Why can't just the entry(s) that have the irregularities be disqualified? Why should everyone be punished for their behavior?
This doesn't seem very fair.
That this happened at all isn't fair, and it is very disappointing. We've been through this before, and it's enough to tempt scrapping more than just one round. The truth is, more than one person suffers when events like this happen; it affects the entire community. This is the fairest way to ensure the challenges continue to happen, because the onus is on all of us, really, to uphold the honor system we have here.
Irregularities were discovered in the voting for DSS #27, and the round will no longer qualify for prizes or participation in Mega-Challenge #5. Entries will remain posted in the gallery, but the poll and results have been disqualified due to voting anomalies.
Contests and challenges at DGrin are run on the honor system. Registering new users solely for the purpose of voting for an image is disrespectful of other participants, and it is dishonest. If it continues, it could result in banning or, worse, the dissolution of the challenges entirely.
We'd like to maintain the spirit of our challenges, and we cannot do that without everyone's honest participation.
Since you obviously know who the perpetrator is, why not disqualify them and move on Why punish everyone The only reason I can imagine, is that you want to protect their identity and avoid embarrassing them, which I suppose is honorable.:D
:splat This is not the first time this has happened. It also happened in the LPS challenges. I remember either Andy or DoctorIt posting a note that very clearly stated that this will not be tolerated.
I think they were able to get around it by not counting votes from new members who had signed up for Dgrin during the voting period.
I participate in this purely for the challenge, feedback and community and it really sucks that I finally make the cut and someone joins solely to stack the deck.
Whoever you are, GO AWAY! You are a leech and are not welcome. I am extremely annoyed that you took something away from me: The honest votes and views on my work from a community that I came into to learn from.
What is "public voting"? Just out of curiosity, how would that work (does the system allow all to see who votes and for whom?)
Unfortunately on the internet it's impossible to entirely trust anybody or anything behind a screen-name (although I notice that many here use their real names or, like myself, make it clear they're "real people" behind the handle). But the overwhelming sense of community at dgrin has made it (in my experience, at least) one of the less problematic sites for trolling and other nonsense, which is one of the reasons I've stuck around . Renewed kudos too, to the mods - it is harder to monitor a forum than most people realise, and even on the (rare) occasions I don't entirely agree with them I absolutely respect their decisions, and know how tough they are to make. They do their job extremely well and with remarkably few flare-ups
I'm so sorry this has come up, and sincerely hope that the future of the challenges is not in jeopardy. As many of you know, the Challenges are what first pushed me off the photographic sidelines into deciding to REALLY learn how to do this thing, ultimately leading to my pursuing this far more seriously than I had ever anticipated, and I will be very VERY sad indeed if they are forced to disappear.
Shame on you, naughty voters :patch - for some this may be all about winning, but for many involved (I would like to think MOST), it's about learning, sharing, and growing while having a few laughs along the way. Punto.
then if not disbanding the system, go public voting.... [crickets sound]
We got rid of the public voting so people would actually vote for the photo they thought was the best rather than vote for the same one the majority of others were voting for.
I think they were able to get around it by not counting votes from new members who had signed up for Dgrin during the voting period.
I think this is something worth considering. A "Post" count of some form prior to being able to participate or vote in challenges (Even if that excludes me for a while.) It isn't an internet popularity contest. It's meant to be a vehicle to get creative juices going amongst a community. A least in my view. A little competition is good, but only with those that demonstrate willingness to play by the rules.
I think this is something worth considering. A "Post" count of some form prior to being able to participate or vote in challenges (Even if that excludes me for a while.) It isn't an internet popularity contest. It's meant to be a vehicle to get creative juices going amongst a community. A least in my view. A little competition is good, but only with those that demonstrate willingness to play by the rules.
