One more thing about learning to critique for the beginners among us...
In addition to looking into art history, it might be worth looking at the Digitial Photography School's website/blog to learn more about some of the technical stuff. They've got some great tips and introduce concepts and terminology that is helpful in understanding your own work and the work of others.
It is always helpful to look at other photographers' work as well. I can't get enough, personally. As you look at another photographer's work, think about all of the concepts that Divamum mentioned (the light, exposure, composition, emotional response, etc.) and describe the images. Write it down if you have to. Then go back to some work you did a while ago that you really liked (i.e., not a photograph you took yesterday, something you haven't seen in a while so that you're looking at it with fresh eyes) and do the same thing.
After a while, you should be able to better evaluate what you see according to these principles before you even hit the shutter button. We're all still learning and still trying to get there, but as it's been said, it's a process.
Okay, since the commenting before the vote is over isn't official and others are commenting, I'm going to do it. All I can say is don't hold it against me and please forgive me!
I think you have nailed why commenting was easier when there were two "official" judges making the first cut on the entries. Now that it's entirely done by poll, the dynamic is indeed a little more complicated!
Okay, since the commenting before the vote is over isn't official and others are commenting, I'm going to do it. All I can say is don't hold it against me and please forgive me!
Well... I've been learning the rules along the way.. just haven't figured out why it's good to break them!
Sorry I just picked up on this thread (insert cliche` here).:D
When the rules were changed, it totally changed my view of the challenges. I think they lost lots of credibility. When I enter a contest I want to be judged. And I prefer to be judged by someone who I at least think is beyond me in the skill or experience arena. Skill or experience in not only judging but of course Art in general OR Photography.
I think there is an argument to be made for the present system. What comes to mind is how over time societies were allowed to decide what it was that they wanted in their enclosed network. So, I get that component, or at least that's how the present system seems to me.
But that's not what I want when it comes to my art entered in a contest. I want it judged on the learned components that are accepted norms for judging photographic art. And though that may be employed by some of the judges that vote, it is almost certain that it cannot be employed by all.
Unless I miss my guess the system was changed due to difficulty in attracting judges to perform an under-appreciated function, over and over.
If I've been told once, I've been told a hundred times in this life, 'It's not what you say but how you say it.' And two things come to mind. One is, I think there is a good chance some folks would be bothered by a proper critique of their work. Because what you say can very easily be misconstrued into a personal attack, especially if that receiver is emotionally tied to that piece of work. And others (voters?) may well find your proper critique an attack. In fact this last reason is a key reason that I would not critique a piece that didn't do anything for me. A perceived slight is a slight. and it just aint worth it.
tom wise
0
sapphire73Registered Users, Super ModeratorsPosts: 1,970moderator
Okay, since the commenting before the vote is over isn't official and others are commenting, I'm going to do it. All I can say is don't hold it against me and please forgive me!
Like you, I've been keeping an eye on the comments. I'm still writing mine and will probably post them late tomorrow when more people have voted.
Like you, I've been keeping an eye on the comments. I'm still writing mine and will probably post them late tomorrow when more people have voted.
I've posted. But honestly. When the voting opens, all the images are in the thread. I don't refer to the gallery to see the images.
If it becomes official, I'll certainly adapt. But by end of vote, I've moved on. )
0
sapphire73Registered Users, Super ModeratorsPosts: 1,970moderator
I've posted. But honestly. When the voting opens, all the images are in the thread. I don't refer to the gallery to see the images.
If it becomes official, I'll certainly adapt. But by end of vote, I've moved on. )
Froch, saw your helpful comments and those made by others.:D Doesn't bother me to see the comments during the voting. And I almost prefer having a plethora of comments on each shot - showing a variety of responses. As I work on my comments, I'm feeling that being spontaneous makes it easier and that holding off on comments almost increases the pressure. [Edit] I started posting comments and will try to do some more tomorrow.
Many thanks to those of you who have been so good about making comments in the past! Nice to see so many people commenting this time around!
In my opinion, I don't think we need to make rules about when to comment where or who has to do comments. I think we all just need to try harder to comment on peoples posts both in the forums and in the gallery... because feedback makes the challenges work better and more fun. But to put all these commenting rules... seems so .... well... restrictive and cumbersome and makes what should be fun feel like a job.
Pho-tog-ra-pher (n) 1. One who practices photography 2. one obsessed with capturing life with their camera. 3. One who eats, sleeps and breathes photographs. 4. One who sees the world in 4x6. www.lisaspeakmanphotography.com
Haven't piped in here yet, mostly because of a severe lack of time, but to me, as soon as a photograph hits the gallery it should be open for comments. Also, if the poster has 2 images and picked one that was, say, softer and didn't notice it after hours of staring at a monitor (I've never done that of course) then it could be a huge help in presenting your best image. I'd like to think that we're all grown up enough to take a little criticism (except for you cold, calculating meanies that have said negative stuff about a shot of mine) and open enough to be able to tell someone when they've done a fantastic job or if something plain old just doesn't work. Putting your images up for everyone to see can be a terrifying thing, but if you're going to give it a try, you owe it to yourself to make the best attempt possible. I think that is reached by taking comments and critique from the very people you're participating with and learning as much as you can when the opportunity arises.
I've commented on some, have some more to go, but will do my absolute best to hit them all.
For the record, I like the old system much better, also, but understand the value of the current one, too.
Tom, I found your post above insightful and interesting.
Tom - your last name suits you. I agree. I almost felt physically sick while I was commenting, cringing as I went along. I tried be nice, fair and impartial, but I don't want to make enemies and to be honest, don't want to lose votes over something I said. We are all adults here, but you're right, it is easy to become emotionally tied to your work. I also admit that for some of the entries (the ones that didn't impress me), I didn't say exactly what I was thinking. There was no way to be that tactful without just saying 'start over'.
I know that it doesn't bother some people to just spout out what they think without giving much thought to the receiving end. It bothers me. Some people have a lot of confidence and some have a bit of arrogance. Then there are those who have neither, but they do have enough talent to participate. You have all of these mixed personalities and levels of expertise critiquing and how on earth does the receiver know which opinion to value anyway? What's the point of feedback when there is conflict in what is being said? One person says the processing is perfect and another one says it's too much. If it's my entry, I'm going to go with the person who said it's perfect, and I'm going to think about, but probably disregard, the one who said it was too much. Did I really gain anything?
Granted, I have learned a lot by participating here. There are people that I respect and they really earned that. Not by throwing comments at me, but by proving that they are worthy of respect by submitting exceptional entries time after time. I tend to listen to what they say, but it takes time to observe and extract that group of people.
