I think it would be good for them to come out an declare who their target audience is. That way everyone knows what to expect and what they are getting into.
I think their different account levels show who their target audience is: Basic to Pro.
Whether they fulfill the needs of each of those levels depends on the person.
Thanks for the feedback Phil! We realize we didn't have the full scope of Getting Started content we would have liked. We take full responsibility for that, and I do apologize.
Michael
I viewed about 45 minutes of the 1 hour 28 minute video you have on Youtube. Big help. Website update is well underway now, including new domain name. Have not unveiled it because I want to have it completely finished before I send update notice to lots of people.
I do suggest that Smugmug take some time and create a dozen or so short videos on key customization components. It will save you a lot of help desk time I believe and will have happier customers.
New domain name PhilImaging.com from LifeInFocusExpressions.com.
Video tutorials could be done with tools like Photodex's Proshow Producer. Select a topic, capture screens, add voice to each "slide" and generate a video. In the long run this could be easier because as things change you can update a tutorial more easily - just replace one or more of the slides. Plus, you could allow them to be downloaded to viewed offline.
I do not agree with the open letter.
At first I couldn't work with the new SmugMug either, but you just try, try and try again and you'll get the hang of it.
I do agree that there's too little help topics, but isn't that what dGrin's for?
And please be patient, it's only been 5 days, some (a lot) of bugs can be expected. And like a lot of people said: they're working hard at it, not just what we see, but also behind the scenes. Cut them some slack.
The wisest men follow their own direction - Euripides
And please be patient, it's only been 5 days, some (a lot) of bugs can be expected. And like a lot of people said: they're working hard at it, not just what we see, but also behind the scenes. Cut them some slack.
That's a very interesting attitude.
If you bought a new car, home or whatever would you also be so tolerant of problems?
Your new car suddenly stops dead on a highway because of a software bug, just "cut them some slack"?
The new home you moved into doesn't have a furnace or air conditioning because the builder was too busy working on the landscaping... but "they're working on it".
Nonsense.
David summed up many people's frustrations quite well. After more than two years of development (and lots of promises from the SM team) I think most people expected better than what we have...
If you bought a new car, home or whatever would you also be so tolerant of problems?
Your new car suddenly stops dead on a highway because of a software bug, just "cut them some slack"?
.
Stop comparing buying a car to paying for a membership to access a website. You car didn't cost $25/month (at most).
How about software? Have you ever bought a software that never had any bugs? Do software in your idyllic world start and end with version 1.0?
5 days and plenty of bugs have been already fixed. I call this "greatly efficient".
Wonderful thread, lots of well thought out and reasoned critiques of the problems with the new set-ups, pretty well being ignored by the Smugmug cheerleaders, while complimentary comments are repeated and praised by said cheerleaders.
Smugmug just don't get it. The new layouts look great at first glance, very bright and colourful, people keep calling them "sexy". But they are full of bugs. It isn't the "minority" who are struggling with this, while the vast majority of Smuggers whoop and holler with joy and the new changes. I've been with Smug for 6 years and have dozens of close friends who are Smuggers too. I'd say at a rough estimate that 20% are happy while 80% of us are increasingly frustrated.
For something that has supposedly been so long in the planning, and also apparently giving us what we want, how come so many of us are struggling? How come so many of us are saying that we didn't want these changes? Of course Smug could never please everyone, and any changes are fraught with difficulties that need to be worked through, but please Smugmug admit the scale of the problems. I used to love Smugmug, and recommended it to all my photographer friends for years. But those days have gone. The constant downtime, glitches, upgrades that don't work, and above all the cultish refusal to acknowledge any problems is wearing many of us down.
Thanks for the feedback Phil! We realize we didn't have the full scope of Getting Started content we would have liked. We take full responsibility for that, and I do apologize.
Michael
I am brand new and did not make the choice to join SmugMug unit I'd seen the preview.
You really do require much better self-help instruction, possibilities, and tutorials ASAP.
There's a lot of stuff going on here that sort of assumes a tinkering, power user mentality on behalf of the user. It's daunting, to say the least.
I was expecting some sort of navigation system for viewers of my site that somewhat replicates what people use when organizing their own photo files. The Organization option for the content provider end works quite well (if a bit tedious to set up). But what I am finding vexing is that basic navigation for my end-users is very poor as if the large size photowall concept has taken over.
Most of the friends and family members who will view my site also use apps like iPhoto or LR, or Aperture, or Picasa, (or even Flickr) where the default behaviour is some sort of navigation through a folder-gallery-album system,usually down the left side. I cannot find a way to give my viewers the same way of navigating they are used to on their apps; something reasonably familiar.
