My reason for not critiquing is a difficult admission (for me). First of all, I do have a hard time giving criticism no matter how constructive it is. I don't like to hurt the feelings of others. My main reason for not speaking up is mostly because I do not feel qualified to judge. Maybe I'm a little hard on myself, but I don't feel confident enough to verbalize my thoughts. There have been times when I really did not like an entry but everyone else did. Made me wonder what was wrong with my ability to distinguish between good photography and bad photography. I know a lot of it is subjective opinion, but it's hard when you feel that you are alone in an opinion.
I miss the judges and the top ten. I'm still not used to the new system. I think something is missing too, but not sure what it is.
I, too, would love to see more comments, in both the threads and in the galleries. Every instruction I've heard on giving feedback seems to be the same. Start with a positive comment, sandwich the constructive criticism in the middle, and end with a positive comment. That might be too difficulty/lengthy; but I would think that a positive comment along with each "negative" might make the criticism easier to stomach. There is usually at least ONE positive aspect of a photo, even if you don't like it.
Kate www.katetaylor.smugmug.com "You cannot depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus." Mark Twain
Diva, thank you for starting this thread. It has been reassuring to see several other members thinking/feeling the same as I do. I have also realized just how much some of the more established members do care about the community here improving as a whole.
Gretchen, thank you very much for the links. I had read the one about why to enter a contest before I submitted in the local camera shop contest for Halloween (1st Place!! ). The other link was a very interesting read that I have bookmarked. To me, it pointed out a lot of things that are so obvious I missed them instead of using them to become more active commenting.
Canon 7D, Sigma 17-70, Sigma 70-200 2.8 OS, EF 50 1.8 II, 430EXII
When I make comments, I try to think about why I do or do not like a shot instead of going with my gut reaction. There have been photos where my gut reaction was negative, but after looking at it with enough thought to make a comment, I have ended up liking the shot. And sometimes a shot I deem beautiful at a glance is only so-so after really looking at it. I try to always start a comment with what I like about the photo. Even if it's not something I like or would consider shooting, I try to put myself in the shooter's perspective to figure out what they might have seen that made them take the shot & post it.
The easiest things to specifically comment on are the composition, exposure, lighting, focus, DOF, perspective & subject matter, so when I look at a photo to critique it, I try to run through those things & make comments accordingly. I will admit that sometimes I hold off commenting because my opinions seem to be quite different than most (left field complex - everybody else likes shot #2 & I like shot #4; everybody says the lighting is fantastic & I think it's too dark, too bright, etc.).
As another newbie, I feel this is very well said by Powder. Whether challenges or even threads, a lot of times I find myself debating whether to comment or not because of my experience level as well as not wanting to "upset the order of things."
MO, Dgrin is an extremely friendly and constructive community. Still there does seem to be a pecking order (my perception) that I am still trying to comprehend. This limits some of my comments because I don't want to be the newbie that becomes known as THAT GUY, which would end up costing me the valuable, friendly advice that is available here.
I can't consider myself a newbie, but I'm not a seasoned veteran either. I've been playing in the challenges for about a year & a half. I used to feel the same way about commenting because of my lack of experience & training, but on one of the earlier challenges I entered, I posted a thread for feedback & received a range of comments from "amazing..." to "I just don't think you display that skill here." I was perplexed!! It almost made me feel like I wasn't good enough to participate, but since other comments were more positive, I basically responded that based on my research, there were "no rules" regarding the "skill" & I was going to enter my shot anyway. If anyone were to be shunned, it would have been me then & there (trust me, hours of needless worry on my part), but that has not been the case.
Everyone here seems to really want to help, albeit some are more tactful than others. It is a great community for learning. Although I think it is more important that you are comfortable and happy with your image than what anyone else thinks, considering the comments others make (regardless of agreement) is a great way to improve your photos, because it makes you think more about how you take pictures & what others see when viewing them. The range of tastes, preferences & mindsets is from one end of the spectrum to the other ~ you can't please everyone, so it's best to please yourself! And maybe it's just less annoying for me to be disappointed in not getting votes than it is to be disappointed in the photo I entered.
Without being very experienced at the challenges (have entered 2 of last 3), is it a safe/true assumption that comments fluctuate with the challenge topic? For example, the Courage/Fear challenge falling at Halloween seemed to open up a lot of obvious possibilites for entries and, IIRC, there was a fair amount of comments made on those entries.
I do think that the amount of comments seem to fluctuate with the theme - some topics leave more to the imagination than others & that can make the photos harder to critique theme-wise. How you interpret the theme influences how you view the entries & it is amazing how differently people interpret things! A photograph with great lighting, composition & focus that touches on the theme does seem to do better than a technically inferior photograph that nails the theme. So, if it is easier to comment on the technical aspects of the photograph rather than the theme, that's fine. I've seen comments before like "I don't know how this relates to the theme so I won't comment on that, but as far as the lighting, etc. ..." The themes are great to get some images rolling around in your head - a majority of the photos I have taken for the challenges I would never have considered taking otherwise, but am very happy with all the learning experiences and have some great shots that I would not have otherwise.
Gretchen - "one functioning eye" = Hilarious!!
(I wanted to say " = Really??" but laughing sarcasm doesn't post well)
:DWe were all newbies here at one time. I think my first was DSS 20. It is hard to give crituques especailly if you are not feeling worthy. But it has been the goal of the challenges I feel since the beginnings to be a place to learn and grow in both your craft and opinions. There are so many different interest here and it helps make you broaden your shooting subjects.
As far as critiqueing others just remeber the kindergarten rules be nice, play well with others and share what you have.
