Ok..from the Rumors site..credit..
...
[*]There will be two different D800 versions/models, one with the antialiasing filter removed
[/LIST]
So walk me through the antialiasing filter. Must be a big deal to build a sister body with just that option removed
...
Probably more likely that it's just a rumor.
The Anti-Aliasing (AA) filter is one of 3 filters commonly used on Bayer class imagers, the most common type of camera imager. The purpose of the AA filter is to reduce the effects of "moiré" patterns and "aliasing", both of which are caused by the regular array of photo-sites interfering and interacting with patterned subjects and angled lines in the scene.
As photo-site density increases, the visible effects of moiré patterns and aliasing decrease. Eliminating the AA filter will increase available detail.
The AA filter is absent from cameras like the Leica M8, M9 and Sigma SD9 through SD1. As a result these cameras typically require less sharpening for equivalent detail at similar pixel densities.
If you are shooting organic landscapes, which typically lack straight lines and repeating patterns, you can get by without an AA filter. If you are shooting typical people shots, with architectural and man-made elements like fabrics and building edges and furniture, etc., an AA filter is generally a good thing.
If you are shooting organic landscapes, which typically lack straight lines and repeating patterns, you can get by without an AA filter.
If you are shooting typical people shots, with architectural and man-made elements like fabrics and building edges and furniture, etc., an AA filter is generally a good thing.
Sooo..if you are a landscape shooter you would buy a body without the filter..all the while knowing it would be inferior for everything else..
The more I know the less I know
Thanks Ziggy,
Gary
Nikon has never done anything more than assist in the design of the Sony sensors that they use in their cameras. Nikon does not own a silicon fab so they have no means to manufacture any sensors.
Sooo..if you are a landscape shooter you would buy a body without the filter..all the while knowing it would be inferior for everything else..
The more I know the less I know
Thanks Ziggy,
Gary
The "safest" strategy is to purchase a large sensor, high-resolution camera that has a relatively weak AA filter, if your interest is the best compromise between ultimate scene detail and lack of moiré patterns and few aliasing artifacts (very much IMO).
Remember that detail is also dependent upon using the very best lenses, so plan on using only the best Canon primes and Canon "L" lenses, Nikon "gold ring" lenses, ... you get the idea.
Of course, an interesting subject matter with proper and appropriate lighting trumps all of the preceding discussion, so use whatever you have for equipment and find those perfect subjects, in the perfect scenes and perfect compositions. Use the very best techniques and strategies for both acquisition and post-processing, and the resulting wonderful images are likely to be excused from the most extreme criticism.
It's easy to spot both good and bad photography, no matter what the equipment.
Well, in about two weeks, we will find out what Nikon has been up to. They say Nikon will make an announcement on the 26th, which coincides with the PDN Photoplus international conference expo here in NYC. I already have my convention pass.
Well, in about two weeks, we will find out what Nikon has been up to. They say Nikon will make an announcement on the 26th, which coincides with the PDN Photoplus international conference expo here in NYC. I already have my convention pass.
This may have been said/pointed out but I don't like a 36MP sensor is very likely at all. Resolving power explained. Personally I think 26MP is WAY above the power of average lenses, and may be scratching the limits of elite lenses.
This may have been said/pointed out but I don't like a 36MP sensor is very likely at all. Resolving power explained. Personally I think 26MP is WAY above the power of average lenses, and may be scratching the limits of elite lenses.
Yes, I think Matt touched on that point, but it bears repeating. Helps keep grounded to facts.
Well, in about two weeks, we will find out what Nikon has been up to. They say Nikon will make an announcement on the 26th, which coincides with the PDN Photoplus international conference expo here in NYC. I already have my convention pass.
This may have been said/pointed out but I don't like a 36MP sensor is very likely at all. Resolving power explained. Personally I think 26MP is WAY above the power of average lenses, and may be scratching the limits of elite lenses.