We got rid of the public voting so people would actually vote for the photo they thought was the best rather than vote for the same one the majority of others were voting for.
public voting : meaning the user name is attached to the vote....yes you can see who voted for who....
when one person has 15 votes from user names that dont really participate or are lurkers then it can raise question.... but then again that makes lurkers that are really helpful be a problem... so public voting wont work...
Since you obviously know who the perpetrator is, why not disqualify them and move on Why punish everyone The only reason I can imagine, is that you want to protect their identity and avoid embarrassing them, which I suppose is honorable.:D
Aaaah, in case you know who did it and don't want to make it public, why just interdict the person to
participate again in a Dgrin contest?
quote=Llywellyn]
Contests and challenges at DGrin are run on the honor system. Registering new users solely for the purpose of voting for an image is disrespectful of other participants, and it is dishonest. quote]
I have no idea what you are able to tell or see from the judging, but it sounds as though you are able to see "newly registered members"...is it possible to eliminate those particular votes in the poll, and let it continue? It's probably far-fetched, I know, just a thought:D
Karin
"Dance like no one is watching. Sing like no one is listening. Love like you've never been hurt and live like it's heaven on Earth." — Mark Twain
quote=Llywellyn]
Contests and challenges at DGrin are run on the honor system. Registering new users solely for the purpose of voting for an image is disrespectful of other participants, and it is dishonest. quote]
I have no idea what you are able to tell or see from the judging, but it sounds as though you are able to see "newly registered members"...is it possible to eliminate those particular votes in the poll, and let it continue? It's probably far-fetched, I know, just a thought:D
The good news is, I won't be able to see how bad I got my butt whooped in this round.
I finally get pasted being DQed for not putting my name on the shot, or some other reason, and then something like this happens.
It seems as though if there's a prize, someone will try to take advantage of the system.
Get rid of the prizes and this crap will be over. Then the folks that want to be here, will be here.
For voting, the public vote works for me.
The post has your name on it, and the name of the shot that you're voting for. That's it.
No comments about why you voted for it, nothing.
But, you would also have to make it so a person couldn't edit their post, or change their vote.
You vote once, and that's it.
I was starting to look around for a shot for the next challenge, but really, what's the point?
Voting is open to all CURRENT DGrin members. This is a slight change, no one who registers after the time this poll is opened will be eligible to vote. We would like to hope there is no ill intent, but this removes the temptation.
and
IMPORTANT NOTE FROM ANDY, Feb 22, 930am ET:
We are seeing some voting anomalies, and they are causing some heartburn amongst the entire moderator team, and many, many disinterested people in the Dgrin community (non-LPS finalists!), as well as LPS entrants and finalists. I don't like having to do this but I (and it is MY decision, make no mistake about that) have decided, after careful consideration to do the following:
* Voting will continue
* ALL VOTES from any dgrin member who joined after February 17, 2008, 11:59:59 PM are being disqualified.
the poll voting system we are using right now has an option to allow user name attachment. in otherwords when i vote my user name is linked on the right side where we see the voting count.
the problem to that is i wonder if a trend would start indiviually where one feels the need to return the favor for a vote when it comes down to two images he/her likes but one of them is from a user name that voted prior for yours...thatkindasortathingystuff.....
anyway, i still will always preach the judging system as long as its on rotational system.
I was starting to look around for a shot for the next challenge, but really, what's the point?
It would be extremely easy for me to do this. Given the limited time I have for photography, I've actually been wondering if the challenges have held me back from exploring some other ideas I want to develop. But, the point is the threads and discussions that happen up to and including the finalist selection process. That is clearly untainted and valuable. It's the voting process afterwards that suffers.
While I am desperate to know how I might have placed in #27 (I'd really like to be in a mega-challenge), I'm going to go get some circles or squares this weekend.
...
I was starting to look around for a shot for the next challenge, but really, what's the point?
It sucks that someone's wrecked this Challenge round. There's a lot of great, creative work in the pool.
The point of working up a shot for the next Challenge is to share your work with other avid phototographers in order to learn and grow. That part of the Challenges can't be changed by voting irregularities.
