Print Credit Explanation
Several of you have expressed concern about how the print credits work.
Print credits are exactly like gift cards and can be used in combination* with a credit card to pay for an order.
Currently, only you as the site owner can issue them and they apply only to your site.
But to illustrate the potential scope of this feature... someday your customers may be able to buy them for each other as gifts. Someday we may sell general SmugMug print credits that can be used to buy prints and/or digital downloads from any SmugMug account.
Regardless of the origin of the print credit (gift card), the purchaser of the card is responsible for the full amount of the card. Just like buying a $110 gift card at iTunes, a $110 print credit at SmugMug costs you $110 to buy.
In the special case of a pro creating his own print credits (gift cards), as a courtesy we hold off on charging your card until the print credit is actually used. At that point, we could charge you the full amount used (say $110), but if there was pro profit on the order, we deduct that from $110 and only charge you the remaining amount.
Example:
- Customer orders $10 worth of prints that you marked up to $110.
- They have a $110 print credit so to them, the prints are free.
- Your standard profit on an order (the print credit doesn't affect your profit at all) is 85% of the markup. In this case, the markup is $100 so your profit is $85.
- We could charge you the full $110 because you gave out a $110 print credit (gift card), and then cut you a profit check for $85.
- That would be silly, so we charge you $25 and don't cut you a check.
Clear as mud?
Two sample use cases:
A) A pro charges a $200 portrait package that includes so many locations, outfit changes, etc. and a $50 print credit. In that case, the pro could be "collecting" the exact cost of the print credit (he would have charged $150 without it), or he may be using it as an incentive to buy prints (he may charge $165 without it, but giving $50 credit for a $35 return is a marketing decision.)
A pro wants to give his mom prints for Christmas but doesn't know what she'll like best so he sets up a special gallery with at cost pricing for her, and puts $50 print credit code under the tree. He will end up paying $50 for that print credit after his mom places her order(s), as all the prints will be at-cost and there won't be any pro markup involved.
(Incidentally, I do hope we allow at cost coupons to be used in conjunction with print credits in a future release. That would mean the mom in the example above could just plug in the atcost code, then the print credit and she'd be set.)
-Anne
SmugMug Support Hero
*In the future, we hope to allow print credits to cover shipping as well, in which case a credit card may not be needed if the print credit is large enough to cover the entire cost of the order.
[quote=ckysports] Is there any way to email the coupons to our customers? For example I want to send out an email to people that have already bought our photos and allow them to take 20% off reprints.
[/quote]
2. Auto coupons - I set up my portfolio pricing and set up auto coupon of 20% off to a 'Category/Gallery A, B and C', every time I change my 'portfolio' pricing the Categories/Galleries prices changes accordingly. That is another long waited wish feature of introducing virtual pricing. The coupon is applied automatically to this gallery, the client don't need to even know about it. (show/hide).
Hmm.. intesting. Am I right in thinking this is really a feature for the pricing tool, and not for coupons? You're asking for a gallery to always reflect pricing that has a set relationship to portfolio pricing? E.g. "baseball" is always 10% less than portfolio, and "football" is always 25% less than portfolio?
I LOVE to sell 'gift cards' but not sure how to use 'Print Credit' in that respect. I can set up a demo gallery with 'virtual gift cards' images and price them at $100, $200 etc. when my client buy them, I pay 15% and when they use the credit I pay 15% again??? any idea.
Good question. Presumably you'd handle this transaction directly with the customer via Paypal, check/cash, Google checkout, etc. In other words, something outside of SmugMug's shopping cart. I hope we will add a feature so that your customers can buy cards for each other or for themselves. In that case, SmugMug would collect the full cost of the card and then dish out your profit just like we do when your customer uses a credit card to pay for their order.
My title says it all "At Cost Plus Dollar amount markup". Simple I can add $1 or $5. just enough to keep making a profit. Let me choose if I want a customer to know what my actual cost is.
If I am understanding this correctly, I don't think this is something we are planning to add, sorry!
I'll admit to being a bit confused. If you want your customer to see certain prices, why not just price that way or use a %off or $off coupon to make effective prices that way? It sounds like maybe this is a request for a completely alternate price list that will show up if a customer enters the code associated with that price list?
Well, I understand the usage of it, as though the credit is basically cash, and so you are inherently charging the vendor the cash for the credit.
