Abusive Comments and Thumbs Up/Down

2456

Comments

  • AchBeeAchBee Registered Users Posts: 7 Beginner grinner
    edited April 26, 2012
    Gotta chime in here..
    Andy..

    First let me congratulate and thank ALL the SmugMuggers below who've contributed to the below string of conversation regarding our Daily Community contributions and the impact of the thumbs down feature.

    I am in my third year as a SM Pro account holder - www.louisannimage.com

    I've been a pretty vocal thumbs opponent as are the other fine friends and fellow photographers below who've been affected. When my images started disappearing I went through the standard 'chain of command' by contacting the moderator of the Daily Community - got the run-around, contacted SM support to express concern, same answer basically. Nothing but deflection.

    The disappointment is real, frustrating and maddening - Consider this: Time spent editing and preparing an image for sharing, Posting the image and creating an appropriate caption - all with the hope of giving your viewers/customers a tiny moment of happiness, prompting a smile, maybe even a moment of learning.. Then to find our image gone from view!?! It's a bad feeling. We do this because we love photography and how it shares our tiny circle of vision with the world. We need no critique that has the power to remove our image from other's view.. It's fine to comment with less than positive critique.. your Comment Approval feature gives us total control to allow the world to see, or not - and that's right-on. But the power to remove an image from view... this has no place in a community of sharing. Who should have the power to remove an image from view? - the owner and SM, no other. Help us.. Stop the frustration and the desire to leave the community and SM altogether!

    I created a graphic image late last year that openly defied the thumbs down practice, I posted it every morning I experienced a thumbs down removal of my daily and over the months of doing this (until I hid the image from public view - as it's rather ugly) this image gained in comment/favorite popularity until it displays well into the middle of the ranking of ALL TIME Favorited images on SM (when not hidden) and as of today, Statistics on this image show a total of 7121 views. Sad but true.

    You've announced the new design was a work in progress last year. Your folks made particular mention of the fact the thumbs were gone in the favoriting process in the new design. This sends the message to us that you do realize the current process is not fair to those who just want to share their work.

    So, instead of all the continued back and forth concern, then deflection, dissatisfaction, threat of cancellations & non-renewals that is evident a large issue.. Why not just come clean? Tell us when we will see this in action..

    Please give us - your customers, something encouraging. Something firm. We obviously are very pleased with just about everything else you offer at SM. Your innovation continues on practically every front. We sing your praises on other forums and photographic websites (this is fact-I've done so myself.) So, Andy, throw us a bone..

    Please.

    With warm regards

    Howard Brown
    www.louisannimage.com

    Daily Community Contributor
  • AndyAndy Registered Users Posts: 50,154 Major grins
    edited April 26, 2012
    AchBee wrote: »
    So, instead of all the continued back and forth concern, then deflection, dissatisfaction, threat of cancellations & non-renewals that is evident a large issue.. Why not just come clean? Tell us when we will see this in action..

    Hi, I'm sorry that you are upset :( There's nothing to "come clean" on and we don't ignore or sidestep any issues. I know that you and many others have written our help desk and expressed concern over thumbs - we're sorry that in nearly all cases there's nothing we can do, we don't track who is thumbing up or down.

    We're coming out with a new gallery style - we've announced that. We won't say when but please know it's a giant priority for us. There will be no thumbs up or down, because as our CEO stated we'll be using different methods to determine PhotoRank. We will keep working on all the pieces and parts of the new style and get it out as quickly as we can, but I'm sorry I can't give you a date on this.

    We love your passion, thanks for posting!
  • AchBeeAchBee Registered Users Posts: 7 Beginner grinner
    edited April 26, 2012
    Andy,

    I understand you can't track or stop the individuals who use thumbs down. What is less easy to understand, (given that some of us, including myself, have had some measure of coding exposure over the years) is why SM - a really 'customer focused' organization at it's core, is unable to disable and/or rewrite specific code to remedy the customer concern. The 'Come Clean' reference means simply: 'tell us when we won't have to deal with it anymore.' We are trying, unsuccessfully I might add, to find reason in SM's decision. Is the short answer that 'the CEO has issued an edict that specifically prevents spending more resources on the old platform.' I'd bet a burger 'n a pepsi this is the case. Resources are expensive. But what's the tradeoff? I've been there in the corporate world pre-retirement and understand the predicament.