I agree with this and why the 36MP sensor is false, unless they also are coming up with optimized lenses. Pentax has this problem with its 645D and that there current lenses for MF will not resolve well enough for the sensor. When they released the camera they only had one optimized lens. So I dont see Nikon doing the same thing without a lens line up for the new sensor.
I agree with this and why the 36MP sensor is false, unless they also are coming up with optimized lenses. Pentax has this problem with its 645D and that there current lenses for MF will not resolve well enough for the sensor. When they released the camera they only had one optimized lens. So I dont see Nikon doing the same thing without a lens line up for the new sensor.
I'm no expert on nikon lenses, but surely 36MP isn't much higher resolution that the 24MP camera they already make. I'm not sure that the difference would be so great that a whole new set of lenses would be required.
I'm as much a gear-head as anyone, but I've done some of my best work with my D70....though I now primarily use my D200 and D300. I guess I'm trying to stay centered and focus on what counts (to me). I really shouldn't even be in the gear forum...camera/lens lust is expensive and I clearly have nothing to add. Moving on now.....
0
Matthew SavilleRegistered Users, Retired ModPosts: 3,352Major grins
I'm as much a gear-head as anyone, but I've done some of my best work with my D70....though I now primarily use my D200 and D300. I guess I'm trying to stay centered and focus on what counts (to me). I really shouldn't even be in the gear forum...camera/lens lust is expensive and I clearly have nothing to add. Moving on now.....
I feel this exact sentiment quite often, actually. I have some fond memories using a D70 and a random 17mm f/3.5 Tokina lens I got on Ebay or KEH... It certainly doesn't matter what equipment you use, as long as you enjoy what you shoot. But hopefully of course, we all save up eventually and we actually get to consider something new. Which is fun, at least for the camera geek part of us. Just part of the cycle...
I agree with this and why the 36MP sensor is false, unless they also are coming up with optimized lenses. Pentax has this problem with its 645D and that there current lenses for MF will not resolve well enough for the sensor. When they released the camera they only had one optimized lens. So I dont see Nikon doing the same thing without a lens line up for the new sensor.
Unfortunately, if you think about it we're headed in the 30+ direction one way or another. Canon already has two 21 megapixel full-frame cameras, and two (?) 18 megapixel crop-sensor cameras. Sony has two 24 megapixel cameras, Nikon's at 24, ...and most all of these cameras are 2-3 years old.
Do we honestly think that Canon will "ONLY" jump from 21 to 26 or 28 megapixels? Nobody would buy that camera, unless it had significant improvements in other areas. Neither do I think that Nikon or Sony will set their sights at just 2-4 megapixels above their 24 megapixel sensor.
It is unfortunate, that everyone feels so competitive in the megapixel department. I would be perfectly happy with just a 12 megapixel camera for casual shooting and most work, and maybe a 24 megapixel camera for ridiculous landscapes and big-print portraits. Oh well! Again, like I've said before, as long as Nikon develops a good quality sRAW format, I don't care how high they go with their megapixels...
Looks like the new Nikon pricing will take effect before the big dog comes out. I bought my lenses just in time..(for a change).
Also from the rumors site Cannon will be coming out with a new 1D full frame.
From the motorcycle front all of the new 2012 bikes are being announced now also...I love this time of year
Gary
Regarding large pixel count imagers, I already mentioned that high pixel densities allow for a less strong AA filter. That is a real and tangible benefit.
Another tangible benefit of high-density sensors is that the colors and tonalities can be more accurate and provide a smoother gradation, compared to lower pixel densities and lower pixel counts in general.
The reason for smoother and more accurate results comes from the fact that all Bayer type imagers have a single color filter over each photosite (pixel). Typically these are R, G and B filters and they are distributed in an R-G-B-G pattern or variant. That means that each photosite only receives partial color information and partial luminance information. In fact, only 25 percent of the pixels are blue and another 25 percent are red. Green photosites represent 50 percent of the photosites. (Green sensitivity closely matches human luminance sensitivity.)
So how is full color information derived from this Bayer "mosaic" of data?
