I too switched all my galleries over to Bay photo since they offered all the same print sizes as EZ prints plus the added watercolor print options. Without the cost of the Adjustments, the pricing between the two companies is almost identical....so I was wondering if the adjustments would be worth it....so.....
I order some test prints from both companies and will post my finding here once I receive all the prints as I am sure many others are wondering the same.
What I ordered:
I used 4 identical prints - 2 action sports images and 2 portrait images.
I ordered a set of Luster prints (4 total) and a set of Metallic prints (4 total) - a set of each without adjustments and a set of prints with adjustments - I did this for EZ Prints and Bay Photo.
I'm hoping I have my Bat Photo prints tomorrow and will followup with my findings.
Michael
Received my EZ Prints on Friday (Monday was a Holiday), received my Bay Photo prints today (Wednesday).
What I ordered:
I used 4 identical prints (all 4x6's) - 2 action sports images and 2 portrait images.
I ordered a set of Luster prints (4 total) and a set of Metallic prints (4 total) - a set of each without adjustments and a set of prints with adjustments - I did this for EZ Prints and Bay Photo.
I sat down with my wife today to see which ones she liked best (without telling her which were which). Long story short, she liked some from each batch - pretty much in equal numbers. So........there was no clear winner.
Now the longer story. I shoot mainly sports. I am working on a calibrated monitor. I shoot Nikon RAW and use Lightroom for most of my PP work and CS3 for some more detailed PP work. CS3 I have the EZ Prints soft proof profile set.
Looking over the prints from both companies - comparing the adjusted and not adjusted was really like splitting hairs. At quick glance they are almost exactly the same. You really need to look deep to find any differences, but they are there. Compairing EZ Prints to Bay Photo again was like splitting hairs - but there were some differences. The difficult part was there were no certain images that were better processed at Bay or EZ - or type of paper used.
Tow stand out things that I did notice:
EZ Prints using their auto adjustment, the pictures were slightly warmer than they should be....but only slightly. Some of the colors ended up having a slight warmer, maybe yellowish cast in them. The average viewer would probably not even notice.
Bay Photo adjustments on a few pictures had the images a tad bit darker than they really should be.
In the end it's really a flip of the coin (again only looking at 4x6 test images). One should really print some 8x10's for a better comparison.
So for me, since I will 99.9% of the time not be using any corrections from the printer - the pricing between the two printers are almost exactly the same as well as the basic paper types and sizes are almost the same..... Logic would tell me to stick with EZ Prints for the slightly faster shipping (East Coast), but I am hoping to get more into portrait work and like that Bay Photo has different paper options that may come in handy. Also it sould like more features are in the works for Bay....
I have a couple of thoughts and questions:
1.) I ordered a metallic print 8x10" of a recent studio-lit image I took of my daughter in a yellow dress against an old wood background. It was simply stunning, so I wanted to pass along some serious gratitude for this option
2.) Would SmugMug consider (and I know this is a long shot) sharing average prices that pro prints are set to as a guideline to the community? I don't know if this is a moderately good idea or a dreadfully horrid idea. Flaming welcomed.
3.) As the owner, I'd love the option of selecting any print to go to the lab of my choice, even if I don't extend that option to my customers. Is that possible (or perhaps even already available and I'm missing it)?
4.) All said and done, Bravo SmugMug. Bravo.
Oh, I forgot the main reason I wanted to write in the first place. With Bay Photo being human powered color correction, how do they know where to draw the line between what should and what should not be color corrected. It seems obvious to me that they will not adjust B&W, Sepia, etc... but how do we control correction on images that we, as the photographer, want to control. For example, if I have a 500 image wedding shoot, I may have 10% B&W / Sepia (ignore color correction) and the remaining 90% would be color. What if I intentionally desaturated an image or two for effect, or bumped vibrance or a color channel or temperature way off to achieve an effect? How do I communicate to Bay (or EZ) "hey, don't adjust this?"
I have a couple of thoughts and questions:
1.) I ordered a metallic print 8x10" of a recent studio-lit image I took of my daughter in a yellow dress against an old wood background. It was simply stunning
2.) Would SmugMug consider (and I know this is a long shot) sharing average prices that pro prints are set to as a guideline to the community? I don't know if this is a moderately good idea or a dreadfully horrid idea. Flaming welcomed.