    I hear you state 'won't say when.' We now fully understand you/your CEO's position. I know you make this statement fully aware that chances are it also throws us into a 'won't say how long' scenario also. Darn, I love SM..

    Hey, how about a 'beta' for this piece alone...?

    Thanks,

    HB
  • GoodieGoodie Registered Users Posts: 3 Beginner grinner
    edited April 29, 2012
    Joining the cries for relief
    Andy,
    I have read through all the comments from my fellow SmugMuggers, and have to add my comments to this thread. The problem is the ability for unknown viewers to continually "thumb down" a photo until it disappears, I've had it happen to my photos many times. Comments of less than positive nature, are welcome, that's how we continually analyze our work - I think all of us would agree to that statement. But the malicious 'Red Thumber" is not productive and in fact is quite destuctive to the Daily Community. We have lost many, many members over the last couple of years that just got tired of it, were worn down by the frustration and left. I am personally in contact with many of them that just gave up. Why spend your time, talents and love to create a photo that you want to share with others? Why? We do it so that others can critique it (positive and negative), share ideas on what makes it a great photo or share thoughts on what could be improved. Those that have left not only the Daily Community, but Smug in total are numerous and tell me that they will not consider coming back until the ability to give a 'thumbs down' is removed. Please encourage the powers that be within Smug to bring out the new version that we've all heard so much about over the last year or so.

    Thank you,
    Lgood
  • RuSuRuSu Registered Users Posts: 355 Major grins
    edited April 29, 2012
    Wish I could this a thumbs up :)!
    AchBee wrote: »
    Andy..

    First let me congratulate and thank ALL the SmugMuggers below who've contributed to the below string of conversation regarding our Daily Community contributions and the impact of the thumbs down feature.

    I am in my third year as a SM Pro account holder - www.louisannimage.com

    I've been a pretty vocal thumbs opponent as are the other fine friends and fellow photographers below who've been affected. When my images started disappearing I went through the standard 'chain of command' by contacting the moderator of the Daily Community - got the run-around, contacted SM support to express concern, same answer basically. Nothing but deflection.

    The disappointment is real, frustrating and maddening - Consider this: Time spent editing and preparing an image for sharing, Posting the image and creating an appropriate caption - all with the hope of giving your viewers/customers a tiny moment of happiness, prompting a smile, maybe even a moment of learning.. Then to find our image gone from view!?! It's a bad feeling. We do this because we love photography and how it shares our tiny circle of vision with the world. We need no critique that has the power to remove our image from other's view.. It's fine to comment with less than positive critique.. your Comment Approval feature gives us total control to allow the world to see, or not - and that's right-on. But the power to remove an image from view... this has no place in a community of sharing. Who should have the power to remove an image from view? - the owner and SM, no other. Help us.. Stop the frustration and the desire to leave the community and SM altogether!

    I created a graphic image late last year that openly defied the thumbs down practice, I posted it every morning I experienced a thumbs down removal of my daily and over the months of doing this (until I hid the image from public view - as it's rather ugly) this image gained in comment/favorite popularity until it displays well into the middle of the ranking of ALL TIME Favorited images on SM (when not hidden) and as of today, Statistics on this image show a total of 7121 views. Sad but true.

    You've announced the new design was a work in progress last year. Your folks made particular mention of the fact the thumbs were gone in the favoriting process in the new design. This sends the message to us that you do realize the current process is not fair to those who just want to share their work.

    So, instead of all the continued back and forth concern, then deflection, dissatisfaction, threat of cancellations & non-renewals that is evident a large issue.. Why not just come clean? Tell us when we will see this in action..

    Please give us - your customers, something encouraging. Something firm. We obviously are very pleased with just about everything else you offer at SM. Your innovation continues on practically every front. We sing your praises on other forums and photographic websites (this is fact-I've done so myself.) So, Andy, throw us a bone..

    Please.

    With warm regards

    Howard Brown
    www.louisannimage.com

    Daily Community Contributor
  • johnlogukjohnloguk Registered Users Posts: 137 Major grins
    edited April 30, 2012
    If anyone is uncertain what we're on about just take a visit to the dailies now as the red thumber is active and attacking specific images again. Myself and Paul Bellinger are struggling to keep our photos visible as somone keeps thumbing them down so much they go invisible, quite a feat so they must be very determined!

