, and, there are over 1000 edited full size jpegs (and counting) free to download. As indicated a few threads ago, I may make a consolidated and indexed disk (for convenience) and charge a small fee to cover my costs of the disks.
I appreciate the open dialogue and no offense has been taken.
What exactly constitutes as a "fair" price though?
There is a cost of doing business coupled with a desired profit margin. Then there is the price that customer is willing to pay, no matter what the costs of doing business happen to be. If a business is lucky their costs are below what the customer is willing to pay.
Too many photographers seem to think that pricing is simply one-sided debate.
Due to a medical condition that became far more involved than I could have ever dreamed I've been unable to capture any of my usual track photographs since early November. Long story short I went in for spinal surgery in late January. I'm doing very well but still under activity restrictions and still have noticeable lack of neck movement. It will be July or so before I'm fully recovered. Its unsure yet if I'll be going back to photographing race cars on a frequent basis.
When I told the track owner that I needed to take a haitus due to spinal surgery he got me in touch with a track member who happens to be in the medical supply field and knows all the surgeons and has a solid grasp of the procedures. I never met this guy, even yet, but that did not stop him from answering any and every question and concern that Amy and I had over the surgeon scheduled to do the procedure, what this procedure was, what I could expect, etc. He was huge help. He didn't know me, we haven't met. But just because Eric asked him to help me out he did.
No dime changed hands for his advice and expertise, gained over his career and hard work.
Once I feel able to I'm going to be photographing one or two of his (very nice) track cars with a private session at the track. I'll be giving him a CD. Free of charge.
The track is gong to let us have time, alone, on the track to ourselves to do this session. Free of charge.
I challenge anyone who thinks that value is only measure in coin to seriously reconsider things.
Bill - a "fair price" is whatever the market will bear - assuming a free market. Things get trickier when you get into situations where parents are not allowed to take their own photos (remember the OPs situation)- but that is very rare.
Your situation illustrates my point: a product/service is valued at whatever a customer would be willing to pay in terms of goods/services/monies. The person at the track valued your services enough to provide a service to you when you need it. In turn, his advice is valuable enough to you that you wish to compensate him for it.
So, for the upteenth time - no a person doesn't have to actually pay for something for that something to have value to them. I merely put forth the notion that if it DOES have value to them they should be willing to give something back in terms of goods/services/monies. It doesn't have to be a 1 for 1 exchange. Let me try to phrase it another way: if Customer A receives a product/service for free and a reporter were interviewing them and asked:
Reporter: do you value that product?
Customer A: Sure
Reporter: if the supplier was charging $5 for that product would you still want it?
Customer: I don't think so
Reporter: I understand you like to bake pies. Have you ever considered baking a pie for the supplier to thank him/her
Customer: no, not really - that takes a couple hours.
This is a scenario where Customer A places no value on the product. They would be willing to do without it if they had to actually DO or PAY anything to get it. I purposely worded the second question that way - such that it wasn't like the supplier was asking for a pie just whether or not the customer felt the product/service was worth the same as their own time/skill.
In the above scenario, if things had gone this way:
Reporter: do you value that product?
Customer A: Sure
Reporter: if the supplier was charging $5 for that product would you still want it?
Customer: I don't think so
Reporter: I understand you like to bake pies. Have you ever considered baking a pie for the supplier to thank him/her
Customer: that's a great idea. I enjoy his product and one of my home made pies is a great way to thank him for his time/efforts.
In that scenario, Customer A does value the product.
My point is: just because a person accepts something for free doesn't mean they value it. You don't know. Again, it isn't about what they have given in the past - it's about what they would be willing to give. By the way - even if they don't value the product it doesn't make them bad people.
Oh please ... the second to last line is pure BS ... the subject matter is far too complex to be trivialized by such a simple and fallacious statement. If one is so small that they cannot see beyond their wallet ... then yeah, everything they do and touch can be measured by coin ... but only by themselves or another of similar sight. Just because one allows money to be the most important element in their daily life does not mean that this concept is true for others nor does it make it right.
Not placing a value on a picture in no way makes it valueless. In fact the most valued objects in the world are considered "priceless".
As stated earlier, I donate my time pro bono to local high school. For Christmas the drama teacher gave me $100 gift card thanking me for shooting her plays. I returned the card with a nice thank you but it wasn't necessary note. There are high roads and a low roads in life. I prefer the high road even if it does cost me a few nickels and dimes. Meeting people halfway or more than halfway, being fair and honorable with people has paid off in the long run professionally and personally. I've never felt compelled to ask strangers how they felt about me giving my works away freely. I knew for me, it was the right thing to do ... and I always took something to the pot luck.
Once again, this is a simple choice of GIVING to the team and people you've just spent an entire season or TAKING a few dollars from your child's teammates.