Without that I am finding the need to anticipate multiple trips back to Home or re-clicking back. What I see to organize should, as an option, be how my viewers navigate. Obviously I hide some content, but within this new system it's not obvious how to set up a familiar navigation system.
And I never used the old SmugMug. Totally new here. Thx
Just keep in mind that the tiny minority who are not happy with the change are the most vocal ones. Probably thousands of others are happy and aren't encountering any issues.
The tech team is working behind the scenes and they have proven that they are efficient. many of the bugs are already fixed.
Just be patient, it's been what, a few days?
Just add me in to the unhappy "minority." This line of thinking is incredibly self-serving, and has proven to be wrong on so many counts. It's the cockroach theory all over again. See one run across your floor? Oh, it's just a rogue bug from the next door neighbors.....
My big beef is that they made all these changes, and were CLEARLY not up to the task of dealing with the issues and help needed to resolve the problems. A sign of very poor management. And the reactions have been classic as well, blaming the people who have issues and taking the pie-in-the-sky attitude toward the changes.
Just add me in to the unhappy "minority." This line of thinking is incredibly self-serving, and has proven to be wrong on so many counts. It's the cockroach theory all over again. See one run across your floor? Oh, it's just a rogue bug from the next door neighbors.....
My big beef is that they made all these changes, and were CLEARLY not up to the task of dealing with the issues and help needed to resolve the problems. A sign of very poor management. And the reactions have been classic as well, blaming the people who have issues and taking the pie-in-the-sky attitude toward the changes.
Thanks to the OP for posting this.
Mark
My issue is not with the new design itself. Smugmug must try to please thousands of users with common designs and options. We can't always get every feature we want for the $$ smug mug charges, that's why people build their own sites
My issue, again, is with the lack of training materials which frankly would have required huge effort up front, but would have pre-empted many complaints and individualized questions being fired at user support.
I want my smug mug to be a turn-key operation which is easy for me to set up and use. Am very busy, thankfully, trave;ing and producing new images for my "fans". I hope the dust has settled when I get back and I can "migrate" within smug mug without spending hours reading threads and using trial and error. That's all i want from smugmug.
Stop comparing buying a car to paying for a membership to access a website. You car didn't cost $25/month (at most).
So because something costs less I should have lower standards?
And SM has made far more than the basic cost of a Pro membership from me over the last six years because of their 15% take on sales of my pictures, so "at most" does not apply.
How about software? Have you ever bought a software that never had any bugs? Do software in your idyllic world start and end with version 1.0?
By my reckoning this is at least SM 2.0 not v1. And rarely do you see software double in price while removing significant features that many of the customers are using.
5 days and plenty of bugs have been already fixed. I call this "greatly efficient".
Imagine the lack of furor if they had just held off another month and done some additional testing to clean up those five days worth of bugs.
But we all know they couldn't do that... Passing the one year anniversary of the price hike without releasing the new SmugMug would have been very bad indeed.
BTW - Using your paying customers as beta (or perhaps even alpha) testers is certainly cheaper than paying people to do the testing, so I guess "greatly efficient" would be one way to describe it.
Glad you liked the process! It's nice not having to code, isn't it?
When the functionality exists in the base offering, yes, I agree.
When the OPTION to code to add features that have been asked for for over 5 years and are critical for some users are removed? No, then it's terrible not being able to code.
When the functionality exists in the base offering, yes, I agree.
When the OPTION to code to add features that have been asked for for over 5 years and are critical for some users are removed? No, then it's terrible not being able to code.
Cheers - N
TalkieT - well said (not just this post, either - most of your other ones we agree with also).
You could sit there 'expecting' or you could stop crying like big babies and get on with it. You all seem to have a lot of time available to bounce from thread to thread here. Spend the time to fix your site or to look for another provider. Personally I'm sick of all your moaning. You're doing it for attention. If I had a problem with the new Smugmug I would be fixing it while my leagacy was still available for customers. Not unveiling it and then moaning it doesn't work. If I couldn't fix it I'd message them, not blurt out some of the nonsense some pros seem available and more than willing to do, in a forum. For such 'busy' people. (amateurs have commitments too) you seem to have more than enough time on your hands judging by your high profile on forums and other platforms. Give the new Smugmug to your kids to play with for a couple of hours. They'll sort it out for you.
