Abusive Comments and Thumbs Up/Down

1235

Comments

  • AndyAndy Registered Users Posts: 50,154 Major grins
    edited May 31, 2012
    Hershy wrote: »
    My question is, if you could take off the feature from the Daily gallery why can't it also be done at the other?
    It's a customization on the part of the Daily Photos Community Owner (Rainforest) on his site.
  • Lemur LoverLemur Lover Registered Users Posts: 180 Major grins
    edited June 1, 2012
    Forgive my ignorance on all this, but can someone please direct me to an info page that explains the purpose of the thumbs up and thumbs down as well as the star ratings, that also lets me know where I can see the results of both thumbs up and thumbs down, and how any of this may help benefit me as a Pro SmugMugger?

    Also direction to anything written explaining what the “dailies” are all about and if one needs to join or subscribe would be useful, thanks in advance!

    On a side note, of all photo-sharing sites I've ever participated on, the one where my work has always attracted most attention is 500px - though I'm certainly not here to plug them, what immediately caught my interest reading the opening post on this thread was how the very same controversial issue over there is also one being raised over here on SmugMug.

    While not trying to draw comparisons, I can tell you that “disliking” (or perhaps more aptly put: targeted dislike abuse) is the main reason why so many pro photographers have left 500px and is a major frustration for many more 500px members who love everything else about the site yet are clearly at odds as to whether they should simply suck it up or leave.

    No doubt the owners of 500px have been long fed up of the continuing deluge of complaints they've received regarding dislike abuse (which is thought to come about largely by some people wanting to curtail the the advancement of a popular image in the hope theirs will jump ahead by default) and constant requests, pleas, and in some cases demands for the dislike feature to be completely removed is, to my mind, having the exact opposite effect; it almost seems like the owner's are trying to send the message that “it's our wesbite and you can't make us do anything we don't want to”, even though surely they must be aware that by removing this one and seemingly only flaw they could catapult 500px's popularity even higher and draw in (not to mention draw back) many more members. It seems to me like a case of cutting one's nose to spite one's face.

    Just to underline: I'm not trying to suggest this is what's going on here by any means and, and in both my research and experience SmugMug usually goes out of their way to not only listen when members have something to say but take things on board and make changes and improvements where possible.

    My personal opinion is that thumbs down or dislike buttons have nothing of value to offer on photo-sharing sites like, SmugMug, 500px, Flickr or any other; if there is a place for things like this it should surely be on photography critique forums, of which there are many to be found on the internet and where comments explaining why something is not to someone else's liking or suggestions on how something could be improved on are not only accepted but encouraged by photographers posting their work.

    This isn't directed specifically to Kara above (and I sincerely hope you don't mind me sharing my opinion on this), but I see members over on 500px (though Kara's the first person I've come across over here) that states in their bio or together with photos they've uploaded that what they're hoping for is other photographers that they hold in high esteem will chip in with some suggestions and advice that may help them improve. Yet in all the time I've been on 500px I've rarely ever seen a more experienced photographer offering any such support, and I'm sure the only reason is that more seasoned photographers appreciate the difference between a photo-sharing site and a photo critique forum!

    Back to the main topic: On photo-sharing sites I think there is a value in having only a thumbs up or like button to click on, as at the very least it's always nice to see that one's work is appreciated. And if someone doesn't like an image, they can simply move on to look for something else that they prefer and can enjoy more. The only possible benefit I can see in having a dislike or thumbs down feature to click on anonymously is to serve the sort of small-minded person who gets a kick out of thinking they may have spoiled someone else's day.

    Anyhow, hope nobody takes offence to anything I've written here, as that's certainly not my intention, though as you can probably tell this is a subject I happen to feel quite strongly about.

    All the best one and all iloveyou.gif
  • RuSuRuSu Registered Users Posts: 355 Major grins
    edited June 1, 2012
    Couldn't agree more - well said, Ashley - really gets to the root of the problem!
    Forgive my ignorance on all this, but can someone please direct me to an info page that explains the purpose of the thumbs up and thumbs down as well as the star ratings, that also lets me know where I can see the results of both thumbs up and thumbs down, and how any of this may help benefit me as a Pro SmugMugger?

    Also direction to anything written explaining what the “dailies” are all about and if one needs to join or subscribe would be useful, thanks in advance!

    On a side note, of all photo-sharing sites I've ever participated on, the one where my work has always attracted most attention is 500px - though I'm certainly not here to plug them, what immediately caught my interest reading the opening post on this thread was how the very same controversial issue over there is also one being raised over here on SmugMug.

    While not trying to draw comparisons, I can tell you that “disliking” (or perhaps more aptly put: targeted dislike abuse) is the main reason why so many pro photographers have left 500px and is a major frustration for many more 500px members who love everything else about the site yet are clearly at odds as to whether they should simply suck it up or leave.

    No doubt the owners of 500px have been long fed up of the continuing deluge of complaints they've received regarding dislike abuse (which is thought to come about largely by some people wanting to curtail the the advancement of a popular image in the hope theirs will jump ahead by default) and constant requests, pleas, and in some cases demands for the dislike feature to be completely removed is, to my mind, having the exact opposite effect; it almost seems like the owner's are trying to send the message that “it's our wesbite and you can't make us do anything we don't want to”, even though surely they must be aware that by removing this one and seemingly only flaw they could catapult 500px's popularity even higher and draw in (not to mention draw back) many more members. It seems to me like a case of cutting one's nose to spite one's face.