Above all do not take it personal what is said to you, or the responses that you get back about what you said. It is your art and opinions and post what your gut tells you to. Most of all have some fun:D
"If you like a photo, then say so. Tell the photographer what you like about it. Tell them how it made you feel, or what it made you think about. Very often, the most technically-proficient photographers are the least able to express their feelings about a photo, so people who can do that are particularly valuable critiquers.
If you see something that you don't like about a photo, then say that. You can't be wrong. If you don't like something about a photo then either the photographer intended it to be that way (in which case you simply have a difference of opinion) or the photographer didn't notice it (in which case your critique will be enlightening)."
Thank you for the congrats on the Halloween contest.
Lillian, I appreciate the comments on the last part about the assumptions. I agree with you about the broader the subject the broader the broader the interpretation. I also the recurring theme of this is for fun and to help learn to be better.
Canon 7D, Sigma 17-70, Sigma 70-200 2.8 OS, EF 50 1.8 II, 430EXII
Tom
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sapphire73Registered Users, Super ModeratorsPosts: 1,970moderator
Gretchen, thank you very much for the links. I had read the one about why to enter a contest before I submitted in the local camera shop contest for Halloween (1st Place!! ). The other link was a very interesting read that I have bookmarked. To me, it pointed out a lot of things that are so obvious I missed them instead of using them to become more active commenting.
I'm glad you found this helpful! As you know, the article suggests a variety of ways to comment on photos. It would be great if everyone could find something that works for them and is helpful to others. Thank you for your thoughtful comments on all of this!
I'm a little late to the party here but I appreciate divamum airing this topic. Personally, I'm a relative newbie and am unaware of the previous challenge rules, comments or judging; however, being self-taught, I have benefited greatly from members' comments and suggestions through this forum and the challenges themselves have really trained my eye to see. As for commenting: my biggest issue is time and beyond a "like/dislike" comment, I generally try to offer something that either hasn't been said or if the image evokes a strong feeling. At this stage in my (photo/forum) development though, I tend to steer clear of making negative or technical comments since I do not want to offend or more often, don't feel I really know what to say.
Weighing in on the judging gallery, I prefer no comments in the gallery until after voting because I think it influences the outcome and it's not as pure. I vote for keeping the comments in the forum.
And finally, I never really knew that Sean's efforts were volunteer so I am glad to be enlightened on that and, Sean, I don't know how you do it!!
sapphire73Registered Users, Super ModeratorsPosts: 1,970moderator
edited November 20, 2011
Just want to check back on comments in the galleries. There is one comment there now - posted before Divamum initiated this useful discussion. Is there a consensus to hold off on further comments until after the voting? And if so, should "we" [someone] post a gallery wide comment/request to that effect in case someone has missed this thread?
My own rule of thumb for commenting is basically WWH:
- WHAT I don't like
- WHY I don't like it
- HOW it might be altered/improved
If something is obviously a matter of my own personal taste, I acknowledge that, and I certainly don't take offense if somebody tells me that an image doesn't work for them; if you read back through feedback threads, you will often find strongly diverging (often diametrically opposed!) opinions!
I agree with many of Divamum's comments, but I think that there is one part missing. I try to point out what I do like. I think about how discouraging it would be for the receiver to get nothing but criticism, constructive but criticism, so I try to end with something good. I think Andy calls it the hamburger approach.
Great discussion. Thanks again DM for bringing it up again.
My feelings have not changed since this POST from July. http://dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=198949
I've gotten so frustrated with the lack of quality commentary in the gallery, that I rarely will comment on more than a couple images. And few of my comments have substance. And any of you that know me or have been out to my dgrin challenges galleries, know that I always have an opinion or something to say....
What I did not say in any of my responses from the previous POST, were my feelings on commentary in the Threads.
Not everyone POST's there. Of 40 images...maybe 10 will get pre-POSTED. So some critcal commentary inevitably will land in the Gallery.
90-95% of the time I won't pre-POST my image in the thread. I don't pre-POST because I want my image to be mine. My vision. I'll live or die (mainly die....:o) ) by that vision.
The times when I have pre-POSTED was because I was desparate for some confirmation that someone was looking at what I shot. )
With regard to a couple things I've seen written....
- Posting comments after the voting. I wrote in the linked thread...the moment is gone at that point. I believe the # of views drops significantly 24hours after the voting is opened up. I've moved on, once I vote. I'll go out to see if anyone has added comments after 72hours, and it seems rare. I'm going to go back to my old system of POSTING my comments after the close of the contest and I vote. Just don't look at them, if you're worried about what I, or anyone else, may have to say will sway your judging. The images are re-posted in the the Voting Thread, so that would be another option for not having to risk seeing commentary.
- Changing back to 2 judge system. Although I'm in favor of it, it makes for alot of work for Sean to wrangle judges, etc. I feel that was a part of the reason for the change, was because life happens, and sometimes judges are tied up in life. Look at MiniChallenges for confirmation on that. )
I agree with many of Divamum's comments, but I think that there is one part missing. I try to point out what I do like. I think about how discouraging it would be for the receiver to get nothing but criticism, constructive but criticism, so I try to end with something good. I think Andy calls it the hamburger approach.
You are exactly right, BB - that is a VERY important thing to include. You're also right in that I (mistakenly) left that out of my earlier statement! (I"ve gone go back and amended to make it clear that my WWH was only addressing how to express a reservation, rather than that any comment should ONLY include reservations )
I ABSOLUTELY believe that a positive comment should be in there too!!! For sure, and I think anybody who's read my comments would agree that's my approach in practice, even if I didn't express that very well above
Just want to check back on comments in the galleries. There is one comment there now - posted before Divamum initiated this useful discussion. Is there a consensus to hold off on further comments until after the voting? And if so, should "we" [someone] post a gallery wide comment/request to that effect in case someone has missed this thread?