A very smart business associate told me of the LA Times test (I live in Southern California). If you're struggling with an action or decision ... makes that action/decision into a headline ... then choose the headline you would rather have everybody read. Which headline would your prefer ... "Mark Gives Photographs to Team" ... or "Mark Takes Teammates' Money for Pictures."
Gary
I'm small for seeing costs? Please
You put yourself on a high pedestal for donating time, pictures or whatever you do but there are still costs and value on that. A stay at home mom/dad does thing out of love but their is till a cost involved. When you use the term "donate" that puts value on your actions. Whether you charge or not is up to you
Your headline scenario is ridiculous. Do you donate your time to your employer or those you provide services for or do you invoice? Do the referees donate their time to officiate the games? Do the sponsors of the teams donate jerseys but not put their name on the jerseys? Does the t-shirt company just abosrb the costs of making the jerseys just because it is jr league? Does the electric company donate electricity if the games are at night?
People are making money off these games like the after game celebration at McDonald's. For you to make people who charge photos into bad guys is just plain wrong.
The funny thing is that it was the parents that brought this matter to my attention in the first place. (See the original post) I then brought it here for discussion because I figured that I couldn't be the first person in this situtaion. There are other parents with websites and charging... For the record, I haven't taken a single cent for any images, and, there are over 1000 edited full size jpegs (and counting) free to download. As indicated a few threads ago, I may make a consolidated and indexed disk (for convenience) and charge a small fee to cover my costs of the disks.
I appreciate the open dialogue and no offense has been taken.
-Mark
Hi Mark , I haven't read through the whole thread , I coach and assist coach two teams . I intermittenly carry my camera to games for the purpose of getting shots of all the kids for the parents . I do it cause I love getting decent action shots , Parents really love having the photos and it's a learnng experience for me . I am trying to capture the images for my children to have when they get older to look at (like videoing their birthdays ,christmas etc>) I do the same in the summer for Baseball ! It's about doing for others as much as it is doing for myself ! I enjoy it and wouldn't even consider taking money for this from my teams(I am a hobbiest). If others would like me to come and shoot them ,then it changes .....
I did hockey cards for my teams this year (parents paid for the cost to get them printed) it just adds to the total(team) experience of the game .
Up until now I have had to use my 70-300 is usm or my buddy's 100-400 L
Tonight i am getting my hands on a 70-200 2.8 L for the weekend (3 games) The photos should get even better !!!
With Money comes expectations and Headaches .To me making someone smile is all the compensation i want!
Bill - a "fair price" is whatever the market will bear - assuming a free market. Things get trickier when you get into situations where parents are not allowed to take their own photos (remember the OPs situation)- but that is very rare.
Your situation illustrates my point: a product/service is valued at whatever a customer would be willing to pay in terms of goods/services/monies. The person at the track valued your services enough to provide a service to you when you need it. In turn, his advice is valuable enough to you that you wish to compensate him for it.
So, for the upteenth time - no a person doesn't have to actually pay for something for that something to have value to them. I merely put forth the notion that if it DOES have value to them they should be willing to give something back in terms of goods/services/monies. It doesn't have to be a 1 for 1 exchange. Let me try to phrase it another way: if Customer A receives a product/service for free and a reporter were interviewing them and asked:
Reporter: do you value that product?
Customer A: Sure
Reporter: if the supplier was charging $5 for that product would you still want it?
Customer: I don't think so
Reporter: I understand you like to bake pies. Have you ever considered baking a pie for the supplier to thank him/her
Customer: no, not really - that takes a couple hours.
This is a scenario where Customer A places no value on the product. They would be willing to do without it if they had to actually DO or PAY anything to get it. I purposely worded the second question that way - such that it wasn't like the supplier was asking for a pie just whether or not the customer felt the product/service was worth the same as their own time/skill.
In the above scenario, if things had gone this way:
Reporter: do you value that product?
Customer A: Sure
Reporter: if the supplier was charging $5 for that product would you still want it?
Customer: I don't think so
Reporter: I understand you like to bake pies. Have you ever considered baking a pie for the supplier to thank him/her
Customer: that's a great idea. I enjoy his product and one of my home made pies is a great way to thank him for his time/efforts.
In that scenario, Customer A does value the product.
My point is: just because a person accepts something for free doesn't mean they value it. You don't know. Again, it isn't about what they have given in the past - it's about what they would be willing to give. By the way - even if they don't value the product it doesn't make them bad people.
+1
Actions mean something. A man tells his woman he loves her. Its easy to say. Her car breaks down and calls her man to pick her up. He says he can't because he is watching the game. He values the game over her.
A photographer can be told how much their pictures are appreciated and thought of. People tell them they should charge because they are that good. The photog starts charging and people don't buy because another parent is giving away pictures. Did the parents value the pictures or valued them because they were free?
Your situation illustrates my point: a product/service is valued at whatever a customer would be willing to pay in terms of goods/services/monies. The person at the track valued your services enough to provide a service to you when you need it. In turn, his advice is valuable enough to you that you wish to compensate him for it.
