Thanks to the judges for their time and effort, for going above and beyond to express and share their constructive critique, it is appreciated
KUDOS to all Winners and Non-Winners alike. As long as you continue to learn and grow your always a winner !! Remember ...Keep On Clicking :ivar
GOOOOOOOOODDDDD LUCKKKKKKKK EVERYONE !!!!!!!
Can't wait for the next round! See ya all there!!
You're only as good as your next photo....
One day, I started writing, not knowing that I had chained myself for life to a noble but merciless master. When God hands you a gift, he also hands you a whip; and the whip is intended solely for self-flagellation...I'm here alone in my dark madness, all by myself with my deck of cards --- and, of course, the whip God gave me." Truman Capote
24 - LiquidAir - Air Rocket
Great expression! A vertical crop keeping the left side and stopping at or before the ear looks very nice and is also complementary to the direction of travel of the projectile.
What, no 16:9 pano???? Awwwww....
I am conservative with my crops and I know it. I am gonna try to get in tight for LPS#8. Off with their heads!
Thanks for the feedback, Shay! Actually I liked the subtlety of #79. It made me stop and think, but the impact was lessened for me by the dark background.
Is there somewhere that explains crop ratios? At the risk of sounding like an idiot, I really don't understand them. When you give feedback like "a 10:4 pano crop would work better", it would be really nice to know what you meant.
I didn't enter this contest, but have enjoyed reading this thread, I hope to enter something some time, but I am here for learning right now, and the feedback for others is a great tool for me... Shay, great job on the reviews... Congrats to all who entered, and to the winners! There were a lot of really great photos, I can't imagine how hard it was to pick the winners for this round... tough job!
The following is my personal feedback on all the entries:
46 - NanaMo - Catching air!!!
Action away from the camera is tough to make compelling. The digital noise in the background helps to conceal, but a camera angle and direction change would have worked even better. If the scene were captured from the direction of the parked van, it would look more dynamic and we might have seen some emotion too if it were present.
Thank you Shay, for all the time and effort you put in to critiquing all the entries! I think we all realize what it takes for you to do this and I hope it means as much to you that we all value your opinion.
You are 100% dead on .....with my critique....they were having a ball and showed it!! But everytime I set up those rascals changed direction (and since we were on our way to a wedding and still had a 2 hour drive) I had to try to get the shot hoping I got something and continue on the journey.
63 - Xia_Ke - In Hindsight
Love the look. Doesn't hit me with emotion but it's a great photo.
Thanks for your critique Shay It's been very interesting to see the wide range of responses to this shot and what people read out of it. Thanks again for taking the time to write your critiques on everybody. Always a great learning experience
I am conservative with my crops and I know it. I am gonna try to get in tight for LPS#8. Off with their heads!
Thanks, Shay.
hehehe, the 10:4 pano is the painfully underutilized standard frame size that begs for attention but gets none, even square gets more action. I do suggest it a lot, but there are many situations where a pano crop is just the right choice to isolate the action or idea. Perhaps through constant exposure to the suggestion, the thought may percolate into some by the end of the contest
Creator of Dgrin's "Last Photographer Standing" contest
"Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions." - fortune cookie
Thanks for the feedback, Shay! Actually I liked the subtlety of #79. It made me stop and think, but the impact was lessened for me by the dark background.
Is there somewhere that explains crop ratios? At the risk of sounding like an idiot, I really don't understand them. When you give feedback like "a 10:4 pano crop would work better", it would be really nice to know what you meant.
Emily
I will work up a little post describing it today
Creator of Dgrin's "Last Photographer Standing" contest
"Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions." - fortune cookie
19 - DRabbit - Father & Son
Two thing here I notice, the face seems to be communicating pain more than an emotion, not knowing the youngster, and secondly, the look into the camera is pulling me out of sympathetic feeling too. If he were looking at his father, there might be more of an emotional connection with the photo, more interaction.
... I totally agree!
I didn't get a chance to go out looking for joy or sorrow, so I entered a father's day picture that loosely fit -- I didn't expect at all to qualify this time around.
And you're absolutely right... the kid was more fearful - and angry - than feeling sadness or sorrow. He was mid tempter tantrum. The photo actually cracks me up!