Cheers,
Gretchen
Just reading this. Although I'm not in favor of it, I'll definitely abide if that's what the Challenges decide. It should be noted in the un-official rules.
You are exactly right, BB - that is a VERY important thing to include. You're also right in that I (mistakenly) left that out of my earlier statement! (I"ve gone go back and amended to make it clear that my WWH was only addressing how to express a reservation, rather than that any comment should ONLY include reservations )
I ABSOLUTELY believe that a positive comment should be in there too!!! For sure, and I think anybody who's read my comments would agree that's my approach in practice, even if I didn't express that very well above
This was a response I wrote a few months back on this.....
I'm not sure I accept the 'not qualified to comment' argument. This community is filled with talented shooters. And we don't submit such wonderful imagery without knowing a little about how to compose and post. And I guarantee you, once you start, you'll be hooked.
We're all on the same level here. Whether we've had formal training, or we're self-taught, I guarantee you that 100% of us have a thirst to continue to learn and grow as photographers. Commentary helps in that process. I've written to it a couple of times that it's selfish for me. I learn so much from it. From others, but mainly from my own efforts. It forces me to define what I like or may question, and reinforces that for me when I go out and shoot. But equally as important, it is an acknowledgement to the photographer that you appreciate their efforts. That someone LOOKED and spent time on the image. I agree it's hard...and it's TIIIIIIME CONSUMING ).... but for me, it's something I enjoy and learn from.
My personal way to comment is to remind myself that we all see the world differently. So what I may or may not find appealing, is my opinion only. I try never to say to another photographer, they should have done this or should have done that. I try to only say how the image effects 'me'. Whether the comp works, or areas of brightness are too distracting, or if I want more story....for 'me, personally'. And I LOVE it when someone adds their own commentary that opposes what I thought or answers my commentary on their photo. Greg answered my trouble 'getting over the fence' in his image of 'The Sea Hermits Shack', and I cannot imagine that fence NOT being there now. It was beautiful. I also have new 'vision' of other images after reading some other's commentary. This happens for me every round where there is meanful commentary.
I think the last thing to remember is that we are all nice people. There is not a thread that I've read ( I could be Dr.Suess... ) ) that doesn't have this air of sweetness about it, if that makes sense. Everyone seems to truly care about each other, and wants each to grow.....ahh the digital community.... )
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sapphire73Registered Users, Super ModeratorsPosts: 1,970moderator
This was a response I wrote a few months back on this.....
I'm not sure I accept the 'not qualified to comment' argument. This community is filled with talented shooters. And we don't submit such wonderful imagery without knowing a little about how to compose and post. And I guarantee you, once you start, you'll be hooked.
We're all on the same level here. Whether we've had formal training, or we're self-taught, I guarantee you that 100% of us have a thirst to continue to learn and grow as photographers. Commentary helps in that process. I've written to it a couple of times that it's selfish for me. I learn so much from it. From others, but mainly from my own efforts. It forces me to define what I like or may question, and reinforces that for me when I go out and shoot. But equally as important, it is an acknowledgement to the photographer that you appreciate their efforts. That someone LOOKED and spent time on the image. I agree it's hard...and it's TIIIIIIME CONSUMING ).... but for me, it's something I enjoy and learn from.
My personal way to comment is to remind myself that we all see the world differently. So what I may or may not find appealing, is my opinion only. I try never to say to another photographer, they should have done this or should have done that. I try to only say how the image effects 'me'. Whether the comp works, or areas of brightness are too distracting, or if I want more story....for 'me, personally'. And I LOVE it when someone adds their own commentary that opposes what I thought or answers my commentary on their photo. Greg answered my trouble 'getting over the fence' in his image of 'The Sea Hermits Shack', and I cannot imagine that fence NOT being there now. It was beautiful. I also have new 'vision' of other images after reading some other's commentary. This happens for me every round where there is meanful commentary.
I think the last thing to remember is that we are all nice people. There is not a thread that I've read ( I could be Dr.Suess... ) ) that doesn't have this air of sweetness about it, if that makes sense. Everyone seems to truly care about each other, and wants each to grow.....ahh the digital community.... )
Froch, so glad you reposted this! Your words of wisdom are a welcome addition to the discussion here. And we've (I've) definitely missed your voice in the gallery comments!
sapphire73Registered Users, Super ModeratorsPosts: 1,970moderator
edited November 21, 2011
A couple of people have suggested that those who place in the top 5 in a challenge try to comment on all the photos in the next round. Do we want to follow through on that? And do we want to continue to comment whenever or try to hold them until the voting is over? I'm asking because I offered to try to make comments this next time, but would be somewhat hesitant to comment on photos while the poll is still open. We can usually avoid looking at the gallery but there may be times (like last time) when the images aren't in the polls at first. On the other hand, folks are going to feel discouraged if they take the time to post comments and no one looks at them. Just wondering if there is any consensus before this discussion sinks lower on boards....
The thing that is hard here is that the people we are critiquing are the same people that are voting on our entries. It's easy to say that does not sway decisions, but human nature is what it is.
Comments in the challenge gallery have seldom changed my mind or swayed my decisions, but it has happened once or twice that I can remember.
Paul - I wouldn't use "not qualified to comment" as an excuse to get out of it. I've actually commented quite a bit, but generally more on the entries that I liked and not the ones that I didn't like. I like your word 'nit' because you make it seem like a very small, inconsequential matter. I need my own buzz word.