    Just to underline: I'm not trying to suggest this is what's going on here by any means and, and in both my research and experience SmugMug usually goes out of their way to not only listen when members have something to say but take things on board and make changes and improvements where possible.

    My personal opinion is that thumbs down or dislike buttons have nothing of value to offer on photo-sharing sites like, SmugMug, 500px, Flickr or any other; if there is a place for things like this it should surely be on photography critique forums, of which there are many to be found on the internet and where comments explaining why something is not to someone else's liking or suggestions on how something could be improved on are not only accepted but encouraged by photographers posting their work.

    This isn't directed specifically to Kara above (and I sincerely hope you don't mind me sharing my opinion on this), but I see members over on 500px (though Kara's the first person I've come across over here) that states in their bio or together with photos they've uploaded that what they're hoping for is other photographers that they hold in high esteem will chip in with some suggestions and advice that may help them improve. Yet in all the time I've been on 500px I've rarely ever seen a more experienced photographer offering any such support, and I'm sure the only reason is that more seasoned photographers appreciate the difference between a photo-sharing site and a photo critique forum!

    Back to the main topic: On photo-sharing sites I think there is a value in having only a thumbs up or like button to click on, as at the very least it's always nice to see that one's work is appreciated. And if someone doesn't like an image, they can simply move on to look for something else that they prefer and can enjoy more. The only possible benefit I can see in having a dislike or thumbs down feature to click on anonymously is to serve the sort of small-minded person who gets a kick out of thinking they may have spoiled someone else's day.

    Anyhow, hope nobody takes offence to anything I've written here, as that's certainly not my intention, though as you can probably tell this is a subject I happen to feel quite strongly about.

    All the best one and all iloveyou.gif
  • HershyHershy Registered Users Posts: 23 Big grins
    edited June 1, 2012
    Very well put and I endorse your views and suggestions.


    Forgive my ignorance on all this, but can someone please direct me to an info page that explains the purpose of the thumbs up and thumbs down as well as the star ratings, that also lets me know where I can see the results of both thumbs up and thumbs down, and how any of this may help benefit me as a Pro SmugMugger?

    Also direction to anything written explaining what the “dailies” are all about and if one needs to join or subscribe would be useful, thanks in advance!

    On a side note, of all photo-sharing sites I've ever participated on, the one where my work has always attracted most attention is 500px - though I'm certainly not here to plug them, what immediately caught my interest reading the opening post on this thread was how the very same controversial issue over there is also one being raised over here on SmugMug.

    While not trying to draw comparisons, I can tell you that “disliking” (or perhaps more aptly put: targeted dislike abuse) is the main reason why so many pro photographers have left 500px and is a major frustration for many more 500px members who love everything else about the site yet are clearly at odds as to whether they should simply suck it up or leave.

    No doubt the owners of 500px have been long fed up of the continuing deluge of complaints they've received regarding dislike abuse (which is thought to come about largely by some people wanting to curtail the the advancement of a popular image in the hope theirs will jump ahead by default) and constant requests, pleas, and in some cases demands for the dislike feature to be completely removed is, to my mind, having the exact opposite effect; it almost seems like the owner's are trying to send the message that “it's our wesbite and you can't make us do anything we don't want to”, even though surely they must be aware that by removing this one and seemingly only flaw they could catapult 500px's popularity even higher and draw in (not to mention draw back) many more members. It seems to me like a case of cutting one's nose to spite one's face.

    Just to underline: I'm not trying to suggest this is what's going on here by any means and, and in both my research and experience SmugMug usually goes out of their way to not only listen when members have something to say but take things on board and make changes and improvements where possible.

    My personal opinion is that thumbs down or dislike buttons have nothing of value to offer on photo-sharing sites like, SmugMug, 500px, Flickr or any other; if there is a place for things like this it should surely be on photography critique forums, of which there are many to be found on the internet and where comments explaining why something is not to someone else's liking or suggestions on how something could be improved on are not only accepted but encouraged by photographers posting their work.

    This isn't directed specifically to Kara above (and I sincerely hope you don't mind me sharing my opinion on this), but I see members over on 500px (though Kara's the first person I've come across over here) that states in their bio or together with photos they've uploaded that what they're hoping for is other photographers that they hold in high esteem will chip in with some suggestions and advice that may help them improve. Yet in all the time I've been on 500px I've rarely ever seen a more experienced photographer offering any such support, and I'm sure the only reason is that more seasoned photographers appreciate the difference between a photo-sharing site and a photo critique forum!

    Back to the main topic: On photo-sharing sites I think there is a value in having only a thumbs up or like button to click on, as at the very least it's always nice to see that one's work is appreciated. And if someone doesn't like an image, they can simply move on to look for something else that they prefer and can enjoy more. The only possible benefit I can see in having a dislike or thumbs down feature to click on anonymously is to serve the sort of small-minded person who gets a kick out of thinking they may have spoiled someone else's day.