You could sit there 'expecting' or you could stop crying like big babies and get on with it. You all seem to have a lot of time available to bounce from thread to thread here. Spend the time to fix your site or to look for another provider. Personally I'm sick of all your moaning. You're doing it for attention. If I had a problem with the new Smugmug I would be fixing it while my leagacy was still available for customers. Not unveiling it and then moaning it doesn't work. If I couldn't fix it I'd message them, not blurt out some of the nonsense some pros seem available and more than willing to do, in a forum. For such 'busy' people. (amateurs have commitments too) you seem to have more than enough time on your hands judging by your high profile on forums and other platforms. Give the new Smugmug to your kids to play with for a couple of hours. They'll sort it out for you.
Your insults are unwelcome. "Crying like big babies?". I am looking at other providers but I'd prefer to stay with Smugmug because of the fact I have 70k+ images uploaded here and am generally a big fan of the historical level of customisation.
You clearly haven't been around long compared to some people here but Smugmug actively encouraged people in the past to extend their sites with Javascript customisations - they assisted at times and have even used the fact that Paypal could be integrated as justifications on occasion for not doing self fulfilment or proper foreign currency support.
I'm whinging long and loud because Smugmug have a history of not acknowledging legitimate complaints and I want to make sure people understand that functionality you build with today can and will get taken away from you if it suits them.
They have a policy of never announcing upcoming features (for a combination of understandable and crazy reasons) but seem wilfully ignorant of the insecurity this creates when their customers hang around (sometimes for half a decade or more) waiting for a feature that they'd "love to do" or one that's "really important" to them.
I do hope that Smugmug reverse their Javascript ban, at least for users prepared to accept an "at your own risk" declaration, or that they keep their legacy architecture running until they can build a couple of the non cosmetic functions that Javascript is used for.
What I expect is utter stony silence from them, except to highlight how great people can make sites look on the New Smugmug, then in 6 months they'll announce that they will force migrate people in another 3 months and all of a sudden then they will just be a template driven site - and not the site allowing deep customisation like they have always promoted themselves as.
Their aspirations and their actions are deeply separated.
Although your reply was a thorough as it was prompt. I stick by my assertion that the time spent here and on other platforms by pros and others who complain constantly, would be better spent fixing your sites or messaging the correct people. You are either preaching to the converted here, or casting your seeds on the stony ground that is, the users that are more than happy to get on with it. Me having been 'here' a short time is about as irrelevant as your last post which to be honest, I stopped reading quite early on as I've seen it all before. I appreciate you have issues with your provider. The chances of you getting resolution by posting here are slim to none because there are better ways to get help. You may not like that some appreciate the effort put in to update the service and feel alienated because it doesn't serve you as you think it should. The answer is of course time and persistence. If you have no time or will to persist. Move on.
It's good to know that Smug is aware of the video tutorial shortfall. Is there a plan to make videos available with a target release date you can share with us? I looked at the example mentioned by Phil above, and the first video on Lightroom has 31,000 views - If Adobe has good tutorials, that's 31,000 emails that the Adobe Tech staff members did't have to deal with on Topic #1 alone.
On another note, visited your converted site and liked not only the site, but also the great body of work.
Most important, glad Rocky is still wagging his stubby little tail - the story grabbed me.
John
Thanks for the kind words John!!! Rocky is still wagging that chubby, gray fur tail 10 and a half now....best years of my life.
I've been with Smug for 6 years and have dozens of close friends who are Smuggers too. I'd say at a rough estimate that 20% are happy while 80% of us are increasingly frustrated.
I respect your opinion, but I think those estimates are incredibly off base. I talk to all the customers. Here, Help Desk, Facebook, Google+, In person....and I can assure you, out of thousands of people I talk to, there aren't 80% unhappy.
Is the New SmugMug right for you at this moment? Maybe not, and I apologize for that. But you have Legacy for a while if you want to use it. Revisit new SmugMug in a couple months and maybe it will fit your needs.
Wonderful thread, lots of well thought out and reasoned critiques of the problems with the new set-ups, pretty well being ignored by the Smugmug cheerleaders, while complimentary comments are repeated and praised by said cheerleaders.
Smugmug just don't get it. The new layouts look great at first glance, very bright and colourful, people keep calling them "sexy". But they are full of bugs. It isn't the "minority" who are struggling with this, while the vast majority of Smuggers whoop and holler with joy and the new changes. I've been with Smug for 6 years and have dozens of close friends who are Smuggers too. I'd say at a rough estimate that 20% are happy while 80% of us are increasingly frustrated.
For something that has supposedly been so long in the planning, and also apparently giving us what we want, how come so many of us are struggling? How come so many of us are saying that we didn't want these changes? Of course Smug could never please everyone, and any changes are fraught with difficulties that need to be worked through, but please Smugmug admit the scale of the problems. I used to love Smugmug, and recommended it to all my photographer friends for years. But those days have gone. The constant downtime, glitches, upgrades that don't work, and above all the cultish refusal to acknowledge any problems is wearing many of us down.