You really think the track owner, Eric, had their track member, Mark, whom I've never met, talk to me about my questions and worries because they valued my photography? Or that Mark valued the track enough to do a favor for Eric, who valued my photography enough.... You're drawing quite a web here.
Its about friendships and relationships and doing nice things for people.
Bill - that's fine. They valued your friendship then. The point is they did something because they valued something. I guess I'm a bit confused as to how this relates to either:
1) do people value photography?
2) should someone charge for photography?
I'm certainly not debating the merits of friendships and doing things for friends. I would certainly not suggest that people should not help out friends/family/those less fortunate. I'm trying to stick to the topic - which, as I understand it has followed the above two paths.
Again, regardless of what it is each person "values" in you your situation we see everybody giving something so clearly all 3 parties value something. That's great. So help me bridge the gap back to the discussion at hand:
I am in the you should charge camp. I have two friends that wanted to be able to capture their own photos of their sons because I can't be everywhere all of the time. They bought rebels and inexpensive tele lenses and couldn't understand why their photos still weren't as good. One of them signed up for a photography class and at least now she doesn't have anxiety going beyond the P on the Canon dial. Her pictures are improving and that is a good thing. She still needs to work on framing, timing and being able to adjust to changing gym lights, cloud cover, night fall.
I spend a lot of time reading and learning. I spend a lot of $$ on equipment and a website. I spend hours sitting on a hard gym floor or standing on the sidelines. I pay my chiropractor $$ to aleviate the pain in my hips and back from those hours. I spend time editing and uploading.
I am happy to donate my shooting time to our drama club and some of our sports teams. If anyone wants prints they can order them from my smugmug site. I don't charge an arm and leg because I want it to be affordable to purchase more than one print. My little bit of revenue generated helped pay for my new 7D. I am increasing my fees now and will start saving/earning my 70-200 2.8. I want it before my son is under the Friday Night Lights.
I will say this.......I always share my smugmug web address with the opposing teams and coaches. I have had more sales from the other teams because they weren't used to having a photographer there to capture the action.
I do upload a few select photos to my facebook so that the athletes can tag themselves and use them as profile pics. That is good PR and has turned into a few Senior shoots because the guys were used to seeing me behind the camera on the sidelines.
I think everyone should be compensated for their time and intellectual knowledge.
I am in the you should charge camp. I have two friends that wanted to be able to capture their own photos of their sons because I can't be everywhere all of the time. They bought rebels and inexpensive tele lenses and couldn't understand why their photos still weren't as good. One of them signed up for a photography class and at least now she doesn't have anxiety going beyond the P on the Canon dial. Her pictures are improving and that is a good thing. She still needs to work on framing, timing and being able to adjust to changing gym lights, cloud cover, night fall.
I spend a lot of time reading and learning. I spend a lot of $$ on equipment and a website. I spend hours sitting on a hard gym floor or standing on the sidelines. I pay my chiropractor $$ to aleviate the pain in my hips and back from those hours. I spend time editing and uploading.
I am happy to donate my shooting time to our drama club and some of our sports teams. If anyone wants prints they can order them from my smugmug site. I don't charge an arm and leg because I want it to be affordable to purchase more than one print. My little bit of revenue generated helped pay for my new 7D. I am increasing my fees now and will start saving/earning my 70-200 2.8. I want it before my son is under the Friday Night Lights.
I will say this.......I always share my smugmug web address with the opposing teams and coaches. I have had more sales from the other teams because they weren't used to having a photographer there to capture the action.
I do upload a few select photos to my facebook so that the athletes can tag themselves and use them as profile pics. That is good PR and has turned into a few Senior shoots because the guys were used to seeing me behind the camera on the sidelines.
I think everyone should be compensated for their time and intellectual knowledge.
I do appreciate your comments. You should read the entire thread to get the context. I feel that my original question has been lost.
If you look around the web you will see your original question always goes down this slippery slope. Unfortunately it always does, doesn't matter what forum you look at. Enjoy what you do, photos are always gifts to me.. I have no kids at the HS I shoot for but have fun doing it. I always want to sell more and the AD hopes I do. Don't be discouraged have fun and make great pictures!!!
I do appreciate your comments. You should read the entire thread to get the context. I feel that my original question has been lost.
A lot has been posted, but if you think about it your original question of "should I charge for services or images" has received an answer of sorts: "It depends."
There is no wrong answer here. If you are willing to risk the joy of a hobby being diminished (maybe it won't) by charging . . . If you will still feel team spirit (charge others but give freebies to teammates of your children if you feel so moved and it helps you feel part of the team) . . .