    Anyhow, hope nobody takes offence to anything I've written here, as that's certainly not my intention, though as you can probably tell this is a subject I happen to feel quite strongly about.

    All the best one and all iloveyou.gif
  • RuSuRuSu Registered Users Posts: 355 Major grins
    edited June 1, 2012
    Again....
    Yes, the obsessive/compulsive thumbs downer is at it again. Hershey, a long-standing, well-respected photographer & member of the Daily community was viciously attacked the other day, as he noted in this forum.

    When I looked at the Dailies around 1AM EST this morning, June 1, the #1 photo was taken by Godschild, with Art Hill's shot in 2nd & my shot in 3rd. One hour later, Godschild's shot was in 29th place & my shot was totally out (with 39 comments)! I thought I must be seeing things & actually re-started my computer thinking there was some kind of glitch - WRONG! So, why am I upset? I can assure you it's not so much about being totally bumped out of the Dailies, it's about receiving so many thumbs down that the photo doesn't even appear in MY personal 'most popular photos' gallery on my homepage. If 39 people took their time to comment on a shot, I would like it to at least appear on my own homepage as one of most popular irregardless of whether or not I personally think it one of my best.

    The fact is that since the thumbs have been removed from the Dailies (though not from SM), people have lost their customization in their Daily gallery, yet someone still has the ability to impact the content of my site - aren't these the things we pay SM for?

    Ashley's post above says it all - no purpose is served by having a thumbs down option!
  • HershyHershy Registered Users Posts: 23 Big grins
    edited June 1, 2012
    Andy wrote: »
    It's a customization on the part of the Daily Photos Community Owner (Rainforest) on his site.

    Andy,

    I guess I was not clear enough. I meant that the pictures are being thumbed down from
    http://www.smugmug.com/popular/today


    Hershy.
  • Lemur LoverLemur Lover Registered Users Posts: 180 Major grins
    edited June 1, 2012
    Even though I'm not knowingly participating in these so-called "dailies" or, if I am then as Kara so eloquently put it, I'm blissfully unaware mwink.gif pleased to note my sentiments regarding the thumbs down dislike serving no good purpose struck the right note with you RuSu and Hershy.

    That said, if someone could please address the first things I wrote about I would be very grateful:

    Forgive my ignorance on all this, but can someone please direct me to an info page that explains the purpose of the thumbs up and thumbs down as well as the star ratings, that also lets me know where I can see the results of both thumbs up and thumbs down, and how any of this may help benefit me as a Pro SmugMugger?

    Also direction to anything written explaining what the “dailies” are all about and if one needs to join or subscribe would be useful, thanks in advance!
  • RuSuRuSu Registered Users Posts: 355 Major grins
    edited June 1, 2012
    Info for Ashley
    Hi Ashley,

    I'm no expert, so Andy or someone else may correct me, but I'll try to answer a few of your questions.

    To the best of my knowledge, there is no explanation of the purpose of the thumbs up/down - I suspect it's taken for granted as self-explanatory. Nor can you see or get any statistical info as to whether or not a photo received thumbs up or down. One way you can determine if someone gave a shot a thumbs up without leaving a comment, is that the photo will appear in your personal most popular gallery whether or not you choose to display your most popular on your site.

    SM has a number of communities. You can see the list here: http://www.smugmug.com/community/

    As far as I know, the Daily community is the most active. There aren't any defined rules, though the idea behind it is that its members post a new photo everyday. Its flexible & up to each individual whether they really post every day and/or post something new that day. To join the Dailies or any other community you simply have to make a gallery (or galleries) a member of that community in your gallery settings. The disadvantage to being in a community is that the community setting/formatting over rides your personal customization - not very nice which is why I have one gallery dedicated to the Dailies.

    I'm not a Pro, so I'm not quite sure how the thumbs might help or hinder you as a pro. Someone else may be able to provide more insight.

    You have some truly amazing animal/wildlife shots! I'm sure I can speak for many by saying you'd be a welcome addition to the Daily community. As you understand from this thread, there's been a lot of controversy of late particularly from members of the community as someone has not only been manipulating the rankings, but actively bouncing shots out so they don't show up at all. Generally, it's a nice group of people with some darn good photographers. One, or a few bad apples, have spoiled it for some who have left the community until SM revises their system - a long time coming.

    Good luck!
    Even though I'm not knowingly participating in these so-called "dailies" or, if I am then as Kara so eloquently put it, I'm blissfully unaware mwink.gif pleased to note my sentiments regarding the thumbs down dislike serving no good purpose struck the right note with you RuSu and Hershy.

    That said, if someone could please address the first things I wrote about I would be very grateful:

    Forgive my ignorance on all this, but can someone please direct me to an info page that explains the purpose of the thumbs up and thumbs down as well as the star ratings, that also lets me know where I can see the results of both thumbs up and thumbs down, and how any of this may help benefit me as a Pro SmugMugger?