I don't know. I tried it (commenting on every entry) and am not all that happy with how I felt when I was finished. I need to give this a lot of thought before I attempt to do it again.
I don't know. I tried it (commenting on every entry) and am not all that happy with how I felt when I was finished. I need to give this a lot of thought before I attempt to do it again.
How you felt ought to have been exhausted!:D Thats a tremendous amount of work to give each entry that kind of feedback. I suspect that is what the judges used to be up against each time. I dunno.
I have seen so very many entries I'd like hanging on my wall over time. Commentary can be nice, especially if it resonates with you, the artist. I'm impressed just by so many folks being inspired challenge after challenge to produce. My hats off to ya'll!
Tom - your last name suits you. I agree. I almost felt physically sick while I was commenting, cringing as I went along. I tried be nice, fair and impartial, but I don't want to make enemies and to be honest, don't want to lose votes over something I said. We are all adults here, but you're right, it is easy to become emotionally tied to your work. I also admit that for some of the entries (the ones that didn't impress me), I didn't say exactly what I was thinking. There was no way to be that tactful without just saying 'start over'.
I know that it doesn't bother some people to just spout out what they think without giving much thought to the receiving end. It bothers me. Some people have a lot of confidence and some have a bit of arrogance. Then there are those who have neither, but they do have enough talent to participate. You have all of these mixed personalities and levels of expertise critiquing and how on earth does the receiver know which opinion to value anyway? What's the point of feedback when there is conflict in what is being said? One person says the processing is perfect and another one says it's too much. If it's my entry, I'm going to go with the person who said it's perfect, and I'm going to think about, but probably disregard, the one who said it was too much. Did I really gain anything?
Granted, I have learned a lot by participating here. There are people that I respect and they really earned that. Not by throwing comments at me, but by proving that they are worthy of respect by submitting exceptional entries time after time. I tend to listen to what they say, but it takes time to observe and extract that group of people.
I don't know. I tried it (commenting on every entry) and am not all that happy with how I felt when I was finished. I need to give this a lot of thought before I attempt to do it again.
I feel similar to you! I went through and made an effort to comment on each photo... I don't want to make enemies with any comment I make either and want to try and say something positive but sometimes I just don't like something. It's so subjective... but if I'm gonna comment, I at least want to be honest too. Add to that... that I don't profess to be the best photographer in the room so to speak ... and I find myself wondering if I have the clout to even have my opinion. Being a critic is definitely not my strong suit. Maybe that will improve with time... along with my photos. I just hope that people take what I say in the spirit of friendship that it was meant.
Pho-tog-ra-pher (n) 1. One who practices photography 2. one obsessed with capturing life with their camera. 3. One who eats, sleeps and breathes photographs. 4. One who sees the world in 4x6. www.lisaspeakmanphotography.com
.......... You have all of these mixed personalities and levels of expertise critiquing and how on earth does the receiver know which opinion to value anyway?.........
You value yours.
I've said this a few times, that my commenting on someone's photo, is not for their benefit, but for mine. It's a selfish techique that forces me to look at the image and evaluate what I like or don't like in the frame. This is my way of reinforcing what I've learned by identifying it, and more than anything 'reinforces' for me when I'm shooting or posting of what I've seen work (or not) in other images. An example was months/challenges ago, I commented on someone's image saying it looked like an ad shot and that I felt that type of shot would not allow for the debris on the table which was present.
When I shot this for DSS #76 Mom or Wow
I made damn sure the surfaces were clean, and the edges exact, because I'd commented that they should be. My commentary forced me to be as exact as my skillset would allow.
I think the bottom line is to be nice to one another. And to remember there are many different levels of shooters in the group. Share your knowledge when you can remembering that many will already know that info but for that one person that doesn't it may be a insightful.
You value yours.
I've said this a few times, that my commenting on someone's photo, is not for their benefit, but for mine. It's a selfish techique that forces me to look at the image and evaluate what I like or don't like in the frame. This is my way of reinforcing what I've learned by identifying it, and more than anything 'reinforces' for me when I'm shooting or posting of what I've seen work (or not) in other images.
Seascapes, I respond to your post by asking: do you like getting comments on your own shots at all? You say that you find conflicting responses uncomfortable, but do you find no value in the feedback at all? Do you take constructive comments personally, or find them insulting? If you are that uncomfortable receiving comments, then I can understand why you find it uncomfortable to giving feedback. But if you appreciate others' responses to your work even a little ... well, you see my point
It's very interesting to me (as a voice teacher) to read these responses - you're giving me some insight into how/why some of my students at the beginning of their journey find it so difficult to "embrace the process"; I suspect they have similar feelings about feedback/comments as some of the posters here. Unfortunately, they can't grow as singers and musicians without learning to accept constructive criticism (some of which is pretty nebulous - the voice is an instrument the singer can neither hear nor see), and part of my job is teaching them how to do that. I guess that's why I feel comfortable approaching the subject here, too.
As artists, we have to accept that we can only control what we DO. We CAN'T predict or control others' responses to what we do. Sure, we can make educated guesses as to how people will respond, but they are only guesses, and we may get it very wrong sometimes! I submitted a couple of entries recently that may not have been earth-shattering, but I thought were kinda cute. They completely tanked in the voting. Was I surprised? A little. Was I upset? Not in the least. For this group, at this time, they didn't strike a chord. And that's OK! It's part of the artistic condition - once you put something "out there", you can't control how people will respond to it. This is, sadly, why some people never take the plunge. But I submit that the supportive community at dgrin makes it a very safe and nurturing place to take those first steps in exposing one's "artistic soul".
I also can only reiterate once again that, at least in my opinion, it's perfectly ok NOT to like something. Where it becomes an interesting exercise both for the giver and receiver is in trying to analyze *why* one doesn't like it, even if on some occasions that's just "No reason - it just didn't work for me". I wholeheartedly agree with Froch in that analyzing others' work hugely improves my own.
When the rules were changed, it totally changed my view of the challenges. I think they lost lots of credibility. When I enter a contest I want to be judged. And I prefer to be judged by someone who I at least think is beyond me in the skill or experience arena. Skill or experience in not only judging but of course Art in general OR Photography.
I think there is an argument to be made for the present system. What comes to mind is how over time societies were allowed to decide what it was that they wanted in their enclosed network. So, I get that component, or at least that's how the present system seems to me.