I can understand why you'd ask the question, but the answer is truly that an "average" would be meaningless. I touch a lot of print orders every day and just today saw 4x6s selling for less than 50 cents on one site and for $30 from another site. Some pros charge a separate sitting fee, others make all their money from prints. Some pros go for high volume sales, others shoot to sell just a print or two. Some pros have captive audiences because they did portraits... others are trying to attract customers from Internet searches or browsing popular photos. Some pros fix up the images beforehand (with text, or borders, or make collages), others sell "as-is" and some even tell customers the prints are cheap because the lighting wasn't great.
We really see it all. You'll probably see more discussion on the Mind Your Own Business forum on dgrin, but I wanted to give you this SmugMug employee's perspective.
3.) As the owner, I'd love the option of selecting any print to go to the lab of my choice, even if I don't extend that option to my customers. Is that possible (or perhaps even already available and I'm missing it)?
You can do that BEFORE you order, but not in the shopping cart. You choose in the pricing tool and you choose based on image/gallery/portfolio not based on print size or finish. In other words, you can't sell a 4x6 print of one image through EZP and the same image with an 8x10 going to Bay Photo. Unless the image was in two different galleries of course, but then it technically wouldn't be the same image. Hehe. Clear as mud?
This is actually much cleaner, because you'll run into fewer times where your shopping cart charges double shipping due to a mixed order with both labs represented.
I can understand why you'd ask the question, but the answer is truly that an "average" would be meaningless. I touch a lot of print orders every day and just today saw 4x6s selling for less than 50 cents on one site and for $30 from another site. Some pros charge a separate sitting fee, others make all their money from prints. Some pros go for high volume sales, others shoot to sell just a print or two. Some pros have captive audiences because they did portraits... others are trying to attract customers from Internet searches or browsing popular photos. Some pros fix up the images beforehand (with text, or borders, or make collages), others sell "as-is" and some even tell customers the prints are cheap because the lighting wasn't great.
We really see it all. You'll probably see more discussion on the Mind Your Own Business forum on dgrin, but I wanted to give you this SmugMug employee's perspective.
You can do that BEFORE you order, but not in the shopping cart. You choose in the pricing tool and you choose based on image/gallery/portfolio not based on print size or finish. In other words, you can't sell a 4x6 print of one image through EZP and the same image with an 8x10 going to Bay Photo. Unless the image was in two different galleries of course, but then it technically wouldn't be the same image. Hehe. Clear as mud?
This is actually much cleaner, because you'll run into fewer times where your shopping cart charges double shipping due to a mixed order with both labs represented.
-Anne
That makes sense too... sounds like a "reasonable" workaround (if I want print my customer prints from EZ and an occasional "personal" print from Bay) is to make a personal hidden gallery (maybe called "Bay Prints") and make a copy of images that I want to print there in that gallery. Yes?
With that resolved (I think), I'm wondering if you also saw my last question, which was added as an edit. My guess is you started your reply before I completed my edit, so you never saw it. I'm sure you've heard many times that SmugMug's customer service is too fast, right?
How do I communicate to Bay (or EZ) "hey, don't adjust this?"
You don't. Bay has the experience of zillions of hand-color corrections. They apply it where needed, don't when it's not - and we guarantee the results. Let our experience carry through.
Color correction at EZP is via our automated software and is all-or-none.
Received my EZ Prints on Friday (Monday was a Holiday), received my Bay Photo prints today (Wednesday).
Michael
Thank you for this post. It confirms what I thought. I work on a color calibrated monitor, with auto color off from EZprints I've never had a problem, prints are basically WYSIWYG. I order ALL of my proofs for wedding clients from smugmug because of the back printing options available and as an example of the quality they will get from repeat orders. I love some of the services offered by Bay, with the wraps and the giclee but for basic prints I can't imagine that there are ANY (wedding) pros who are not yet working on a calibrated monitor or are throwing their stuff up on smugmug without correction. I can see the value in this for event and sports photography and I would pay 4 cents more/4x6 for better prints (paper quality/finish) from Bay with the correction off but not if the results are indistinguishable from EZ with the correction off. Thanks for doing this comparision, and thanks smugmug for offering this choice of service.
I can't imagine that there are ANY (wedding) pros who are not yet working on a calibrated monitor or are throwing their stuff up on smugmug without correction
It's actually most pros that do this. Most all the active, full time, professional wedding folks we've talked to over the last six months want nearly ZERO to do with post processing and so will maybe do a quick batch edit for exposure (if that) but otherwise, will leave it all up to the lab (Bay in this case). There are lots of pros that want to outsourse all the PP as well, and there are companies like shoot dot edit out there that do just that
You don't. Bay has the experience of zillions of hand-color corrections. They apply it where needed, don't when it's not - and we guarantee the results. Let our experience carry through.