    Also direction to anything written explaining what the “dailies” are all about and if one needs to join or subscribe would be useful, thanks in advance!
  • rainforest1155rainforest1155 Registered Users Posts: 4,564 Major grins
    edited June 1, 2012
    Hershy wrote: »
    Andy,

    I guess I was not clear enough. I meant that the pictures are being thumbed down from
    http://www.smugmug.com/popular/today


    Hershy.
    Hershy,
    Features on the global populars cannot be influenced by community settings so it's not possible to disable the thumbs there. What Andy did with disabling the thumbs on the DP community is the best that can be done with the current system.
    Sebastian
    SmugMug Support Hero
  • Lemur LoverLemur Lover Registered Users Posts: 180 Major grins
    edited June 1, 2012
    RuSu wrote: »
    Hi Ashley,

    I'm no expert, so Andy or someone else may correct me, but I'll try to answer a few of your questions.

    To the best of my knowledge, there is no explanation of the purpose of the thumbs up/down - I suspect it's taken for granted as self-explanatory. Nor can you see or get any statistical info as to whether or not a photo received thumbs up or down. One way you can determine if someone gave a shot a thumbs up without leaving a comment, is that the photo will appear in your personal most popular gallery whether or not you choose to display your most popular on your site.

    SM has a number of communities. You can see the list here: http://www.smugmug.com/community/

    As far as I know, the Daily community is the most active. There aren't any defined rules, though the idea behind it is that its members post a new photo everyday. Its flexible & up to each individual whether they really post every day and/or post something new that day. To join the Dailies or any other community you simply have to make a gallery (or galleries) a member of that community in your gallery settings. The disadvantage to being in a community is that the community setting/formatting over rides your personal customization - not very nice which is why I have one gallery dedicated to the Dailies.

    I'm not a Pro, so I'm not quite sure how the thumbs might help or hinder you as a pro. Someone else may be able to provide more insight.

    You have some truly amazing animal/wildlife shots! I'm sure I can speak for many by saying you'd be a welcome addition to the Daily community. As you understand from this thread, there's been a lot of controversy of late particularly from members of the community as someone has not only been manipulating the rankings, but actively bouncing shots out so they don't show up at all. Generally, it's a nice group of people with some darn good photographers. One, or a few bad apples, have spoiled it for some who have left the community until SM revises their system - a long time coming.

    Good luck!

    Thanks for taking the time to explain all this best you can RuSu!

    As I've always been the sort to press something just to see what'll happen, I actually green-thumbed all the photos in my own galleries the other day - I know, I know, you're probably thinking what a sad little life I lead :loll - and aside from seeing the red thumbs disappear I noticed nothing else. I also tried green-thumbing some of the images I liked while looking through other people's galleries - see, I do think of others as well mwink.gif - but after a while of thinking they too may not even notice I've "liked" their images, I gave up; I mean, what's the point. So if someone else happens to know if green-thumbing someone's pics - or even your own biggrinbounce2.gif - makes any positive difference at all please enlighten me thumb.gif

    Thanks for the communities list RuSu! Saw there's a group for birds and another for animals, so may post up a few images in those and see what happens.

    Thanks also for taking an interest in my site and of naturally delighted to know you liked the images you saw! Didn't see a link to your own website so of course I can't comment, but I can tell from the way that you write you do have passion, which I always regard as an integral part of any artist, and I'm sure this is evident in your photography, keep up the good work :D
  • RuSuRuSu Registered Users Posts: 355 Major grins
    edited June 1, 2012
    You are too funny, Ashley! However, it's understandable since SM doesn't explain certain things very well. So, if you give yourself [or anyone else] a green thumbs up, that photo will more than likely get bumped into SM's overall popular photos of the day which is different than the Daily or any communities popular for the day. Theoretically, you can only thumbs up (or down) a shot once, but there are those who've figured out how to get around that... Anyway, just go to SM's home page (not yours) & click browse photos. That gallery gets populated with 1000 popular photos each day, which could be based on the # of comments or could be as simple as 1 person giving it a green thumb to bump it in. It constantly changes throughout the day as people in different parts of the world get activated. The whole thing starts over at 11PM Pacific time. So, if you had checked SM's most popular after giving yourself the thumbs up, you would have seen your photos there.

    There are lots of 'social' photographers on SM & some loonies who thumbs up 20 versions of a photo that's more or less the same, so it's pretty easy for a shot to get lost in the crowd. More often than not, the cream often rises to the top, though not always. It can be pretty difficult to get comments or feedback on your shot if it's 1 amongst 1000, which is why I joined the most active community, the Dailies. I wanted to join some other communities too, but it screws up your customization so badly, I didn't.

    SM doesn't reveal their algorithm for ranking shots. Comments have major input for sure, unless someone keeps giving you the thumbs down. One thing I've figured out is that, to some extent, a more recent comment trumps an older comment. Well, that's my take on things.

    FYI, if you click on the name of the person posting on this forum, you will see the option to send them an email, go to their site, see their posts, etc.

    Best,
    Susan
    RuSuphotography.com
    Even though I'm not knowingly participating in these so-called "dailies" or, if I am then as Kara so eloquently put it, I'm blissfully unaware mwink.gif pleased to note my sentiments regarding the thumbs down dislike serving no good purpose struck the right note with you RuSu and Hershy.

    That said, if someone could please address the first things I wrote about I would be very grateful:

    Forgive my ignorance on all this, but can someone please direct me to an info page that explains the purpose of the thumbs up and thumbs down as well as the star ratings, that also lets me know where I can see the results of both thumbs up and thumbs down, and how any of this may help benefit me as a Pro SmugMugger?