Gretchen - I like your idea. Only time will tell what is the best way to go.
The thing that is hard here is that the people we are critiquing are the same people that are voting on our entries.
I think you have nailed why commenting was easier when there were two "official" judges making the first cut on the entries. Now that it's entirely done by poll, the dynamic is indeed a little more complicated!
Gretchen, I personally would LOVE to see it made part of the rules that as a condition of their win the top 5 need to comment in the galleries after the polling has closed
Sometimes, it's difficult to take the criticism, but I know if I can get through the disappointment of not doing very well, that perhaps my next try will be better and improved. I'm really hard on myself when I don't get something right the first time and want to give up, but I know there are many very talented photogs here who give great advice, so I try to wait a day after I get a critique and go back and read what they've said and then try again. I always hope my next try will get a good review and a "you've improved!" from the pros here. THAT means a lot because it isn't given out frivolously... if I get a "you've improved" I know I really HAVE improved.
I regret not being able to be more active here. I also find the comments very helpful... sometimes not until too late, since I rarely have time to re-shoot once I have an entry in...
Thank you Divamum, Jeffro, Richtersl for your comments on my photo in the entry gallery - Thanks to all that put a comment under each and every photo... I wish I had the time (because I certainly have the desire) to comment on each entry.
Fwiw, it took me maybe 15 minutes or so to comment on all the photos in the last round; I've already formulated my thoughts about some of them when I looked at them at voting time, and for the rest I just steam through the gallery taking a minute or two for each shot. This post has taken longer to write, fwiw I don't (can't) do every single one when it's one of the bigger entries, but I do try to comment on as many as I realistically can. In the interest of full disclosure I admit that I deal with this kind of artistic feedback every day of my professional life - whether as voice teacher giving feedback or singer receiving it from various sources - so it's comfortable for me to comment on other people's work (in what I hope is a construtive manner!), but fwiw.
I do think when people start to see "criticism" as "analysis" rather than "judgement", it becomes easier both to give and receive. "That crop might have been more effective a little tighter" doesn't mean "you are a bad person who sucks at photography". It means "try another crop and see if it works any better".
I go through this entire discussion a LOT with my beginner students who just aren't used to this kind of process (and it is a process, and a never-ending one at that!). Once they realise that feedback - pro or con - really means "how it can be made better" rather than "it was bad", their growth process really moves forward, often at alarming speed!
Jenn, in regard to comments you made earlier about not feeling you knew how to analyse a photo, and then later saying you never quite understand why people do/don't like things you have done: those two facts are related. The more you can MAKE yourself be specific in analysing other people's work, the more you can analyse your own, and better understand the feedback folks offer. It may seem counterintuitive, but I can assure you that they're two halves of the exactly the same thing.
Suggestions of possible things to consider when analysing a photo:
- technical basics: exposure, sharpness
- use of light
- use of colour
- composition (rule of 3rds? Too loose to focus on subject? Too tight to feel comfortable? Distracting backgrounds/extraneous features?)
- effectiveness of crop
- Emotional response to subject matter: thought-provoking, palatable/unpalatable, themeworthy/off-topic et
- basic aesthetics: is shot harmonious? Full of tension? Clear message? Eye goes through photo in logical manner?
- Subjective, non-analytical emotional response - iow, did you have a strong instinctive like/not like for no obvious reason you can think of?
I tend to spend a lot of time analyzing a photo, so it's more like 5 minutes a piece... but I just went in and added a comment to each photo on the "gratitude or ingratitude" challenge. I've sort of forgotten what I'd said in the feedback threads, but the act of writing something about every photo really made me think about what was there. I realize the complicated nature of judging by open polling, but if everyone who voted did this (or just two people, even, if their votes decide who wins) I think the challenges would be a lot more instructive. Not that I want to create a headache for Sean, who's been doing an excellent job of overseeing the challenges for a while now.
Jenn, in regard to comments you made earlier about not feeling you knew how to analyse a photo, and then later saying you never quite understand why people do/don't like things you have done: those two facts are related. The more you can MAKE yourself be specific in analysing other people's work, the more you can analyse your own, and better understand the feedback folks offer. It may seem counterintuitive, but I can assure you that they're two halves of the exactly the same thing.
Suggestions of possible things to consider when analysing a photo:
- technical basics: exposure, sharpness
- use of light
- use of colour
- composition (rule of 3rds? Too loose to focus on subject? Too tight to feel comfortable? Distracting backgrounds/extraneous features?)
I think I understand most of this part of the list, but not sure what you mean by 'too loose to focus on subject or too tight to feel comfortable'. Also, I've seen photos that had all sorts of background and extraneous features, but they were said to be great photos. So, I try to copy something similar to get that method down, and my photo is said to not be good at all. I look at mine, then look at the one I'm trying to immitate a technique and can't really see why their bg is any better than my bg. So I'm left doing this - > I've also seen photos that weren't in focus, but got reviews that said it was a great photo... I'm left doing this quite a lot ...
- effectiveness of crop
- Emotional response to subject matter: thought-provoking, palatable/unpalatable, themeworthy/off-topic et
- basic aesthetics: is shot harmonious? Full of tension? Clear message? Eye goes through photo in logical manner?
- Subjective, non-analytical emotional response - iow, did you have a strong instinctive like/not like for no obvious reason you can think of?