You don't have any particular moral obligations here. Some pro photogs don't want the market flooded with free images, maybe especially free images of higher quality than is typical of cell phone cameras. Do you owe the industry some allegiance in that regard? I don't think so, because I think that ship has sailed, and I also think the market for expensive (defining that would take a little research) photos of children is quite limited (Ive never seen a pro working any sports event in my area).
There isn't an objective right or wrong. You just weigh the factors and do what feels right. If it doesn't work out as planned, adjust and move forward. Try charging for a while and see what happens to your market and your enjoyment of all aspects of the sports in question. Ask some of your close friends "im thinking of charging. if I had charged for that photo I gave you, would you have bought it for ____ $? How about _____?". Settle on a price and go for it (the only real test of your market).
Posters to this thread on both sides of each of the issues have had valid points. You just have to figure out which of these are priorities for you and which are less so.
It wasn't lost, you just got more than you bargained for because it isn't as simple as think you it is.
Exactly!
As a side note, I did take close to 1000 images this past weekend at a cheerleading competition. I just finished converting thr RAW files to JPEGs for 600 proofs and plan to cut a disk and give it to the gym owners/coaches. They will get it out to all the parents. I'll do final edits on a select number for prints and give parents access. Yes, it will all be free. My wife level-set that expectation...
I sat right next to two professionals photographers when our kids were on the floor. Their prints were $22 for an 8x10 sheet. I can say that the points of view within this thread crossed my mind before and after each team/solo that I shot. Save the parents some money, take potential sales from the professionals, enjoy the day, get all the kids and don't forget to get my daughter in focus were just a few random thoiughts.
In the end I had fun and decided not to worry so much. My photography did get better as the two days progressed - IMHO. This is measured by the keeper rate and composition. I now know there is such a thing as being too close and one lens doesn't cover everything... Perhaps it's time for a second body for my 14-54 MKII lense?
Now, how should I pay for that? Sorry, I couldn't resist!
I have been taking pics of my son at his weekly baseball matches. there is no other shooter there ever but a few of the parents try and take pics with their Digi SLR's and are invairably dissapointed. they also got the T&I shots back a few weeks ago and they were crappier than usual. I haven't bothered tendering for them the last few years as there is a company that charges less than I'm prepared to make for the effort but the pics are always crap but the committe is sucked in by low prices and high commissions. If the rest of the teams are as unhappy as the parents on my sons team were, maybe I'll have a shot at getting the gig next year.
I usually don't go to enough games to get friendly with the other parents but there was quite a few this year that my son has been playing with since he and they started which is over 8 years now. There were a few I didn't know but all seemed friendly.
A few asked me if I could get shots of their kids and even offered to pay.
I don't regularly photograph other peoples kids as i have in the past and basically it became too much time and trouble than what I wanted to go to. The season was drawing to a close so I decided to shoot all the kids for them, the parents and to give me some more practice and improving my shots as i have seen a lot of pics of the sport that are better than mine.
I shot all the kids over the last 3 games and also got some brilliant pics that will be excellent for any promos I want to do. I put all the shots on a disk barring my sons Friend who I made a seperate disk for and had a lot of shots of him from a couple of years back as well.
I Printed all the Disks as I do for the events I do regularly and put the team shot on the disk with the team name and all my usual business contact info.
My son modified the Slick we put in teh DVD case with some of his PS magic and the back of the slick had my typical advertising and info blurb on the back. I did a disk for each kid and gave them to the coach who gave them out at the end of the last game which was Saturday.
The coach is a pretty knock about guy and is always in trouble with the association for speaking his mind so him and I get on like a house on fire and I am damn appreciative that my son has him for a coach and I have told the bloke as much and a few other softs on the committes that he upsets with his non politically correct mannerisms that always puts the interests of the kids rather than policys first.
Now the reason I did the discs could be said to be selfish as i wanted to practice my work, could be that I wanted to do some advertising or could be something else. In any event I got the warm and fuzzies for doing something for the kids.
In any event, what I wasn't expecting at all was the reaction from the coach especially. My son said when he pulled the disks out of the bag he kind of stopped what he was saying, looked them over, opend one up and saw the printed disk and said F*** me, look at this! under his breath.
He then went on to give the kids a quick lecture on the fact there was a lot of work in doing these disks and what a gift it was. Some kids asked my son how I did them and he said its what we do on the weekends for our business. Another kid asked how much we charged for that and my son said over $100 but there is more pics of every player on there than what we would do at events.
I was talking to some parents when the kids came out of the dugout and one came up to me and thanked me for the phots and shook my hand and then there was the whole team there. the coach was at the end of the line and I swear had a the start of a tear in his eye. He thanked me and spoke for some time about how the kids would look back on the pics in years to come. He said that being a bunch of know it all 16 yo's they probably wouldn't appreciate the pics now as much as they would in 5 years time when they grew a brain and how that was really a gift like no other.