    Also direction to anything written explaining what the “dailies” are all about and if one needs to join or subscribe would be useful, thanks in advance!
    Thanks for taking the time to explain all this best you can RuSu!

    As I've always been the sort to press something just to see what'll happen, I actually green-thumbed all the photos in my own galleries the other day - I know, I know, you're probably thinking what a sad little life I lead :loll - and aside from seeing the red thumbs disappear I noticed nothing else. I also tried green-thumbing some of the images I liked while looking through other people's galleries - see, I do think of others as well mwink.gif - but after a while of thinking they too may not even notice I've "liked" their images, I gave up; I mean, what's the point. So if someone else happens to know if green-thumbing someone's pics - or even your own biggrinbounce2.gif - makes any positive difference at all please enlighten me thumb.gif

    Thanks for the communities list RuSu! Saw there's a group for birds and another for animals, so may post up a few images in those and see what happens.

    Thanks also for taking an interest in my site and of naturally delighted to know you liked the images you saw! Didn't see a link to your own website so of course I can't comment, but I can tell from the way that you write you do have passion, which I always regard as an integral part of any artist, and I'm sure this is evident in your photography, keep up the good work :D
  • johnlogukjohnloguk Registered Users Posts: 137 Major grins
    edited June 1, 2012
    As the person who started this thread I'm afraid I have neglected it recently and didn't realise that there have been so many posts since the last time I checked in. Apologies for that, I have been manically busy.

    Firstly, thanks to Ashley (lemur lover) for your wonderful outsider's view, I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments. Susan has answered your queries I think, and I can only endorse everything she has said too.

    I'm really sorry that Harsh and others have been affected by the thumbs downer again, I hadn't noticed anything, but as I said I haven't been able to spend much time on the Dailies for a week or so. It is definitely the case that some people do get targetted while others are left well alone. I can only speculate why this is.

    I do consider myself a professional photographer, in that my main income is from my photography these days, and I can't see a positive reason for having the thumbs from a "pro" viewpoint. The thumbs were only a bit of fun, but they are one of the ways that idiots can cause havoc. Every internet forum, of every type, gets plagued at some point by trolls, people whose only point is to abuse and cause upset. What has happened on the Dailies is a form of that I suppose. They will always find a way, abusive anonymous comments keep rearing their ugly head, and somehow someone is still manipulating the most popular rankings even though the thumbs aren't active anymore.

    We will never get rid of the trolls, it is just a shame that Smug really don't seem to be engaged in this. Those of us that have complained have been characterised as vain glory hunters who only want our pics to be the most popular, which couldn't be further from the truth. But enough of the negativity for now.

    The Smug Daily community is a wonderful place, lots of great photographers, and lots of useful skills are shared there. It is true that if you want detailed honest critique then the Dailies isn't the place for you. To take a photo every day for a long period takes a lot of determination, so the quality of individual pics isn't as important as just managing to take something, irrespective of how busy you are, your health, photo opportunities etc.

    The Dailies is a mix of complete beginners, keen amateurs, and highly skilled pros, but no one pulls "rank" on anyone else or belittles their work. I've made many "friends" there, even managed to meet several who live on other continents. Many of us do post info to help others recreate certain techniques or effects. We also "meet up" on Facebook regularly and have a laugh, it is a very social community. This is why we get so annoyed when someone tries to abuse it.

    For me the real unique joy of the Daily Community is that can watch the world turn as people post their images. When I wake up in the morning I check the Dailies over breakfast. Harsh has usually already posted from India, then Susan in Russia, maybe a couple of Europeans and other Brits and some "stay up laters" on the American West Coast. Then I upload my pic from the previous day, and if I'm working from home I see the American east coast wake up and start uploading round about my lunchtime. As people wake up they often comment on my pic, I reciprocate if I have the time, and I might check out more of the pics that have been uploaded well I was sleeping. This is why I do it, not for the spurious glory of having a popular image.

    I'd recommend any photographer tries to take a photo every day. You see the world differently, in fact you simply see a lot more. Your technique will improve, because if you take a pic every day you will want to try new things. You'll see other people do things and want to emulate them. You'll share techniques and ideas. You'll have fun. Photography is all about fun and passion, that is why I hate it when people try to ruin it.
  • AndyAndy Registered Users Posts: 50,154 Major grins
    edited June 1, 2012
    johnloguk wrote: »
    We will never get rid of the trolls, it is just a shame that Smug really don't seem to be engaged in this.

    I'm sorry you don't feel that we've been engaged :( This has taken an enormous amount of time on our part, we've been engaged throughout. And responsive. And we've take such action that we can in the Daily Photos Community. And we've stated that thumbs won't be part of the new style when it comes out.

    What may seem like "a troll" could just be some of the millions that visit the popular photos each day.