But that's not what I want when it comes to my art entered in a contest. I want it judged on the learned components that are accepted norms for judging photographic art. And though that may be employed by some of the judges that vote, it is almost certain that it cannot be employed by all.
Amen. Thanks for saying what I was too shy to say outright (now is that relevant or what?).
Getting to know people in this environment is difficult at best... where a persons words and photographs are all we have to know that person, their personality, motives, motivations, feelings etc. So I tend to believe a person is being honest and critiquing my image in good faith no matter how it is couched... I simply take a person's words at face value and for what it's worth...
When I comment or critique, if I like an image I say so and give the photographer credit, I personally try to leave emotion generating words or feeling description out of critique or comment, I try to be neutral and specific... It's difficult... there are some times I could simply use one or two words to describe/critique an image, but I try not to because I assume some photographers would take it the wrong way so I get wordy sometimes as to not hurt the person's feelings...
I think we all have to keep in mind that at the end of the day, no matter what the rules are or how it's judged this is a competition, a contest to find out which photo or photos are the best, and there are prizes to boot!
If you are taking it personally because you don't win or place in a challenge, or you get bummed out and angry because someone gave you a less than favorable critique on your shot then maybe you need to evaluate weather or not you should continue to participate in the challenges...
Critique and commentary on our images is extremely helpful in so many ways... Just keep in mind... It's never personal...
It's very interesting to me (as a voice teacher) to read these responses - you're giving me some insight into how/why some of my students at the beginning of their journey find it so difficult to "embrace the process"; I suspect they have similar feelings about feedback/comments as some of the posters here. Unfortunately, they can't grow as singers and musicians without learning to accept constructive criticism (some of which is pretty nebulous - the voice is an instrument the singer can neither hear nor see), and part of my job is teaching them how to do that. I guess that's why I feel comfortable approaching the subject here, too.
Let me give you some more (of my:D) insight. There are a LOT of insecure people in this world! and those insecure people pass that right along to your young students, and of course they grow up and often repeat that process. You feel comfortable because you know for what you are responsible for what you are not.
As artists, we have to accept that we can only control what we DO. We CAN'T predict or control others' responses to what we do.
I know you are a terrific performing artist DM. But so very many artist I have met and know too personally are just off the chain emotional and though they can handle criticism outwardly (usually) they self destruct internally. Besides, the other side to that coin is, where is it assured we're dealing with artists here, or artists as you describe them? No need to defend, your point is well taken and correct. Though I think we are simply people, not particularly artists. In fact, maybe we should ask for a Show of hands as to how many here actually are artists, trained, full time and self employed only? I'm one. [and I have the empty checking acct. to prove it!]
I also can only reiterate once again that, at least in my opinion, it's perfectly ok NOT to like something. Where it becomes an interesting exercise both for the giver and receiver is in trying to analyze *why* one doesn't like it, even if on some occasions that's just "No reason - it just didn't work for me". I wholeheartedly agree with Froch in that analyzing others' work hugely improves my own.
It is perfectly okay not to like someone's entry, but what is more germane here is why does it not qualify as a/the winner.
Though I think we are simply people, not particularly artists. In fact, maybe we should ask for a Show of hands as to how many here actually are artists, trained, full time and self employed only? I'm one. [and I have the empty checking acct. to prove it!]
literally laughed out loud - snorted my Diet Coke at the comment "and have the empty checking account to prove it" . ME TOO.
Not to defend, but to expand: I think in the context of submitting an entry to a photography contest, everybody qualifies as an artist regardless of whether we do this professionally or not, part time, full time or any other time. Whether that is An Artist (capital letters) is entirely debatable, but we are for sure dealing with an artistic context which imposes an artistic response on us. (wow that's hard to express and badly written - hope it makes some kind of sense!). I don't disagree with you that "artists" in general are crazy hard on themselves and can take things very personally, but having lived through that torture for many years, I know that *I* found some kind of peace when I started to understand just what I could and couldn't control about various situations. I'm not saying mine is the only way of dealing with that conflict, but realising where to focus my energies sure helped me learn to cohabit with the sense of judgement I felt was around me.
Btw, sorry I missed your response earlier until it was re-quoted back - you made some great points
I admit it... I get emotional .. Sometimes, I sit here and think .."They want me to take the photo again??!? Don't they know I may never get another one as good as the one they rejected?" I want to bang my head on the desk because I feel so inadequate, unskilled, or even less of a person at times because no matter how hard I try I can't seem to get it right. I must be a gluton for punishment because eventually I keep coming back for more! I hate failing, tho, more than I hate getting bad critiques all the time. When I finally get a better critique I practically want to physically jump up and down and celebrate. It's even better when someone tells me that they can see how I'm improving and I'm doing something right.
A few of you, on occasion, have even taken the time to send me a private msg with some encouraging words in it, which, is quite wonderful for me because each time it's a pleasant surprise to see that 'private msg' pop up box! (ya'll know who you are! )
I've gotten a lot of information and critiques since I've been here, and have tried to not let it hurt or disappoint, but try as I might, I still struggle with it at times.... but, it's part of what will contribute to me growing and improving, so I just tell myself that it hurt ... get back up again and then try to take the advice that's been given. Falling down is part of getting stronger, anyway.
literally laughed out loud - snorted my Diet Coke at the comment "and have the empty checking account to prove it" . ME TOO.
Not to defend, but to expand: I think in the context of submitting an entry to a photography contest, everybody qualifies as an artist. Whether that is An Artist (capital letters) is entirely debatable, but I think, in this particular context, we all are artists regardless of whether we do this professionally or not, part time, full time or any other time.
Btw, sorry I missed your response earlier until it was re-quoted back - you make some great points
You make a valid point in expanding. I feel the exact same way. Exact-exactly! I hold many of your opinions true for myself. All I can say is, I have seen a huge amount of insecurity in these last few years outside of art, inside of it too. And that insecurity has caused me to keep my mouth shut. But woe-betide to the (insecure) person that actually wants my opinion. Everyone else is equipped to deal with it.
I saw a lot of commentary made, which was nice, probably made some folks feel good on either end of that. But many of those comments were of no help to that entrant. and I am as guilty as anyone else in that. Sometimes I just want to jump and scream at my joy over some photo. But I really don't feel comfortable doing that either(Myers-Briggs: ieieieieie):D
On a personal level, and pseudo-relevant, I am Caucasian. I went to an all Black University, studied Black history, and Black art. Consequently I have a huge place in my heart for Black art, and militant art at that. But I have to keep that close to me. Almost protect that component of me. One of the genres of art I like the most fits in so few spaces and communities.