Color correction at EZP is via our automated software and is all-or-none.
Cool beans, and I can't wait to try them out! Thanks Andy!
It's actually most pros that do this. Most all the active, full time, professional wedding folks we've talked to over the last six months want nearly ZERO to do with post processing and so will maybe do a quick batch edit for exposure (if that) but otherwise, will leave it all up to the lab (Bay in this case). There are lots of pros that want to outsourse all the PP as well, and there are companies like shoot dot edit out there that do just that
I know a lot of Dgrinner and Smuggers did not work with photos in the film age......but havingcome from the film age I can tell you that having some of the stress lifted off you by having competent and reliable processors to work with is a real joy........
I can't imagine that there are ANY (wedding) pros who are not yet working on a calibrated monitor or are throwing their stuff up on smugmug without correction.
I wish that were true but over a year ago I was looking at wedding photographers in Austin and I can tell you from looking at many web galleries that way too many do not appear to know how to correct a white balance issue. Course, those are the cheap ones, and calling some of them "pros" might be a stretch...
For power users who'd love to order from Bay, here are a few issues we're working through:
- We promised Bay Photo that we would ease into this, volume-wise, so we could figure out capacity issues and kinks first. We asked some big favors of them, like allowing mixed-finish orders, which pro labs don't usually like, and which changes their logistics.
- We have to convince them that the orders we'd receive from power users would be the kinds of orders pro labs receive, not consumer orders.
- Wedding pros in particular put a lot of pressure on pro labs like Bay Photo and whcc to offer products and quality that brides can't find at the available-to-all labs like Snapfish, Mpix, etc., so Bay Photo has to remain true to that brand promise.
It's my belief that the prints our power users order are mostly high-end fine art/landscape/wildlife, which would fit Bay's business well. But I have to make sure of that and make sure we've worked through the volume issues first. We don't even mention that we offer Bay to prospective customers yet, despite the draw it would be.
I hope this helps. I know if I were a power user and shooting great landscapes, I wouldn't be very happy about being excluded, so I think I understand the pain.
Mounted Prints
When I go to the Bay Photos site, I see that they offer mounted prints.
From scanning the twenty or so pages of this thread, I believe the answer to my question (can I order mounted prints via smugmug/bay?), is: sometime in the future we will offer this, but not now.
Is this a correct assessment?
And, one more question - is there a single page that communicates to pro account users the current bay offerings that are available to us? I'd much rather go to a single, update centralized resource page, instead of searching through a forum crossing my fingers that my search results include the right information. While the forum format is useful for certain purposes - it's frustrating for pros who are simply looking for the data and would like to find a nicely published list that can be used as a quick reference (perhaps this is out there somewhere and I'm just not aware of it?)
When I go to the Bay Photos site, I see that they offer mounted prints.
From scanning the twenty or so pages of this thread, I believe the answer to my question (can I order mounted prints via smugmug/bay?), is: sometime in the future we will offer this, but not now.
Is this a correct assessment?
Yup. But we'll have them!
And, one more question - is there a single page that communicates to pro account users the current bay offerings that are available to us? I'd much rather go to a single, update centralized resource page, instead of searching through a forum crossing my fingers that my search results include the right information. While the forum format is useful for certain purposes - it's frustrating for pros who are simply looking for the data and would like to find a nicely published list that can be used as a quick reference (perhaps this is out there somewhere and I'm just not aware of it?)
I am in the process of evaluating SmugMug. Do you have a rough time frame for Bay Photo mounted prints being added to SmugMug? days, weeks, months or years? Currently, I always have 8x10 prints and larger mounted on artboard for improved durability.
I am in the process of evaluating SmugMug. Do you have a rough time frame for Bay Photo mounted prints being added to SmugMug? days, weeks, months or years? Currently, I always have 8x10 prints and larger mounted on artboard for improved durability.
Hi, we really don't comment on timeframes, I'm sorry - it's a planned addition.
If you guys haven't tried a black and white metallic from Bay Photo yet, it's sooo good! They did a 16x20 for me recently as part of a promotion during California's West Coast School of my logo beast, and it is totally yummy, with a perfect range of tones. I also like the odd sizes they have available, like the weird panoramic ones, was it 10x4? When my customers saw that print they started ordering metallics.
I'm willing to be patient for sub-galleries, coupons, x-mas cards selectable by clients, and brides able to mark favs, if you don't change to morephotos pricing. Thanks for balancing effort for us and cost to us!