These things here ^ just seem about as easy to grasp as a molecule of air for me. Aren't they subjective depending on each individual? What do they look like? I have no idea what a harmonious, or palatable, or full of tension shot looks like. I just know what I like and most often can find something I like/dislike in nearly every photo here. For example, I really liked the photo titled 'Family Jewels" 2b on the grey background, but most everyone else preferred it on a black background. So I did another shoot with a black background. I like it too. Why 2b wasn't good enough I don't understand because I liked it.. {{bangs head on desk}}
ALL of it is subjective - art is subjective by definition! Other than (possibly) accurate exposure and focal sharpness (and even those have areas of effectiveness depending on what the photographer is trying to do with the image), you can't quantify what is "good" or "right". in a photo, only that it works effectively to communicate what it wants to, or that it doesn't (and that's further complicated by the fact that nobody will have exactly the same reaction).
You can see what other artists have done and decide why a certain shot works for YOU. You can read up on art and photo theory and learn what is considered optimum technical proficiency You can look at classic paintings and see how those artists, revered over the centuries, have used certain technical things to create THEIR vision in THEIR way.
Have you considered taking an art history class at your local community college or somewhere, to try and get more comfortable analysing/expressing your reactions in response to others' images? It might help you see past "I like it" or "I don't like it" into the technical details and how those add up to create different effects. By doing it with art rather than photography, perhaps you won't feel so connected to the objects in the real world, and it will help you analyse what you see through the viewfinder. Just a thought. Ultimately, there is no "right" or "wrong", but it can be helpful to know the rules before we break them
Addendum: I actually was just pointed to this to help some students deal with performance anxiety, but the first few paragraphs are very applicable to this discussion too, in regard to how subjective opinions work - just substitute "photograph" for "performance" or "presentation" or "movie". Here's the passage that jumped out at me (bold emphases mine):
Four Elements of any Value Assessment 1) The valuer (the person doing the assessing or evaluation) 2) The valued (the someone or something being valued) 3) The evaluation itself (good/bad, etc.) 4) The criteria being used for making the evaluation
Let’s say I am onstage. Someone in the audience (“Jane”) is checking her watch, thinking my presentation is too long (low value), and we’d sort it out like this:
Who is doing the evaluation? Jane What is being valued? My presentation What is the evaluation? Too long, bad According to what criteria? ????
Hmm… Good question. We don’t know what criteria Jane is using for what constitutes bad. Only Jane knows that! She may prefer facts to personal stories and thus dismisses my story-filled presentation. She may be at my presentation through no desire of her own. Meanwhile I presume her clock-watching to mean I am boring her, that my presentation is bad, that I am a bad speaker. One thing is sure, I am not factoring in that Jane is judging my presentation according to the particular criteria she brought with her that day.
Here is another example: Picture two friends (Jack and Jill) walking out of a movie. They each have strong opinions about the movie. To Jack, it was a bad movie, boring, at two hours lasting way too long. To Jill, it was a good movie, much better than the one she saw the night before, and even at two hours, not long enough.
Was the movie good or bad? If you answer BOTH, think it through. In a factual sense, can the same movie be good AND bad? If it’s good, how can it be bad? The only way to make sense of a movie being both good and bad is to realize that the goodness and badness does not exist IN the movie, but IN Jack and IN Jill as a reflection of how the movie matches their individual criteria. {DM: The MAIN POINT in how subjective assessment works, IMO - also, how commenting helps elaborate THAT PERSON'S criteria for a shot, taking as back to WHAT one likes/doesn't like, WHY one likes/doesn't like it and HOW it can be brought closer to what one likes/doesn't like}
Since Jack loves action and speed, he was bored… Thus it was a bad movie.Since Jill is comparing it to the lousy one she saw last night, the movie was good.But you can bet Jack and Jill don’t realize this. They argue about whether it was a good movie or a bad movie, not factoring in they are each judging the movie using different criteria! Meanwhile the movie just sits there being itself in all its movie-ness, not taking the conversation personally.
That day of the workshop I didn’t fully understand that every value judgment was inextricably linked to the criteria the valuer was using; it was not a factual statement about the person or thing being valued. True understanding would come later. What I did sense was a shift of focus away from me and how good or bad I was and onto something called criteria — something that was way over in the other person’s court.
Or was it? If ensuring a good time for the audience was an impossible endeavor, and their judgments of me did not define my worth, the ball was actually back in MY court. What did I value? What would be good from my viewpoint? Where would I find the answer to such unfamiliar questions?
I had never heard the term personal value register.But it seems we all have one built into us so we can answer such questions. The term value register refers to an aspect of our being that seems so normal that we take it for granted, or never think to name it. It explains the personal nature of our likes and dislikes.
sapphire73Registered Users, Super ModeratorsPosts: 1,970moderator
edited November 24, 2011
Divamum, thanks for continuing the conversation with your helpful posts on giving input on each other's photos. Just bumped into an article on Reading a Photograph which some may find interesting.
ALL of it is subjective - art is subjective by definition! Other than (possibly) accurate exposure and focal sharpness (and even those have areas of effectiveness depending on what the photographer is trying to do with the image), you can't quantify what is "good" or "right". in a photo, only that it works effectively to communicate what it wants to, or that it doesn't (and that's further complicated by the fact that nobody will have exactly the same reaction).
You can see what other artists have done and decide why a certain shot works for YOU. You can read up on art and photo theory and learn what is considered optimum technical proficiency You can look at classic paintings and see how those artists, revered over the centuries, have used certain technical things to create THEIR vision in THEIR way.
Have you considered taking an art history class at your local community college or somewhere, to try and get more comfortable analysing/expressing your reactions in response to others' images? It might help you see past "I like it" or "I don't like it" into the technical details and how those add up to create different effects. By doing it with art rather than photography, perhaps you won't feel so connected to the objects in the real world, and it will help you analyse what you see through the viewfinder. Just a thought. Ultimately, there is no "right" or "wrong", but it can be helpful to know the rules before we break them
Well... I've been learning the rules along the way.. just haven't figured out why it's good to break them!