By this time I was starting to wonderif he was geeing me up for a joke but clearly he wasn't. One of the parents came over to thank me and the coach wandered off to where the other parents were chatting . My wife was standing there and said he came over and someone mentioned the disk . He said he knew noting about it and he hoped that they had all thanked me because if they hadn't they better get their backsides over to me and do so.
So they did.
It wasn't really a big thing to do on my part and I certainly wasn't giving the kids a kidney or a blood transfusion but it did seem to be very well appreciated far more than I thought.
I think this is maybe the happy medium for me.
Just shoot some games, bundle the pics on a disk and there you go. I got at least 30 solid keepers of each kid and plenty more of others who are more " active" in the game.
A lot of the kids play other sports particularly in the winter so maybe I'll get some work from another association after a parent puts my name forward.
If I do great, if not, dosen't matter, I think my small effort has been rewarded already.
I sat right next to two professionals photographers when our kids were on the floor.
Curious as to which meet this was.
Their prints were $22 for an 8x10 sheet. I can say that the points of view within this thread crossed my mind before and after each team/solo that I shot. Save the parents some money, take potential sales from the professionals, enjoy the day, get all the kids and don't forget to get my daughter in focus were just a few random thoiughts.
Comments
On the other hand, at least someone responded to a post that I made. Most of the time I'm just ignored.
Doug and Cathy
www.goldenstarphoto.com
http://www.facebook.com/artist.goldenstarphoto?ref=hl
Oh please ... the second to last line is pure BS ... the subject matter is far too complex to be trivialized by such a simple and fallacious statement. If one is so small that they cannot see beyond their wallet ... then yeah, everything they do and touch can be measured by coin ... but only by themselves or another of similar sight. Just because one allows money to be the most important element in their daily life does not mean that this concept is true for others nor does it make it right.
Not placing a value on a picture in no way makes it valueless. In fact the most valued objects in the world are considered "priceless".
As stated earlier, I donate my time pro bono to local high school. For Christmas the drama teacher gave me $100 gift card thanking me for shooting her plays. I returned the card with a nice thank you but it wasn't necessary note. There are high roads and a low roads in life. I prefer the high road even if it does cost me a few nickels and dimes. Meeting people halfway or more than halfway, being fair and honorable with people has paid off in the long run professionally and personally. I've never felt compelled to ask strangers how they felt about me giving my works away freely. I knew for me, it was the right thing to do ... and I always took something to the pot luck.
Once again, this is a simple choice of GIVING to the team and people you've just spent an entire season or TAKING a few dollars from your child's teammates.
A very smart business associate told me of the LA Times test (I live in Southern California). If you're struggling with an action or decision ... makes that action/decision into a headline ... then choose the headline you would rather have everybody read. Which headline would your prefer ... "Mark Gives Photographs to Team" ... or "Mark Takes Teammates' Money for Pictures."
Gary
Unsharp at any Speed
I am not arguing any of those points.
For "1)"
As a former news photog I know the value of photography as it was my profession and livelihood. A quality photograph has merit. A quality photograph potentially can be sold. That does not mean it has to be sold or should be sold.
Mark is not dealing with strangers. He is dealing with the team, people he sees every week. I am so perplexed by greed that one would want to stick it to the team. I honestly cannot understand that way of thinking. I know it happens everyday ... I would not be surprised it it happened to one of my children's teams ... but I still cannot understand the greed.
For "2)"
I would say that the value of photography has gone down in all sectors, not only sports photography. Two basic reasons, dSLR are now fairly cheap and everybody has a computer (in the past darkrooms were rare and separated the men from the boys), and most people haven't any concept or skills to determine the quality of a photo (and if it's of their own child ... et cetera).
I do not know enough of how "Sports Photography" works to argue any point. I only give away images to people I know, the team families. I strongly believe in helping out on and off the field. With the exception of tournaments, I am the only "real" photog around. At tourney's the parents buy photos of their kids even though they'll get mine for free.
Markets are forever changing. The internet is wiping out newspapers ... electronic sensors has practically wiped out film ... in order to stay viable, stay alive ... one has to be flexible, change and adapt with the times and technology. Dinosaurs didn't believe in meteors.
Gary
Unsharp at any Speed
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I am not sure if I should take offense?
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Would it make a difference if I also managed three teams, scheduled all the local games and practices, coordinated all the tournaments, made hotels arrangements, find teams and setup away games, manage the teams' bank accounts and finances, registered the team rosters, order all team supplies, picked out and purchased the uniforms, made the logo for the jerseys, send out all newsletters and communications, maintain our portion of the website (three teams = three login areas), carry the water bottles to the benches, work the time clock when needed, man the penalty box door, carry tissues for players' runny noses and the parents' occasional watery eyes. And, I take photos and edit the images...<o:p></o:p>
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I do all that and still pay an equal share for my son to play.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
You now have additional background for more context in regard to my original question. The word “greed” has a strong negative connotation. Still, I respect your right to an opinion on an open forum. Perhaps you’ll now reconsider your position or choice of words? It was never my intent to “stick it to the team”.<o:p></o:p>
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Best regards,<o:p></o:p>
-Mark<o:p></o:p>
Well, you made an excellent suggestion. Even though the tax rules don't work the way we could wish, I think your idea of giving the photos away and asking for a donation for the team is a great way to offset team costs.