My issue is not with the new design itself. Smugmug must try to please thousands of users with common designs and options. We can't always get every feature we want for the $$ smug mug charges, that's why people build their own sites
My issue, again, is with the lack of training materials which frankly would have required huge effort up front, but would have pre-empted many complaints and individualized questions being fired at user support.
I want my smug mug to be a turn-key operation which is easy for me to set up and use. Am very busy, thankfully, trave;ing and producing new images for my "fans". I hope the dust has settled when I get back and I can "migrate" within smug mug without spending hours reading threads and using trial and error. That's all i want from smugmug.
Understood We will be getting much more help content out shortly. Enjoy your trip!
So if I came on here and said "whoo yeah hey I love the new Smug, it was so easy to migrate my website and now I have the best shop window for my work that I could ever wish for", mbonocore would re-post my words with a reinforcing "hey John glad you're loving the new Smug, isn't everything great"!
But if I came on and said "I've spent 5 days trying to get the new Smug to work and all that has happened is that my galleries are messed up, private galleries have suddenly gone public and I've lost thousands of images" then I would be accused of being a moaner with too much time on my hands!
As I said earlier, about 80% of my Smuggie friends are struggling with this, and we range from amateur to experienced pro. We are not moaners, we have been with Smug for years and we are trying to get something done to make this transition work. After I've spent days getting absolutely nowhere, in fact going backwards and creating problems I didn't have, then I retain the right to complain about it and expect some sort of resolution of the problems. Especially when I'm paying so much money to have my business disrupted by this. I'm on the verge of saying f*** it and just staying with the legacy layout until my subscription runs out, then going elsewhere. If Smug don't want to keep my business after all these years then they are going about it the right way. I want to be part of the greatest photographic website on the planet, but I seem to have found myself in some weird American religious cult where you are not allowed to complain when things don't work, and any form of negativity is ignored or dismissed as moaning
You clearly haven't been around long compared to some people here but Smugmug actively encouraged people in the past to extend their sites with Javascript customisations - they assisted at times and have even used the fact that Paypal could be integrated as justifications on occasion for not doing self fulfilment or proper foreign currency support.
Customization with Javascript on New SmugMug is something we are planning on. It is an active project, however it is a very tricky project. Executing it responsibly presents difficult challenges that we haven't solved yet. But we are taking feedback from our customers as to what exactly they are using JS for, so we can build the tools you need most. PayPal has been a big request so far, so stay tuned.
So if I came on here and said "whoo yeah hey I love the new Smug, it was so easy to migrate my website and now I have the best shop window for my work that I could ever wish for", mbonocore would re-post my words with a reinforcing "hey John glad you're loving the new Smug, isn't everything great"!
But if I came on and said "I've spent 5 days trying to get the new Smug to work and all that has happened is that my galleries are messed up, private galleries have suddenly gone public and I've lost thousands of images" then I would be accused of being a moaner with too much time on my hands!
As I said earlier, about 80% of my Smuggie friends are struggling with this, and we range from amateur to experienced pro. We are not moaners, we have been with Smug for years and we are trying to get something done to make this transition work. After I've spent days getting absolutely nowhere, in fact going backwards and creating problems I didn't have, then I retain the right to complain about it and expect some sort of resolution of the problems. Especially when I'm paying so much money to have my business disrupted by this. I'm on the verge of saying f*** it and just staying with the legacy layout until my subscription runs out, then going elsewhere. If Smug don't want to keep my business after all these years then they are going about it the right way. I want to be part of the greatest photographic website on the planet, but I seem to have found myself in some weird American religious cult where you are not allowed to complain when things don't work, and any form of negativity is ignored or dismissed as moaning
John, I can handle the heat, and I can handle the complaints. So please, don't think that I am giving you a hard time. I just ask for everyone to make their feature requests in the new Feature Request Forum
I am just trying to calmly find out what you all want to see with the New SmugMug. If everyone just posts their features in that forum, it will allow me a more structured approach to bring to my product manager (who has been all over dgrin since launch as well)
I am really trying to answer every comment, but when I have to continually come back to the same threads, read 50 new posts, and repeat everything I have said, that is taking alot of time away from putting together comprehensive lists that we can begin researching. We have heard you loud and clear. We WANT to make this the product you need. I am just asking you to help us out a little. Check the Feature request forum. If what you need isn't there already, please feel free to enter it with clear bullet points as to why YOU need the feature.