You make a valid point in expanding. I feel the exact same way. Exact-exactly! I hold many of your opinions true for myself. All I can say is, I have seen a huge amount of insecurity in these last few years outside of art, inside of it too. And that insecurity has caused me to keep my mouth shut. But woe-betide to the (insecure) person that actually wants my opinion. Everyone else is equipped to deal with it.
I saw a lot of commentary made, which was nice, probably made some folks feel good on either end of that. But many of those comments were of no help to that entrant. and I am as guilty as anyone else in that. Sometimes I just want to jump and scream at my joy over some photo. But I really don't feel comfortable doing that either(Myers-Briggs: ieieieieie):D
On a personal level, and pseudo-relevant, I am Caucasian. I went to an all Black University, studied Black history, and Black art. Consequently I have a huge place in my heart for Black art, and militant art at that. But I have to keep that close to me. Almost protect that component of me. One of the genres of art I like the most fits in so few spaces and communities.
In my own field of expertise and the things I do every day, I'm fairly confident, but photography expands on the creative person that I am on an every day basis. It started out as a hobby where I enjoyed taking the occasional group of photos during Fall or Winter and I'd get one or two really nice shots now and then. I love to do graphic art and web graphics... mostly.
I bought a digital camera a few years ago and never really studied how to make good use of it, so being here has helped me do that, plus, it's given me another outlet that I can practice creativity. I started out here having a very hard time with the critiques because I had no idea how to accomplish the changes people were suggesting, but recently I think I've had a small epiphany which had a lot to do with someone suggesting I UP the resolution on my camera which should help with many issues I've been struggling with in my photos. I really appreciate all the help and suggestions along the way from everyone even if I don't quite understand it at the time it's given. Eventually, the light comes on when I put it together with 45 other suggestions and then it makes sense!
DM - No, I don't find conflicting responses uncomfortable, I meant that it might be confusing to some people. I am pretty comfortable with what I do and mostly sure of my entry when I enter it. For example, this time with the Suede Shoes, I got some comments that it was too dark. While processing, I did lighten it a few times, but kept backing off because to me, the scene looked better with less light. That was my preference. I know that I have to be happy with my work first and foremost. I stand by that decision, although I will agree that both shoes should have been in focus. That was another comment that I got and one that I did second guess during shooting/processing.
Of course I like getting comments. I'm going to have to try to look at it from Paul's perspective that commenting will help me improve. That is going to take some work because now I feel like I really have to spin myself around to see it that way. Right now, it's all about the other person.
I think our occupations have a lot to do with our personalities and ability to critique. Occupations do mold us over time. You are lucky that you can apply your occupational capabilities to this. I am in the legal field and deal with facts and am generally blunt and to the point. That is one of the reasons I push myself to do this; to stay creative (I used to be) and keep myself from being too flat. I have to dig deep to find that softer side to comment without being insensitive. At the same time, I am aware that people have feelings and would never intentionally hurt anyone (mother, peace-maker side). My job for the past 15 years has really changed me...I used to write, I used to sing, I used to make things, and photography has lulled me back a bit to the other side. I have a ways to go though.
I do not get upset when I don't place in a Challenge. I might feel bad for three seconds but as soon as I read the new theme I am already on to the next one. I don't do this to win (although that is nice); I do this to improve and challenge myself. I've also had a lot of fun along the way.
For example, this time with the Suede Shoes, I got some comments that it was too dark. While processing, I did lighten it a few times, but kept backing off because to me, the scene looked better with less light. That was my preference. I know that I have to be happy with my work first and foremost. I stand by that decision, although I will agree that both shoes should have been in focus. That was another comment that I got and one that I did second guess during shooting/processing.
Both in focus? Then it wouldn't have been a shallow DOF! And the light/lighting is not only fine, but mid and low key. Well done! And of course my pet love, color palette. I like limited color palettes. And having them limited is especially important to prevent distraction, I like to think of it as accessorizing: you want everything to look like it goes together.. As far as I can tell there are only two colors in that photo, so for me, you outdid yourself.
So I'm late to the thread, and MIA from the last couple of challenges due to work impact that's beyond extreme. Good thing I love my work as much as my photo addiction. Anyway, I avoided adding my voice to this thread until I'd commented on this round's gallery entries. Just finished and wanted to have that done before dropping my 2 cents worth into the thread....
I'm an educator by trade.. a former music teacher who's grown up to be a school district administrator. I take pictures to satisfy my need for creative outlet and to occupy my mind from spinning on work issues 24/7. I love feedback (any kind) on my images and actually love to make comments, too. I tend to be fairly bold in offering praise and suggestion. At the very least I try to find a way to convey why I think something doesn't work for me. For me the part of the appeal of this forum is interaction with people who are interested in becoming better photographers (just as I am). I've discovered that that will happen more in the threads than the gallery. I've been pleased with feedback there and have tried to reciprocate (not very well of late, though). I appreciate the poke to comment that started this whole thread and (workload permitting) will try to be better at that in the future. As the song says "You gotta give to get, you gotta give to get back" ("God Knows" by El Perro del Mar from the album "Songs of the Siren - Irresistable Voices")
So regarding the questions about process, it seems there's no real consensus for anything but the status quo. But my sense is that anything that would involve policing or managing content beyond what's happening now is beyond the scope of influence the users have. So make the most of what is. A good start would be to create suggested protocols and agree to live by them. For those who don't...no biggie. For me, I'll try to comment in thread (when I'm able to participate) and certainly on at least my favorites in the galleries.
Thanks for the chance to join the discussion. Hope to be back on board with the ICE challenge... but it's hard to tell what's gonna happen at work in the next several weeks.
BTW, this is a terrific forum with genuinely nice people. And there's a wide variety of ablities, expereince, and styles. I don' tbeleive anyone should be shy about commenting. Contradicting comments... welcome to the real world. Take what helps, reject what doesn't. Join the parade... there's no limit how long it is or who's marching.
Tom - appreciated the interruption! Feel free anytime....Thank you!
What I meant was, I had the first shoe in focus, but the second one was not. I guess this is really not a huge important factor in the photo, but since I was calling it Suede Shoes, perhaps both should have been sharp and the shallow DOF beyond that.
This has been an interesting discussion to say the least. If anything, we got to interact with each other in ways we have not done before. It's nice to get a little more personal.
Sandi, your post(s) above are beyond awesome. Brilliant stuff!
