Feedback and comments

divamum · November 18, 2011

Howdy folks...

Just some musings. I've found it a bit disappointing to come back to the Challenges after a hiatus and see so little discussion of the images, particularly those in the galleries. There are a few regulars who post for and/or give feedback, but even that is a small percentage of the entry field, it seems . I've alluded to this a couple of times, I know, but this round in particular it seems that there's just such a dearth of comments!

It seems to me that there's always a fair number of "attaboy" "great shot" comments for the most popular/successful shots, but that people aren't always adding their views on the less-successful images. Which are probably the ones that need it most!!

Speaking for myself, I learn far more from constructive criticism than from the ego-boost of "what a great shot" (nice though it may be to have that when warranted!

). In a big round, I can of course understand it's not possible to find time to go through an entire gallery, but when the numbers are lighter.... :dunno

I guess I'm just wondering why people aren't contributing so much in this way any more (a few are, I know, which I sure appreciate!). Worried about offending? Not sure how to say "this image sucks" in a constructive way? No time? Not sure if it's ok to post less-than-positive comments?

In any case, just thought it was worth opening the discussion on this. Speaking for myself, the comments are the MOST important part of the Challenges, and I really miss the Enthusiasticke Inputte Of Olde...

kwickers · November 18, 2011

so little discussion of the images, particularly those in the galleries

I like to see comments both in the threads where people ask for them and in the Galleries. I agree constructive criticism has challenged me to improve a shot or tweak some aspect of the image I overlooked. I also enjoy knowing other people's thoughts on the other images. If an entry to a contest is ONLY posted in the Gallery I hesitate sometimes to comment, or I wait until it is near the end of the challenge period. I guess what I'm hearing is we should go ahead and post our thoughts frequently on all images for all of us to benefit.

Jeffro · November 18, 2011

I like the comments too, good or bad. Truth be known I was a bit disappointed in how my entry for Mega 14 did, I didn't want to do something was obvious to the theme, so I went out of the box a bit. It would be nice to know what was liked or disliked about it. First thing I did this morning was see who won, then comment on all the entries. I like to keep my comments to myself until after the competition, I mean it is a competition after all.

One thing I'd like to see change in these competitions is once you've entered a photo to the gallery it stays there, no adding more and asking for the other one or ones to be deleted. If you're not sure of your entry, don't enter it until the end of the contest.

WhatSheSaw · November 18, 2011

Diva, I agree. Comments are what keep me coming back to the challenges. They really drive the learning process. For me, the issue has been time. I am especially hard pressed during the week. By the time the weekend rolls around, most people are on to the next challenge. I think I will try commenting on Sunday night before the challenge closes. Then I will have only a few to comment on after the challenge closes.

I continue to enter the challenges, because I want to keep them alive, even when I don't have the time to put out my best effort or to comment much.

WhatSheSaw · November 18, 2011

Jeffro wrote: »

One thing I'd like to see change in these competitions is once you've entered a photo to the gallery it stays there, no adding more and asking for the other one or ones to be deleted. If you're not sure of your entry, don't enter it until the end of the contest.

Ha! I am never sure of my entry and I often enter late in the challenge period.

Sometimes, I want to be sure that my entry gets in in time. So I enter it, then tweak, then re-enter.

Jeffro · November 18, 2011

WhatSheSaw wrote: »

Ha! I am never sure of my entry and I often enter late in the challenge period. Sometimes, I want to be sure that my entry gets in in time. So I enter it, then tweak, then re-enter.

:giggle Well you're not the only one, there were multiples in this round. I just think it should be one of those things where, once you're in, you're in. You can always change things, but that doesn't mean it was the right thing to do.

Kinkajou · November 18, 2011

I agree... I haven't been participating in the last year or so because I felt that something has changed in the vibe of the challenges... I can't put my finger on it, though. Maybe it had something to do with the old system where two judges would review/critique images and give the rest of us a sense of what to work towards (as well as provide an example of how to critique)... I'm not sure. I grew a TON from the Enthusiasticke Inputte Of Olde and it helped shaped the photog I am today. I'd love to get back to that so we can all keep growing together.