The difficulty is that I would suggest the vendors don't typically use credit in that way. Again, credit is one of the more inexpensive things for us to give, but this way we have to pay out of pocket for everything, whereas we could just print the images for the "credit" through our own account and that would save the 15% markup.
What I don't understand is why Smugmug is looking at a reduced mark-up for the percentage discounts, and to at cost items, but when it comes to the credit that is suddenly treated as cash.
Anne, you've really cleared up a lot for me with your last page of posts. Thank you!
The way credit is being handled makes sense. If we want to go to the trouble of self-fulfillment, we keep all the profit from the order, but then, it's more trouble. If we want the ease of handing the transaction, fulfillment, and distribution over to SmugMug and the lab of choice, we pay a 15% premium on the order, as we would with any other order.
I also shoot sports MMA/UFC fights and would love to give coupons but as Dudley said, I set my 4x6 prices cheap, now for multiple sales. People are more likely to buy my 4x6's of an event than anything else. I would hate to lose 10-15% on next to nothing because they can use them on anything. I only use Bay Photo for printing, so that is a deep cut!
I wonder if "free shipping on orders over x amount" coupons may be helpful in lower margin markets? That would encourage large volume orders!
Example:
- Customer orders $10 worth of prints that you marked up to $110.
- They have a $110 print credit so to them, the prints are free.
- Your standard profit on an order (the print credit doesn't affect your profit at all) is 85% of the markup. In this case, the markup is $100 so your profit is $85.
- We could charge you the full $110 because you gave out a $110 print credit (gift card), and then cut you a profit check for $85.
- That would be silly, so we charge you $25 and don't cut you a check.
Clear as mud?
No, actually, I think that's really clear. Thanks for clarifying, Anne. And many many thanks to you and the team for some great work on coupons. Obviously, there are improvements to come. But what a great beginning. Thank you!
I think the gripe here is that "Print Credit" is really a misnomer, as far as Pros are concerned. While it may be a "Print Credit" from a customer's perspective, there's a "tax" involved for Pros who use a Print Credit.
For instance, let's say I book a client and I want to give them a session that includes 3 "free" 8x10 prints. Let's pretend that my 8x10 prints are marked-up to $10 each.
Option #1 for me is that I order the prints for them. I buy them "at cost" from the gallery, and I have them shipped directly to the client. It appears to the client that they're receiving $30 worth of goods, but I'm only paying a few dollars. Nice. Except I don't want to be the middleman anymore. I don't want to order prints for my client. I was hoping that coupons would take care of that.
Option #2 is to use Print Credits... I give my client $30 worth of Print Credits, so they can "buy" the prints for the cost of shipping... but then I get charged 15% of the markup, as you described above. Frankly, that's a "Print Credit Tax" when you compare this to the scenario I described above where I purchase the prints for my customer.
It's cheaper (but more work) for me to order the prints at-cost, and have them shipped to the client. So far, I'm not very compelled to offer a Print Credit - I'd much rather save the money, and order the prints for my client. More work, but no "tax".
The best option, of course - and the one that I was hoping for when I saw the words "Print Credit" - doesn't exist. A true "print credit" would enable my customer to use a $30 print credit to buy 3 8x10 prints, and then we - the Pros - get charged the actual cost for the 3 8x10 prints. All behind the scenes, of course, so the client feels like they're getting $30 in free prints, and we needn't be the middleman anymore to make it happen.
Anyway, I don't want to speak for everyone... but I know that's my frustration with the Print Credit concept. I'm sure y'all will continue to tweak things and improve them. It's nice to have a forum like this to exchange ideas ahead of those improvements.
Anyway, I don't want to speak for everyone... but I know that's my frustration with the Print Credit concept. I'm sure y'all will continue to tweak things and improve them. It's nice to have a forum like this to exchange ideas ahead of those improvements.
Awesome feedback, thanks. All of us at SmugMug are reading and digesting.
I wonder if "free shipping on orders over x amount" coupons may be helpful in lower margin markets? That would encourage large volume orders!
-Anne
YES!!! I can see a lot of people canceling orders at the last second after seeing the shipping charges. :cry
For a one piece, two piece type order, shipping makes the per print cost go up. At the same time, someone has to pay for it, so it would have to be a high enough dollar amount that the profit doesn't get completely annihilated.
I've actually been thinking on how to make a "but x 8x10s and get a 4x6 free" type coupon or somehow use the word "free". You could say "free coal" and people would jump on it.