Chooka chooka hoo la ley
Looka looka koo la ley
I apologize for the choice of words ... but things quickly seemed to have heated up ... I place a high value on human characteristics friendship and helping, contributing to others and the community ... and far less value on materialistic goods and money.
Until I get dictatorial powers ... this is a free country do as you may. All those other things are great that you contribute to the team ... they truly are ... but if you didn't step-up ... someone else would ... I doubt the team would spend any money to pay someone for all the coordination. Anyway ... you write your hometown newspaper banner headline the way you choose and I'll write mine.
Gary
Unsharp at any Speed
The funny thing is that it was the parents that brought this matter to my attention in the first place. (See the original post) I then brought it here for discussion because I figured that I couldn't be the first person in this situtaion. There are other parents with websites and charging... For the record, I haven't taken a single cent for any images, and, there are over 1000 edited full size jpegs (and counting) free to download. As indicated a few threads ago, I may make a consolidated and indexed disk (for convenience) and charge a small fee to cover my costs of the disks.
I appreciate the open dialogue and no offense has been taken.
-Mark
There is a cost of doing business coupled with a desired profit margin. Then there is the price that customer is willing to pay, no matter what the costs of doing business happen to be. If a business is lucky their costs are below what the customer is willing to pay.
Too many photographers seem to think that pricing is simply one-sided debate.
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
When I told the track owner that I needed to take a haitus due to spinal surgery he got me in touch with a track member who happens to be in the medical supply field and knows all the surgeons and has a solid grasp of the procedures. I never met this guy, even yet, but that did not stop him from answering any and every question and concern that Amy and I had over the surgeon scheduled to do the procedure, what this procedure was, what I could expect, etc. He was huge help. He didn't know me, we haven't met. But just because Eric asked him to help me out he did.
No dime changed hands for his advice and expertise, gained over his career and hard work.
Once I feel able to I'm going to be photographing one or two of his (very nice) track cars with a private session at the track. I'll be giving him a CD. Free of charge.
The track is gong to let us have time, alone, on the track to ourselves to do this session. Free of charge.
I challenge anyone who thinks that value is only measure in coin to seriously reconsider things.
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
Your situation illustrates my point: a product/service is valued at whatever a customer would be willing to pay in terms of goods/services/monies. The person at the track valued your services enough to provide a service to you when you need it. In turn, his advice is valuable enough to you that you wish to compensate him for it.
So, for the upteenth time - no a person doesn't have to actually pay for something for that something to have value to them. I merely put forth the notion that if it DOES have value to them they should be willing to give something back in terms of goods/services/monies. It doesn't have to be a 1 for 1 exchange. Let me try to phrase it another way: if Customer A receives a product/service for free and a reporter were interviewing them and asked:
Reporter: do you value that product?
Customer A: Sure
Reporter: if the supplier was charging $5 for that product would you still want it?
Customer: I don't think so
Reporter: I understand you like to bake pies. Have you ever considered baking a pie for the supplier to thank him/her
Customer: no, not really - that takes a couple hours.
This is a scenario where Customer A places no value on the product. They would be willing to do without it if they had to actually DO or PAY anything to get it. I purposely worded the second question that way - such that it wasn't like the supplier was asking for a pie just whether or not the customer felt the product/service was worth the same as their own time/skill.
In the above scenario, if things had gone this way:
Reporter: do you value that product?
Customer A: Sure
Reporter: if the supplier was charging $5 for that product would you still want it?
Customer: I don't think so
Reporter: I understand you like to bake pies. Have you ever considered baking a pie for the supplier to thank him/her
Customer: that's a great idea. I enjoy his product and one of my home made pies is a great way to thank him for his time/efforts.
In that scenario, Customer A does value the product.
My point is: just because a person accepts something for free doesn't mean they value it. You don't know. Again, it isn't about what they have given in the past - it's about what they would be willing to give. By the way - even if they don't value the product it doesn't make them bad people.
I'm small for seeing costs? Please
You put yourself on a high pedestal for donating time, pictures or whatever you do but there are still costs and value on that. A stay at home mom/dad does thing out of love but their is till a cost involved. When you use the term "donate" that puts value on your actions. Whether you charge or not is up to you
Your headline scenario is ridiculous. Do you donate your time to your employer or those you provide services for or do you invoice? Do the referees donate their time to officiate the games? Do the sponsors of the teams donate jerseys but not put their name on the jerseys? Does the t-shirt company just abosrb the costs of making the jerseys just because it is jr league? Does the electric company donate electricity if the games are at night?