Sherstone? Thoughts?

sapphire73 · November 18, 2011

divamum wrote: »

I've found it a bit disappointing to come back to the Challenges after a hiatus and see so little discussion of the images, particularly those in the galleries. There are a few regulars who post for and/or give feedback, but even that is a small percentage of the entry field, it seems. I've alluded to this a couple of times, I know, but this round in particular it seems that there's just such a dearth of comments!

I totally agree with you on how helpful making comments can be for the reviewer as well as the photographers - especially if they are thoughtful comments offering some specifics. The last time this came up (in the general thread), I shared some links that I thought might be helpful to those who are relatively new to this kind of thing - like myself. (Can't find them now....)

We all know that "life happens" and can get in the way of commenting every time. But if enough of us are making the effort, it helps even things out. I also know that it can be discouraging to be one of the few making comments on the gallery (as I was last time). I appreciate the time and effort you took to make thoughtful comments on every photo in both galleries! It was helpful that you gave input on each photo on its own merits and in relation to the theme.

For me, it was a matter of time with this round. (I get so behind at work when I travel overseas.) But I also found myself in a bit of a muddle with the early shots. Some (outdoor) shots were titled in a way that said "early morning" but were taken later in the day. Nothing to say folks can't do that but it's not my cup of tea. So it brought home the diversity of perspectives that enriches these galleries and can make one a bit more "tongue-tied" when commenting.

[Does this whole discussion belong in the general thread, btw?]

kwickers wrote: »

I wait until it is near the end of the challenge period. I guess what I'm hearing is we should go ahead and post our thoughts frequently on all images for all of us to benefit.

I tend to wait to the end of the challenge period as well - especially if I might offer something along the lines of constructive criticism. That's just what I'm more comfortable doing, not a suggestion for all.

For those who haven't seen this before, here is a blog post by Travis Owney on "Why Enter a Photo Contest" which is pertinent to this discussion.

A few other thoughts:
- We seem to have a lot of new participants and/or folks returning or stopping by. I wonder whether it might be useful to touch on this kind of thing periodically? I remember having several aha moments during previous discussions.
- Would it be fun/helpful to have a dgrin introduction thread perhaps? Inviting people to introduce themselves at some point? Or just let this happen naturally as it does now?

Gretchen

lkbart · November 18, 2011

I agree with you all. The comments really help me to see what I otherwise would miss - not just in my shots, but in all the entries. We can all gain insight from the perspective of others. I only got into the challenges at the end of the 2 judge era, but what I noticed then was that the two judges mostly commented on the photos they chose for the final round and usually didn't comment on the other shots (although some did), which as mentioned above, are probably the ones that need the constructive comments more than the better shots that got into the final round. BTW divamum, I also appreciate all your comments this time around.

We all have time constraints, some more than others, & I applaud those who do take the time to enter comments regularly (I would also like to be one of those, but life intervenes). Many times I find it hard to comment on a photo for various reasons, but after a previous discussion on comments a few months ago, I have tried to comment on all the photos in the next round when I have earned a top 5 honor. I look at it in a similar manner as the 2 judge system - seems like it was the 2 previous winners who were to comment on the next round & choose finalists, right?

If we are looking for suggestions, we could encourage the top 5 in the previous round to comment on all the shots in the next round - the winners should think of it as giving back to the community that voted their shot into the top 5 & earned them the awards from Smugmug.

sapphire73 · November 18, 2011

lkbart wrote: »

If we are looking for suggestions, we could encourage the top 5 in the previous round to comment on all the shots in the next round - the winners should think of it as giving back to the community that voted their shot into the top 5 & earned them the awards from Smugmug.

Hi Lillian, I like this idea and will try to follow through this next round.

Gretchen

P.S. Your thoughtful commentary is much appreciated when you do have time to jump in and comment!

sweetharmony · November 18, 2011

I LOVE seeing this brought up again! When I first started with the challenges 1 1/2 years ago or so, we we were still doing the "can't collect a prize until you've critiqued, with two judges participating." Can't say enough about how much I learned doing the critiques! It was indeed not easy and did take quite a bit of time. But I have no regrets. I see no problem making it a condition of the prize. And I think that making the critique required is the ONLY way you're going to get comments on some of the less-strong entries.