    But so are we clap.gif
  • AndyAndy Registered Users Posts: 50,154 Major grins
    edited April 30, 2012
    So I just did something. Turns out that the owner of the Dailies community is one of our Heroes, Sebastian. I put some CSS on his site that hides the thumbs (BOTH of them, can't hide just one with CSS). And the Dailies community is now set to Sebastian's cobranding (generic SmugMug). Would you guys like me to leave it this way?
  • AchBeeAchBee Registered Users Posts: 7 Beginner grinner
    edited April 30, 2012
    ...wow!
    Andy.. THANK YOU for this!!!!!!! Progress!!!!

    How does an image get included in the daily view without a Thumb up to favorite it?

    HB
  • RuSuRuSu Registered Users Posts: 355 Major grins
    edited April 30, 2012
    My vote is a big 'YES' to the thumbs up/down adjustment. However, it seems to have also made a change that I don't think anyone wants - anyone can now download any image in the Dailies & save it to their computer! Previously, only the owner could do that. Personally, I'm absolutely not in favor of the Smug logo/cobranding that now appears in everyone's Daily gallery. I could live with it for a LIMITED time, just for the sake of eliminating the thumbs up/down. Not sure how everyone else feels given the efforts many of us make to have our own identifiable logo. It doesn't seem quite right that we should have to compromise on this...

    Will be interested in hearing the feedback of others.

    Susan
    RuSu Photography

    Andy wrote: »
    So I just did something. Turns out that the owner of the Dailies community is one of our Heroes, Sebastian. I put some CSS on his site that hides the thumbs (BOTH of them, can't hide just one with CSS). And the Dailies community is now set to Sebastian's cobranding (generic SmugMug). Would you guys like me to leave it this way?
  • AndyAndy Registered Users Posts: 50,154 Major grins
    edited April 30, 2012
    RuSu wrote: »
    My vote is a big 'YES' to the thumbs up/down adjustment. However, it seems to have also made a change that I don't think anyone wants - anyone can now download any image in the Dailies & save it to their computer!

    Photos in the community obey the rules set by the original gallery of the photo - example:

    largest size XL, RCP On:
    http://www.smugmug.com/community/DailyPhotos/popular/today/1820798936_7QWcTnr#!i=1820335275&k=QbkqKPn

    largest size X3, RCP Off:
    http://www.smugmug.com/community/DailyPhotos/popular/today/1820798936_7QWcTnr#!i=1820734637&k=wfwZRGb&lb=1&s=A
  • arthillarthill Registered Users Posts: 62 Big grins
    edited April 30, 2012
    Yes, leave it that way - thanks
    Andy wrote: »
    So I just did something. Turns out that the owner of the Dailies community is one of our Heroes, Sebastian. I put some CSS on his site that hides the thumbs (BOTH of them, can't hide just one with CSS). And the Dailies community is now set to Sebastian's cobranding (generic SmugMug). Would you guys like me to leave it this way?

    I think it would be great to leave it that way.
    In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, however, there is.
    In order to understand recursion, you first have to understand recursion.
    Art Hill
  • RuSuRuSu Registered Users Posts: 355 Major grins
    edited April 30, 2012
    Sorry, my mistake. I guess I just happened to click on some photos that had that option enabled.
    Andy wrote: »
    Photos in the community obey the rules set by the original gallery of the photo - example:

    largest size XL, RCP On:
    http://www.smugmug.com/community/DailyPhotos/popular/today/1820798936_7QWcTnr#!i=1820335275&k=QbkqKPn

    largest size X3, RCP Off:
    http://www.smugmug.com/community/DailyPhotos/popular/today/1820798936_7QWcTnr#!i=1820734637&k=wfwZRGb&lb=1&s=A
  • RuSuRuSu Registered Users Posts: 355 Major grins
    edited April 30, 2012
    Good question - hadn't thought about that. Would a 'good morning' comment bump it in?
    AchBee wrote: »
    Andy.. THANK YOU for this!!!!!!! Progress!!!!

    How does an image get included in the daily view without a Thumb up to favorite it?