Comments
We'll be offering standouts, and more - stay tuned, JCC, thanks!
Portfolio • Workshops • Facebook • Twitter
Received my EZ Prints on Friday (Monday was a Holiday), received my Bay Photo prints today (Wednesday).
What I ordered:
I used 4 identical prints (all 4x6's) - 2 action sports images and 2 portrait images.
I ordered a set of Luster prints (4 total) and a set of Metallic prints (4 total) - a set of each without adjustments and a set of prints with adjustments - I did this for EZ Prints and Bay Photo.
I sat down with my wife today to see which ones she liked best (without telling her which were which). Long story short, she liked some from each batch - pretty much in equal numbers. So........there was no clear winner.
Now the longer story. I shoot mainly sports. I am working on a calibrated monitor. I shoot Nikon RAW and use Lightroom for most of my PP work and CS3 for some more detailed PP work. CS3 I have the EZ Prints soft proof profile set.
Looking over the prints from both companies - comparing the adjusted and not adjusted was really like splitting hairs. At quick glance they are almost exactly the same. You really need to look deep to find any differences, but they are there. Compairing EZ Prints to Bay Photo again was like splitting hairs - but there were some differences. The difficult part was there were no certain images that were better processed at Bay or EZ - or type of paper used.
Tow stand out things that I did notice:
EZ Prints using their auto adjustment, the pictures were slightly warmer than they should be....but only slightly. Some of the colors ended up having a slight warmer, maybe yellowish cast in them. The average viewer would probably not even notice.
Bay Photo adjustments on a few pictures had the images a tad bit darker than they really should be.
In the end it's really a flip of the coin (again only looking at 4x6 test images). One should really print some 8x10's for a better comparison.
So for me, since I will 99.9% of the time not be using any corrections from the printer - the pricing between the two printers are almost exactly the same as well as the basic paper types and sizes are almost the same..... Logic would tell me to stick with EZ Prints for the slightly faster shipping (East Coast), but I am hoping to get more into portrait work and like that Bay Photo has different paper options that may come in handy. Also it sould like more features are in the works for Bay....
Michael
http://www.behance.net/brosepix
1.) I ordered a metallic print 8x10" of a recent studio-lit image I took of my daughter in a yellow dress against an old wood background. It was simply stunning, so I wanted to pass along some serious gratitude for this option
2.) Would SmugMug consider (and I know this is a long shot) sharing average prices that pro prints are set to as a guideline to the community? I don't know if this is a moderately good idea or a dreadfully horrid idea. Flaming welcomed.
3.) As the owner, I'd love the option of selecting any print to go to the lab of my choice, even if I don't extend that option to my customers. Is that possible (or perhaps even already available and I'm missing it)?
4.) All said and done, Bravo SmugMug. Bravo.
Oh, I forgot the main reason I wanted to write in the first place. With Bay Photo being human powered color correction, how do they know where to draw the line between what should and what should not be color corrected. It seems obvious to me that they will not adjust B&W, Sepia, etc... but how do we control correction on images that we, as the photographer, want to control. For example, if I have a 500 image wedding shoot, I may have 10% B&W / Sepia (ignore color correction) and the remaining 90% would be color. What if I intentionally desaturated an image or two for effect, or bumped vibrance or a color channel or temperature way off to achieve an effect? How do I communicate to Bay (or EZ) "hey, don't adjust this?"
Stephen Skoutas
http://stephenskoutas.com
sskoutas@gmail.com Certe, toto, sentio nos in kansate non iam adesse
Please feel free to retouch and repost my images. Critique, Suggestions, and Technique tips always welcomed.
I can understand why you'd ask the question, but the answer is truly that an "average" would be meaningless. I touch a lot of print orders every day and just today saw 4x6s selling for less than 50 cents on one site and for $30 from another site. Some pros charge a separate sitting fee, others make all their money from prints. Some pros go for high volume sales, others shoot to sell just a print or two. Some pros have captive audiences because they did portraits... others are trying to attract customers from Internet searches or browsing popular photos. Some pros fix up the images beforehand (with text, or borders, or make collages), others sell "as-is" and some even tell customers the prints are cheap because the lighting wasn't great.
We really see it all. You'll probably see more discussion on the Mind Your Own Business forum on dgrin, but I wanted to give you this SmugMug employee's perspective.