People are making money off these games like the after game celebration at McDonald's. For you to make people who charge photos into bad guys is just plain wrong.
I did hockey cards for my teams this year (parents paid for the cost to get them printed) it just adds to the total(team) experience of the game .
Up until now I have had to use my 70-300 is usm or my buddy's 100-400 L
Tonight i am getting my hands on a 70-200 2.8 L for the weekend (3 games) The photos should get even better !!!
With Money comes expectations and Headaches .To me making someone smile is all the compensation i want!
+1
Actions mean something. A man tells his woman he loves her. Its easy to say. Her car breaks down and calls her man to pick her up. He says he can't because he is watching the game. He values the game over her.
A photographer can be told how much their pictures are appreciated and thought of. People tell them they should charge because they are that good. The photog starts charging and people don't buy because another parent is giving away pictures. Did the parents value the pictures or valued them because they were free?
You really think the track owner, Eric, had their track member, Mark, whom I've never met, talk to me about my questions and worries because they valued my photography? Or that Mark valued the track enough to do a favor for Eric, who valued my photography enough.... You're drawing quite a web here.
Its about friendships and relationships and doing nice things for people.
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
1) do people value photography?
2) should someone charge for photography?
I'm certainly not debating the merits of friendships and doing things for friends. I would certainly not suggest that people should not help out friends/family/those less fortunate. I'm trying to stick to the topic - which, as I understand it has followed the above two paths.
Again, regardless of what it is each person "values" in you your situation we see everybody giving something so clearly all 3 parties value something. That's great. So help me bridge the gap back to the discussion at hand:
Is charging for photography good or bad?
Do people value sports photos they get for free?
I am in the you should charge camp. I have two friends that wanted to be able to capture their own photos of their sons because I can't be everywhere all of the time. They bought rebels and inexpensive tele lenses and couldn't understand why their photos still weren't as good. One of them signed up for a photography class and at least now she doesn't have anxiety going beyond the P on the Canon dial. Her pictures are improving and that is a good thing. She still needs to work on framing, timing and being able to adjust to changing gym lights, cloud cover, night fall.
I spend a lot of time reading and learning. I spend a lot of $$ on equipment and a website. I spend hours sitting on a hard gym floor or standing on the sidelines. I pay my chiropractor $$ to aleviate the pain in my hips and back from those hours. I spend time editing and uploading.
I am happy to donate my shooting time to our drama club and some of our sports teams. If anyone wants prints they can order them from my smugmug site. I don't charge an arm and leg because I want it to be affordable to purchase more than one print. My little bit of revenue generated helped pay for my new 7D. I am increasing my fees now and will start saving/earning my 70-200 2.8. I want it before my son is under the Friday Night Lights.
I will say this.......I always share my smugmug web address with the opposing teams and coaches. I have had more sales from the other teams because they weren't used to having a photographer there to capture the action.
I do upload a few select photos to my facebook so that the athletes can tag themselves and use them as profile pics. That is good PR and has turned into a few Senior shoots because the guys were used to seeing me behind the camera on the sidelines.
I think everyone should be compensated for their time and intellectual knowledge.
http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/pages/Cr8ingWaves-Photography/119946782908?ref=ts
Very well put!
Andy
http://andygriffinphoto.com/
http://andygriffin.smugmug.com/
Canon 7D, 70-200mm L, 50 and 85 primes, Tamron 17-50, 28-135
I do appreciate your comments. You should read the entire thread to get the context. I feel that my original question has been lost.
If you look around the web you will see your original question always goes down this slippery slope. Unfortunately it always does, doesn't matter what forum you look at. Enjoy what you do, photos are always gifts to me.. I have no kids at the HS I shoot for but have fun doing it. I always want to sell more and the AD hopes I do. Don't be discouraged have fun and make great pictures!!!
www.phabulousphotos.com
Sportsshooter.com Member
http://www.sportsshooter.com/members.html?id=10162
A lot has been posted, but if you think about it your original question of "should I charge for services or images" has received an answer of sorts: "It depends."
There is no wrong answer here. If you are willing to risk the joy of a hobby being diminished (maybe it won't) by charging . . . If you will still feel team spirit (charge others but give freebies to teammates of your children if you feel so moved and it helps you feel part of the team) . . .
You don't have any particular moral obligations here. Some pro photogs don't want the market flooded with free images, maybe especially free images of higher quality than is typical of cell phone cameras. Do you owe the industry some allegiance in that regard? I don't think so, because I think that ship has sailed, and I also think the market for expensive (defining that would take a little research) photos of children is quite limited (Ive never seen a pro working any sports event in my area).
There isn't an objective right or wrong. You just weigh the factors and do what feels right. If it doesn't work out as planned, adjust and move forward. Try charging for a while and see what happens to your market and your enjoyment of all aspects of the sports in question. Ask some of your close friends "im thinking of charging. if I had charged for that photo I gave you, would you have bought it for ____ $? How about _____?". Settle on a price and go for it (the only real test of your market).