    HB
  • AchBeeAchBee Registered Users Posts: 7 Beginner grinner
    edited April 30, 2012
    Share:Off, External Links:OFF
    RuSu wrote: »
    Sorry, my mistake. I guess I just happened to click on some photos that had that option enabled.
    In my personal Daily gallery I have Share and External Links set OFF and RIGHT CLICK shut off.
    When logged out, I visit the SM Daily Community Gallery and display my post. Share Button is available 'Get A Link' is available for all categories: Photo, Gallery, Embeddable, Feeds. However, only the Photo links in various sizes display the URL to my image, the BUY displays a URL to the Top #1 Favorite image right now, and ALL other option tabs, Gallery, Embeddable, Feed only display the Top #1 Favorite Image as well..

    When I copy the Photo Links for various size image links, I can open that link/URL in an empty browser window and then copy the image to my desktop. Granted, it's a low res Image, but it is no longer totally save from Download.. BTW, as is set in my personal settings, the image IS NOT right clickable.. You have to go the other route to pirate the low res version..

    Just more input Andy..

    Thanks!!!!!

    HB
  • johnlogukjohnloguk Registered Users Posts: 137 Major grins
    edited April 30, 2012
    Thanks for doing something to address this Andy. You really had to be watching this morning to understand how annoying it was. I suppose now it's a question of "watch this space"
  • jmcqueenjmcqueen Registered Users Posts: 11 Big grins
    edited April 30, 2012
    Many thanks, Andy! This is a terrific idea & although I would have preferred to keep the 'thumbs up', if this is what it takes to get rid of the malicious thumbs down behavior, then I'm 110% for it!!

    I've noticed that already there seems to be a big change in the Daily Photos gallery, it will be interesting to see how the lack of 'thumbs' affects the rankings. Does that mean that now the only way to change the position of the photos is to leave a comment? Or are the number of views also included in the rankings?
  • RuSuRuSu Registered Users Posts: 355 Major grins
    edited April 30, 2012
    Good question, Janet & I'm interested in Andy's response. I rather doubt number of views are in the calculation. I saw a comment LGood made the other day re: her SM stats, so I happened to check mine - something I almost never do. Turns out my Easter egg shot had 3,191 views & 31 comments on the day it was uploaded, yet landed in 26th position. I think it would have bumped much higher if views were in the equation.

    For the sake of clarity, where my shots end up isn't important. I put shots up because I like them or just want to share them. What I can't tolerate was malicious thumbs downing.

    I do hope Andy's solution resolves the problem. It'll be interesting to see how things shake out. I may be back tomorrow :)


    jmcqueen wrote: »
    Many thanks, Andy! This is a terrific idea & although I would have preferred to keep the 'thumbs up', if this is what it takes to get rid of the malicious thumbs down behavior, then I'm 110% for it!!

    I've noticed that already there seems to be a big change in the Daily Photos gallery, it will be interesting to see how the lack of 'thumbs' affects the rankings. Does that mean that now the only way to change the position of the photos is to leave a comment? Or are the number of views also included in the rankings?
  • billiejeanbilliejean Registered Users Posts: 5 Beginner grinner
    edited April 30, 2012
    Thanks Andy. When will it be activated?
  • AndyAndy Registered Users Posts: 50,154 Major grins
    edited April 30, 2012
    billiejean wrote: »
    Thanks Andy. When will it be activated?

    What do you mean? It's active now.
  • scianghettiscianghetti Registered Users Posts: 3 Beginner grinner
    edited April 30, 2012
    Unlike Susan (RuSu), I don't see anyone having a the ability to download my images. (edit - missed the comments addressing this)

    I think this is a good temp quick fix, BUT, if you click on the image, the thumbs appear and they work...so there is an easy around for anyone who digs just a bit...

    Do appreciate the efforts being made,
    Kim
  • AndyAndy Registered Users Posts: 50,154 Major grins
    edited April 30, 2012

    I think this is a good temp quick fix, BUT, if you click on the image, the thumbs appear and they work.

    Please look again they do not show:
    http://www.smugmug.com/community/DailyPhotos/popular/today/1820798936_7QWcTnr#!i=1820734637&k=wfwZRGb&lb=1&s=A
  • scianghettiscianghetti Registered Users Posts: 3 Beginner grinner
    edited April 30, 2012
    and now they're gone...cool, thanks :D
  • travelwaystravelways Registered Users Posts: 7,854 Major grins
    edited May 1, 2012
    Thanks everybody for the efforts on resolving this annoying problem.

    Unfortunately it looks like the thumbs are still on. If I turn the ranking off, I disappear from the gallery!