Free Shipping Codes = Awesome!! Think about it: what was (and still is) one of the primary reasons why Amazon.com (not thought of as a low-end place to buy) skyrocketed in popularity as an e-store? FREE shipping over $25. I would gladly offer free shipping with a minimum purchase as it would likely be the one thing that pushes the guest into purchasing...or make them select more prints/products that they would not have normally purchased but do in order to get free shipping. There is great power in the word "free". If it gets more of my images on walls and away from hard drives, I'm all for it!
Thanks for all you guys are doing. I frequently check the release notes blog now like it's Christmas morning. :-)
At what point does the client enter in the coupon code?
I just set up a coupon and was going to buy a print like a client but I don't see anywhere for the client to put in a coupon code. I fill everything out up to the point where I click place order, ( I didn't place the order) but no where along the way did I see an area for the coupon code.
At what point does the client enter in the coupon code?
I just set up a coupon and was going to buy a print like a client but I don't see anywhere for the client to put in a coupon code. I fill everything out up to the point where I click place order, ( I didn't place the order) but no where along the way did I see an area for the coupon code.
However, the print credit coupons seem to be a rip-off. I mean print credit for a client is often one of the most inexpensive things I can give them, but with it set up this way it becomes quite pricey as I have to pay the typical mark up plus the print cost.
Ouch.
I do not work for SmugMug and have no insight to their reasoning. I am just a Pro User like all the others.
But if I was in SmugMug's shoes, this is how my reasoning would justify a 15% commission on 'print credit'. A print credit should be thought of as a pre-paid gift card. You as the photographer have been paid say $50.00 for a gift card. You have therefore made $50.00 and your client can order $50.00 worth of prints. The client just paid you directly rather then pay SmugMug who then pays you.
From SmugMug's perspective, if the client had not paid you $50.00 first but instead just ordered $50.00 in prints first, they would get 15%.
So why should SmugMug loose 15% because the client choose to pay you directly for the prints and they do all the work of filling the order and communicating with the client if the client is dissatisfied in any way?
From a SmugMug customer, I have no problem with the Print Credit when thought of it in the terms described above.
The markup on my galleries is 0 'cause I'm not a pro (photog, but have a pro account).
If I give a Print Credit to family/friends then the entire amount goes to processing with no 15% cut for SmugMug and no extra costs to me. Is that OK? It's OK for me:D , but I not trying to do something sneaky here that undermines the business model that keep SmugMug operating, you guys are great!!
However when gallery specific Print Credits come any pro can do this. Make a gallery with 0 markup, give out Print Credits for that gallery, with cost only pricing taken into account, and the entire amount of the PrintCredit goes to processing cost with no 15% cut for SmugMug an no extra costs for the pro. The problem with this is that then the pro would be exposing their costs to their customers.
I think what is being asked for here is a way to use Print Credits to give away prints at processing cost only (no 15% cut for SumgMug) without exposing the actual print costs to customers.
Is the reason Print Credits work the way that they do because in the future they will become like regular retail trade gift cards or is it because losing the %15 of the markup on pro Print Credits makes it not a viable business? Knowing this would make it easier to understand why Print Credits for pros are treated the same way as retail trade gift cards are...
Example:
- Customer orders $10 worth of prints that you marked up to $110.
- They have a $110 print credit so to them, the prints are free.
- Your standard profit on an order (the print credit doesn't affect your profit at all) is 85% of the markup. In this case, the markup is $100 so your profit is $85.
- We could charge you the full $110 because you gave out a $110 print credit (gift card), and then cut you a profit check for $85.
- That would be silly, so we charge you $25 and don't cut you a check.
Is the reason Print Credits work the way that they do because in the future they will become like regular retail trade gift cards or is it because losing the %15 of the markup on pro Print Credits makes it not a viable business? Knowing this would make it easier to understand why Print Credits for pros are treated the same way as retail trade gift cards are...
First, your message was all black, which makes it hard to read.
Second, from what I'm reading, Print Credits assume that the photog got paid for the credit (as part of the package fee, what-have-you) - so think of their taking a 15% cut on Print Credits as SM's way of facilitating a "If you get paid, then we get paid", which is how they make their money to grow the business, add new features, pay for lawyers to fight patent trolls, etc. SM's 15% isn't a "tax", it's their share of the profits for helping you succeed in business.