Thanks for your comments Shay!
Amy Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing which ones to keep. The Dang Gallery on DangRabbit - Follow me on Twitter or on Facebook Leica M8: Zeiss 35mm f/2 Biogon and 50mm f/2 Planar; Voigtlander 15mm f/4.5, 50mm f/1.5 Nokton and 75mm f/2.5 Heliar
Olympus E-P1: Zuiko 14-42 and 25mm f/2.8 Pancake; Panasonic 45-200mm and 20mm f/1.7; and M-to-m4/3 adaptor
Olympus e620: Zuiko 14-54 f/2.8-3.5
Thanks for taking the time to reply to everyone and post your thoughts on the entries.
I have been receiving votes for my entries (avg 10 for the last 3) just not enough to break into the semis.
It is frustrating I admit but I enjoy the challenge as well. I have seen my work improve in the last few months and will give this contest a little credit for that.
Thanks- for all you do
Aaron
"The Journey of life is as much in oneself as the roads one travels"
... Normally I judge if a photo meets the challenge, technicals and originality not whether it made me feel a certain way upon first seeing it. just MHO……..
Not here. Here they twist the rules as it suites them and call it 'real live situation'.
I must totally thank Shay for this, since he pretty much suggested to involve the viewer to invoke the emotion, not just try to capture it.
In my case the viewer is an all-important and key part of a triangle.
An adult male sitting on a bed, and a few pieces of attire do no do much on their own. Only the viewer's mind makes the link and thus completes the picture.
Funny thing: I posted the image on another forum with primarily non-US (and mostly european) audience. Almost nobody "got" it, and I mean - at all
Speaking of "the eye of the beholder"...
Well, I’m European and I got it. I thought it was well thought out. Even wrote an answer to your thread one night (along with 5 others), but pressed the wrong button and that was the end of my forum activity for that night
That's the sound of my frustration at not being able to clearly express the point I'm trying to make, which is clearly a fault on my part.
As much as I hate the phrase, we'll just have to 'agree to disagree,' without context, the image of a child crying will never emote sorrow to me, not in the way that I understand sorrow.
Charlie
I hear the points you are making loud and clear. I don’t think it has anything to do with you not being able to express yourself. I do think it is what you said before: “I sometimes think I speak a different version of English to many others.” You use the written language to read (listen) and write (speak, answer, argue), while the majority of people use language for monologues.
May I join your Aaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!! !!
Well,.. I have to finally thank Shay for putting this contest on... certainly provides a structured and fun way to develop our own viewpoint and style. Thanks also to the judges, all of whom could have declined to go through the hassle!
Although your arguments drive me absolutely up the wall
Hmm, sounds like some new fangled exercise machine...cool
I do apreciate your detailed feedback.
Thank you
Introducing the new 2 in 1 exercise/feedbackalizer machine. It chops, it mops, it crops. All for the low low price of submitting a photo. Get your's today!!! It's guaranteed to get the job done*
*Guarantee not guaranteed. Certain jobs may in fact not get done. Satisfaction not guaranteed either.
Creator of Dgrin's "Last Photographer Standing" contest
"Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions." - fortune cookie
Perhaps Shay should modify it to read,'trust your gut, ignore the themes'
BTW, I just noticed that I came in 11th place, so can I add a further 'arrrrggghhhh'
Charlie
Personally, I've read just about every post that Shay has said on this matter (have you?), and I take his themes to be an artistic direction, to help us hone our efforts, in practice for the "no theme" finals. It's all about taking great photographs. Always was. If a loose interpretation of a theme yields a fantastic photograph, that's just fine by me. This contest is about great photography, not semantics!!!!!!!
Well,.. I have to finally thank Shay for putting this contest on... certainly provides a structured and fun way to develop our own viewpoint and style. Thanks also to the judges, all of whom could have declined to go through the hassle!
e g z a c t l y !
back that up. zugabe.
The best thing about a photo is the journey that brought you to it.
Perhaps Shay should modify it to read,'trust your gut, ignore the themes'
I would like to actually. More freedom is better than less when it comes to art. However, for the qualifying rounds that are open to all, having a completely free theme tends to be too hard for many people to deal with. So some structure is added into the qualifying rounds by having a dual theme within which to work.
