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New PC advice: Sell me a mac..
NHBubba
Registered Users Posts: 342 Major grins
Okay mac-heads, here's your chance to convert another Wintel'er: Sell me a mac..
I've used Windows PCs since Bell labs introduced the transistor.. okay, maybe not quite that long, but I've used PCs for a long time. I've gone up through the ranks from the dark DOS days to 3.1 to '95 to NT, 2000 and now XP. I am one of those loosers that defends PC's and Windows on Internet chat-rooms and forums.
At home I run an aging AMD Athlon 1400+ w/ 1 GB of RAM and an average video card. My motherboard is pre USB 2.0 and was not equipped w/ firewire or SCSI. So over the years I've tacked on add-on cards to make up for these deficiencies. Considering what I paid for the PC ~3-4 years ago, she's more than paid for herself. I presently run Win2k.
I used to game, but I don't much anymore. I have a console box under the TV to do that. I am a computer professional, but I grow tired of mucking w/ computers after the quiting time whistle blows. That said, I can and certianly don't mind doing it myself if it saves me some money. I am cheaper than Uncle Scrooge ever dreamed of being.
98% of what I do on my PC these days is edit photos using Photoshop CS (too cheap to upgrade to CS2!), balance my checkbook (M$ Money 2003), surf thy web (firefox), and play them tunes (winamp). I've read all 15 some-odd pages of Andy's conversion before he purchased his brownout-inducing quad G5 powerhouse and am just about convinced. I see now that Apple's Mac OSX can do just about everything I need it to do, and do it well. I see the light: OSX is a wonderful thing. I would like to get it. Please show me the way.
Unfortunately I've got that nasty cheapskate streak. So I've priced up what If feel is a pretty nifty new win-tel PC:
So, oh great mac-heads, what is a comparable mac w/ OSX? Ideally I'd expect it to be roughly equivalent to a dual core ~3 GHz P4 (as that's what I think this package is). I do not need a screen as I have a lovely 21" CRT that I am quite comfortable w/, so if there is money to be saved in a mac platform there, please help me do so. (Read: I think that means we can skip the iMacs and eMacs.)
Thanks,
-Colin
I've used Windows PCs since Bell labs introduced the transistor.. okay, maybe not quite that long, but I've used PCs for a long time. I've gone up through the ranks from the dark DOS days to 3.1 to '95 to NT, 2000 and now XP. I am one of those loosers that defends PC's and Windows on Internet chat-rooms and forums.
At home I run an aging AMD Athlon 1400+ w/ 1 GB of RAM and an average video card. My motherboard is pre USB 2.0 and was not equipped w/ firewire or SCSI. So over the years I've tacked on add-on cards to make up for these deficiencies. Considering what I paid for the PC ~3-4 years ago, she's more than paid for herself. I presently run Win2k.
I used to game, but I don't much anymore. I have a console box under the TV to do that. I am a computer professional, but I grow tired of mucking w/ computers after the quiting time whistle blows. That said, I can and certianly don't mind doing it myself if it saves me some money. I am cheaper than Uncle Scrooge ever dreamed of being.
98% of what I do on my PC these days is edit photos using Photoshop CS (too cheap to upgrade to CS2!), balance my checkbook (M$ Money 2003), surf thy web (firefox), and play them tunes (winamp). I've read all 15 some-odd pages of Andy's conversion before he purchased his brownout-inducing quad G5 powerhouse and am just about convinced. I see now that Apple's Mac OSX can do just about everything I need it to do, and do it well. I see the light: OSX is a wonderful thing. I would like to get it. Please show me the way.