    Any thoughts?
    Tatiana - Seeing the world through my camera
    TravelwaysPhotos.com ...... Facebook
    VegasGreatAttractions.com
    Travelways.com
  • AndyAndy Registered Users Posts: 50,154 Major grins
    edited May 1, 2012
    Thanks everybody for the efforts on resolving this annoying problem.

    Unfortunately it looks like the thumbs are still on. If I turn the ranking off, I disappear from the gallery!

    Any thoughts?

    Show me a photo that you see thumbs on please. Link ear.gif
  • RuSuRuSu Registered Users Posts: 355 Major grins
    edited May 1, 2012
    Actually, Billie Jean & I discovered this afternoon that about 1/2 of the photos in the Daily community have thumbs showing in their original gallery, though not in the community gallery. For example, check out the Daily galleries of some of the following (just some I checked out):

    Fotoeffects
    Billiejean
    Rusu
    Godschild
    Louisannimage
    Bench4boof
    Hyderphoto
    Allbiz.smugmugmug

    Something must be different in the gallery settings, correct? But what?!


    Andy wrote: »
    Show me a photo that you see thumbs on please. Link ear.gif
  • RuSuRuSu Registered Users Posts: 355 Major grins
    edited May 1, 2012
    Yikes - Big Problem!
    Hi Andy,

    I use Firefox, while my husband uses IE8. While he IE opened, we checked the Dailies - lo & behold, the thumbs up/down shows up on eery photo in the gallery!! Thought you should know.

    Susan
    RuSu
  • AndyAndy Registered Users Posts: 50,154 Major grins
    edited May 1, 2012
    RuSu wrote: »
    Actually, Billie Jean & I discovered this afternoon that about 1/2 of the photos in the Daily community have thumbs showing in their original gallery, though not in the community gallery. For example, check out the Daily galleries of some of the following (just some I checked out):

    Fotoeffects
    Billiejean
    Rusu
    Godschild
    Louisannimage
    Bench4boof
    Hyderphoto
    Allbiz.smugmugmug

    Something must be different in the gallery settings, correct? But what?!

    Like I posted above - I made it so the gallery in the COMMUNITY won't show thumbs. It's up to individuals to make thumbs not show in their own galleries. Here's how: http://help.smugmug.com/customer/portal/articles/93248-search-browse
  • AndyAndy Registered Users Posts: 50,154 Major grins
    edited May 1, 2012
    RuSu wrote: »
    Hi Andy,

    I use Firefox, while my husband uses IE8. While he IE opened, we checked the Dailies - lo & behold, the thumbs up/down shows up on eery photo in the gallery!! Thought you should know.

    Susan
    RuSu

    Please share me a link. I cannot help without a direct link to a photo that shows the thumbs in the community gallery. If it's a personal gallery that is UP TO the gallery owner to show or not show the thumbs.
  • fotoeffectsfotoeffects Registered Users Posts: 77 Big grins
    edited May 1, 2012
    Thumbs Downer
    Like most of the folks on the dailies, I, too, have frequently experienced having a shot disappear completely from the dailies due to multiple thumbs down, even in spite of numerous positive comments on the shot. I don't feel my photos deserve special treatment but to allow one or two spiteful people to effectively removed photos of people they've targeted (for reasons known only to them) is inherently unfair. Like virtually everyone on the dailies, I see no reason to have "thumbs down" as an option. If we don't like a photo, we can comment to that effect or we can simply ignore it.

    Several years ago when this first happened to me, I submitted a number of trouble tickets to smugmug and was basically told this was my imagination. Since then, I've just tried to ignore the problem. However, yesterday I noticed that my image, which ended the day in about fifth place had substantially more comments than the other shots in front of it. I was perfectly happy to be in fifth place. All I really want is the opportunity to share my photos, but it did seem strange that all the other photos in front of mine yesterday had fewer comments and some of them had many fewer comments. I assumed that the reason my shot was in that position was that the thumbs downer had given it a number of thumbs downs. Just mentioning this as an example.

    This problem has been a discussion topic on the dailies for over a year and numerous people have left the dailies because of it.

    I hope smugmug will finally see fit to take action that makes this kind of behavior impossible!
  • AndyAndy Registered Users Posts: 50,154 Major grins
    edited May 1, 2012
    learnin wrote: »
    I hope smugmug will finally see fit to take action that makes this kind of behavior impossible!

    I'm just guessing that you've not read my posts above in this thread. Please do :D
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