You made me laugh at myself, too - here I am, allegedly the artistic airy-fairy opera singer being pretty darned direct, while you, the facts-only-legal-whiz is afraid of being too blunt! You are absolutely right that our "other lives" affect how we come into this... although perhaps not always in ways we could anticipate....
I will also say that I had an interesting experience this week which made me think of this thread as it put into perspective how utterly ridiculous being "artistic" can sometimes be. Our dishwasher broke, and it was a case of either wait a week for our friend-the-contractor to come and do it, or do it myself. He encouraged me to try the latter - helpfully, also always at the end of the phone if I should get into trouble! - and (to my considerable amazement) I managed it. But as I was connecting black wire to black wire, and systematically working down the list of clear, factual steps to remove machine #1 and replace it with machine #2, it made me consider that no WONDER it's so hard for many people to jump into the nebulous, subjective arena! Boy what a difference. I'd forgotten what it was like to have a list of specific things to tick off, knowing that I had (or hadn't) achieved them without any discussion, debate, or gray area.
Billseye, another great post . Also, I think it bears repeating that we all understand the pressures of time - as somebody, I think it was Sapphire, said: if enough of us make the effort to contribute as often as we realistically can, that will keep things going even with the normal ebb and flow of real life impacting any individual's ability to contribute.
All good stuff. Thanks for such a great discussion! I never expected this thread to snowball as it has when I initially posted, but I'm so glad it has. I've learned a few very interesting new things about myself as well as my esteemed colleagues
In my opinion, I don't think we need to make rules about when to comment where or who has to do comments. I think we all just need to try harder to comment on peoples posts both in the forums and in the gallery... because feedback makes the challenges work better and more fun. But to put all these commenting rules... seems so .... well... restrictive and cumbersome and makes what should be fun feel like a job.
One of the things that makes this place so great is the community (you). The community happens because people want to participate not because they have to.
I have left this thread on its own and decided not to merge it into general discussion because it has had such a wide participation level it feels like it deserves to be in it's own thread.
My biggest observation is that you are all a super bunch of artists that have passion in both your craft and sharing it with others. The cordial discussion here is very nice to see. I believe as a community you can all agree on what is the best way to integrate commenting.
I still believe that no matter how the challenges are ultimately run there will always be a side that likes how things are and a side that wishes for change. That change was given and I see it working very well for the time being. For the moment I do not feel there is enough evidence to warrant further refinement.
This is not to say you should stop discussion about commenting or anything else related to it. Anything discussed can be useful for future refinements or if and when a new moderator takes over they may wish to utilize the ideas presented.
I just spent 40 minutes reading every word of this thread. It is an incredible compliment to this community that such a long and opinionated discussion can take place so civilly. That's what makes this such a great place.
Each person has a finite amount of time to spend in this Forum. My time has been extremely limited. So, I try to comment on what moves me. sometimes all of my thoughts have already been expressed and I do not post a comment.
I very much miss the former voting format, but have adapted to the current one. The biggest part of the forum is your feedback. There are challenges in which I post some ideas, work on them, consider your feedback, but never post an entry.
I think the key to this is that each person gives what they can. In the end it is really about how each participant feels in their gut about their own craft. Two cases in point for me. The first challenge that I won was Stripes in summer '10. I was on vacation and had lots of time to play with my camera. I created a photo that I liked. It had selective coloring, which touched off a storm of both parise and criticism. Nightpixels told me to remember to go with my own gut, that it was important to know myself rather than to please the challenge community. Against popular opinion, I entered the selctive colred photo and placed first. That was a turning point in my relationship with my craft.
The second case was the last Mega, which I was stunned to win, as sports shots rarely received wide acceptaqnce here. I had no free time to shoot, as I had several paid sports photography jobs that period. I kept the challenge in mind and tried to incorporate LATE into my shooting. When the ACC semifinal went to a shoot out, I prepared myself for LATE. I loved the shot that I entered, but it was made better by taking the advice of those who commented in the thread. I would probably not have captured that particular shot at that late moment if I had not been participating in the MEGA. I re-discovered that just by being part of this group, my photography improves.
Other thoughts.... I love it when I get a spectrum of comments. For those who feel too green to have an opinion, please feel free to comment on my images. You have no idea how helpful it is to hear the opnions of newbies. You are fresh eyes with a new perspective. For those of you who are seasoned in the forum, your eyes tell me such valuable things.
I like to comment in the threads. I'm not crazy about commenting in the gallery because most everyone tip-toes. I will take permission from this discussion to participate in the gallery comments with honest feedback, as I don't do the candy-coated stuff very well.
I loved the idea that the top five in any challenge take the responsibility to comment on all of the photos in the next challenge. I will try to do that for the next challenge.
There is a forum out there that allows comments to be posted throughout the challenge period, but those comments are hidden until the voting is finished. I like that. It's a great compromise that allows folks to comment when it is convenient without the comments having an impact on the voting. I also see that one comment is not influenced by a previous commenter.
Lastly, I'd like to thank Sean for taking the time and making the effort to run such a collegial forum.
Comments
In addition to looking into art history, it might be worth looking at the Digitial Photography School's website/blog to learn more about some of the technical stuff. They've got some great tips and introduce concepts and terminology that is helpful in understanding your own work and the work of others.
It is always helpful to look at other photographers' work as well. I can't get enough, personally. As you look at another photographer's work, think about all of the concepts that Divamum mentioned (the light, exposure, composition, emotional response, etc.) and describe the images. Write it down if you have to. Then go back to some work you did a while ago that you really liked (i.e., not a photograph you took yesterday, something you haven't seen in a while so that you're looking at it with fresh eyes) and do the same thing.
After a while, you should be able to better evaluate what you see according to these principles before you even hit the shutter button. We're all still learning and still trying to get there, but as it's been said, it's a process.
Spread the love! Go comment on something!
If I could tell the story in words, I wouldn't need to lug around a camera. ~Lewis Hine
http://sandizphotos-seascapes.smugmug.com/
Sorry I just picked up on this thread (insert cliche` here).:D
When the rules were changed, it totally changed my view of the challenges. I think they lost lots of credibility. When I enter a contest I want to be judged. And I prefer to be judged by someone who I at least think is beyond me in the skill or experience arena. Skill or experience in not only judging but of course Art in general OR Photography.
I think there is an argument to be made for the present system. What comes to mind is how over time societies were allowed to decide what it was that they wanted in their enclosed network. So, I get that component, or at least that's how the present system seems to me.
But that's not what I want when it comes to my art entered in a contest. I want it judged on the learned components that are accepted norms for judging photographic art. And though that may be employed by some of the judges that vote, it is almost certain that it cannot be employed by all.