Unfortunately I've got that nasty cheapskate streak. So I've priced up what If feel is a pretty nifty new win-tel PC:
- Antec PERFORMANCE TX635 Beige Steel ATX Mini Tower Computer Case 350W Power Supply - Retail - 89.99
- ASUS A8N-SLI Premium Socket 939 NVIDIA nForce4 SLI ATX AMD Motherboard - Retail - 166.99
- XFX PVT43GNDF3 Geforce 6600GT 128MB GDDR3 PCI Express x16 Video Card - Retail - 119.00
- AMD Athlon 64 X2 3800+ Manchester 1GHz FSB Socket 939 Dual Core Processor Model ADA3800BVBOX - Retail - 297.00
- CORSAIR ValueSelect 2GB (2 x 1GB) 184-Pin DDR SDRAM DDR 400 (PC 3200) Unbuffered System Memory Model VS2GBKIT400C3 - Retail - 156.99
- Western Digital Caviar SE WD800JD 80GB 7200 RPM Serial ATA150 Hard Drive - OEM - 55.00
- NEC Beige IDE DVD Burner Model ND-3550A - OEM - 37.99
So, oh great mac-heads, what is a comparable mac w/ OSX? Ideally I'd expect it to be roughly equivalent to a dual core ~3 GHz P4 (as that's what I think this package is). I do not need a screen as I have a lovely 21" CRT that I am quite comfortable w/, so if there is money to be saved in a mac platform there, please help me do so. (Read: I think that means we can skip the iMacs and eMacs.)
Thanks,
-Colin
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Comments
You can maybe also get a refurb for a bit less than that.
But you won't find anything in that price point, save an iMac, and you said you didn't need a monitor.
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
I think most PC folk don't understand just how simple it is to shop for a Mac. There's a handful of great choices. There's SO many options in the PC world that they just can't get used to how it works with Apple.
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
Are you seriously into photo editing and need to save time by having the fastest out there or are you a hobbyist who can wait an extra 30 seconds or a minute or two? (I'm just guessing..I don't know the exact time differences).
Would you be happy with a PowerPC mac or do you want the latest/greatest?
Going the PowerPC route isn't a bad thing...they'll still be viable several years from now. (My G5 powermac will be 3 this fall and still works GREAT)
This is my machine, but I think this is the 2nd generation one:
Refurbished Power Mac G5 Dual 2GHz SuperDrive
512MB DDR400 SDRAM
160GB Serial ATA
16x SuperDrive (double-layer)
Three PCI Slots
ATI Radeon 9600
Original price: $1,999.00
Your price: $1,549.00
Estimated Ship:
7-10 business days
Free Shipping
or jump to the Quad like Andy!
Refurbished Power Mac G5 Quad 2.5GHz
Two dual-core 2.5GHz PowerPC G5 processors
1.25GHz frontside bus per processor
1MB L2 cache per core
512MB of 533MHz DDR2 SDRAM (PC2-4200)
250GB Serial ATA hard drive
16x SuperDrive (double-layer)
NVIDIA GeForce 6600 with 256MB GDDR SDRAM
Original price: $3,299.00
Your price: $2,799.00
Estimated Ship:
1-2 business days
Free Shipping
But if you want to stick to that price point that you built that PC at, then check out the iMac G5's or iMac intels. But consider this...that Windows PC may be cheaper, but you get what you pay for.
If it's seriously OS X that you like, and you want to use photoshop... you don't need the latest and greatest. I'm running Tiger and Photoshop CS on a G4 500 Multi-Processor... bought and installed a DVD/CD burner/reader and it does what I want. I have USB and Firewire...
You can get used machines, less cost. Maybe less speed, etc., but depends on what you want. Getting an older G4 might suit your needs and your pocketbook just as well, yet give you OSX and the Mac experience.
I only use a PC when forced to... (like at the library). Been using Macs since the Apple IIe!
http://www.twitter.com/deegolden
What do people around you use? Can be important when sharing files!
Seb
Someone recently posted nearly the opposite question, they were wondering if they should switch from a mac to a windows. DavidTO, Pathfinder, Andy and others offered some very interesting arguments why they shouldn't. I guess I'm looking for additional arguments why I, as a windows user, should switch.
And then once I'm sold (I'm half
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
That said, I'm not a pro. I don't depend on my PC for a living or anything. Uptime is not critical. Nor am I doing large batches of RAW conversion or anything. I do not have any deadlines. I'm actually not a huge fan of the idea of being an early adopter. Besides, from what I gather Photoshop really won't see any significant performance increases until it is ported to the 'universal' binaries. (I'm sure I'm getting this wrong to some degree, please correct me!) So I wonder I would see any performance improvements w/ the intel-macs anyway..
I'm also looking for tips and tricks to save a buck. For example one thing I've picked up from you guys is to buy the mac w/ the minimum memory config, and then add the memory myself later. I am a computer professional (software engineer) and have absoloutely no qalms about cracking PC's apart to yank/swap components.