The simifinalists get to experience the ultimate theme freedom when they decide their own theme to shoot under. And you can probably ask any of them whether that was easier or harder. Many will probably say harder. And that is good. Having a supplied theme that is too tightly focused makes the photographers creative job easier because they don't have to think as hard or be as creative.
So a more loosely defined dual theme, I hope, provides just enough challenge for even newcomers to start to flex their creativity muscles. Over the course of five qualifying rounds, they will have had to flex that muscle many times and strengthen it. The occasional need to decide for themselves what to shoot in the semifinal puts that trained muscle to use and also serve to strengthen it under actual working conditions.
At the end of the contest I hope there are many people who have been able to train themselves to become more creative and better able to self start and finish a photography project of their choosing. And the key to that training, I believe, starts with the dual theme and interpretation of it by the contestants and the judges.
The ability to effectively interpret is important even in the business end of photography. A client may have one idea in their head about what they want, but describe it in non specific terms. Your job then becomes, if no further clarification is possible, to turn that into a tangible image that will satisfy and even excite the client.
The judges are not given any specific rules for the judging because just like in business, each client will judge your work differently and I want that variability in the contest. Being able to cope with that ever-changing zone of approval is vital. And the one who can learn to do it best will be the one who walks away the winner of the Last Photographer Standing Contest
Creator of Dgrin's "Last Photographer Standing" contest
"Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions." - fortune cookie
Personally, I've read just about every post that Shay has said on this matter (have you?), and I take his themes to be an artistic direction, to help us hone our efforts, in practice for the "no theme" finals. It's all about taking great photographs. Always was. If a loose interpretation of a theme yields a fantastic photograph, that's just fine by me. This contest is about great photography, not semantics!!!!!!!
I'm not going to get into a competition with you as to how many of Shay's posts I've read, good for you. I decided to let your thinly veiled accusations that I'd copied someone else's entry in an earlier round go, maybe you should accept my opinion and let it go.
I honestly don't think this is a way to talk to a lady in general, and here on Dgrin in particular.
Yes, sorry about that, I've edited my post, it was a phrase Andy introduced me to a few months ago, I can't think of a comparable English example.
Also, I'm not bothered anymore as I've just realised that regardless of the rules I'm not a good enough photographer to progress in this competition anyway and that's fine. I'd be a little concerned if I'd been at it seriously for more than a year but looking back on my early images and those I'm taking now I can see definite progress.
Maybe in another couple of years I'll be good enough to get somewhere in such a competition.
It's funny, when I first realized I didn't win - again - I started thinking "what's wrong with me that I can't win? What's wrong with the contest that photos are chosen that don't hit the them as well as I feel mine does? Why is this contest so HARD for me emotionally? What's wrong with my photography?" (I also had several other things that were adding to these feelings....)
But then I realized that I just need to be true to myself. If my photos are good enough and hit the theme right, then so be it. But if they aren't, that doesn't mean they are bad. (Well, they might be, but they may also NOT be.) Instead of running around pleasing others, I need to be pleasing myself. Figuring out what, way deep down inside, makes me happy and makes the photo a "good" photo regardless of how well it does in a contest. Doing this, I believe, is going to make me a better photographer - not trying to figure out how it's judged, trying to get something changed in the rules....
So while it's frustrated to feel like you've nailed it and it doesn't get picked... Or you choose the top 10 and you're completely wrong.... The questions at the end of the day are how has your photography improved? How has your vision of the world through photography changed? If neither has changed, then maybe it's time to step back, stay away and come back again later with a more positive outlook. You know, do it for fun....
Sure, I realize that this is for some amazing prizes, but you could win every round and still come up empty handed if you dont' find the prize from within. And my guess is... if you're finding that prize within, you're going to be more likely to win the prize for real....
Anyway, my 2¢.
Good luck to all in the new round! I may or may not be there... we'll see what happens! !
I had this come in my email notifications a couple of days ago, but can’t find it anywhere in the thread.
Just wondering who this was aimed at?
urbanaries has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - LPS#7 Feedback Thread - in the Contests & Challenges forum of Digital Grin Photography Forum.