Unless I miss my guess the system was changed due to difficulty in attracting judges to perform an under-appreciated function, over and over.
If I've been told once, I've been told a hundred times in this life, 'It's not what you say but how you say it.' And two things come to mind. One is, I think there is a good chance some folks would be bothered by a proper critique of their work. Because what you say can very easily be misconstrued into a personal attack, especially if that receiver is emotionally tied to that piece of work. And others (voters?) may well find your proper critique an attack. In fact this last reason is a key reason that I would not critique a piece that didn't do anything for me. A perceived slight is a slight. and it just aint worth it.
Like you, I've been keeping an eye on the comments. I'm still writing mine and will probably post them late tomorrow when more people have voted.
My SmugMug Galleries
I've posted. But honestly. When the voting opens, all the images are in the thread. I don't refer to the gallery to see the images.
If it becomes official, I'll certainly adapt. But by end of vote, I've moved on.
Froch, saw your helpful comments and those made by others.:D Doesn't bother me to see the comments during the voting. And I almost prefer having a plethora of comments on each shot - showing a variety of responses. As I work on my comments, I'm feeling that being spontaneous makes it easier and that holding off on comments almost increases the pressure. [Edit] I started posting comments and will try to do some more tomorrow.
Many thanks to those of you who have been so good about making comments in the past! Nice to see so many people commenting this time around!
Gretchen
My SmugMug Galleries
www.lisaspeakmanphotography.com
I've commented on some, have some more to go, but will do my absolute best to hit them all.
For the record, I like the old system much better, also, but understand the value of the current one, too.
Tom, I found your post above insightful and interesting.
Thanks!
When i came to the challenges, i took time to read thru the threads from the early days, and that was insightful!
I know that it doesn't bother some people to just spout out what they think without giving much thought to the receiving end. It bothers me. Some people have a lot of confidence and some have a bit of arrogance. Then there are those who have neither, but they do have enough talent to participate. You have all of these mixed personalities and levels of expertise critiquing and how on earth does the receiver know which opinion to value anyway? What's the point of feedback when there is conflict in what is being said? One person says the processing is perfect and another one says it's too much. If it's my entry, I'm going to go with the person who said it's perfect, and I'm going to think about, but probably disregard, the one who said it was too much. Did I really gain anything?
Granted, I have learned a lot by participating here. There are people that I respect and they really earned that. Not by throwing comments at me, but by proving that they are worthy of respect by submitting exceptional entries time after time. I tend to listen to what they say, but it takes time to observe and extract that group of people.
I don't know. I tried it (commenting on every entry) and am not all that happy with how I felt when I was finished. I need to give this a lot of thought before I attempt to do it again.
If I could tell the story in words, I wouldn't need to lug around a camera. ~Lewis Hine
http://sandizphotos-seascapes.smugmug.com/
How you felt ought to have been exhausted!:D Thats a tremendous amount of work to give each entry that kind of feedback. I suspect that is what the judges used to be up against each time. I dunno.
I have seen so very many entries I'd like hanging on my wall over time. Commentary can be nice, especially if it resonates with you, the artist. I'm impressed just by so many folks being inspired challenge after challenge to produce. My hats off to ya'll!
I feel similar to you! I went through and made an effort to comment on each photo... I don't want to make enemies with any comment I make either and want to try and say something positive but sometimes I just don't like something. It's so subjective... but if I'm gonna comment, I at least want to be honest too. Add to that... that I don't profess to be the best photographer in the room so to speak ... and I find myself wondering if I have the clout to even have my opinion. Being a critic is definitely not my strong suit. Maybe that will improve with time... along with my photos. I just hope that people take what I say in the spirit of friendship that it was meant.
www.lisaspeakmanphotography.com
You value yours.
I've said this a few times, that my commenting on someone's photo, is not for their benefit, but for mine. It's a selfish techique that forces me to look at the image and evaluate what I like or don't like in the frame. This is my way of reinforcing what I've learned by identifying it, and more than anything 'reinforces' for me when I'm shooting or posting of what I've seen work (or not) in other images. An example was months/challenges ago, I commented on someone's image saying it looked like an ad shot and that I felt that type of shot would not allow for the debris on the table which was present.
When I shot this for DSS #76 Mom or Wow
I made damn sure the surfaces were clean, and the edges exact, because I'd commented that they should be. My commentary forced me to be as exact as my skillset would allow.
I think the bottom line is to be nice to one another. And to remember there are many different levels of shooters in the group. Share your knowledge when you can remembering that many will already know that info but for that one person that doesn't it may be a insightful.
Great insight!
It's very interesting to me (as a voice teacher) to read these responses - you're giving me some insight into how/why some of my students at the beginning of their journey find it so difficult to "embrace the process"; I suspect they have similar feelings about feedback/comments as some of the posters here. Unfortunately, they can't grow as singers and musicians without learning to accept constructive criticism (some of which is pretty nebulous - the voice is an instrument the singer can neither hear nor see), and part of my job is teaching them how to do that. I guess that's why I feel comfortable approaching the subject here, too.
As artists, we have to accept that we can only control what we DO. We CAN'T predict or control others' responses to what we do. Sure, we can make educated guesses as to how people will respond, but they are only guesses, and we may get it very wrong sometimes! I submitted a couple of entries recently that may not have been earth-shattering, but I thought were kinda cute. They completely tanked in the voting. Was I surprised? A little. Was I upset? Not in the least. For this group, at this time, they didn't strike a chord. And that's OK! It's part of the artistic condition - once you put something "out there", you can't control how people will respond to it. This is, sadly, why some people never take the plunge. But I submit that the supportive community at dgrin makes it a very safe and nurturing place to take those first steps in exposing one's "artistic soul".
I also can only reiterate once again that, at least in my opinion, it's perfectly ok NOT to like something. Where it becomes an interesting exercise both for the giver and receiver is in trying to analyze *why* one doesn't like it, even if on some occasions that's just "No reason - it just didn't work for me". I wholeheartedly agree with Froch in that analyzing others' work hugely improves my own.
Amen. Thanks for saying what I was too shy to say outright (now is that relevant or what?).
Spread the love! Go comment on something!
When I comment or critique, if I like an image I say so and give the photographer credit, I personally try to leave emotion generating words or feeling description out of critique or comment, I try to be neutral and specific... It's difficult... there are some times I could simply use one or two words to describe/critique an image, but I try not to because I assume some photographers would take it the wrong way so I get wordy sometimes as to not hurt the person's feelings...