Late to add here, I know... a couple quick things:
1 - Do not be afraid to comment on something you don't like. I am a total weirdo and always the odd one out. Most everyone will love something and I'll be the one dissenter saying that the image doesn't do it for me. I've also had the reverse experience where everyone else dislikes something and I'll be the one saying that I totally love it. Whatever, put your opinion out there and the photographer can take it or leave it.
2 - I'm 100% for posting your shots in the forum before entering it into the gallery. I grew SO MUCH by posting and getting feedback in the forum while I was active in the challenges. It was so, so important to me to refine before entering. Also, I agree that the forum should be the place for C&C while the gallery comments should be for final 'atta boys/girls'.
3 - Everyone needs to comment if everyone wants to grow. It's a community, yeah? Let's all help each other become better photographers. I pledge to comment on images posted in the forum.
Comments
I miss the judges and the top ten. I'm still not used to the new system. I think something is missing too, but not sure what it is.
If I could tell the story in words, I wouldn't need to lug around a camera. ~Lewis Hine
http://sandizphotos-seascapes.smugmug.com/
www.katetaylor.smugmug.com
"You cannot depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus." Mark Twain
Gretchen, thank you very much for the links. I had read the one about why to enter a contest before I submitted in the local camera shop contest for Halloween (1st Place!!
Tom
The easiest things to specifically comment on are the composition, exposure, lighting, focus, DOF, perspective & subject matter, so when I look at a photo to critique it, I try to run through those things & make comments accordingly. I will admit that sometimes I hold off commenting because my opinions seem to be quite different than most (left field complex - everybody else likes shot #2 & I like shot #4; everybody says the lighting is fantastic & I think it's too dark, too bright, etc.). I can't consider myself a newbie, but I'm not a seasoned veteran either. I've been playing in the challenges for about a year & a half. I used to feel the same way about commenting because of my lack of experience & training, but on one of the earlier challenges I entered, I posted a thread for feedback & received a range of comments from "amazing..." to "I just don't think you display that skill here." I was perplexed!! It almost made me feel like I wasn't good enough to participate, but since other comments were more positive, I basically responded that based on my research, there were "no rules" regarding the "skill" & I was going to enter my shot anyway. If anyone were to be shunned, it would have been me then & there (trust me, hours of needless worry on my part), but that has not been the case.
Everyone here seems to really want to help, albeit some are more tactful than others. It is a great community for learning. Although I think it is more important that you are comfortable and happy with your image than what anyone else thinks, considering the comments others make (regardless of agreement) is a great way to improve your photos, because it makes you think more about how you take pictures & what others see when viewing them. The range of tastes, preferences & mindsets is from one end of the spectrum to the other ~ you can't please everyone, so it's best to please yourself! And maybe it's just less annoying for me to be disappointed in not getting votes than it is to be disappointed in the photo I entered. I do think that the amount of comments seem to fluctuate with the theme - some topics leave more to the imagination than others & that can make the photos harder to critique theme-wise. How you interpret the theme influences how you view the entries & it is amazing how differently people interpret things! A photograph with great lighting, composition & focus that touches on the theme does seem to do better than a technically inferior photograph that nails the theme. So, if it is easier to comment on the technical aspects of the photograph rather than the theme, that's fine. I've seen comments before like "I don't know how this relates to the theme so I won't comment on that, but as far as the lighting, etc. ..." The themes are great to get some images rolling around in your head - a majority of the photos I have taken for the challenges I would never have considered taking otherwise, but am very happy with all the learning experiences and have some great shots that I would not have otherwise.
Gretchen - "one functioning eye" = Hilarious!!
(I wanted to say " = Really??" but laughing sarcasm doesn't post well)
divmedic4 - Congrats on the Halloween victory!
A photograph is an artistic expression of life, captured one moment at a time . . .
http://bartlettphotoart.smugmug.com/
As far as critiqueing others just remeber the kindergarten rules be nice, play well with others and share what you have.
Above all do not take it personal what is said to you, or the responses that you get back about what you said. It is your art and opinions and post what your gut tells you to.
Most of all have some fun:D
http://kadvantage.smugmug.com/
Just keep in mind that those clever words are not mine. I laughed out loud when I read them!
Also from How to Critique a Photo:
"If you like a photo, then say so. Tell the photographer what you like about it. Tell them how it made you feel, or what it made you think about. Very often, the most technically-proficient photographers are the least able to express their feelings about a photo, so people who can do that are particularly valuable critiquers.
If you see something that you don't like about a photo, then say that. You can't be wrong. If you don't like something about a photo then either the photographer intended it to be that way (in which case you simply have a difference of opinion) or the photographer didn't notice it (in which case your critique will be enlightening)."
Lots of good stuff here!
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Lillian, I appreciate the comments on the last part about the assumptions. I agree with you about the broader the subject the broader the broader the interpretation. I also the recurring theme of this is for fun and to help learn to be better.
Tom
I'm glad you found this helpful! As you know, the article suggests a variety of ways to comment on photos. It would be great if everyone could find something that works for them and is helpful to others. Thank you for your thoughtful comments on all of this!
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Weighing in on the judging gallery, I prefer no comments in the gallery until after voting because I think it influences the outcome and it's not as pure. I vote for keeping the comments in the forum.
And finally, I never really knew that Sean's efforts were volunteer so I am glad to be enlightened on that and, Sean, I don't know how you do it!!