In fact one of my reservations about mac is that I can't do it myself. I have no qualms about spreading heat-sync paste, flashing BIOS'es, or updating drivers myself. Building my own PC's has always been a fine way for me to squeeze the most out of my budget. I still wonder if a mac is the right choice for me.
Although I am sold on a *nix based OS and ditching M$. If I could get linux to run p-shop (w/o the performance loss of an emulator) or run OSX on commodity hardware I probably wouldn't even look at a mac.
Looking into refurbished hardware is definitely an excellend recommendation. I will do this!
I'm less comfortable w/ used, for several reasons.
I've posed this question to folks on other forums I partcipate in, plus a few family members I know that are what I would call 'mac-heads'. I'm starting to think that maybe I'm just not asking the right questions (or don't have the right mindset). Let's try this:
Would a mac mini do me any good? If so, in what trim? Would a 1.42 GHz G4 mini loaded up to 1 GB of RAM be any good for p-shop work?
If not, how much more do I really need to spend? The imacs are less interesting because I already have a CRT monitor that I'm quite comfortable with. Investing in an imac strikes me as uninteresting because I don't really want to pay for the monitor or the compact-ness of the imac. (It is my understanding that the imac is largely based on a laptop design.) I find myself wishing that apple had more intermediatly priced desktops/towers available.
I guess what I'm asking is how low can I go; if you were a intermediate grade p-shop user working w/ high-resolution RAW's on a non-pro basis, what would you consider the minimum configuration you'd need in a mac to get the job done?
Thanks again..
I was under the impression that I could share files w/ PC's w/ ease now w/ OSX. While sharing file types may be an issue, I'm confident it is one I could work around.
I actually intend to put my old PC (and it's many hard-drives) out to pasture as a file-server. Gotta say, not pumped about that idea. I'm a hold-over CRT fan. Not psyched about LCD's.. although the apple brand LCD's are better than most. I could be converted. .. But I do love my CRT!
Not excited about becomming a used hardware dealer and selling my CRT either. I've never had any luck hawking used parts this way. I'm not even sure it's worth very much. (21" Sony flat CRT, I ferget the model number.)
But is the Intel mac even worth investing in at this point? I was under the impression that it would run photoshop w/ a performance penalty. I've heard not-so-great things about 'Rosetta'.. Am I mis-informed?
Do not buy the mini for your needs. Mebbe when they upgrade it to Intel, but not G4.
No G4s. Period.
G5s? Mebbe. I think Intel. Might be rough for a few months until Adobe release PS in Universal Binary, but still the best choice now, IMO.
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
Let's face it, you're a Windows man on a serious budget. So just put yourself out of your anguish - buy the best cost/performance Windows-compatible "little pile-o-parts" you can find and take comfort in being among the 90+% of computer users out there who are also living happily in the Windows world.
I'll stick with Macs, thanks all the same, but freely acknowledge others will make different choices and be very happy with them. There's no reason why you can't continue down the Windows track and be perfectly satisfied. Mac vs. Windows debates are just tedious.
Good luck with your decision!
As for the iMac, it finally has decent specs, but if you don't need the monitor then why bother.
Also you can get the same thing (processor, video) in a Windows laptop and have portability.
OSX is nice, but currently that's the only reason to have a Mac. Wait another year and you'll be able to run it on your "Windows" box" too
Gene
Dual 2GHz G5 PowerMac - 1:23
20" iMac Intel 2 GHz 'Core Duo' - 1:24
The salesman was suggesting that the p-shop performance on the 2 GHz Intel iMac would probably be comparable to the 20" G5 iMac on account of pshop running in emulation ('Rosetta') on the Intel machine. I don't think he was right. Either the emulation isn't as much of a performance hit as one would expect, or the Intel based Macs are just that much faster overall. (If that later is the case, I can't wait to see what happens when photoshop gets converted to a 'universal' binary!)
I neglected to test on a Mini. I actually might go back and try this out for myself just for the sake of being thorough.
I got home and ran the same tests on my PC's.
Intel PIII 800 MHz Dell laptop w/ 384MB RAM - 7:04
AMD Athlon 1400+ desktop w/ 1 GB RAM - 5:56
So in terms of Andy's test, either Mac absoloutely spanks my ~3 y/o desktop and ~6 y/o laptop. Not really shocking.