Customization with Javascript on New SmugMug is something we are planning on. It is an active project, however it is a very tricky project. Executing it responsibly presents difficult challenges that we haven't solved yet. But we are taking feedback from our customers as to what exactly they are using JS for, so we can build the tools you need most. PayPal has been a big request so far, so stay tuned.
I'm a little confused by this. Are you saying that you are planning on adding javascript functionality, so users can add whatever js they like (perhaps with a few caveats)? Or are you saying that you’re looking into adding support for certain uses of js, which, imho, will always cover a small fraction of useful cases....
I'm a little confused by this. Are you saying that you are planning on adding javascript functionality, so users can add whatever js they like (perhaps with a few caveats)? Or are you saying that you’re looking into adding support for certain uses of js, which, imho, will always cover a small fraction of useful cases....
Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
That all depends on the cases provided to us. We need to know what JS tools you need so we can develop accordingly.
That all depends on the cases provided to us. We need to know what JS tools you need so we can develop accordingly.
umm...why not just provide US with the JS options that we have already in the so-called "legacy" SM?
You're never going to cover 100% of use-cases (nor would you be expected to), so why not let US decide how we use. Just provide US with the tools - we and the user community can do the rest (as we have done for years!).
At least then the "new" SM will stand out from the rest of the crowd by allowing those of us who NEED and WANT to be different than the hundred-odd other template sites.
As someone smartly mentioned before, this isn't Flickr we're talking about here.
FYI you're doing a good job replying to all the queries here, so nothing personal
FYI you're doing a good job replying to all the queries here, so nothing personal
Thank you No offense ever taken...unless you make fun of my dog :duel
But we can sit here and argue about this, or we can work on identifying the tools you guys need. I would hate to have this back and forth continue, and then you are left out in the cold because you never told us what JS tools you needed
Please place the JS tools you need individually in the Feedback Forum
I'll never make fun of any dog - only ours - he has only three legs (caught in a wild boar trap here in Singapore). Unless it's an ugly dog also, then I think ugly dog owners can each call each others dogs ugly!!
I think Michael, you've missed the point we ( being ourselves ) and other people are saying... why not give us the ability to DECIDE if we want that extra customisation. JS is important to many of us, and allows us to do our OWN work over the top of the PLATFORM we purchase from you.
WE purchase a PLATFORM - However WE make OUR own SOLUTIONS to our individual needs.
JS isn't the answer overall - we all know that. But HTML5 isn't going to always be the answer EITHER. So, for the moment, give us back the control we had.
Think of it from the use-case scenarios we spoke about - your dev team will NEVER be able to provide toolkits for each and every use-case. Leave that responsibility to us.
I'll never make fun of any dog - only ours - he has only three legs (caught in a wild boar trap here in Singapore). Unless it's an ugly dog also, then I think ugly dog owners can each call each others dogs ugly!!
I think Michael, you've missed the point we ( being ourselves ) and other people are saying... why not give us the ability to DECIDE if we want that extra customisation. JS is important to many of us, and allows us to do our OWN work over the top of the PLATFORM we purchase from you.
WE purchase a PLATFORM - However WE make OUR own SOLUTIONS to our individual needs.
JS isn't the answer overall - we all know that. But HTML5 isn't going to always be the answer EITHER. So, for the moment, give us back the control we had.
Think of it from the use-case scenarios we spoke about - your dev team will NEVER be able to provide toolkits for each and every use-case. Leave that responsibility to us.
We might not be bright, but we pay your bills.
And pats to your puppy!
Well my dog IS ugly....but I love him all the same
I understand what you are wanting...but I am telling you that just releasing full open JS for everyone isn't going to happen right now. So we can continue the back and forth or we can get down to business and work together. So, What do you need?
Think of it from the use-case scenarios we spoke about - your dev team will NEVER be able to provide toolkits for each and every use-case. Leave that responsibility to us.
It's pretty clear SM isn't willing (any more) to "leave that responsibility to us", they want to develop (and control) a handful of JS modules that we would be able to incorporate into our sites.
Call me cynical, but I wouldn't be surprised that if/when a JS Paypal module were released for use that it would include methods for profit collection on SmugMug's behalf.
dave.turley - Six+ years and dozens of events has left me with more images and albums than I care to contemplate, so "whining" at SmugMug to NOT REMOVE FEATURES with their new release seemed like the best solution.
But maybe you're right, it's time to start looking elsewhere instead of trying to continue with SmugMug. They seem hell bent on being like every other "photo sharing" site (templates and eye candy) instead of continuing down the path they started, giving users the ability to truly customize their site.