That being said, this ties into one of my only problems with the challenges....
Say for instance, like me in this recent Mega, you enter an image and receive criticism less than shining (even if deserved) prior to the judging, it feels as if you've been quite publicly labeled as "not worthy." Who knows, maybe someone else looked at the photo and saw what I saw with it and didn't comment with a positive comment? And to me, as the photographer, defending the photo within the gallery doesn't seem quite like the right thing to do here.....or at least, you don't really see people doing it. Wish you did, though, because then you'd learn more about why the photographer chose to enter the particular photo. So, anyway, if you're photo gets a harsher critique, you kind of have to take the hit. The negative critique has to effect the outcome of the final vote. And so does gushing for popular photos. All of a sudden, 6 people love it so I probably should too, even if I hadn't really noticed at first. Feels a bit "high school popularity contest." Which leads me to this:
1. What if critique was allowed only after the voting? If you loved it/ hated it before the contest, you'll still feel the same after the contest. The concern is that people would then never get around to it, but if it is required by someone (such as previous winners), well, then, at least there'd be something to start the conversation.
2. What if there were a few basic critique guidelines? An example would be (and this might be silly, but I think it would work) encouraging critiquers to always use the word "because" in their critique. Another example would be to leave a critique open-ended, encouraging response from the entrant.....
3. Or, perhaps, just leave the critique out of the gallery and keep it on the forums........the idea of the "Enthusiasticke Inputte Of Olde..." sounds swell......

sapphire73 · November 18, 2011

Jeffro wrote: »

One thing I'd like to see change in these competitions is once you've entered a photo to the gallery it stays there, no adding more and asking for the other one or ones to be deleted. If you're not sure of your entry, don't enter it until the end of the contest.

I can see your point but see advantages to the current system. Sometimes we enter the shot we like best but also ask for input in a thread. If someone suggests cropping it differently or using a different shot, it's nice to be able to switch out your entry. Ironically, I used to wait to post an entry until after getting input in a thread but have started "going with my gut" for an entry and then asking for input - sort of as a way to work on "finding my voice" as a photographer, if that makes any sense.

I also find it very helpful to have a heads up on the direction others are going so that I don't inadvertently work on the same idea, possibly spending hours shooting and processing, and then find the idea "taken" by another. (I experienced a few of those and I'm sure others have as well!) So I tend to look at it as a courtesy to others to share your idea in a thread or by entering the shot you think are going to use. Much more productive!

That said, if we adopt the one entry and no changes idea, I'll live with it as long as it doesn't make more work for Sean. As in, people making a mistake in their user name, title, or exif data and not being able to correct it themselves or being disqualified. The busier we are, the easier it is to make a mistake.

Cheers,
Gretchen

CHANDLERJA · November 18, 2011

"1. What if critique was allowed only after the voting? If you loved it/ hated it before the contest, you'll still feel the same after the contest. The concern is that people would then never get around to it, but if it is required by someone (such as previous winners), well, then, at least there'd be something to start the conversation."

I like this idea myself. I haven't been real good lately on commenting due to my current workload. But I like the idea of no critiquing good or bad during the voting.

That being said I will try harder in the future to add my thoughts about entries for what they will be worth

VisualXpressions · November 18, 2011

Sometimes I just don't like the image and I couldn't say how I would improve it because I wouldn't shoot it...

Technically speaking I hesitate to give technique type feedback because I might be telling them something they already know and I'm afraid I would insult their intelligence...

VisualXpressions · November 18, 2011

Jeffro wrote: »

I like the comments too, good or bad. Truth be known I was a bit disappointed in how my entry for Mega 14 did, I didn't want to do something was obvious to the theme, so I went out of the box a bit. It would be nice to know what was liked or disliked about it. First thing I did this morning was see who won, then comment on all the entries. I like to keep my comments to myself until after the competition, I mean it is a competition after all.

One thing I'd like to see change in these competitions is once you've entered a photo to the gallery it stays there, no adding more and asking for the other one or ones to be deleted. If you're not sure of your entry, don't enter it until the end of the contest.