I think we all have to keep in mind that at the end of the day, no matter what the rules are or how it's judged this is a competition, a contest to find out which photo or photos are the best, and there are prizes to boot!
If you are taking it personally because you don't win or place in a challenge, or you get bummed out and angry because someone gave you a less than favorable critique on your shot then maybe you need to evaluate weather or not you should continue to participate in the challenges...
Critique and commentary on our images is extremely helpful in so many ways... Just keep in mind... It's never personal...
Winston
Let me give you some more (of my:D) insight. There are a LOT of insecure people in this world! and those insecure people pass that right along to your young students, and of course they grow up and often repeat that process. You feel comfortable because you know for what you are responsible for what you are not.
I know you are a terrific performing artist DM. But so very many artist I have met and know too personally are just off the chain emotional and though they can handle criticism outwardly (usually) they self destruct internally. Besides, the other side to that coin is, where is it assured we're dealing with artists here, or artists as you describe them? No need to defend, your point is well taken and correct. Though I think we are simply people, not particularly artists. In fact, maybe we should ask for a Show of hands as to how many here actually are artists, trained, full time and self employed only? I'm one. [and I have the empty checking acct. to prove it!]
It is perfectly okay not to like someone's entry, but what is more germane here is why does it not qualify as a/the winner.
yeah, I about choked when I read what you wrote!:D
literally laughed out loud - snorted my Diet Coke at the comment "and have the empty checking account to prove it" . ME TOO.
Not to defend, but to expand: I think in the context of submitting an entry to a photography contest, everybody qualifies as an artist regardless of whether we do this professionally or not, part time, full time or any other time. Whether that is An Artist (capital letters) is entirely debatable, but we are for sure dealing with an artistic context which imposes an artistic response on us. (wow that's hard to express and badly written - hope it makes some kind of sense!). I don't disagree with you that "artists" in general are crazy hard on themselves and can take things very personally, but having lived through that torture for many years, I know that *I* found some kind of peace when I started to understand just what I could and couldn't control about various situations. I'm not saying mine is the only way of dealing with that conflict, but realising where to focus my energies sure helped me learn to cohabit with the sense of judgement I felt was around me.
Btw, sorry I missed your response earlier until it was re-quoted back - you made some great points
A few of you, on occasion, have even taken the time to send me a private msg with some encouraging words in it, which, is quite wonderful for me because each time it's a pleasant surprise to see that 'private msg' pop up box!
I've gotten a lot of information and critiques since I've been here, and have tried to not let it hurt or disappoint, but try as I might, I still struggle with it at times.... but, it's part of what will contribute to me growing and improving, so I just tell myself that it hurt ... get back up again and then try to take the advice that's been given. Falling down is part of getting stronger, anyway.
Thanks for sticking with me. :-)
Panasonic Lumix 10x DMC-TZ3 :photo
Leica Mega O.I.S./28mm WIDE :smile6
You make a valid point in expanding. I feel the exact same way. Exact-exactly! I hold many of your opinions true for myself. All I can say is, I have seen a huge amount of insecurity in these last few years outside of art, inside of it too. And that insecurity has caused me to keep my mouth shut. But woe-betide to the (insecure) person that actually wants my opinion. Everyone else is equipped to deal with it.
I saw a lot of commentary made, which was nice, probably made some folks feel good on either end of that. But many of those comments were of no help to that entrant. and I am as guilty as anyone else in that. Sometimes I just want to jump and scream at my joy over some photo. But I really don't feel comfortable doing that either(Myers-Briggs: ieieieieie):D
On a personal level, and pseudo-relevant, I am Caucasian. I went to an all Black University, studied Black history, and Black art. Consequently I have a huge place in my heart for Black art, and militant art at that. But I have to keep that close to me. Almost protect that component of me. One of the genres of art I like the most fits in so few spaces and communities.
In my own field of expertise and the things I do every day, I'm fairly confident, but photography expands on the creative person that I am on an every day basis. It started out as a hobby where I enjoyed taking the occasional group of photos during Fall or Winter and I'd get one or two really nice shots now and then. I love to do graphic art and web graphics... mostly.
I bought a digital camera a few years ago and never really studied how to make good use of it, so being here has helped me do that, plus, it's given me another outlet that I can practice creativity. I started out here having a very hard time with the critiques because I had no idea how to accomplish the changes people were suggesting, but recently I think I've had a small epiphany which had a lot to do with someone suggesting I UP the resolution on my camera which should help with many issues I've been struggling with in my photos. I really appreciate all the help and suggestions along the way from everyone even if I don't quite understand it at the time it's given. Eventually, the light comes on when I put it together with 45 other suggestions and then it makes sense!
Panasonic Lumix 10x DMC-TZ3 :photo
Leica Mega O.I.S./28mm WIDE :smile6
Of course I like getting comments. I'm going to have to try to look at it from Paul's perspective that commenting will help me improve. That is going to take some work because now I feel like I really have to spin myself around to see it that way. Right now, it's all about the other person.
I think our occupations have a lot to do with our personalities and ability to critique. Occupations do mold us over time. You are lucky that you can apply your occupational capabilities to this. I am in the legal field and deal with facts and am generally blunt and to the point. That is one of the reasons I push myself to do this; to stay creative (I used to be) and keep myself from being too flat. I have to dig deep to find that softer side to comment without being insensitive. At the same time, I am aware that people have feelings and would never intentionally hurt anyone (mother, peace-maker side). My job for the past 15 years has really changed me...I used to write, I used to sing, I used to make things, and photography has lulled me back a bit to the other side. I have a ways to go though.
I do not get upset when I don't place in a Challenge. I might feel bad for three seconds but as soon as I read the new theme I am already on to the next one. I don't do this to win (although that is nice); I do this to improve and challenge myself. I've also had a lot of fun along the way.
If I could tell the story in words, I wouldn't need to lug around a camera. ~Lewis Hine
http://sandizphotos-seascapes.smugmug.com/
Both in focus? Then it wouldn't have been a shallow DOF! And the light/lighting is not only fine, but mid and low key. Well done! And of course my pet love, color palette. I like limited color palettes. And having them limited is especially important to prevent distraction, I like to think of it as accessorizing: you want everything to look like it goes together.. As far as I can tell there are only two colors in that photo, so for me, you outdid yourself.