On the subject of javascript, its been inferred elsewhere that 'certified customisers', such as Fastline Media, have been able to add javascript to smugmug sites. I don't think anyone knows whether the JS on their example sites (e.g. http://fastlinemedia.smugmug.com/?template=Premier&skin=light ) is the result of clever workarounds or Smugmug opening a back door for them, but I would be interested to know what the official line on this is.
Comments
I think their different account levels show who their target audience is: Basic to Pro.
Whether they fulfill the needs of each of those levels depends on the person.
I viewed about 45 minutes of the 1 hour 28 minute video you have on Youtube. Big help. Website update is well underway now, including new domain name. Have not unveiled it because I want to have it completely finished before I send update notice to lots of people.
I do suggest that Smugmug take some time and create a dozen or so short videos on key customization components. It will save you a lot of help desk time I believe and will have happier customers.
New domain name PhilImaging.com from LifeInFocusExpressions.com.
Video tutorials could be done with tools like Photodex's Proshow Producer. Select a topic, capture screens, add voice to each "slide" and generate a video. In the long run this could be easier because as things change you can update a tutorial more easily - just replace one or more of the slides. Plus, you could allow them to be downloaded to viewed offline.
Just an idea.
Phil
"You don't take a photograph, you make it." ~Ansel Adams
Phil
At first I couldn't work with the new SmugMug either, but you just try, try and try again and you'll get the hang of it.
I do agree that there's too little help topics, but isn't that what dGrin's for?
And please be patient, it's only been 5 days, some (a lot) of bugs can be expected. And like a lot of people said: they're working hard at it, not just what we see, but also behind the scenes. Cut them some slack.
http://www.desiree-fotografie.nl
That's a very interesting attitude.
If you bought a new car, home or whatever would you also be so tolerant of problems?
Your new car suddenly stops dead on a highway because of a software bug, just "cut them some slack"?
The new home you moved into doesn't have a furnace or air conditioning because the builder was too busy working on the landscaping... but "they're working on it".
Nonsense.
David summed up many people's frustrations quite well. After more than two years of development (and lots of promises from the SM team) I think most people expected better than what we have...
If it works for you, congratulations.
Stop comparing buying a car to paying for a membership to access a website. You car didn't cost $25/month (at most).
How about software? Have you ever bought a software that never had any bugs? Do software in your idyllic world start and end with version 1.0?
5 days and plenty of bugs have been already fixed. I call this "greatly efficient".
http://www.canvas-of-light.com
http://canvas-of-light.smugmug.com/
Smugmug just don't get it. The new layouts look great at first glance, very bright and colourful, people keep calling them "sexy". But they are full of bugs. It isn't the "minority" who are struggling with this, while the vast majority of Smuggers whoop and holler with joy and the new changes. I've been with Smug for 6 years and have dozens of close friends who are Smuggers too. I'd say at a rough estimate that 20% are happy while 80% of us are increasingly frustrated.
For something that has supposedly been so long in the planning, and also apparently giving us what we want, how come so many of us are struggling? How come so many of us are saying that we didn't want these changes? Of course Smug could never please everyone, and any changes are fraught with difficulties that need to be worked through, but please Smugmug admit the scale of the problems. I used to love Smugmug, and recommended it to all my photographer friends for years. But those days have gone. The constant downtime, glitches, upgrades that don't work, and above all the cultish refusal to acknowledge any problems is wearing many of us down.
I am brand new and did not make the choice to join SmugMug unit I'd seen the preview.
You really do require much better self-help instruction, possibilities, and tutorials ASAP.
There's a lot of stuff going on here that sort of assumes a tinkering, power user mentality on behalf of the user. It's daunting, to say the least.
I was expecting some sort of navigation system for viewers of my site that somewhat replicates what people use when organizing their own photo files. The Organization option for the content provider end works quite well (if a bit tedious to set up). But what I am finding vexing is that basic navigation for my end-users is very poor as if the large size photowall concept has taken over.
Most of the friends and family members who will view my site also use apps like iPhoto or LR, or Aperture, or Picasa, (or even Flickr) where the default behaviour is some sort of navigation through a folder-gallery-album system,usually down the left side. I cannot find a way to give my viewers the same way of navigating they are used to on their apps; something reasonably familiar.
Without that I am finding the need to anticipate multiple trips back to Home or re-clicking back. What I see to organize should, as an option, be how my viewers navigate. Obviously I hide some content, but within this new system it's not obvious how to set up a familiar navigation system.
And I never used the old SmugMug. Totally new here. Thx
Just add me in to the unhappy "minority." This line of thinking is incredibly self-serving, and has proven to be wrong on so many counts. It's the cockroach theory all over again. See one run across your floor? Oh, it's just a rogue bug from the next door neighbors.....