Jeff,

The only thing I liked about your entry was the caption, I thought it was hilarious... the shot though, was just gross, didn't appeal to me at all... and I couldn't tell you how to make it better because I wouldn't shoot it... sorry

slpollett · November 18, 2011

To me, the best part of these challenges has always been reading the comments and learning from the critique and input from others. Even when I'm not entering, I still read the c&c on the images that are submitted. I prefer to read the comments in the individual threads because that's where the real 'help' is found. The gallery comments tend to be the 'attaboys' and though may be interesting to read, aren't that helpful to a newbie (or to anyone just trying to learn and improve). I do find it really interesting to see the images that do get the most 'great job' comments, especially that so many of the times the images that everyone else tends to like the most are usually the ones that I like the least. I always try to figure out what it is that everyone sees but me. I guess I'm just weird or something (lol).

As much as I like to read all the comments, I'm not so good at leaving great comments. Often, I don't have enough time right then and think I'll come back later and enter a comment, but never make it back. Usually though, I find it hard to put into words WHY I like or dislike an image. Sometimes the subject of an image just doesn't appeal to me. The picture may be technically perfect, but I'm just not interested in the subject. I kind of hate to leave a comment that says that. I don't think it's really helpful.

I haven't been very active in the challenges in a while, but hope to start playing again--maybe this round. August-November is my busiest time of the year at work, plus my daughter is in marching band and our schedules are just crazy with football games and marching contests. Once that ends, the holidays are upon us and life just doesn't slow down. It is hard for me to find time to enter comments during this time of year, much less actually participate! That said, that's really just an excuse for why I quit participating. A few times, the subject just didn't interest me, but really the main reason I quit entering was the lack of feedback. I'm one of those who rarely received comments--good or bad. There are a couple of wonderful folks here that take the time to comment for almost everyone and I always appreciated those so much, but usually my images were ignored. I felt like it didn't matter what I did, I just wasn't getting any better and I didn't know what to 'fix.' I really got pretty discouraged. It just wasn't fun anymore and I felt like I'd never be able to please this group. I'd never be creative enough. I'd never improve. I'd never be good enough. I didn't want to even try anymore.

I actually did put my dSLR camera aside for a little while and just shot with a little point & shoot. Just little snapshots of whatever. I think I'm just about ready to try my hand at a challenge again, maybe.

The point of all this ramble is that feedback IS important--especially to the people who aren't getting all the accolades. If we are all here to improve, honest critique (doesn't have to be mean-spirited) is needed for all images. All of us (including me) will just have to make more of an effort to get it done.

Thanks for listening & thanks Divamum for bringing up the subject.

Sherry

divamum · November 18, 2011

Oh, SO glad I didn't open a can of worms (well, at least not in the bad way!), and to see such wonderful responses. Thanks, guys

I too prefer to leave comments as late as possible, ideally after the judging. Can I suggest (Sherstone, see what you think of this idea), that the comments fields are disabled until the poll has closed? Just a thought - might be too complicated (or people might feel it's not "worth it" once the voting has passed), but just a suggestion for consideration.

I agree... I haven't been participating in the last year or so because I felt that something has changed in the vibe of the challenges... I can't put my finger on it, though. Maybe it had something to do with the old system where two judges would review/critique images and give the rest of us a sense of what to work towards (as well as provide an example of how to critique)...

I think you've said exactly what I've been feeling, Kristin

. I know that finding judges turned into a huge pain for TPTB so I'm not surprised they tried to simplify things. Perhaps even if they aren't "judges" per se, previous winners could still be prevailed upon to provide feedback for the next challenge as a condition of their win? Again, may not be practical, but just a suggestion.

Great discussion, guys

sapphire73 · November 18, 2011

divamum wrote: »

Can I suggest (Sherstone, see what you think of this idea), that the comments fields are disabled until the poll has closed? Just a thought - might be too complicated (or people might feel it's not "worth it" once the voting has passed), but just a suggestion for consideration.

I think we asked Sean about this the last time we discussed the dearth of comments and it was too complicated, but perhaps that was one of the other suggestions.... We could post a gallery wide comment at the beginning asking people to hold off on commenting until the voting ends and ask Sean to include this idea when posting a new challenge - if there is consensus around this idea.