    We love your passion and we appreciate your patience while we work on the new stuff.
  • AllenAllen Registered Users Posts: 9,987 Major grins
    edited June 1, 2012
    Andy wrote: »
    ...And we've stated that thumbs won't be part of the new style when it comes out. ...
    This is totally ridiculous. We need a way for visitors to "like" a photo for our popular gallery. How simple
    could it be, duh!!!. REMOVE THE THUMB DOWN AND LEAVE THE THUMB UP.
    Al - Just a volunteer here having fun
    My Website index | My Blog
  • johnlogukjohnloguk Registered Users Posts: 137 Major grins
    edited June 1, 2012
    Andy I do honestly appreciate the time you have put into this, but it has been going on for a long long time now. One of the reasons I started this thread was because we seemed to be discussing it between ourselves on the Dailies, and via personal emails, for the umpteenth year running. Several great photogs had left the Dailies after having complained about abusive comments etc and felt they had been fobbed off. Most of my experiences with Smug heroes have been very very positive, apart from this subject, and I think everyone else has found the same. Several of us have contacted Sebastian directly many times, and often got totally ignored in the past. That is why there is the frustration and level of feeling here.

    When I talk about "trolls" and "thumb downers" I don't mean people who happen to visit the Dailies through the course of the day, I mean someone who is deliberately and systematically targetting individual images. I don't know why I have to keep stressing this, the evidence is clear. Why else do some photos plummet down the ranking before our eyes some days despite having far more comments than those ranked above them? I know the algorythm is complex, but how does a pic with 30 comments end up pages down the rankings along with those with 3 or 4 comments that day?

    As I'm at pains to keep repeating, if someone doesn't like my work then fine, I'm a big boy, and anyway I'm a harsher critic of my work than anyone else. But why target someone's photos to make them disappear? Why the anonymous negative sarcastic comments? OK the latter aren't a big deal compared to the abusive obscene ones, but these aren't just people dropping in and leaving their thoughts.

    I know by continuing to bring this up we are attracting negative attention in some quarters. If any of us dare mention it in a photo caption we tend to get hammered the next day, but is it right that we should keep quiet to avoid being targetted? There is no easy solution I know, you can't legislate for people looking for mischief, but it has been going on for a long long time, and you are the first person at Smug to attempt to tackle it.
  • johnlogukjohnloguk Registered Users Posts: 137 Major grins
    edited June 1, 2012
    Allen wrote: »
    This is totally ridiculous. We need a way for visitors to "like" a photo for our popular gallery. How simple
    could it be, duh!!!. REMOVE THE THUMB DOWN AND LEAVE THE THUMB UP.

    Our posts crossed, but YES, this would be my simple solution too. Some clown could still abuse it by thumbing their own pic up too much, but at least they couldn't make other photos disappear.
  • Lemur LoverLemur Lover Registered Users Posts: 180 Major grins
    edited June 1, 2012
    RuSu wrote: »
    You are too funny, Ashley! However, it's understandable since SM doesn't explain certain things very well. So, if you give yourself [or anyone else] a green thumbs up, that photo will more than likely get bumped into SM's overall popular photos of the day which is different than the Daily or any communities popular for the day. Theoretically, you can only thumbs up (or down) a shot once, but there are those who've figured out how to get around that... Anyway, just go to SM's home page (not yours) & click browse photos. That gallery gets populated with 1000 popular photos each day, which could be based on the # of comments or could be as simple as 1 person giving it a green thumb to bump it in. It constantly changes throughout the day as people in different parts of the world get activated. The whole thing starts over at 11PM Pacific time. So, if you had checked SM's most popular after giving yourself the thumbs up, you would have seen your photos there.

    There are lots of 'social' photographers on SM & some loonies who thumbs up 20 versions of a photo that's more or less the same, so it's pretty easy for a shot to get lost in the crowd. More often than not, the cream often rises to the top, though not always. It can be pretty difficult to get comments or feedback on your shot if it's 1 amongst 1000, which is why I joined the most active community, the Dailies. I wanted to join some other communities too, but it screws up your customization so badly, I didn't.

    SM doesn't reveal their algorithm for ranking shots. Comments have major input for sure, unless someone keeps giving you the thumbs down. One thing I've figured out is that, to some extent, a more recent comment trumps an older comment. Well, that's my take on things.

    FYI, if you click on the name of the person posting on this forum, you will see the option to send them an email, go to their site, see their posts, etc.

    Best,
    Susan
    RuSuphotography.com

    Hi Susan ...... Awww, I get it now: Russia's Very Own Susan rolleyes1.gif

    I'll probably still green-thumb images I come across and particularly like for whatever good it'll do, but to be on the safe side I'll add an appreciative comment as well mwink.gif

    Was going to post a photo in one of the specialised community galleries today, but couldn't find anything by way of an information page as to how one goes about it, I don't even know if there are any rule or guidelines, what's up with that? I mean, how do I know how many photos I'm allowed to post each day, or if it's permissible to post the same photo in, say, the wildlife gallery as well as the daily gallery? ne_nau.gif

    Soon after I've figured this out I'll probably post up an image or two in one community gallery or another and see how it goes.

    BTW, I'm a bit of a "loony" myself, though not that kind of loony :crazy :D

    Thanks for pointing out the way to discover someone's website if it's not in their signature Susan, should have thought of that myself 11doh.gif heading over to check out yours more after I've replied to John's kind words to me below!