That there are other ways for photogs to get around that 15% cut and keep it all for themselves (by charging direct and then buying the pics at cost and putting the customer's ship-to address on the order) is a given, but it violates the spirit of the relationship between SM and the photog.
Baldy's based his business decisions on most people 'doing the right thing', and hopefully his faith in people will be well-founded by most people not abusing the process.
Save $5 off your first year's SmugMug image hosting with coupon code hccesQbqNBJbc
Hmmm, not sure. The coupon entry box is on the top of the Payment Info screen with the next button for the customer to click is "Confirm Order". I'm not seeing it on your site either. Perhaps some parameters are not being met according to how the coupon is set up, i.e. order minimum, date, # of uses?
That there are other ways for photogs to get around that 15% cut and keep it all for themselves (by charging direct and then buying the pics at cost and putting the customer's ship-to address on the order) is a given, but it violates the spirit of the relationship between SM and the photog.
I don't really consider that "getting around" the system or a violation of the spirit... Until less than a week ago it was the only way for a photog to charge a client directly, and it still requires the photog to collect and manually enter the order.
Print credits eliminate that burden, but cost 15% of the profit. I'm as cheap as they come, but it seems like an equitable trade to me.
I don't really consider that "getting around" the system or a violation of the spirit... Until less than a week ago it was the only way for a photog to charge a client directly, and it still requires the photog to collect and manually enter the order.
Print credits eliminate that burden, but cost 15% of the profit. I'm as cheap as they come, but it seems like an equitable trade to me.
Hmmm, not sure. The coupon entry box is on the top of the Payment Info screen with the next button for the customer to click is "Confirm Order". I'm not seeing it on your site either. Perhaps some parameters are not being met according to how the coupon is set up, i.e. order minimum, date, # of uses?
I have 2 coupons and saved them but looking at the Pros tab it still says 0 active. Do I need to active them somewhere??? What does yours say?
At what point does the client enter in the coupon code?
I just set up a coupon and was going to buy a print like a client but I don't see anywhere for the client to put in a coupon code. I fill everything out up to the point where I click place order, ( I didn't place the order) but no where along the way did I see an area for the coupon code.
Anyone???
Hi,
Please check the start date of your coupons. I don't think they are valid yet!
I do not work for SmugMug and have no insight to their reasoning. I am just a Pro User like all the others.
But if I was in SmugMug's shoes, this is how my reasoning would justify a 15% commission on 'print credit'. A print credit should be thought of as a pre-paid gift card. You as the photographer have been paid say $50.00 for a gift card. You have therefore made $50.00 and your client can order $50.00 worth of prints. The client just paid you directly rather then pay SmugMug who then pays you.
From SmugMug's perspective, if the client had not paid you $50.00 first but instead just ordered $50.00 in prints first, they would get 15%.
So why should SmugMug loose 15% because the client choose to pay you directly for the prints and they do all the work of filling the order and communicating with the client if the client is dissatisfied in any way?
From a SmugMug customer, I have no problem with the Print Credit when thought of it in the terms described above.
DM
I thought of it this way too, and it finally made sense.
I understand, but "gifting" stuff to friends/relative would be handy, but if it really undermines what SmugMug is trying to do, I wouldn't do it.
Wait, I don't think it undermines what SmugMug is trying to do... does it? After all, what we're talking about here is really no different from offering products at cost, which SmugMug certainly allows.
SmugMug is a service that I use to make a profit off my customers, and, as part of that deal, SmugMug gets a cut of my profit. I have no desire to undermine that relationship - it's fair and equitable.
But, if I decide to give my clients something through Smugmug without making a profit, SmugMug shouldn't get a cut -- essentially charging me a "tax" on profit I never made.
The system I was hoping for would allow for me to step out of that process - to allow customers the option to order their own items, while enabling me to pick up the at-cost tab. As you say, this ability to "gift stuff" would be handy, and there's certainly no obligation for SmugMug to create an easier system for easy "gifting" items at cost.
But, if I were in charge of SmugMug, I would try to give my Pros every tool possible for creating fantastic relationships with customers. That's what will keep me as a SmugMug Pro. I want ALL of the flexibility to make business decisions about giving items away for free (while paying the cost) or charging my clients the mark-up and happily giving SmugMug a cut. Those decisions don't undermine SmugMug - they should be the very essence of what SmugMug offers: flexibility and capability for Pros. Just my two cents, of course.
The markup on my galleries is 0 'cause I'm not a pro (photog, but have a pro account).