The votes in question were all from newly registered users. Unfortunately, just eliminating those votes would not have eliminated the issue entirely as the image in question would have remained in the top five (ah, irony), and rewarding the behavior was not an option. DQ'ing one entry would be equivalent to outing one person for a public flogging, which leaves an equally bad taste in my mouth.
I listened to many voices and viewpoints on the matter, and I lost sleep over this decision. I honestly still feel sick to my stomach over the whole thing. This all really hurts, but it's better than ending the challenges entirely. That would just take away from all the real good that's accomplished here: the discussion and the growth and the idea generation.
We've tried every version of judging and voting being discussed here now. There's a flaw in every system; this one just worked a little longer than the others. I'm too disheartened at the moment to think about restructuring anything. I've exhausted my straight-thinking skills.
The votes in question were all from newly registered users. Unfortunately, just eliminating those votes would not have eliminated the issue entirely as the image in question would have remained in the top five (ah, irony), and rewarding the behavior was not an option. DQ'ing one entry would be equivalent to outing one person for a public flogging, which leaves an equally bad taste in my mouth.
I listened to many voices and viewpoints on the matter, and I lost sleep over this decision. I honestly still feel sick to my stomach over the whole thing. This all really hurts, but it's better than ending the challenges entirely. That would just take away from all the real good that's accomplished here: the discussion and the growth and the idea generation.
We've tried every version of judging and voting being discussed here now. There's a flaw in every system; this one just worked a little longer than the others. I'm too disheartened at the moment to think about restructuring anything. I've exhausted my straight-thinking skills.
Kerry,
I would be sick at this stage if I were in your shoes. What a horribly stressful thing to have to deal with, especially as a volunteer. I have a hard enough time dealing with the stress in my day job, much less my hobbies. I hope the person in question knows he or she has been caught out and others are watching.
The votes in question were all from newly registered users. Unfortunately, just eliminating those votes would not have eliminated the issue entirely as the image in question would have remained in the top five (ah, irony), and rewarding the behavior was not an option. DQ'ing one entry would be equivalent to outing one person for a public flogging, which leaves an equally bad taste in my mouth.
I listened to many voices and viewpoints on the matter, and I lost sleep over this decision. I honestly still feel sick to my stomach over the whole thing. This all really hurts, but it's better than ending the challenges entirely. That would just take away from all the real good that's accomplished here: the discussion and the growth and the idea generation.
We've tried every version of judging and voting being discussed here now. There's a flaw in every system; this one just worked a little longer than the others. I'm too disheartened at the moment to think about restructuring anything. I've exhausted my straight-thinking skills.
:splat This is not the first time this has happened. It also happened in the LPS challenges. I remember either Andy or DoctorIt posting a note that very clearly stated that this will not be tolerated.
I think they were able to get around it by not counting votes from new members who had signed up for Dgrin during the voting period.
That makes sense! This way we are throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Shucks.. I go away for an hour or two and look what happens!!
Anyway, I was waiting until after the vote was announced to complete entering my comments into the gallery, which I'll do as soon as I have a moment this weekend... I might even consolidate them into the feedback gallery...
Thanks Kerry for doing all of this for us, and especially for keeping it as light as you can while trying to do the formal stuff correctly. In the overall scheme of things this is a lot less important than a lot of other things...
hmmmm.. I am sorry guys.. what a bummer.. I was so in everyone's corner and just as excited to see who was going to win.. Everyone worked so hard on the boards with each other to perfect their entry... cry(:
This is my take on it... and seems the most logical solution in my opinion..
I would just start treating it like the Mega Challenge.. and have a select 4 to 5 judges... This way you avoid any possibility of cheating altogether..
(( It takes the guess work out of the equation)).
I get what Aaron is saying about public voting too, that would just lead to buddy systems within buddy systems..
I also agree with the option of letting "all" smugmug users vote.. it would be a great way to get the entire smug family involved, families and all.... ?