Cheers,
Gretchen
My SmugMug Galleries
I agree with many of Divamum's comments, but I think that there is one part missing. I try to point out what I do like. I think about how discouraging it would be for the receiver to get nothing but criticism, constructive but criticism, so I try to end with something good. I think Andy calls it the hamburger approach.
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My feelings have not changed since this POST from July.
http://dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=198949
I've gotten so frustrated with the lack of quality commentary in the gallery, that I rarely will comment on more than a couple images. And few of my comments have substance. And any of you that know me or have been out to my dgrin challenges galleries, know that I always have an opinion or something to say....
What I did not say in any of my responses from the previous POST, were my feelings on commentary in the Threads.
Not everyone POST's there. Of 40 images...maybe 10 will get pre-POSTED. So some critcal commentary inevitably will land in the Gallery.
90-95% of the time I won't pre-POST my image in the thread. I don't pre-POST because I want my image to be mine. My vision. I'll live or die (mainly die....:o) ) by that vision.
The times when I have pre-POSTED was because I was desparate for some confirmation that someone was looking at what I shot.
With regard to a couple things I've seen written....
- Posting comments after the voting. I wrote in the linked thread...the moment is gone at that point. I believe the # of views drops significantly 24hours after the voting is opened up. I've moved on, once I vote. I'll go out to see if anyone has added comments after 72hours, and it seems rare. I'm going to go back to my old system of POSTING my comments after the close of the contest and I vote. Just don't look at them, if you're worried about what I, or anyone else, may have to say will sway your judging. The images are re-posted in the the Voting Thread, so that would be another option for not having to risk seeing commentary.
- Changing back to 2 judge system. Although I'm in favor of it, it makes for alot of work for Sean to wrangle judges, etc. I feel that was a part of the reason for the change, was because life happens, and sometimes judges are tied up in life. Look at MiniChallenges for confirmation on that.
Great discussion!
You are exactly right, BB - that is a VERY important thing to include. You're also right in that I (mistakenly) left that out of my earlier statement! (I"ve gone go back and amended to make it clear that my WWH was only addressing how to express a reservation, rather than that any comment should ONLY include reservations
I ABSOLUTELY believe that a positive comment should be in there too!!! For sure, and I think anybody who's read my comments would agree that's my approach in practice, even if I didn't express that very well above
Just reading this. Although I'm not in favor of it, I'll definitely abide if that's what the Challenges decide. It should be noted in the un-official rules.
This was a response I wrote a few months back on this.....
I'm not sure I accept the 'not qualified to comment' argument. This community is filled with talented shooters. And we don't submit such wonderful imagery without knowing a little about how to compose and post. And I guarantee you, once you start, you'll be hooked.
We're all on the same level here. Whether we've had formal training, or we're self-taught, I guarantee you that 100% of us have a thirst to continue to learn and grow as photographers. Commentary helps in that process. I've written to it a couple of times that it's selfish for me. I learn so much from it. From others, but mainly from my own efforts. It forces me to define what I like or may question, and reinforces that for me when I go out and shoot. But equally as important, it is an acknowledgement to the photographer that you appreciate their efforts. That someone LOOKED and spent time on the image. I agree it's hard...and it's TIIIIIIME CONSUMING
My personal way to comment is to remind myself that we all see the world differently. So what I may or may not find appealing, is my opinion only. I try never to say to another photographer, they should have done this or should have done that. I try to only say how the image effects 'me'. Whether the comp works, or areas of brightness are too distracting, or if I want more story....for 'me, personally'. And I LOVE it when someone adds their own commentary that opposes what I thought or answers my commentary on their photo. Greg answered my trouble 'getting over the fence' in his image of 'The Sea Hermits Shack', and I cannot imagine that fence NOT being there now. It was beautiful. I also have new 'vision' of other images after reading some other's commentary. This happens for me every round where there is meanful commentary.
I think the last thing to remember is that we are all nice people. There is not a thread that I've read ( I could be Dr.Suess...
Froch, so glad you reposted this! Your words of wisdom are a welcome addition to the discussion here. And we've (I've) definitely missed your voice in the gallery comments!
Gretchen
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Gretchen
My SmugMug Galleries
Comments in the challenge gallery have seldom changed my mind or swayed my decisions, but it has happened once or twice that I can remember.
Paul - I wouldn't use "not qualified to comment" as an excuse to get out of it. I've actually commented quite a bit, but generally more on the entries that I liked and not the ones that I didn't like. I like your word 'nit' because you make it seem like a very small, inconsequential matter. I need my own buzz word.
Gretchen - I like your idea. Only time will tell what is the best way to go.
If I could tell the story in words, I wouldn't need to lug around a camera. ~Lewis Hine
http://sandizphotos-seascapes.smugmug.com/
I think you have nailed why commenting was easier when there were two "official" judges making the first cut on the entries. Now that it's entirely done by poll, the dynamic is indeed a little more complicated!
Gretchen, I personally would LOVE to see it made part of the rules that as a condition of their win the top 5 need to comment in the galleries after the polling has closed
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Thank you Divamum, Jeffro, Richtersl for your comments on my photo in the entry gallery - Thanks to all that put a comment under each and every photo... I wish I had the time (because I certainly have the desire) to comment on each entry.
Jake
I do think when people start to see "criticism" as "analysis" rather than "judgement", it becomes easier both to give and receive. "That crop might have been more effective a little tighter" doesn't mean "you are a bad person who sucks at photography". It means "try another crop and see if it works any better".
I go through this entire discussion a LOT with my beginner students who just aren't used to this kind of process (and it is a process, and a never-ending one at that!). Once they realise that feedback - pro or con - really means "how it can be made better" rather than "it was bad", their growth process really moves forward, often at alarming speed!