This thread is located at: http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=64883&goto=newpost
Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************
I think you're taking a lot of liberties here, thinking that since you don't agree or particularly understand a judges' interpretation of the theme, that a judge IGNORED the theme. Its quite impossible for you to judge someone's artistic perception of a word or feeling. Add to that fact that we have an international audience, with many variations and connotations of the English word...what is your deal??? If its so frustrating to you then I'm sure there are other contests that you can sleep at night knowing that many complicated rules and regulations are followed, but guess what, the contests are no easier to win.
So while it's frustrated to feel like you've nailed it and it doesn't get picked... Or you choose the top 10 and you're completely wrong.... The questions at the end of the day are how has your photography improved? How has your vision of the world through photography changed? If neither has changed, then maybe it's time to step back, stay away and come back again later with a more positive outlook. You know, do it for fun....
Sure, I realize that this is for some amazing prizes, but you could win every round and still come up empty handed if you dont' find the prize from within. And my guess is... if you're finding that prize within, you're going to be more likely to win the prize for real....
Anyway, my 2¢.
Good luck to all in the new round! I may or may not be there... we'll see what happens! !
You make some good points, and I shall definitely be stepping away, not only because I don't agree with the latitude given to images unrelated to the theme, purely because they're great photographs, but because I'm not taking great photographs yet.
Any contest that is subjective is bound to create controversy, after all, we have a saying in England, 'there's nowt stranger than folk' and trying to second guess how a myriad of different people from different cultures, backgrounds and countries with different educational standards, emotional baggage and outlooks on life react emotionally to any given image is frankly impossible.
You can give guidelines, or themes for entrants to adhere to, but then inexperienced judges may be blown away by a superb image and ignore the fact that its relation to the theme is at best tenuous. There seems to be an unwritten rule with LPS that the better the image the less important its link to the theme is.
The other peculiar aspect is that I agree almost 100% with Shay's judging but a much lower ratio with most of the guest judges, it doesn't mean that they're right or wrong of course but I do think Shay pays more attention to the themes than some other judges have. There's also the 'emperor's new clothes' concept which may or may not be a factor in the judging and we've also seen as with many other aspects of creativity, the viewer reading things into an image that the photographer never intended nor sees themselves.
I've no doubt that despite any flaws that may or may not be present in the competition, the cream will rise to the top, we're definitely already seeing this and I shall continue to follow the competiton as some of the images being produced are just breathtaking.
Comments
KUDOS to all Winners and Non-Winners alike. As long as you continue to learn and grow your always a winner !! Remember ...Keep On Clicking :ivar
GOOOOOOOOODDDDD LUCKKKKKKKK EVERYONE !!!!!!!
Can't wait for the next round! See ya all there!!
What, no 16:9 pano???? Awwwww....
I am conservative with my crops and I know it. I am gonna try to get in tight for LPS#8. Off with their heads!
Thanks, Shay.
Is there somewhere that explains crop ratios? At the risk of sounding like an idiot, I really don't understand them. When you give feedback like "a 10:4 pano crop would work better", it would be really nice to know what you meant.
Emily
Thank you Shay, for all the time and effort you put in to critiquing all the entries! I think we all realize what it takes for you to do this and I hope it means as much to you that we all value your opinion.
You are 100% dead on .....with my critique....they were having a ball and showed it!! But everytime I set up those rascals changed direction (and since we were on our way to a wedding and still had a 2 hour drive) I had to try to get the shot hoping I got something and continue on the journey.
Maureen
Thanks for your critique Shay
My Gallery
"Challenge yourself! You will have days of discouragement and days of success, but the only way to fail, is to quit!" - Emily (Greensquared)
hehehe, the 10:4 pano is the painfully underutilized standard frame size that begs for attention but gets none, even square gets more action. I do suggest it a lot, but there are many situations where a pano crop is just the right choice to isolate the action or idea. Perhaps through constant exposure to the suggestion, the thought may percolate into some by the end of the contest
"Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions." - fortune cookie
I will work up a little post describing it today
"Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions." - fortune cookie
photographing mommy to Rayne (5) and Quinlan (baby boy) and wife to Dave.:photo
I didn't get a chance to go out looking for joy or sorrow, so I entered a father's day picture that loosely fit
And you're absolutely right... the kid was more fearful - and angry - than feeling sadness or sorrow. He was mid tempter tantrum. The photo actually cracks me up!