If I give a Print Credit to family/friends then the entire amount goes to processing with no 15% cut for SmugMug and no extra costs to me. Is that OK? It's OK for me:D , but I not trying to do something sneaky here that undermines the business model that keep SmugMug operating, you guys are great!!
However when gallery specific Print Credits come any pro can do this. Make a gallery with 0 markup, give out Print Credits for that gallery, with cost only pricing taken into account, and the entire amount of the PrintCredit goes to processing cost with no 15% cut for SmugMug an no extra costs for the pro. The problem with this is that then the pro would be exposing their costs to their customers.
I think what is being asked for here is a way to use Print Credits to give away prints at processing cost only (no 15% cut for SumgMug) without exposing the actual print costs to customers.
Is the reason Print Credits work the way that they do because in the future they will become like regular retail trade gift cards or is it because losing the %15 of the markup on pro Print Credits makes it not a viable business? Knowing this would make it easier to understand why Print Credits for pros are treated the same way as retail trade gift cards are...
Yep, we'd be thrilled if print credits were useful to you on galleries for friends and family. We're not looking to make an extra cut on them, just the same as always, which is 15% of markup if there is any.
A pro could could certainly price their products lower, which would make the 15% cut SmugMug keeps smaller. It also makes their 85% smaller as well, obviously. That's just a business decision they'd have to make!
A $50 print credit means $50 out of pocket for you if you have at cost prices. It means less out of pocket if the customer spends it on products with a markup.
I think there is a difference between a photog selling a Print Credit as a gift card and one who comp's a customer a some prints, thats all.
Well said. I think this gets to the heart of the matter.
The "gift card" argument falls apart in that manner. If a customer bought a $100 gift card for another customer, then I just made $100 profit and of course SmugMug deserves a cut. But if I give a $100 print credit to a customer, no one is paying me for that... so what is there to take a "cut" of? I understand that SM needs to make its money for order processing, etc., but I assume this is built into their pricing relationship with Bay and the other lab. Which is why we are allowed to purchase prints "at cost" in the first place.
I do see, however, that there are loopholes that are difficult to close. If SM offered both (a) gift cards with a 15% commission and (b) print comps at 0% commission, the photographer could create a loophole such that he charges the client $100 for a set number of prints and then not give SM its cut by treating it as a comp rather than a gift card. However, this is not much different than the current loophole of being able to buy prints at cost and charging the client separately.
I suppose this dovetails with the argument for package pricing -- the photographer may offer his wedding client ten 8x10s as part of his wedding package. Then the client need only choose his prints online and enter a certain code at checkout. This would work like a gift card, since presumably the client paid the photographer some amount of money for the wedding package, and SM can take its 15% commission on the prints.
Comments
Several of you have expressed concern about how the print credits work.
Print credits are exactly like gift cards and can be used in combination* with a credit card to pay for an order.
Currently, only you as the site owner can issue them and they apply only to your site.
But to illustrate the potential scope of this feature... someday your customers may be able to buy them for each other as gifts. Someday we may sell general SmugMug print credits that can be used to buy prints and/or digital downloads from any SmugMug account.
Regardless of the origin of the print credit (gift card), the purchaser of the card is responsible for the full amount of the card. Just like buying a $110 gift card at iTunes, a $110 print credit at SmugMug costs you $110 to buy.
In the special case of a pro creating his own print credits (gift cards), as a courtesy we hold off on charging your card until the print credit is actually used. At that point, we could charge you the full amount used (say $110), but if there was pro profit on the order, we deduct that from $110 and only charge you the remaining amount.
Example:
- Customer orders $10 worth of prints that you marked up to $110.
- They have a $110 print credit so to them, the prints are free.
- Your standard profit on an order (the print credit doesn't affect your profit at all) is 85% of the markup. In this case, the markup is $100 so your profit is $85.
- We could charge you the full $110 because you gave out a $110 print credit (gift card), and then cut you a profit check for $85.
- That would be silly, so we charge you $25 and don't cut you a check.
Clear as mud?
Two sample use cases:
A) A pro charges a $200 portrait package that includes so many locations, outfit changes, etc. and a $50 print credit. In that case, the pro could be "collecting" the exact cost of the print credit (he would have charged $150 without it), or he may be using it as an incentive to buy prints (he may charge $165 without it, but giving $50 credit for a $35 return is a marketing decision.)