    Very pleased to meet you and wishing you and your family a wonderful weekend ahead iloveyou.gif
  • Lemur LoverLemur Lover Registered Users Posts: 180 Major grins
    edited June 1, 2012
    johnloguk wrote: »
    Firstly, thanks to Ashley (lemur lover) for your wonderful outsider's view, I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments. Susan has answered your queries I think, and I can only endorse everything she has said too.

    No worries John, I really do empathise with you and others who've experienced the same frustration that so many over on 500px have and still do.

    Having read what Andy's written I feel that the guys here are genuinely concerned with this issue and are trying their best to address it. As frustrating as things like this are, I think the most important thing is to be ever mindful that the SmugMug team are exceedingly busy behind the scenes and there's no practical way they can provide up-to-the-minute reports on where they're at on any particular matter on so many threads and forums, not to mention most of them probably have families and lives outside of the realm of SmugMug mwink.gif

    That said, I'd still be very interested to know, perhaps from Andy, what SmugMug's reasons are for not simply removing the red thumb and keeping the green thumb in place?

    Wishing you a great weekend ahead John ... you too Andy if you happen across this :D
  • johnlogukjohnloguk Registered Users Posts: 137 Major grins
    edited June 2, 2012
    If anyone needed "proof" that the perpetrator of the "thumbs down", variously known as "the snake" and far worse, is a member of Dgrin then surely the shenanigans in the Daily Community today are worth looking at?

    I've not been around apart from uploading my Daily photo this morning, and a brief visit a few minutes ago, but some very strange things have been going on. My photos haven't been attacked for a while, but is it coincidence that the day after I comment on here for the first time in ages that my Daily is targetted so hard that it is currently invisible? Here is the link to my image for today;
    http://www.lightanddreamsphotography.com/Photography/DAILY-PHOTOS-FIFTH-YEAR/21281256_TPn3kM#!i=1881129904&k=vtNqcB3

    It has 7 comments, and apparently has been made to disappear from the community more than once today, why and by whom?

    Sadly 2 other people who have been attacked again today, "Indigo" and "Sisterhoodofthebras", have decided that for them it is the final straw and they are leaving the Community. What gives anyone the right to do this, and what is the Smugmug position on it? Is anyone reading this going to dare say that I'm just annoyed that my images aren't number 1 every day? Am I angry? Damn right, I'm incandescent!

    Is anyone going to tell me again that these events are just the random result of people visiting the site?

    I'm beginning to think that the perpetrator is someone close to Smug, and the Daily Community in particular, and maybe they are just sick of some of us moaning about these things. But I'm going to keep banging on about it until it stops, the alternative is to let this person(s) win, and that isn't worth considering.
  • kds1kds1 Registered Users Posts: 242 Major grins
    edited June 2, 2012
    John (or anyone else), I realize this is off topic, but could you direct me to the facebook dailies group? I'd love to join in the conversation there. I don't have the time these days for a daily photo to post and catch up with you all that way, but I do pop in to facebook and could catch up on the news and stuff there. What is the name of it or link to it? I've searched, but all I can find is one group that has 2 members - Maryann and another. I am linked up to the regular smugmug facebook page, but you had mentioned there is a smugmug daily community page. . .

    Thank you!

    Kara
  • johnlogukjohnloguk Registered Users Posts: 137 Major grins
    edited June 2, 2012
    kds1 wrote: »
    John (or anyone else), I realize this is off topic, but could you direct me to the facebook dailies group? I'd love to join in the conversation there. I don't have the time these days for a daily photo to post and catch up with you all that way, but I do pop in to facebook and could catch up on the news and stuff there. What is the name of it or link to it? I've searched, but all I can find is one group that has 2 members - Maryann and another. I am linked up to the regular smugmug facebook page, but you had mentioned there is a smugmug daily community page. . .

    Thank you!

    Kara

    Hi Kara

    I don't think there is a dedicated Dailies group on facebook, just a lot of us happen to be on facebook and occasionally chat about these things. To be honest much of the discussion has either been in this thread or between us in private emails. There is a Photographers Forum on FB, which includes a lot of Smuggers, that is here http://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/125336757521853/

    It is hard to know where is best to talk about these issues. For ages we just reported things to Smug heroes individually as and when we were affected, but the general response was "we can't do anything about it if people don't like your photos, try to ignore the negative comments, and anyway the thumbs are just a bit of fun". They consistently missed the point that no one is worried about negative comments or the occasional thumbs down, only obscene and abusive comments, and thumbing down to the extent of making images disappear.

    I started this thread out of sheer frustration that so many people were being affected, and basically they were either suffering in silence, leaving the Dailies, or both. To his credit Andy has been proactive and not ignored the issue like some had before. But we have attracted a lot of criticism and what I would call willful misunderstanding. The removal of the thumbs was a knee jerk reaction that has had negative effects that you've mentioned here before, and sadly not stopped the problem either.

    I hate moaning, let alone being seen as a moaner, but as I said above, what is the alternative while this continues?
  • kds1kds1 Registered Users Posts: 242 Major grins
    edited June 2, 2012
    Oh, ok! Thanks, John, for the fb info!