Either that or Mega Challenge format is what I vote for..
I had a feeling it was going to be neck and neck in this one, you all did so well..
Shame on whoever you are... There is no true sportsmanship in what you have done,,, what is the point of winning if you truly did not win, what does that prove.....:nono ok, starting to feel mother henish,, leaving now.. before I break into full blown lecture..
Comments
That this happened at all isn't fair, and it is very disappointing. We've been through this before, and it's enough to tempt scrapping more than just one round. The truth is, more than one person suffers when events like this happen; it affects the entire community. This is the fairest way to ensure the challenges continue to happen, because the onus is on all of us, really, to uphold the honor system we have here.
Since you obviously know who the perpetrator is, why not disqualify them and move on
http://danielplumer.com/
Facebook Fan Page
What about letting to vote only people who have an account with smugmug.com ?
*** I'm personally happy that I made it to the finalists, and since every contest is
mainly challenging with yourself, I think we are still winners...
TravelwaysPhotos.com ...... Facebook
VegasGreatAttractions.com
Travelways.com
http://lrichters.smugmug.com
Whoever you are, GO AWAY! You are a leech and are not welcome. I am extremely annoyed that you took something away from me: The honest votes and views on my work from a community that I came into to learn from.
What is "public voting"? Just out of curiosity, how would that work (does the system allow all to see who votes and for whom?)
Unfortunately on the internet it's impossible to entirely trust anybody or anything behind a screen-name (although I notice that many here use their real names or, like myself, make it clear they're "real people" behind the handle). But the overwhelming sense of community at dgrin has made it (in my experience, at least) one of the less problematic sites for trolling and other nonsense, which is one of the reasons I've stuck around . Renewed kudos too, to the mods - it is harder to monitor a forum than most people realise, and even on the (rare) occasions I don't entirely agree with them I absolutely respect their decisions, and know how tough they are to make. They do their job extremely well and with remarkably few flare-ups
I'm so sorry this has come up, and sincerely hope that the future of the challenges is not in jeopardy. As many of you know, the Challenges are what first pushed me off the photographic sidelines into deciding to REALLY learn how to do this thing, ultimately leading to my pursuing this far more seriously than I had ever anticipated, and I will be very VERY sad indeed if they are forced to disappear.
Shame on you, naughty voters :patch - for some this may be all about winning, but for many involved (I would like to think MOST), it's about learning, sharing, and growing while having a few laughs along the way. Punto.
http://lrichters.smugmug.com
have you asked the person why this is happening?
i have a few scenarios brewing in my mind...but since im not in the "Know" i can only guess.....
I think this is something worth considering. A "Post" count of some form prior to being able to participate or vote in challenges (Even if that excludes me for a while.) It isn't an internet popularity contest. It's meant to be a vehicle to get creative juices going amongst a community. A least in my view. A little competition is good, but only with those that demonstrate willingness to play by the rules.
Bravo - EXACTLY.
Frankly, I'd just rather not even know who the individual was. :pissed
http://lrichters.smugmug.com
public voting : meaning the user name is attached to the vote....yes you can see who voted for who....
when one person has 15 votes from user names that dont really participate or are lurkers then it can raise question.... but then again that makes lurkers that are really helpful be a problem... so public voting wont work...
Aaaah, in case you know who did it and don't want to make it public, why just interdict the person to
participate again in a Dgrin contest?
- may be it is possible to make another pool?...
TravelwaysPhotos.com ...... Facebook
VegasGreatAttractions.com
Travelways.com
Contests and challenges at DGrin are run on the honor system. Registering new users solely for the purpose of voting for an image is disrespectful of other participants, and it is dishonest. quote]
I have no idea what you are able to tell or see from the judging, but it sounds as though you are able to see "newly registered members"...is it possible to eliminate those particular votes in the poll, and let it continue? It's probably far-fetched, I know, just a thought:D
"Dance like no one is watching. Sing like no one is listening. Love like you've never been hurt and live like it's heaven on Earth." — Mark Twain
IP based i imagine
I finally get pasted being DQed for not putting my name on the shot, or some other reason, and then something like this happens.