Each Bayer based camera only records the Bayer data mosaic, which is then interpreted by a "de-mosaicing" algorithm. In order to accurately interpret blue information accurately it really requires 4 pixels of data for each pixel of printed/displayed information; same for the red data. Green data can be acquired for every 2 pixels, as is most of the luminance data.
High pixel count Bayer imagers provide the extra "crop" of data needed to accurately "harvest" and display more accurate color and luminance information. Since most of the detail "and" tone information comes from the luminance channel, this results in the greater detail and smoother tones that are a direct and tangible benefit of more data. The extra color information is also a benefit, but human color sensitivity is much less refined than the detail and tone sensitivities, so we "see" less of that benefit.
Of course, it's not all beneficial. Higher pixel densities generally come with reduced Signal/Noise Ratios (SNR), meaning more visible noise at the individual pixel level. Higher noise levels may not be as visible at low ISOs and especially at normal print and display sizes, but at higher ISOs it can obscure image detail as well as affect tone and color.
Fortunately, most of the camera companies have some extra tricks up their collective sleeves, like back-illuminated CMOS, already used for many small sensors like the smaller P&S cameras and cell phone imagers. There is also an RGB-W imager technology that shows great promise for improving SNR and high-ISO noise.
We live in a wonderful time, from a photographic perspective, and it just keeps getting better.
not sure Ziggy if that is also going to apply to affordability?!:cry
but thanks for the beautiful precis on imager tech!
Neil
dSLRs have been trending towards much greater affordability.
In 1995 my employer bought a new Kodak DCS460 dSLR for $16,000USD. It was a 6MPix imager and had basically one ISO. It was revolutionary for its time. (They costed out the camera in less than 2 years in film/processing cost savings, but I was still using that camera in 2004, partly because it cost so much new that the owners were trying to milk it as much as possible.)
In 2000 the Canon D30 was introduced as the first affordable, relatively compact, relatively high-quality, APS-C sensor camera for around $3000 (but that price dropped fairly quickly).
In 2002 Nikon introduced the D100 and Canon introduced the D60, both of which were arguably much better than the Canon D30, and they both cost less too, in the low $2000s. They, along with the Fuji S2 Pro, turned the photographic world on its collective ear. Finally, a lot of "every people" could afford a very well featured dSLR body.
Now you can buy much better featured dSLRs for less money than the Nikon D100, Canon D60 or Fuji S2 Pro prices, and much, much better (the FF 135 format lower tier bodies) for around the Canon D30 price.
The only reason that prices are spiking recently is because of a supply/demand imbalance and a very strong Yen. Otherwise cameras are extremely affordable by any practical measure. My favorite off-brand of soft drink has gone up by 50% in the last 3 years, by comparison. Now "that" hurts.
...Now, 36 megapixels in a DSLR? Good grief, I dunno if there are more than a half-dozen lenses in the lineup that can resolve that much!
=Matt=
Over in the 1Ds thread your reasoning was that such high mp count is already
reality in todays crop cameras which are not out resolved by many lenses.
The resolving power is a problem is the image corners on fullframe and not
in the center where the sweet spot for aps-c and aps-h cameras is.
So yea, I have to agree with your reasoning in this thread
“To consult the rules of composition before making a picture is a little like consulting the law of gravitation before going for a walk.”
― Edward Weston
Since it was rumored to have been released several times this year, I will no longer believe rumors or pictures until it is actually released and is on the vendor's website. Too many dashed hopes...
Matthew SavilleRegistered Users, Retired ModPosts: 3,352Major grins
edited November 20, 2011
The new leaked images have got to be fake, I'm 100% certain. I've posted my reasons in greater detail in their latest thread, but the bottom line is that Nikon simply wouldn't put a "rec" button right there on the top of the camera. Even if they were to add a video record button, it would be on the back. From the Nikon D7000 to the Canon 7D and even the 1DX, ...the "rec" button is on the back.
So, I say bogus. The D800 may certainly be coming, but that isn't it.