Sorry for the interruption...Carry on~:D
I'm an educator by trade.. a former music teacher who's grown up to be a school district administrator. I take pictures to satisfy my need for creative outlet and to occupy my mind from spinning on work issues 24/7. I love feedback (any kind) on my images and actually love to make comments, too. I tend to be fairly bold in offering praise and suggestion. At the very least I try to find a way to convey why I think something doesn't work for me. For me the part of the appeal of this forum is interaction with people who are interested in becoming better photographers (just as I am). I've discovered that that will happen more in the threads than the gallery. I've been pleased with feedback there and have tried to reciprocate (not very well of late, though). I appreciate the poke to comment that started this whole thread and (workload permitting) will try to be better at that in the future. As the song says "You gotta give to get, you gotta give to get back" ("God Knows" by El Perro del Mar from the album "Songs of the Siren - Irresistable Voices")
So regarding the questions about process, it seems there's no real consensus for anything but the status quo. But my sense is that anything that would involve policing or managing content beyond what's happening now is beyond the scope of influence the users have. So make the most of what is. A good start would be to create suggested protocols and agree to live by them. For those who don't...no biggie. For me, I'll try to comment in thread (when I'm able to participate) and certainly on at least my favorites in the galleries.
Thanks for the chance to join the discussion. Hope to be back on board with the ICE challenge... but it's hard to tell what's gonna happen at work in the next several weeks.
BTW, this is a terrific forum with genuinely nice people. And there's a wide variety of ablities, expereince, and styles. I don' tbeleive anyone should be shy about commenting. Contradicting comments... welcome to the real world. Take what helps, reject what doesn't. Join the parade... there's no limit how long it is or who's marching.
So much to learn. I love it!
Check out billseye photos on SmugMug
What I meant was, I had the first shoe in focus, but the second one was not. I guess this is really not a huge important factor in the photo, but since I was calling it Suede Shoes, perhaps both should have been sharp and the shallow DOF beyond that.
This has been an interesting discussion to say the least. If anything, we got to interact with each other in ways we have not done before. It's nice to get a little more personal.
If I could tell the story in words, I wouldn't need to lug around a camera. ~Lewis Hine
http://sandizphotos-seascapes.smugmug.com/
You made me laugh at myself, too - here I am, allegedly the artistic airy-fairy opera singer being pretty darned direct, while you, the facts-only-legal-whiz is afraid of being too blunt! You are absolutely right that our "other lives" affect how we come into this... although perhaps not always in ways we could anticipate....
I will also say that I had an interesting experience this week which made me think of this thread as it put into perspective how utterly ridiculous being "artistic" can sometimes be. Our dishwasher broke, and it was a case of either wait a week for our friend-the-contractor to come and do it, or do it myself. He encouraged me to try the latter - helpfully, also always at the end of the phone if I should get into trouble! - and (to my considerable amazement) I managed it. But as I was connecting black wire to black wire, and systematically working down the list of clear, factual steps to remove machine #1 and replace it with machine #2, it made me consider that no WONDER it's so hard for many people to jump into the nebulous, subjective arena! Boy what a difference. I'd forgotten what it was like to have a list of specific things to tick off, knowing that I had (or hadn't) achieved them without any discussion, debate, or gray area.
Billseye, another great post
All good stuff. Thanks for such a great discussion! I never expected this thread to snowball as it has when I initially posted, but I'm so glad it has. I've learned a few very interesting new things about myself as well as my esteemed colleagues
Below is probably the best summation of how I feel about the "rules" involving feedback.
One of the things that makes this place so great is the community (you). The community happens because people want to participate not because they have to.
I have left this thread on its own and decided not to merge it into general discussion because it has had such a wide participation level it feels like it deserves to be in it's own thread.
My biggest observation is that you are all a super bunch of artists that have passion in both your craft and sharing it with others. The cordial discussion here is very nice to see. I believe as a community you can all agree on what is the best way to integrate commenting.
I still believe that no matter how the challenges are ultimately run there will always be a side that likes how things are and a side that wishes for change. That change was given and I see it working very well for the time being. For the moment I do not feel there is enough evidence to warrant further refinement.
This is not to say you should stop discussion about commenting or anything else related to it. Anything discussed can be useful for future refinements or if and when a new moderator takes over they may wish to utilize the ideas presented.
Great thread divamum!
Each person has a finite amount of time to spend in this Forum. My time has been extremely limited. So, I try to comment on what moves me. sometimes all of my thoughts have already been expressed and I do not post a comment.
I very much miss the former voting format, but have adapted to the current one. The biggest part of the forum is your feedback. There are challenges in which I post some ideas, work on them, consider your feedback, but never post an entry.
I think the key to this is that each person gives what they can. In the end it is really about how each participant feels in their gut about their own craft. Two cases in point for me. The first challenge that I won was Stripes in summer '10. I was on vacation and had lots of time to play with my camera. I created a photo that I liked. It had selective coloring, which touched off a storm of both parise and criticism. Nightpixels told me to remember to go with my own gut, that it was important to know myself rather than to please the challenge community. Against popular opinion, I entered the selctive colred photo and placed first. That was a turning point in my relationship with my craft.
The second case was the last Mega, which I was stunned to win, as sports shots rarely received wide acceptaqnce here. I had no free time to shoot, as I had several paid sports photography jobs that period. I kept the challenge in mind and tried to incorporate LATE into my shooting. When the ACC semifinal went to a shoot out, I prepared myself for LATE. I loved the shot that I entered, but it was made better by taking the advice of those who commented in the thread. I would probably not have captured that particular shot at that late moment if I had not been participating in the MEGA. I re-discovered that just by being part of this group, my photography improves.
Other thoughts.... I love it when I get a spectrum of comments. For those who feel too green to have an opinion, please feel free to comment on my images. You have no idea how helpful it is to hear the opnions of newbies. You are fresh eyes with a new perspective. For those of you who are seasoned in the forum, your eyes tell me such valuable things.
I like to comment in the threads. I'm not crazy about commenting in the gallery because most everyone tip-toes. I will take permission from this discussion to participate in the gallery comments with honest feedback, as I don't do the candy-coated stuff very well.
I loved the idea that the top five in any challenge take the responsibility to comment on all of the photos in the next challenge. I will try to do that for the next challenge.
There is a forum out there that allows comments to be posted throughout the challenge period, but those comments are hidden until the voting is finished. I like that. It's a great compromise that allows folks to comment when it is convenient without the comments having an impact on the voting. I also see that one comment is not influenced by a previous commenter.
Lastly, I'd like to thank Sean for taking the time and making the effort to run such a collegial forum.
Chris
When you come to a door... walk through it.
If it's locked... find an open window.