I liked the feel of both machines. Although the PowerMac was hooked up to one of Apple's cherry wide-screen LCD's, and that no doubt helped the 'experience'. Pshop still felt a little lethagic at times doing normal editing from some of the RAW's I brought w/ me. And of course this Windows user had a hard time w/ the keyboard shortcuts. I also kept in-advertantly hiding/closing/loosing windows. All typical newbie stuff.
In all I enjoyed using the machines and the OS. The salesman did his full court shpeal, touting features I have no or very little use for. And once or twice the programs he was demoing outright failed (something to do w/ the built in mini camera on the iMac for example). But overall it was a good experience.
For example, on this:
Using Photoshop CS or CS2 (or PS 7)
==================================================
1.) Download the test image from http://www.quicklance.com/test.jpg
2.) Save it to the computer and then open it up in Photoshop
3.) From there please apply a 'radial blur' with the settings at:
Amount = 100
Blur Method = Spin
Quality = Best
Using a stop watch / ps timer see how long it takes to apply this filter
I just want to see what these new cpu's can really do.
Please list your cpu details, amount of ram and the time it took for the test, just so we can get an idea of how the different cpu's handle this task.
* test adapted from a different forum *
These are the results I got:
iMac G5 1.8GHz, 1GB - 2:00
Athlon XP3200+, 1GB - 2:15
Athlon64 4000+, 1GB - 1:25
I tested with my dual 2.5 G5, and it took 41 seconds. I test with my "quad" 2.5 G5, and it takes 19 seconds. Any folks with PCs wanna test? I'm amazed that my machine would be > 4 TIMES faster in a blur filter than an Athlon 64 4000+.
Dell laptop P4/2.0GHz/512: 3:24 gotta get me one of those macs.... (regardless of the time thing)
www.ivarborst.nl & smugmug
I'm only a little bit surprised by those results as well. That seems to imply that the ICBMs really are faster than they should be. Emulating a ppc chip on an intell chip is a hugely expensive (performance wise) process, so the fact that they clock out pretty close speaks very very well for what a native intell binary PS will do.
Likely he was at least partially right. Emulation of ppc on intell is a huge hit. (ironically, the opposite isn't... emulating ia32 on ppc64 isn't a very big perf penalty.)
That I think is largely due to the lack of memory in the default systems. PS is a memory hog, OS/X is a memory hog, RAWs are memory hogs... you get the idea....
http://wall-art.smugmug.com/
Make sure you upgrade your memory in matched pairs on the Core Duo iMac.
Here's some benchmarks comparing the iMac core duo to the dual core PowerMac G5.
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
Basically this gives a lot of support to DavidTO's recommendation of getting an Intel based iMac. Running pshop in Rosetta doesn't seem to hurt as much as one might think.. or the Intel iMac is so much faster that it doesn't matter! My ancient (~6 y/o) laptop only has 384 MB of RAM. It was the ~3 y/o desktop that has 1GB.
But I see your point, and I hadn't considered it! Everything I used last night was running 512MB of RAM. I would upgrade that immediately. (Although I also have to factor that into the cost too!)
Ah ok, I missed that specific aspect to the comparison... was thinking dual 2ghz to dual 2ghz comparison as you showed with the times. Yeah in that case he was off the mark. A 20" G5 imac doesn't perform as well as a 2x 2ghz g5 powermac.
http://wall-art.smugmug.com/
I would imagine the new dual core Pentium at 3.2 would cut this time to about the same as the dual G5 and the dual core Athlons are even faster (or are supposed to be)
I'd be interested to see how fast a quad core Opteron would run it.
Gene
I got 1 minute 10 seconds with a 3ghz Pentium 4 (single core) with 1gb of ram, a system drive and a scratch drive. Windows XP pro service pack 2. Running mail, web, streaming audio.
"Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions." - fortune cookie
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
"Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions." - fortune cookie
Sure, you can get a quad core Opteron system, or an 8 core Opteron system.
How much money you got?
Seriously, I think a quad core Opteron for the same price as the G5 quad would out perform it in any measure.
Gene
And if it's two dual core processors, are there any motherboards that would run two dual core intel processors out there?
"Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions." - fortune cookie
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