I'm still betting that we'll see the D4 next instead, and that it will be 16-18 megapixels. After that I don't know which camera will come next, maybe a 36 megapixel behemoth. However at SOME point, I'm 100% positive that we'll see "an affordable version of the D4"... And that is what I hope for. A camera that still photographers can get TRULY excited about, compared to the already near-perfect D700.
Because honestly, what WOULD get me to upgrade from my D700, as a working professional? Not megapixels, and not video. Simply put, I want AF improvements and I want dual card slots. (Slight ISO improvements would be par for the course, of course.)
As it is, if they were to release this D800 with it's current feature layout, I would hands-down be buying a 2nd D700 and saving for a used D3s. If I need megapixels for my landsdcape hobby, I'll buy a D7000 or it's successor.
These photos are definitely fake, the red insert on the camera grip is off and the camera itself looks too small to begin with.
More than likely Nikon will introduce the D4 some time in the winter with the availability in the spring. Nikon needs to bring a new flagship camera to the Summer Olympics next year.
Nikon D800, Pentax K1000
You don't take a photograph, you make it. ~Ansel Adams
Comments
Personally, I wanted a 25mp sensor but now the idea of a 36mp is getting attractive. I will have to upgrade to a even faster computer soon, I would image doing post-processing on a 4 core chip might be a little slow. I will probably have to upgrade to a 8 core chip and quattro card next year (more OT at work...
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr3-36-megapixel-sensor-for-one-of-the-fullframe-prototypes/
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr4-sony-ff-with-36-megapixel-sensor-coming-early-2012-nikon-d800-with-same-sensor/
http://www.youtube.com/user/NYCFilmmakersGroup
http://www.meetup.com/NYC-Filmmakers-and-Actors-Meetup-Group/
http://nikonrumors.com/
- The name will be Nikon D800
- 36MP sensor
- 100% viewfinder coverage
- Improved AF with face recognition – the D800 will still have 51 points AF point
- Dual memory card slots (still not sure if they will be SD, CF or both)
- USB 3.0
- ISO range: 100 – 6400, ISO LO @ 50 and ISO HI-2 @ 25600
- The screen will be larger than 3 inches
- The D800 will not have built-in GPS
- Expeed 3 processor
- There will be two different D800 versions/models, one with the antialiasing filter removed
So walk me through the antialiasing filter. Must be a big deal to build a sister body with just that option removedGary
Read more on NikonRumors.com: http://nikonrumors.com/#ixzz1aNdq6uDc
Probably more likely that it's just a rumor.
The Anti-Aliasing (AA) filter is one of 3 filters commonly used on Bayer class imagers, the most common type of camera imager. The purpose of the AA filter is to reduce the effects of "moiré" patterns and "aliasing", both of which are caused by the regular array of photo-sites interfering and interacting with patterned subjects and angled lines in the scene.
(More information here and here.)
As photo-site density increases, the visible effects of moiré patterns and aliasing decrease. Eliminating the AA filter will increase available detail.
The AA filter is absent from cameras like the Leica M8, M9 and Sigma SD9 through SD1. As a result these cameras typically require less sharpening for equivalent detail at similar pixel densities.
If you are shooting organic landscapes, which typically lack straight lines and repeating patterns, you can get by without an AA filter. If you are shooting typical people shots, with architectural and man-made elements like fabrics and building edges and furniture, etc., an AA filter is generally a good thing.
Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
The more I know the less I know
Thanks Ziggy,
Gary
Nikon has never done anything more than assist in the design of the Sony sensors that they use in their cameras. Nikon does not own a silicon fab so they have no means to manufacture any sensors.
The "safest" strategy is to purchase a large sensor, high-resolution camera that has a relatively weak AA filter, if your interest is the best compromise between ultimate scene detail and lack of moiré patterns and few aliasing artifacts (very much IMO).
Remember that detail is also dependent upon using the very best lenses, so plan on using only the best Canon primes and Canon "L" lenses, Nikon "gold ring" lenses, ... you get the idea.