My big beef is that they made all these changes, and were CLEARLY not up to the task of dealing with the issues and help needed to resolve the problems. A sign of very poor management. And the reactions have been classic as well, blaming the people who have issues and taking the pie-in-the-sky attitude toward the changes.
Thanks to the OP for posting this.
Mark
My issue is not with the new design itself. Smugmug must try to please thousands of users with common designs and options. We can't always get every feature we want for the $$ smug mug charges, that's why people build their own sites
My issue, again, is with the lack of training materials which frankly would have required huge effort up front, but would have pre-empted many complaints and individualized questions being fired at user support.
I want my smug mug to be a turn-key operation which is easy for me to set up and use. Am very busy, thankfully, trave;ing and producing new images for my "fans". I hope the dust has settled when I get back and I can "migrate" within smug mug without spending hours reading threads and using trial and error. That's all i want from smugmug.
So because something costs less I should have lower standards?
And SM has made far more than the basic cost of a Pro membership from me over the last six years because of their 15% take on sales of my pictures, so "at most" does not apply.
By my reckoning this is at least SM 2.0 not v1. And rarely do you see software double in price while removing significant features that many of the customers are using.
Imagine the lack of furor if they had just held off another month and done some additional testing to clean up those five days worth of bugs.
But we all know they couldn't do that... Passing the one year anniversary of the price hike without releasing the new SmugMug would have been very bad indeed.
BTW - Using your paying customers as beta (or perhaps even alpha) testers is certainly cheaper than paying people to do the testing, so I guess "greatly efficient" would be one way to describe it.
When the functionality exists in the base offering, yes, I agree.
When the OPTION to code to add features that have been asked for for over 5 years and are critical for some users are removed? No, then it's terrible not being able to code.
Cheers - N
http://www.nzsnaps.com (talkiet.smugmug.com)
TalkieT - well said (not just this post, either - most of your other ones we agree with also).
To the OP - well said also.
http://www.despatchesgallery.com
dave.turley64@gmail.com
http://twitter.com/#!/@Dave_Turley
http://www.developindarkness.com/
Please ask before editing my photographs
Your insults are unwelcome. "Crying like big babies?". I am looking at other providers but I'd prefer to stay with Smugmug because of the fact I have 70k+ images uploaded here and am generally a big fan of the historical level of customisation.
You clearly haven't been around long compared to some people here but Smugmug actively encouraged people in the past to extend their sites with Javascript customisations - they assisted at times and have even used the fact that Paypal could be integrated as justifications on occasion for not doing self fulfilment or proper foreign currency support.
I'm whinging long and loud because Smugmug have a history of not acknowledging legitimate complaints and I want to make sure people understand that functionality you build with today can and will get taken away from you if it suits them.
They have a policy of never announcing upcoming features (for a combination of understandable and crazy reasons) but seem wilfully ignorant of the insecurity this creates when their customers hang around (sometimes for half a decade or more) waiting for a feature that they'd "love to do" or one that's "really important" to them.
I do hope that Smugmug reverse their Javascript ban, at least for users prepared to accept an "at your own risk" declaration, or that they keep their legacy architecture running until they can build a couple of the non cosmetic functions that Javascript is used for.
What I expect is utter stony silence from them, except to highlight how great people can make sites look on the New Smugmug, then in 6 months they'll announce that they will force migrate people in another 3 months and all of a sudden then they will just be a template driven site - and not the site allowing deep customisation like they have always promoted themselves as.
Their aspirations and their actions are deeply separated.
Cheers - N
http://www.nzsnaps.com (talkiet.smugmug.com)
dave.turley64@gmail.com
http://twitter.com/#!/@Dave_Turley
http://www.developindarkness.com/
Please ask before editing my photographs
Thanks for the kind words John!!! Rocky is still wagging that chubby, gray fur tail
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I respect your opinion, but I think those estimates are incredibly off base. I talk to all the customers. Here, Help Desk, Facebook, Google+, In person....and I can assure you, out of thousands of people I talk to, there aren't 80% unhappy.
Is the New SmugMug right for you at this moment? Maybe not, and I apologize for that. But you have Legacy for a while if you want to use it. Revisit new SmugMug in a couple months and maybe it will fit your needs.
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Understood
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But if I came on and said "I've spent 5 days trying to get the new Smug to work and all that has happened is that my galleries are messed up, private galleries have suddenly gone public and I've lost thousands of images" then I would be accused of being a moaner with too much time on my hands!