Thanks for your comments Shay!
Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing which ones to keep.
The Dang Gallery on DangRabbit - Follow me on Twitter or on Facebook
Leica M8: Zeiss 35mm f/2 Biogon and 50mm f/2 Planar; Voigtlander 15mm f/4.5, 50mm f/1.5 Nokton and 75mm f/2.5 Heliar
Olympus E-P1: Zuiko 14-42 and 25mm f/2.8 Pancake; Panasonic 45-200mm and 20mm f/1.7; and M-to-m4/3 adaptor
Olympus e620: Zuiko 14-54 f/2.8-3.5
Thanks for taking the time to reply to everyone and post your thoughts on the entries.
I have been receiving votes for my entries (avg 10 for the last 3) just not enough to break into the semis.
It is frustrating I admit but I enjoy the challenge as well. I have seen my work improve in the last few months and will give this contest a little credit for that.
Thanks- for all you do
Aaron
Aaron Newman
Website:www.CapturingLightandEmotion.com
Facebook: Capturing Light and Emotion
Not here. Here they twist the rules as it suites them and call it 'real live situation'.
Well, I’m European and I got it. I thought it was well thought out.
Even wrote an answer to your thread one night (along with 5 others), but pressed the wrong button and that was the end of my forum activity for that night
I hear the points you are making loud and clear. I don’t think it has anything to do with you not being able to express yourself. I do think it is what you said before: “I sometimes think I speak a different version of English to many others.” You use the written language to read (listen) and write (speak, answer, argue), while the majority of people use language for monologues.
May I join your Aaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!! !!
Although your arguments drive me absolutely up the wall, I do apreciate your detailed feedback.
who's rules are we talking about? Let's not forget this is Shay's contest, and his only instructions are to judges, "trust your gut."
Look it up, it's been this way since LPS #1. I didn't like it myself at first, but thems the breaks.
50mm 1.4, 85mm 1.8, 24-70 2.8L, 35mm 1.4L, 135mm f2L
ST-E2 Transmitter + (3) 580 EXII + radio poppers
www.HoofClix.com / Personal Facebook / Facebook Page
and I do believe its true.. that there are roads left in both of our shoes..
Thank you
Introducing the new 2 in 1 exercise/feedbackalizer machine. It chops, it mops, it crops. All for the low low price of submitting a photo. Get your's today!!! It's guaranteed to get the job done*
*Guarantee not guaranteed. Certain jobs may in fact not get done. Satisfaction not guaranteed either.
"Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions." - fortune cookie
Perhaps Shay should modify it to read,'trust your gut, ignore the themes'
BTW, I just noticed that I came in 11th place, so can I add a further 'arrrrggghhhh'
Charlie
Personally, I've read just about every post that Shay has said on this matter (have you?), and I take his themes to be an artistic direction, to help us hone our efforts, in practice for the "no theme" finals. It's all about taking great photographs. Always was. If a loose interpretation of a theme yields a fantastic photograph, that's just fine by me. This contest is about great photography, not semantics!!!!!!!
50mm 1.4, 85mm 1.8, 24-70 2.8L, 35mm 1.4L, 135mm f2L
ST-E2 Transmitter + (3) 580 EXII + radio poppers
e g z a c t l y !
back that up. zugabe.
I would like to actually. More freedom is better than less when it comes to art. However, for the qualifying rounds that are open to all, having a completely free theme tends to be too hard for many people to deal with. So some structure is added into the qualifying rounds by having a dual theme within which to work.
The simifinalists get to experience the ultimate theme freedom when they decide their own theme to shoot under. And you can probably ask any of them whether that was easier or harder. Many will probably say harder. And that is good. Having a supplied theme that is too tightly focused makes the photographers creative job easier because they don't have to think as hard or be as creative.
So a more loosely defined dual theme, I hope, provides just enough challenge for even newcomers to start to flex their creativity muscles. Over the course of five qualifying rounds, they will have had to flex that muscle many times and strengthen it. The occasional need to decide for themselves what to shoot in the semifinal puts that trained muscle to use and also serve to strengthen it under actual working conditions.