Of course, an interesting subject matter with proper and appropriate lighting trumps all of the preceding discussion, so use whatever you have for equipment and find those perfect subjects, in the perfect scenes and perfect compositions. Use the very best techniques and strategies for both acquisition and post-processing, and the resulting wonderful images are likely to be excused from the most extreme criticism.
It's easy to spot both good and bad photography, no matter what the equipment.
Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
http://www.youtube.com/user/NYCFilmmakersGroup
http://www.meetup.com/NYC-Filmmakers-and-Actors-Meetup-Group/
Cool.
Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
Yes, I think Matt touched on that point, but it bears repeating. Helps keep grounded to facts.
Neil
http://www.behance.net/brosepix
Hey, how about some (still) coverage for us?
http://joves.smugmug.com/
I'm no expert on nikon lenses, but surely 36MP isn't much higher resolution that the 24MP camera they already make. I'm not sure that the difference would be so great that a whole new set of lenses would be required.
=Matt=
My SmugMug Portfolio • My Astro-Landscape Photo Blog • Dgrin Weddings Forum
Do we honestly think that Canon will "ONLY" jump from 21 to 26 or 28 megapixels? Nobody would buy that camera, unless it had significant improvements in other areas. Neither do I think that Nikon or Sony will set their sights at just 2-4 megapixels above their 24 megapixel sensor.
It is unfortunate, that everyone feels so competitive in the megapixel department. I would be perfectly happy with just a 12 megapixel camera for casual shooting and most work, and maybe a 24 megapixel camera for ridiculous landscapes and big-print portraits. Oh well! Again, like I've said before, as long as Nikon develops a good quality sRAW format, I don't care how high they go with their megapixels...
=Matt=
My SmugMug Portfolio • My Astro-Landscape Photo Blog • Dgrin Weddings Forum
Also from the rumors site Cannon will be coming out with a new 1D full frame.
From the motorcycle front all of the new 2012 bikes are being announced now also...I love this time of year
Gary
http://dgrin.com/showpost.php?p=1683677&postcount=64
Another tangible benefit of high-density sensors is that the colors and tonalities can be more accurate and provide a smoother gradation, compared to lower pixel densities and lower pixel counts in general.
The reason for smoother and more accurate results comes from the fact that all Bayer type imagers have a single color filter over each photosite (pixel). Typically these are R, G and B filters and they are distributed in an R-G-B-G pattern or variant. That means that each photosite only receives partial color information and partial luminance information. In fact, only 25 percent of the pixels are blue and another 25 percent are red. Green photosites represent 50 percent of the photosites. (Green sensitivity closely matches human luminance sensitivity.)
So how is full color information derived from this Bayer "mosaic" of data?
Each Bayer based camera only records the Bayer data mosaic, which is then interpreted by a "de-mosaicing" algorithm. In order to accurately interpret blue information accurately it really requires 4 pixels of data for each pixel of printed/displayed information; same for the red data. Green data can be acquired for every 2 pixels, as is most of the luminance data.
High pixel count Bayer imagers provide the extra "crop" of data needed to accurately "harvest" and display more accurate color and luminance information. Since most of the detail "and" tone information comes from the luminance channel, this results in the greater detail and smoother tones that are a direct and tangible benefit of more data. The extra color information is also a benefit, but human color sensitivity is much less refined than the detail and tone sensitivities, so we "see" less of that benefit.
Of course, it's not all beneficial. Higher pixel densities generally come with reduced Signal/Noise Ratios (SNR), meaning more visible noise at the individual pixel level. Higher noise levels may not be as visible at low ISOs and especially at normal print and display sizes, but at higher ISOs it can obscure image detail as well as affect tone and color.
Fortunately, most of the camera companies have some extra tricks up their collective sleeves, like back-illuminated CMOS, already used for many small sensors like the smaller P&S cameras and cell phone imagers. There is also an RGB-W imager technology that shows great promise for improving SNR and high-ISO noise.
We live in a wonderful time, from a photographic perspective, and it just keeps getting better.
Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
not sure Ziggy if that is also going to apply to affordability?!:cry
but thanks for the beautiful precis on imager tech!