Also in an earlier discussion, Froch shared his system of keeping a running document of comments that he could then copy and paste into the gallery. That gives one the ability to start commenting when an entry hits the gallery but hold off on posting. It could be less overwhelming than trying do this all at once. [Froch, please feel free to correct or expand this....]

I think folks would come to check the gallery comments even if we waited until after the voting.

slpollett wrote: »

To me, the best part of these challenges has always been reading the comments and learning from the critique and input from others. Even when I'm not entering, I still read the c&c on the images that are submitted. I prefer to read the comments in the individual threads because that's where the real 'help' is found.

A big thanks to all who take time to comment on the individual threads! I agree with Sherry that this is extremely helpful!

Gretchen

Jeffro · November 18, 2011

VisualXpressions wrote: »

Jeff,

The only thing I liked about your entry was the caption, I thought it was hilarious... the shot though, was just gross, didn't appeal to me at all... and I couldn't tell you how to make it better because I wouldn't shoot it... sorry

You don't have to be sorry, but posting your comments in the gallery would have made more sense.

ps......it was just water, not urine.

Froch · November 18, 2011

Thank you DM

Jenn · November 18, 2011

I'd just like to get better at this. I look at a photo and I just think .."I like it" or "Don't like it". I'm not really sure what other people like, so I rarely get good reviews on my photos. I'd like to know what you guys like or what you think constitutes a good photo so I can do *that*...

PedalGirl · November 18, 2011

LMAO at Jeffro's comment!! IMO I don't really think anything needs to be changed in regards to how the challenges are run... we all just need to make more of an effort to leave comments. I'm guilty of reading most posts but not always commenting... sometimes I'm at work and just checking in and sometimes I'm not sure what to say. You know... sometimes I really like something and I'll say so, but I might not really be able to articulate why I like it. And sometimes something just doesn't speak to me and I don't know why... so I might be silent on that. I will make more of an effort to be more involved and better my comments. I know what it's like to put something up and it's ignored... and you think "wow! did it suck that bad?"

kwickers · November 18, 2011

I think it would simplify the process if No comments in Gallery until voting. If you post a thread with an image OR you ENTRY expect C&C in that thread. Post c&c in gallery after the voting. I think we should make a Best Effort to only enter in the Gallery once, however allowing a 2nd entry to correct a missed exif, or changing an image is a very nice option and is friendly to newbies.

VisualXpressions · November 18, 2011

The challenge runs for 2 weeks... I think it is just fine that we can change our entry within the contest time window... I wouldn't change a thing...

DsrtVW · November 18, 2011

divamum

It is really funny I read this post shortly after you put it up. I wanted to comment on it but then I had to run out the door and jump in the Service Assualt vehicle.
I knew this would be a good subject and when I came back there are 2 pages already.

Yes it seems that commenting has fallen off a bit. I am guilty of not participating more. Time and priorities are funny things and change over time. But this is still a great learning tool for any photographer beginning or advanced.

I do like the current system of the challenges as they stand, but I wonder if the old system cultivated more feedback. Being that if you did become a judge you had to give critiques and might be asked to guest judge if you were a more active participant on the boards.

I feel that the general C&C should be done on the forum post. Comments in the gallery should be given after the voting.

I know when I do get the chance to go on the boards I will look at post and if comments have been made and I do not see more to add I sometimes will not post. Especailly if time is a factor.

As far as getting people more involved that is a hard thing to foster. But can say I will try and be more supportive.
See just bringing it up will help motivate people.

divamum · November 19, 2011

One thing in re posting comments after the poll closing: when it was done by judges, comments appeared after the results were announced. Just saying....

Technically speaking I hesitate to give technique type feedback because I might be telling them something they already know and I'm afraid I would insult their intelligence...