Posters to this thread on both sides of each of the issues have had valid points. You just have to figure out which of these are priorities for you and which are less so.
Chooka chooka hoo la ley
Looka looka koo la ley
It wasn't lost, you just got more than you bargained for because it isn't as simple as think you it is.
Exactly!
As a side note, I did take close to 1000 images this past weekend at a cheerleading competition. I just finished converting thr RAW files to JPEGs for 600 proofs and plan to cut a disk and give it to the gym owners/coaches. They will get it out to all the parents. I'll do final edits on a select number for prints and give parents access. Yes, it will all be free. My wife level-set that expectation...
I sat right next to two professionals photographers when our kids were on the floor. Their prints were $22 for an 8x10 sheet. I can say that the points of view within this thread crossed my mind before and after each team/solo that I shot. Save the parents some money, take potential sales from the professionals, enjoy the day, get all the kids and don't forget to get my daughter in focus were just a few random thoiughts.
In the end I had fun and decided not to worry so much. My photography did get better as the two days progressed - IMHO. This is measured by the keeper rate and composition. I now know there is such a thing as being too close and one lens doesn't cover everything... Perhaps it's time for a second body for my 14-54 MKII lense?
Now, how should I pay for that? Sorry, I couldn't resist!
I usually don't go to enough games to get friendly with the other parents but there was quite a few this year that my son has been playing with since he and they started which is over 8 years now. There were a few I didn't know but all seemed friendly.
A few asked me if I could get shots of their kids and even offered to pay.
I don't regularly photograph other peoples kids as i have in the past and basically it became too much time and trouble than what I wanted to go to. The season was drawing to a close so I decided to shoot all the kids for them, the parents and to give me some more practice and improving my shots as i have seen a lot of pics of the sport that are better than mine.
I shot all the kids over the last 3 games and also got some brilliant pics that will be excellent for any promos I want to do. I put all the shots on a disk barring my sons Friend who I made a seperate disk for and had a lot of shots of him from a couple of years back as well.
I Printed all the Disks as I do for the events I do regularly and put the team shot on the disk with the team name and all my usual business contact info.
My son modified the Slick we put in teh DVD case with some of his PS magic and the back of the slick had my typical advertising and info blurb on the back. I did a disk for each kid and gave them to the coach who gave them out at the end of the last game which was Saturday.
The coach is a pretty knock about guy and is always in trouble with the association for speaking his mind so him and I get on like a house on fire and I am damn appreciative that my son has him for a coach and I have told the bloke as much and a few other softs on the committes that he upsets with his non politically correct mannerisms that always puts the interests of the kids rather than policys first.
Now the reason I did the discs could be said to be selfish as i wanted to practice my work, could be that I wanted to do some advertising or could be something else. In any event I got the warm and fuzzies for doing something for the kids.
In any event, what I wasn't expecting at all was the reaction from the coach especially. My son said when he pulled the disks out of the bag he kind of stopped what he was saying, looked them over, opend one up and saw the printed disk and said F*** me, look at this! under his breath.
He then went on to give the kids a quick lecture on the fact there was a lot of work in doing these disks and what a gift it was. Some kids asked my son how I did them and he said its what we do on the weekends for our business. Another kid asked how much we charged for that and my son said over $100 but there is more pics of every player on there than what we would do at events.
I was talking to some parents when the kids came out of the dugout and one came up to me and thanked me for the phots and shook my hand and then there was the whole team there. the coach was at the end of the line and I swear had a the start of a tear in his eye. He thanked me and spoke for some time about how the kids would look back on the pics in years to come. He said that being a bunch of know it all 16 yo's they probably wouldn't appreciate the pics now as much as they would in 5 years time when they grew a brain and how that was really a gift like no other.
By this time I was starting to wonderif he was geeing me up for a joke but clearly he wasn't. One of the parents came over to thank me and the coach wandered off to where the other parents were chatting . My wife was standing there and said he came over and someone mentioned the disk . He said he knew noting about it and he hoped that they had all thanked me because if they hadn't they better get their backsides over to me and do so.
So they did.
It wasn't really a big thing to do on my part and I certainly wasn't giving the kids a kidney or a blood transfusion but it did seem to be very well appreciated far more than I thought.
I think this is maybe the happy medium for me.
Just shoot some games, bundle the pics on a disk and there you go. I got at least 30 solid keepers of each kid and plenty more of others who are more " active" in the game.
A lot of the kids play other sports particularly in the winter so maybe I'll get some work from another association after a parent puts my name forward.
If I do great, if not, dosen't matter, I think my small effort has been rewarded already.
http://www.knippixels.com
Curious as to which meet this was.
This is worth a more in-depth discussion later.
John
Canon shooter