(Incidentally, I do hope we allow at cost coupons to be used in conjunction with print credits in a future release. That would mean the mom in the example above could just plug in the atcost code, then the print credit and she'd be set.)
-Anne
SmugMug Support Hero
*In the future, we hope to allow print credits to cover shipping as well, in which case a credit card may not be needed if the print credit is large enough to cover the entire cost of the order.
Is there any way to email the coupons to our customers? For example I want to send out an email to people that have already bought our photos and allow them to take 20% off reprints.
[/quote]
Anne can we expect to see this in the near future? Or could you give us a yes/no on project planning for this? If so when can we expect to see this?
J o s e p h S a l m i
P h o t o g r a p h y
Hmm.. intesting. Am I right in thinking this is really a feature for the pricing tool, and not for coupons? You're asking for a gallery to always reflect pricing that has a set relationship to portfolio pricing? E.g. "baseball" is always 10% less than portfolio, and "football" is always 25% less than portfolio?
Good question. Presumably you'd handle this transaction directly with the customer via Paypal, check/cash, Google checkout, etc. In other words, something outside of SmugMug's shopping cart. I hope we will add a feature so that your customers can buy cards for each other or for themselves. In that case, SmugMug would collect the full cost of the card and then dish out your profit just like we do when your customer uses a credit card to pay for their order.
-Anne
SmugMug Support Hero
If I am understanding this correctly, I don't think this is something we are planning to add, sorry!
I'll admit to being a bit confused. If you want your customer to see certain prices, why not just price that way or use a %off or $off coupon to make effective prices that way? It sounds like maybe this is a request for a completely alternate price list that will show up if a customer enters the code associated with that price list?
-Anne
SmugMug Support Hero
The difficulty is that I would suggest the vendors don't typically use credit in that way. Again, credit is one of the more inexpensive things for us to give, but this way we have to pay out of pocket for everything, whereas we could just print the images for the "credit" through our own account and that would save the 15% markup.
What I don't understand is why Smugmug is looking at a reduced mark-up for the percentage discounts, and to at cost items, but when it comes to the credit that is suddenly treated as cash.
-Nate
Equipment
Canon Stuff (and third party stuff as well)
Tampa Bay Wedding Photography
The way credit is being handled makes sense. If we want to go to the trouble of self-fulfillment, we keep all the profit from the order, but then, it's more trouble. If we want the ease of handing the transaction, fulfillment, and distribution over to SmugMug and the lab of choice, we pay a 15% premium on the order, as we would with any other order.
Thanks again for all the hard work!
Facebook
The MoxieBlog
I wonder if "free shipping on orders over x amount" coupons may be helpful in lower margin markets? That would encourage large volume orders!
-Anne
No, actually, I think that's really clear. Thanks for clarifying, Anne. And many many thanks to you and the team for some great work on coupons. Obviously, there are improvements to come. But what a great beginning. Thank you!
I think the gripe here is that "Print Credit" is really a misnomer, as far as Pros are concerned. While it may be a "Print Credit" from a customer's perspective, there's a "tax" involved for Pros who use a Print Credit.
For instance, let's say I book a client and I want to give them a session that includes 3 "free" 8x10 prints. Let's pretend that my 8x10 prints are marked-up to $10 each.
Option #1 for me is that I order the prints for them. I buy them "at cost" from the gallery, and I have them shipped directly to the client. It appears to the client that they're receiving $30 worth of goods, but I'm only paying a few dollars. Nice. Except I don't want to be the middleman anymore. I don't want to order prints for my client. I was hoping that coupons would take care of that.
Option #2 is to use Print Credits... I give my client $30 worth of Print Credits, so they can "buy" the prints for the cost of shipping... but then I get charged 15% of the markup, as you described above. Frankly, that's a "Print Credit Tax" when you compare this to the scenario I described above where I purchase the prints for my customer.
It's cheaper (but more work) for me to order the prints at-cost, and have them shipped to the client. So far, I'm not very compelled to offer a Print Credit - I'd much rather save the money, and order the prints for my client. More work, but no "tax".
The best option, of course - and the one that I was hoping for when I saw the words "Print Credit" - doesn't exist. A true "print credit" would enable my customer to use a $30 print credit to buy 3 8x10 prints, and then we - the Pros - get charged the actual cost for the 3 8x10 prints. All behind the scenes, of course, so the client feels like they're getting $30 in free prints, and we needn't be the middleman anymore to make it happen.