Speaking for myself, I'm not insulted by that - as long as it's not actually abusive and gives some indication of what the actual problem is or how it might have been changed, it's helpful. And if it isn't.... I'm perfectly free to disagree with a posted comment (whether privately to myself, or publicly by response)

. Remember, opinions are like bellybuttons: everybody has one :giggle

jwear · November 19, 2011

divamum

I wish I were not so guilty of this but I am . My wildlife shooting is a bit different than most of the entry's . So what little feedback I do give is hard I find even thou you can reread before you post it still does not come out well with me . I am sorry to all of you for my failing in this matter ! I try to always enter a shot even if it is never going to get a vote and I have played here for years ---lots of years = I am a bad boy :cry

divamum some feedback great post

powder · November 19, 2011

As a "newcomer", I don't know what these challenges were like before. I do find it SO interesting to witness the variety of approaches and tastes that these challenges inspire. That, in itself keeps me coming back! I love to see great photos.
I am squeamish, like visualxpressions, sometimes to offer critique when I likely know less than the photographer. I also tend to think that a lot of a reaction to a photo is a matter of taste, and tend to "say nothing at all" if it doesn't strike my particular fancy.
I love to see and be inspired by the submissions here!
I agree that it might be helpful if there was a clear protocol of commenting behavior.

divamum · November 19, 2011

It's always good to open with what you DO like about a shot. Then, you can move on to specific suggestions for change.

My own rule of thumb for expressing a reservation in a comment is basically WWH:

- WHAT I don't like
- WHY I don't like it
- HOW it might be altered/improved

If something is obviously a matter of my own personal taste, I acknowledge that, and I certainly don't take offense if somebody tells me that an image doesn't work for them; if you read back through feedback threads, you will often find strongly diverging (often diametrically opposed!) opinions!

divmedic4 · November 19, 2011

As a "newcomer", I don't know what these challenges were like before. I do find it SO interesting to witness the variety of approaches and tastes that these challenges inspire. That, in itself keeps me coming back! I love to see great photos.
I am squeamish, like visualxpressions, sometimes to offer critique when I likely know less than the photographer. I also tend to think that a lot of a reaction to a photo is a matter of taste, and tend to "say nothing at all" if it doesn't strike my particular fancy.
I love to see and be inspired by the submissions here!
I agree that it might be helpful if there was a clear protocol of commenting behavior.

As another newbie, I feel this is very well said by Powder. Whether challenges or even threads, a lot of times I find myself debating whether to comment or not because of my experience level as well as not wanting to "upset the order of things."

IMO, Dgrin is an extremely friendly and constructive community. Still there does seem to be a pecking order (my perception) that I am still trying to comprehend. This limits some of my comments because I don't want to be the newbie that becomes known as THAT GUY, which would end up costing me the valuable, friendly advice that is available here.

Without being very experienced at the challenges (have entered 2 of last 3), is it a safe/true assumption that comments fluctuate with the challenge topic? For example, the Courage/Fear challenge falling at Halloween seemed to open up a lot of obvious possibilites for entries and, IIRC, there was a fair amount of comments made on those entries.

Thanks for reading and I hope this contributes to the discussion.

sapphire73 · November 19, 2011

Powder and Tom, thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. I just went back and found something I shared in early June when Froch was rejoicing that more people were commenting and some were expressing why they hesitate to comment. Hope it is helpful....

[Excerpt from earlier post]
When I started being more active on dgrin last February (2011), it seemed that commenting in the threads and entry galleries was encouraged. I knew from experience that general comments like "great shot" aren't all that helpful, so I googled "how to critique a photo" just to get some idea of what might be expected and more helpful. I think there are a lot of good points in this article: How to Critique a Photo The author offers this thought right up front:

Some people think they don't know enough about photography to write critiques. This isn't true. To write a useful critique, you need only three things:
- a reasonably decent monitor to view the photos
- at least one functioning eye
- a desire to help by writing honestly and constructively

The author suggests three broad areas that one could comment on: technique, composition, and whether or not you like the photo and why. I tend to agree with the author that even "beginners" are qualified to comment on how they respond to the photo and its story but I'd be interested in hearing whether folks think that is helpful to them or not. (Looking back at this article, I realize that I sometimes fall back into the "great shot" kind of comment and will try to be more specific.)

If folks haven't read Travis Owney's article "Why Enter a Photography Contest" about the value of commentary and critique to a photographer, I highly recommend it. (It is in the DSS Challenge links under Other Stuff.) Owney writes: "Critique others. I can think of very few ways to improve your own photography than to find areas of improvement in the work of others."

Gretchen