Jenn, in regard to comments you made earlier about not feeling you knew how to analyse a photo, and then later saying you never quite understand why people do/don't like things you have done: those two facts are related. The more you can MAKE yourself be specific in analysing other people's work, the more you can analyse your own, and better understand the feedback folks offer. It may seem counterintuitive, but I can assure you that they're two halves of the exactly the same thing.
Suggestions of possible things to consider when analysing a photo:
- technical basics: exposure, sharpness
- use of light
- use of colour
- composition (rule of 3rds? Too loose to focus on subject? Too tight to feel comfortable? Distracting backgrounds/extraneous features?)
- effectiveness of crop
- Emotional response to subject matter: thought-provoking, palatable/unpalatable, themeworthy/off-topic et
- basic aesthetics: is shot harmonious? Full of tension? Clear message? Eye goes through photo in logical manner?
- Subjective, non-analytical emotional response - iow, did you have a strong instinctive like/not like for no obvious reason you can think of?
Jake
These things here ^ just seem about as easy to grasp as a molecule of air for me.
Is my babbling making any sense? :-)
Panasonic Lumix 10x DMC-TZ3 :photo
Leica Mega O.I.S./28mm WIDE :smile6
You can see what other artists have done and decide why a certain shot works for YOU. You can read up on art and photo theory and learn what is considered optimum technical proficiency You can look at classic paintings and see how those artists, revered over the centuries, have used certain technical things to create THEIR vision in THEIR way.
Have you considered taking an art history class at your local community college or somewhere, to try and get more comfortable analysing/expressing your reactions in response to others' images? It might help you see past "I like it" or "I don't like it" into the technical details and how those add up to create different effects. By doing it with art rather than photography, perhaps you won't feel so connected to the objects in the real world, and it will help you analyse what you see through the viewfinder. Just a thought. Ultimately, there is no "right" or "wrong", but it can be helpful to know the rules before we break them
Four Elements of any Value Assessment
Let’s say I am onstage. Someone in the audience (“Jane”) is checking her watch, thinking my presentation is too long (low value), and we’d sort it out like this:
Hmm… Good question. We don’t know what criteria Jane is using for what constitutes bad. Only Jane knows that! She may prefer facts to personal stories and thus dismisses my story-filled presentation. She may be at my presentation through no desire of her own. Meanwhile I presume her clock-watching to mean I am boring her, that my presentation is bad, that I am a bad speaker. One thing is sure, I am not factoring in that Jane is judging my presentation according to the particular criteria she brought with her that day.
Here is another example:
Picture two friends (Jack and Jill) walking out of a movie. They each have strong opinions about the movie. To Jack, it was a bad movie, boring, at two hours lasting way too long. To Jill, it was a good movie, much better than the one she saw the night before, and even at two hours, not long enough.
Was the movie good or bad? If you answer BOTH, think it through. In a factual sense, can the same movie be good AND bad? If it’s good, how can it be bad? The only way to make sense of a movie being both good and bad is to realize that the goodness and badness does not exist IN the movie, but IN Jack and IN Jill as a reflection of how the movie matches their individual criteria. {DM: The MAIN POINT in how subjective assessment works, IMO - also, how commenting helps elaborate THAT PERSON'S criteria for a shot, taking as back to WHAT one likes/doesn't like, WHY one likes/doesn't like it and HOW it can be brought closer to what one likes/doesn't like}
Since Jack loves action and speed, he was bored… Thus it was a bad movie.Since Jill is comparing it to the lousy one she saw last night, the movie was good. But you can bet Jack and Jill don’t realize this. They argue about whether it was a good movie or a bad movie, not factoring in they are each judging the movie using different criteria! Meanwhile the movie just sits there being itself in all its movie-ness, not taking the conversation personally.
That day of the workshop I didn’t fully understand that every value judgment was inextricably linked to the criteria the valuer was using; it was not a factual statement about the person or thing being valued. True understanding would come later. What I did sense was a shift of focus away from me and how good or bad I was and onto something called criteria — something that was way over in the other person’s court.
Or was it? If ensuring a good time for the audience was an impossible endeavor, and their judgments of me did not define my worth, the ball was actually back in MY court. What did I value? What would be good from my viewpoint? Where would I find the answer to such unfamiliar questions?
I had never heard the term personal value register. But it seems we all have one built into us so we can answer such questions. The term value register refers to an aspect of our being that seems so normal that we take it for granted, or never think to name it. It explains the personal nature of our likes and dislikes.
Cheers,
Gretchen
My SmugMug Galleries
Well... I've been learning the rules along the way.. just haven't figured out why it's good to break them!
Panasonic Lumix 10x DMC-TZ3 :photo
Leica Mega O.I.S./28mm WIDE :smile6
1 - Do not be afraid to comment on something you don't like. I am a total weirdo and always the odd one out. Most everyone will love something and I'll be the one dissenter saying that the image doesn't do it for me. I've also had the reverse experience where everyone else dislikes something and I'll be the one saying that I totally love it. Whatever, put your opinion out there and the photographer can take it or leave it.
2 - I'm 100% for posting your shots in the forum before entering it into the gallery. I grew SO MUCH by posting and getting feedback in the forum while I was active in the challenges. It was so, so important to me to refine before entering. Also, I agree that the forum should be the place for C&C while the gallery comments should be for final 'atta boys/girls'.
3 - Everyone needs to comment if everyone wants to grow. It's a community, yeah? Let's all help each other become better photographers. I pledge to comment on images posted in the forum.
4 - Divamum rocks for bringing this up
Spread the love! Go comment on something!