As I said earlier, about 80% of my Smuggie friends are struggling with this, and we range from amateur to experienced pro. We are not moaners, we have been with Smug for years and we are trying to get something done to make this transition work. After I've spent days getting absolutely nowhere, in fact going backwards and creating problems I didn't have, then I retain the right to complain about it and expect some sort of resolution of the problems. Especially when I'm paying so much money to have my business disrupted by this. I'm on the verge of saying f*** it and just staying with the legacy layout until my subscription runs out, then going elsewhere. If Smug don't want to keep my business after all these years then they are going about it the right way. I want to be part of the greatest photographic website on the planet, but I seem to have found myself in some weird American religious cult where you are not allowed to complain when things don't work, and any form of negativity is ignored or dismissed as moaning
Customization with Javascript on New SmugMug is something we are planning on. It is an active project, however it is a very tricky project. Executing it responsibly presents difficult challenges that we haven't solved yet. But we are taking feedback from our customers as to what exactly they are using JS for, so we can build the tools you need most. PayPal has been a big request so far, so stay tuned.
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John, I can handle the heat, and I can handle the complaints. So please, don't think that I am giving you a hard time. I just ask for everyone to make their feature requests in the new Feature Request Forum
I am just trying to calmly find out what you all want to see with the New SmugMug. If everyone just posts their features in that forum, it will allow me a more structured approach to bring to my product manager (who has been all over dgrin since launch as well)
I am really trying to answer every comment, but when I have to continually come back to the same threads, read 50 new posts, and repeat everything I have said, that is taking alot of time away from putting together comprehensive lists that we can begin researching. We have heard you loud and clear. We WANT to make this the product you need. I am just asking you to help us out a little. Check the Feature request forum. If what you need isn't there already, please feel free to enter it with clear bullet points as to why YOU need the feature.
Thanks.
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I'm a little confused by this. Are you saying that you are planning on adding javascript functionality, so users can add whatever js they like (perhaps with a few caveats)? Or are you saying that you’re looking into adding support for certain uses of js, which, imho, will always cover a small fraction of useful cases....
Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
That all depends on the cases provided to us. We need to know what JS tools you need so we can develop accordingly.
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umm...why not just provide US with the JS options that we have already in the so-called "legacy" SM?
You're never going to cover 100% of use-cases (nor would you be expected to), so why not let US decide how we use. Just provide US with the tools - we and the user community can do the rest (as we have done for years!).
At least then the "new" SM will stand out from the rest of the crowd by allowing those of us who NEED and WANT to be different than the hundred-odd other template sites.
As someone smartly mentioned before, this isn't Flickr we're talking about here.
FYI you're doing a good job replying to all the queries here, so nothing personal
http://www.despatchesgallery.com
Thank you
But we can sit here and argue about this, or we can work on identifying the tools you guys need. I would hate to have this back and forth continue, and then you are left out in the cold because you never told us what JS tools you needed
Please place the JS tools you need individually in the Feedback Forum
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thanks for the clarification...
I think Michael, you've missed the point we ( being ourselves ) and other people are saying... why not give us the ability to DECIDE if we want that extra customisation. JS is important to many of us, and allows us to do our OWN work over the top of the PLATFORM we purchase from you.
WE purchase a PLATFORM - However WE make OUR own SOLUTIONS to our individual needs.
JS isn't the answer overall - we all know that. But HTML5 isn't going to always be the answer EITHER. So, for the moment, give us back the control we had.
Think of it from the use-case scenarios we spoke about - your dev team will NEVER be able to provide toolkits for each and every use-case. Leave that responsibility to us.
We might not be bright, but we pay your bills.
And pats to your puppy!
http://www.despatchesgallery.com
Well my dog IS ugly....but I love him all the same
I understand what you are wanting...but I am telling you that just releasing full open JS for everyone isn't going to happen right now. So we can continue the back and forth or we can get down to business and work together. So, What do you need?
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It's pretty clear SM isn't willing (any more) to "leave that responsibility to us", they want to develop (and control) a handful of JS modules that we would be able to incorporate into our sites.
Call me cynical, but I wouldn't be surprised that if/when a JS Paypal module were released for use that it would include methods for profit collection on SmugMug's behalf.
dave.turley - Six+ years and dozens of events has left me with more images and albums than I care to contemplate, so "whining" at SmugMug to NOT REMOVE FEATURES with their new release seemed like the best solution.
But maybe you're right, it's time to start looking elsewhere instead of trying to continue with SmugMug. They seem hell bent on being like every other "photo sharing" site (templates and eye candy) instead of continuing down the path they started, giving users the ability to truly customize their site.