You can do that BEFORE you order, but not in the shopping cart. You choose in the pricing tool and you choose based on image/gallery/portfolio not based on print size or finish. In other words, you can't sell a 4x6 print of one image through EZP and the same image with an 8x10 going to Bay Photo. Unless the image was in two different galleries of course, but then it technically wouldn't be the same image. Hehe. Clear as mud?
This is actually much cleaner, because you'll run into fewer times where your shopping cart charges double shipping due to a mixed order with both labs represented.
-Anne
Thank you kindly... it all makes sense.
That makes sense too... sounds like a "reasonable" workaround (if I want print my customer prints from EZ and an occasional "personal" print from Bay) is to make a personal hidden gallery (maybe called "Bay Prints") and make a copy of images that I want to print there in that gallery. Yes?
With that resolved (I think), I'm wondering if you also saw my last question, which was added as an edit. My guess is you started your reply before I completed my edit, so you never saw it. I'm sure you've heard many times that SmugMug's customer service is too fast, right?
Stephen Skoutas
http://stephenskoutas.com
sskoutas@gmail.com Certe, toto, sentio nos in kansate non iam adesse
Please feel free to retouch and repost my images. Critique, Suggestions, and Technique tips always welcomed.
Color correction at EZP is via our automated software and is all-or-none.
Portfolio • Workshops • Facebook • Twitter
Thank you for this post. It confirms what I thought. I work on a color calibrated monitor, with auto color off from EZprints I've never had a problem, prints are basically WYSIWYG. I order ALL of my proofs for wedding clients from smugmug because of the back printing options available and as an example of the quality they will get from repeat orders. I love some of the services offered by Bay, with the wraps and the giclee but for basic prints I can't imagine that there are ANY (wedding) pros who are not yet working on a calibrated monitor or are throwing their stuff up on smugmug without correction. I can see the value in this for event and sports photography and I would pay 4 cents more/4x6 for better prints (paper quality/finish) from Bay with the correction off but not if the results are indistinguishable from EZ with the correction off. Thanks for doing this comparision, and thanks smugmug for offering this choice of service.
It's actually most pros that do this. Most all the active, full time, professional wedding folks we've talked to over the last six months want nearly ZERO to do with post processing and so will maybe do a quick batch edit for exposure (if that) but otherwise, will leave it all up to the lab (Bay in this case). There are lots of pros that want to outsourse all the PP as well, and there are companies like shoot dot edit out there that do just that
Portfolio • Workshops • Facebook • Twitter
Cool beans, and I can't wait to try them out! Thanks Andy!
Stephen Skoutas
http://stephenskoutas.com
sskoutas@gmail.com Certe, toto, sentio nos in kansate non iam adesse
Please feel free to retouch and repost my images. Critique, Suggestions, and Technique tips always welcomed.
I know a lot of Dgrinner and Smuggers did not work with photos in the film age......but havingcome from the film age I can tell you that having some of the stress lifted off you by having competent and reliable processors to work with is a real joy........
see this thread for full comments on why I want a competent and reliable Processor at my beck and call.....................
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
When I go to the Bay Photos site, I see that they offer mounted prints.
From scanning the twenty or so pages of this thread, I believe the answer to my question (can I order mounted prints via smugmug/bay?), is: sometime in the future we will offer this, but not now.
Is this a correct assessment?
And, one more question - is there a single page that communicates to pro account users the current bay offerings that are available to us? I'd much rather go to a single, update centralized resource page, instead of searching through a forum crossing my fingers that my search results include the right information. While the forum format is useful for certain purposes - it's frustrating for pros who are simply looking for the data and would like to find a nicely published list that can be used as a quick reference (perhaps this is out there somewhere and I'm just not aware of it?)
http://www.smugmug.com/prints/catalog/BP
And here's both labs:
http://www.smugmug.com/prints/catalog/ABP
You get to this catalog from the footer of www.smugmug.com or any public SmugMug page or also from here http://www.smugmug.com/help/choice-of-printing-labs
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I am in the process of evaluating SmugMug. Do you have a rough time frame for Bay Photo mounted prints being added to SmugMug? days, weeks, months or years? Currently, I always have 8x10 prints and larger mounted on artboard for improved durability.
Portfolio • Workshops • Facebook • Twitter
Hope I made the right decision.
Jeff
http://www.datewealthypeople.com
Galleries here Upcoming Ranch/Horse Workshop
I'm a developer... isn't it amazing how you can check and double check everything, but there seems to always be something.
I'm willing to be patient for sub-galleries, coupons, x-mas cards selectable by clients, and brides able to mark favs, if you don't change to morephotos pricing. Thanks for balancing effort for us and cost to us!