Anyway, I don't want to speak for everyone... but I know that's my frustration with the Print Credit concept. I'm sure y'all will continue to tweak things and improve them. It's nice to have a forum like this to exchange ideas ahead of those improvements.
Matt Dudley Photography
Nashville child photographer
Twitter: @mattdudleyphoto
Facebook: facebook.com/mattdudleyphotography
I'll let Lee answer if this if he's able.
-Anne
SmugMug Support Hero
Awesome feedback, thanks. All of us at SmugMug are reading and digesting.
-Anne
SmugMug Support Hero
For a one piece, two piece type order, shipping makes the per print cost go up. At the same time, someone has to pay for it, so it would have to be a high enough dollar amount that the profit doesn't get completely annihilated.
I've actually been thinking on how to make a "but x 8x10s and get a 4x6 free" type coupon or somehow use the word "free". You could say "free coal" and people would jump on it.
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Except there is no way to make a true "free shipping" coupon right now.
I've worked around it by calling it a "shipping credit" coupon: $2.95 off your picture order (with a minimum set) to offset the cost of shipping.
Hopefully that won't be necessary in the near future.
Thanks for all you guys are doing. I frequently check the release notes blog now like it's Christmas morning. :-)
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I just set up a coupon and was going to buy a print like a client but I don't see anywhere for the client to put in a coupon code. I fill everything out up to the point where I click place order, ( I didn't place the order) but no where along the way did I see an area for the coupon code.
Anyone???
J o s e p h S a l m i
P h o t o g r a p h y
Make sure you are logged out when doing that.
-Danny
dannyberryphotography.com
Facebook
I do not work for SmugMug and have no insight to their reasoning. I am just a Pro User like all the others.
But if I was in SmugMug's shoes, this is how my reasoning would justify a 15% commission on 'print credit'. A print credit should be thought of as a pre-paid gift card. You as the photographer have been paid say $50.00 for a gift card. You have therefore made $50.00 and your client can order $50.00 worth of prints. The client just paid you directly rather then pay SmugMug who then pays you.
From SmugMug's perspective, if the client had not paid you $50.00 first but instead just ordered $50.00 in prints first, they would get 15%.
So why should SmugMug loose 15% because the client choose to pay you directly for the prints and they do all the work of filling the order and communicating with the client if the client is dissatisfied in any way?
From a SmugMug customer, I have no problem with the Print Credit when thought of it in the terms described above.
DM
If I give a Print Credit to family/friends then the entire amount goes to processing with no 15% cut for SmugMug and no extra costs to me. Is that OK? It's OK for me:D , but I not trying to do something sneaky here that undermines the business model that keep SmugMug operating, you guys are great!!
However when gallery specific Print Credits come any pro can do this. Make a gallery with 0 markup, give out Print Credits for that gallery, with cost only pricing taken into account, and the entire amount of the PrintCredit goes to processing cost with no 15% cut for SmugMug an no extra costs for the pro. The problem with this is that then the pro would be exposing their costs to their customers.
I think what is being asked for here is a way to use Print Credits to give away prints at processing cost only (no 15% cut for SumgMug) without exposing the actual print costs to customers.
Is the reason Print Credits work the way that they do because in the future they will become like regular retail trade gift cards or is it because losing the %15 of the markup on pro Print Credits makes it not a viable business? Knowing this would make it easier to understand why Print Credits for pros are treated the same way as retail trade gift cards are...
http://www.danalphotos.com
http://www.pluralsight.com
http://twitter.com/d114
I was logged out.
J o s e p h S a l m i
P h o t o g r a p h y
Second, from what I'm reading, Print Credits assume that the photog got paid for the credit (as part of the package fee, what-have-you) - so think of their taking a 15% cut on Print Credits as SM's way of facilitating a "If you get paid, then we get paid", which is how they make their money to grow the business, add new features, pay for lawyers to fight patent trolls, etc. SM's 15% isn't a "tax", it's their share of the profits for helping you succeed in business.
That there are other ways for photogs to get around that 15% cut and keep it all for themselves (by charging direct and then buying the pics at cost and putting the customer's ship-to address on the order) is a given, but it violates the spirit of the relationship between SM and the photog.
Baldy's based his business decisions on most people 'doing the right thing', and hopefully his faith in people will be well-founded by most people not abusing the process.