At the end of the contest I hope there are many people who have been able to train themselves to become more creative and better able to self start and finish a photography project of their choosing. And the key to that training, I believe, starts with the dual theme and interpretation of it by the contestants and the judges.
The ability to effectively interpret is important even in the business end of photography. A client may have one idea in their head about what they want, but describe it in non specific terms. Your job then becomes, if no further clarification is possible, to turn that into a tangible image that will satisfy and even excite the client.
The judges are not given any specific rules for the judging because just like in business, each client will judge your work differently and I want that variability in the contest. Being able to cope with that ever-changing zone of approval is vital. And the one who can learn to do it best will be the one who walks away the winner of the Last Photographer Standing Contest
"Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions." - fortune cookie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyF-DsVCJOE
I'm not going to get into a competition with you as to how many of Shay's posts I've read, good for you. I decided to let your thinly veiled accusations that I'd copied someone else's entry in an earlier round go, maybe you should accept my opinion and let it go.
Charlie
I honestly don't think this is a way to talk to a lady in general, and here on Dgrin in particular.
Yes, sorry about that, I've edited my post, it was a phrase Andy introduced me to a few months ago, I can't think of a comparable English example.
Also, I'm not bothered anymore as I've just realised that regardless of the rules I'm not a good enough photographer to progress in this competition anyway and that's fine. I'd be a little concerned if I'd been at it seriously for more than a year but looking back on my early images and those I'm taking now I can see definite progress.
Maybe in another couple of years I'll be good enough to get somewhere in such a competition.
Charlie
But then I realized that I just need to be true to myself. If my photos are good enough and hit the theme right, then so be it. But if they aren't, that doesn't mean they are bad. (Well, they might be, but they may also NOT be.) Instead of running around pleasing others, I need to be pleasing myself. Figuring out what, way deep down inside, makes me happy and makes the photo a "good" photo regardless of how well it does in a contest. Doing this, I believe, is going to make me a better photographer - not trying to figure out how it's judged, trying to get something changed in the rules....
So while it's frustrated to feel like you've nailed it and it doesn't get picked... Or you choose the top 10 and you're completely wrong.... The questions at the end of the day are how has your photography improved? How has your vision of the world through photography changed? If neither has changed, then maybe it's time to step back, stay away and come back again later with a more positive outlook. You know, do it for fun....
Sure, I realize that this is for some amazing prizes, but you could win every round and still come up empty handed if you dont' find the prize from within. And my guess is... if you're finding that prize within, you're going to be more likely to win the prize for real....
Anyway, my 2¢.
Good luck to all in the new round! I may or may not be there... we'll see what happens!
www.tippiepics.com
Just wondering who this was aimed at?
You make some good points, and I shall definitely be stepping away, not only because I don't agree with the latitude given to images unrelated to the theme, purely because they're great photographs, but because I'm not taking great photographs yet.
Any contest that is subjective is bound to create controversy, after all, we have a saying in England, 'there's nowt stranger than folk' and trying to second guess how a myriad of different people from different cultures, backgrounds and countries with different educational standards, emotional baggage and outlooks on life react emotionally to any given image is frankly impossible.
You can give guidelines, or themes for entrants to adhere to, but then inexperienced judges may be blown away by a superb image and ignore the fact that its relation to the theme is at best tenuous. There seems to be an unwritten rule with LPS that the better the image the less important its link to the theme is.
The other peculiar aspect is that I agree almost 100% with Shay's judging but a much lower ratio with most of the guest judges, it doesn't mean that they're right or wrong of course but I do think Shay pays more attention to the themes than some other judges have. There's also the 'emperor's new clothes' concept which may or may not be a factor in the judging and we've also seen as with many other aspects of creativity, the viewer reading things into an image that the photographer never intended nor sees themselves.
I've no doubt that despite any flaws that may or may not be present in the competition, the cream will rise to the top, we're definitely already seeing this and I shall continue to follow the competiton as some of the images being produced are just breathtaking.
Charlie
I'm guessing it was aimed at me Robert.
Charlie