It seems as though if there's a prize, someone will try to take advantage of the system.
Get rid of the prizes and this crap will be over. Then the folks that want to be here, will be here.
For voting, the public vote works for me.
The post has your name on it, and the name of the shot that you're voting for. That's it.
No comments about why you voted for it, nothing.
But, you would also have to make it so a person couldn't edit their post, or change their vote.
You vote once, and that's it.
I was starting to look around for a shot for the next challenge, but really, what's the point?
Basking in the shadows of yesterday's triumphs'.
From LPS finals: http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=85283
and
http://lrichters.smugmug.com
the problem to that is i wonder if a trend would start indiviually where one feels the need to return the favor for a vote when it comes down to two images he/her likes but one of them is from a user name that voted prior for yours...thatkindasortathingystuff.....
anyway, i still will always preach the judging system as long as its on rotational system.
[crickets, chirp chirp]
It would be extremely easy for me to do this. Given the limited time I have for photography, I've actually been wondering if the challenges have held me back from exploring some other ideas I want to develop. But, the point is the threads and discussions that happen up to and including the finalist selection process. That is clearly untainted and valuable. It's the voting process afterwards that suffers.
While I am desperate to know how I might have placed in #27 (I'd really like to be in a mega-challenge), I'm going to go get some circles or squares this weekend.
It sucks that someone's wrecked this Challenge round. There's a lot of great, creative work in the pool.
The point of working up a shot for the next Challenge is to share your work with other avid phototographers in order to learn and grow. That part of the Challenges can't be changed by voting irregularities.
I listened to many voices and viewpoints on the matter, and I lost sleep over this decision. I honestly still feel sick to my stomach over the whole thing. This all really hurts, but it's better than ending the challenges entirely. That would just take away from all the real good that's accomplished here: the discussion and the growth and the idea generation.
We've tried every version of judging and voting being discussed here now. There's a flaw in every system; this one just worked a little longer than the others. I'm too disheartened at the moment to think about restructuring anything. I've exhausted my straight-thinking skills.
Kerry,
I would be sick at this stage if I were in your shoes. What a horribly stressful thing to have to deal with, especially as a volunteer. I have a hard enough time dealing with the stress in my day job, much less my hobbies. I hope the person in question knows he or she has been caught out and others are watching.
Jenn
That makes sense! This way we are throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Carl
Anyway, I was waiting until after the vote was announced to complete entering my comments into the gallery, which I'll do as soon as I have a moment this weekend... I might even consolidate them into the feedback gallery...
Thanks Kerry for doing all of this for us, and especially for keeping it as light as you can while trying to do the formal stuff correctly. In the overall scheme of things this is a lot less important than a lot of other things...
www.HoofClix.com / Personal Facebook / Facebook Page
and I do believe its true.. that there are roads left in both of our shoes..
This is my take on it... and seems the most logical solution in my opinion..
I would just start treating it like the Mega Challenge.. and have a select 4 to 5 judges... This way you avoid any possibility of cheating altogether..
(( It takes the guess work out of the equation)).
I get what Aaron is saying about public voting too, that would just lead to buddy systems within buddy systems..
I also agree with the option of letting "all" smugmug users vote.. it would be a great way to get the entire smug family involved, families and all.... ?
Either that or Mega Challenge format is what I vote for..
I had a feeling it was going to be neck and neck in this one, you all did so well..
Shame on whoever you are... There is no true sportsmanship in what you have done,,, what is the point of winning if you truly did not win, what does that prove.....:nono ok, starting to feel mother henish,, leaving now.. before I break into full blown lecture..
Kat
:nah Nah...I heard the butler did it.
http://lrichters.smugmug.com