Hmmm, not sure. The coupon entry box is on the top of the Payment Info screen with the next button for the customer to click is "Confirm Order". I'm not seeing it on your site either. Perhaps some parameters are not being met according to how the coupon is set up, i.e. order minimum, date, # of uses?
-Danny
dannyberryphotography.com
Facebook
I don't really consider that "getting around" the system or a violation of the spirit... Until less than a week ago it was the only way for a photog to charge a client directly, and it still requires the photog to collect and manually enter the order.
Print credits eliminate that burden, but cost 15% of the profit. I'm as cheap as they come, but it seems like an equitable trade to me.
I think there is a difference between a photog selling a Print Credit as a gift card and one who comp's a customer a some prints, thats all.
http://www.danalphotos.com
http://www.pluralsight.com
http://twitter.com/d114
I have 2 coupons and saved them but looking at the Pros tab it still says 0 active. Do I need to active them somewhere??? What does yours say?
J o s e p h S a l m i
P h o t o g r a p h y
Hi,
Please check the start date of your coupons. I don't think they are valid yet!
-Anne
SmugMug Support Hero
Yeah sorry if that wasn't clear. I was speculating about how useful a future feature might be if we added it.
-Anne
SmugMug Support Hero
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Wait, I don't think it undermines what SmugMug is trying to do... does it? After all, what we're talking about here is really no different from offering products at cost, which SmugMug certainly allows.
SmugMug is a service that I use to make a profit off my customers, and, as part of that deal, SmugMug gets a cut of my profit. I have no desire to undermine that relationship - it's fair and equitable.
But, if I decide to give my clients something through Smugmug without making a profit, SmugMug shouldn't get a cut -- essentially charging me a "tax" on profit I never made.
The system I was hoping for would allow for me to step out of that process - to allow customers the option to order their own items, while enabling me to pick up the at-cost tab. As you say, this ability to "gift stuff" would be handy, and there's certainly no obligation for SmugMug to create an easier system for easy "gifting" items at cost.
But, if I were in charge of SmugMug, I would try to give my Pros every tool possible for creating fantastic relationships with customers. That's what will keep me as a SmugMug Pro. I want ALL of the flexibility to make business decisions about giving items away for free (while paying the cost) or charging my clients the mark-up and happily giving SmugMug a cut. Those decisions don't undermine SmugMug - they should be the very essence of what SmugMug offers: flexibility and capability for Pros. Just my two cents, of course.
I agree completely with that. And maybe we should be talking about two different features; the latter one doesn't quite exist yet...
Matt Dudley Photography
Nashville child photographer
Twitter: @mattdudleyphoto
Facebook: facebook.com/mattdudleyphotography
Check what Anne said. It must be something with regards to a valid date.
-Danny
dannyberryphotography.com
Facebook
Yep, we'd be thrilled if print credits were useful to you on galleries for friends and family. We're not looking to make an extra cut on them, just the same as always, which is 15% of markup if there is any.
A pro could could certainly price their products lower, which would make the 15% cut SmugMug keeps smaller. It also makes their 85% smaller as well, obviously. That's just a business decision they'd have to make!
A $50 print credit means $50 out of pocket for you if you have at cost prices. It means less out of pocket if the customer spends it on products with a markup.
-Anne
SmugMug Support Hero
Well said. I think this gets to the heart of the matter.
The "gift card" argument falls apart in that manner. If a customer bought a $100 gift card for another customer, then I just made $100 profit and of course SmugMug deserves a cut. But if I give a $100 print credit to a customer, no one is paying me for that... so what is there to take a "cut" of? I understand that SM needs to make its money for order processing, etc., but I assume this is built into their pricing relationship with Bay and the other lab. Which is why we are allowed to purchase prints "at cost" in the first place.
I do see, however, that there are loopholes that are difficult to close. If SM offered both (a) gift cards with a 15% commission and (b) print comps at 0% commission, the photographer could create a loophole such that he charges the client $100 for a set number of prints and then not give SM its cut by treating it as a comp rather than a gift card. However, this is not much different than the current loophole of being able to buy prints at cost and charging the client separately.
I suppose this dovetails with the argument for package pricing -- the photographer may offer his wedding client ten 8x10s as part of his wedding package. Then the client need only choose his prints online and enter a certain code at checkout. This would work like a gift card, since presumably the client paid the photographer some amount of money for the wedding package, and SM can take its 15% commission on the prints.
http://loribrueseke.smugmug.com/