Neil
http://www.behance.net/brosepix
dSLRs have been trending towards much greater affordability.
In 1995 my employer bought a new Kodak DCS460 dSLR for $16,000USD. It was a 6MPix imager and had basically one ISO. It was revolutionary for its time. (They costed out the camera in less than 2 years in film/processing cost savings, but I was still using that camera in 2004, partly because it cost so much new that the owners were trying to milk it as much as possible.)
In 2000 the Canon D30 was introduced as the first affordable, relatively compact, relatively high-quality, APS-C sensor camera for around $3000 (but that price dropped fairly quickly).
In 2002 Nikon introduced the D100 and Canon introduced the D60, both of which were arguably much better than the Canon D30, and they both cost less too, in the low $2000s. They, along with the Fuji S2 Pro, turned the photographic world on its collective ear. Finally, a lot of "every people" could afford a very well featured dSLR body.
Now you can buy much better featured dSLRs for less money than the Nikon D100, Canon D60 or Fuji S2 Pro prices, and much, much better (the FF 135 format lower tier bodies) for around the Canon D30 price.
The only reason that prices are spiking recently is because of a supply/demand imbalance and a very strong Yen. Otherwise cameras are extremely affordable by any practical measure. My favorite off-brand of soft drink has gone up by 50% in the last 3 years, by comparison. Now "that" hurts.
Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
http://www.youtube.com/user/NYCFilmmakersGroup
http://www.meetup.com/NYC-Filmmakers-and-Actors-Meetup-Group/
That is the most classic post I have ever read.
Over in the 1Ds thread your reasoning was that such high mp count is already
reality in todays crop cameras which are not out resolved by many lenses.
The resolving power is a problem is the image corners on fullframe and not
in the center where the sweet spot for aps-c and aps-h cameras is.
So yea, I have to agree with your reasoning in this thread
― Edward Weston
http://nikonrumors.com/2011/10/19/the-situation-in-thailand-doesnt-look-good-for-nikon.aspx/#more-24138
http://www.youtube.com/user/NYCFilmmakersGroup
http://www.meetup.com/NYC-Filmmakers-and-Actors-Meetup-Group/
http://nikonrumors.com/2011/11/19/breaking-i-have-pictures-of-the-nikon-d800.aspx/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+NikonRumors+%28NikonRumors.com%29&utm_content=FaceBook
EDIT:
More info
http://nikonrumors.com/2011/11/19/ladies-and-gentleman-i-present-to-you-the-nikon-d800.aspx/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+NikonRumors+%28NikonRumors.com%29&utm_content=FaceBook
You don't take a photograph, you make it. ~Ansel Adams
Blue Moon Originals
http://www.youtube.com/user/NYCFilmmakersGroup
http://www.meetup.com/NYC-Filmmakers-and-Actors-Meetup-Group/
So, I say bogus. The D800 may certainly be coming, but that isn't it.
I'm still betting that we'll see the D4 next instead, and that it will be 16-18 megapixels. After that I don't know which camera will come next, maybe a 36 megapixel behemoth. However at SOME point, I'm 100% positive that we'll see "an affordable version of the D4"... And that is what I hope for. A camera that still photographers can get TRULY excited about, compared to the already near-perfect D700.
Because honestly, what WOULD get me to upgrade from my D700, as a working professional? Not megapixels, and not video. Simply put, I want AF improvements and I want dual card slots. (Slight ISO improvements would be par for the course, of course.)
As it is, if they were to release this D800 with it's current feature layout, I would hands-down be buying a 2nd D700 and saving for a used D3s. If I need megapixels for my landsdcape hobby, I'll buy a D7000 or it's successor.
=Matt=
My SmugMug Portfolio • My Astro-Landscape Photo Blog • Dgrin Weddings Forum
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More than likely Nikon will introduce the D4 some time in the winter with the availability in the spring. Nikon needs to bring a new flagship camera to the Summer Olympics next year.
You don't take a photograph, you make it. ~Ansel Adams
Blue Moon Originals