    Kara
  • Kresten RefslundKresten Refslund Registered Users Posts: 3 Beginner grinner
    edited June 3, 2012
    Over the past 2 months I have had 10 pictures blown out of the "All times" list. I am fed up with it and shall not renew my membership of SM when it is up for renewal.
  • johnlogukjohnloguk Registered Users Posts: 137 Major grins
    edited June 3, 2012
    Over the past 2 months I have had 10 pictures blown out of the "All times" list. I am fed up with it and shall not renew my membership of SM when it is up for renewal.

    This is so sad Kresten, but totally understandable. Especially when you ask for help and other people suggest that we're only bothered about our photos being number one. I wonder if Andy thinks that your photos disappearing like that is just the random effect of people visiting Smug, as he suggested to me above? I wonder what evidence Smug need before they realise that there is a person, or persons, actively targetting specific individuals?ne_nau.gif
  • AndyAndy Registered Users Posts: 50,154 Major grins
    edited June 3, 2012
    johnloguk wrote: »
    This is so sad Kresten, but totally understandable. Especially when you ask for help and other people suggest that we're only bothered about our photos being number one. I wonder if Andy thinks that your photos disappearing like that is just the random effect of people visiting Smug, as he suggested to me above? I wonder what evidence Smug need before they realise that there is a person, or persons, actively targetting specific individuals?ne_nau.gif

    Hello John. In fact there are millions visiting the popular photos. There's nothing random going on. We're sorry that you and others are frustrated at this. We're busy working on new ways this will all happen, and we're all laser-focused on that.
  • AndyAndy Registered Users Posts: 50,154 Major grins
    edited June 3, 2012
    Over the past 2 months I have had 10 pictures blown out of the "All times" list. I am fed up with it and shall not renew my membership of SM when it is up for renewal.

    I'm sorry to hear this :( I just spent a while perusing your photos, wow, you have some great shots in your gallery - I thoroughly enjoyed them!
  • RuSuRuSu Registered Users Posts: 355 Major grins
    edited June 4, 2012
    Just documenting
    for the record. My June 3rd Daily was targeted & totally bumped out of the Dailies. At one point it was in 4th position - an hour later - GONE! As I understand any logical algorithm, the shot certainly could have moved down , but unless it was specifically attacked, it would not have totally disappeared. In fact, it doesn't even show up in SM's general top 1000 shots of the day. If one looks at SM's current 1000 most popular on any day, you will see that the majority of shots do not have any comments - it's basically people giving thumbs up to their own shots. BUT, how is it possible that a shot with 26 comments doesn't appear in the day's 1000 most popular? Surely SM must understand this is a mathematical impossibility unless someone has specifically given it the thumbs down multiple times. This IS a real problem & it's not going away until SM deals with it

    I considered leaving SM a year ago, bu then the announcement of the new design was made - EXACTLY one year & 3 days ago - & decided to stick with you guys for the SM positives of which, of course, there are many. I do understand development is a time consuming process & it's best to get it right out of the box, but I think many Smuggers thought the time frame would be much shorter than more than a year.

    What's going on in the Dailies is beyond absurdity & needs to be addressed sooner rather than later.
  • HershyHershy Registered Users Posts: 23 Big grins
    edited June 4, 2012
    Andy wrote: »
    Hello John. In fact there are millions visiting the popular photos. There's nothing random going on. We're sorry that you and others are frustrated at this. We're busy working on new ways this will all happen, and we're all laser-focused on that.

    I think the solution can be rather simple.
    1) REMOVE the thumbs up/down from the http://www.smugmug.com/popular/today gallery as you have done with the Daily gallery.
    2) REMOVE the Thumbs DOWN feature and MAINTAIN Thumbs UP feature. If someone does not like a picture, then don't comment or give it a rank just move on to the next one.
  • jrogersjrogers Registered Users Posts: 79 Big grins
    edited June 4, 2012
    Hershy wrote: »
    I think the solution can be rather simple.
    1) REMOVE the thumbs up/down from the http://www.smugmug.com/popular/today gallery as you have done with the Daily gallery.
    2) REMOVE the Thumbs DOWN feature and MAINTAIN Thumbs UP feature. If someone does not like a picture, then don't comment or give it a rank just move on to the next one.

    Andy - I was going to suggest the same thing as Hershy's #2 above...leave the Thumbs Up and just get rid of the Thumbs Down. It works for Facebook...they have a "Like" function, but no "dislike". (sidenote: Facebook is just the opposite, though - they really need a "dislike")

    I really like the "thumbs up" function - it's a great way to appreciate a picture without having to leave a comment. That's a great thing, since there are a lot of great pictures!

    Based on what I've seen in the past 4 years of smugmugging, I'm confident you guys will figure something out.

    John
  • kds1kds1 Registered Users Posts: 242 Major grins
    edited June 25, 2012
    I believe they have said that it is not possible to separate the Thumbs Up and the Thumbs Down feature and only do a Thumbs Up. Also, remember, when the Thumbs Up/Thumbs Down feature was removed from the Dailies, it also disabled the ability to have customized Dailies galleries for those of us who have customized our smug sites. In other words, now that the TU/TD is removed, all of my other galleries are customized EXCEPT the ones I have linked to the Daily community.

    So no, I definitely do NOT want them to change something just for this ridiculous person who is affecting photo rank and then have all my galleries not able to be customized!
Sign In or Register to comment.