Help SmugMug make a decision about giving more customer info to Pros
Baldy
Registered Users, Super Moderators Posts: 2,853 moderator
EDIT: June 2008: We now provide all the physical address info :thumb
http://blogs.smugmug.com/release-notes/2008/06/27/new-shopping-cart-june-27-2008/
We're in the midst of testing some important new Pro features :wink. You've given such great feedback, we're pretty sure we know where most Pros stand on most of the features.
When we've had questions in the past, dgrin debates have been a big help in getting things right.
The problem: Some Pros would love more contact info about who's buying their stuff. We'd love to be responsive to them. We just want to provide it in an ethically and legally sound way.
Currently, we share only the email address and the customer's first and last name with our pros. The buyer often comes to the Pro's SmugMug site because they know the Pro and it only makes sense that the Pro can contact them if there is a problem with the order, etc.
Consumers, though, are rightfully sensitive about sharing their personal information online. Some of our Pro sales come from people who aren't aware they're buying a Pro print.
To meet the needs of our Pros without ignoring the fears of our consumers, we think we should add an option to the shopping cart.
Two options we're considering:
1. Add the following text to the shopping cart at checkout:
"SmugMug provides your name and email to the photographer (Andy Williams) whose photos you're buying. Our terms with photographers forbid them from selling your contact info or using it for spam (link to definition of spam)."
The customer would then see two check boxes with the left one on by default.
(0) Just give them name and email ( ) Phone and address is okay (but not my credit card!)
Pros: You always get some contact information, even if it's just email address.
Cons: You may lose some sales from people who don't want to share their contact information.
2. Add this text to the shopping cart at checkout:
"Is it okay if we provide the photographer whose photos you're buying (Andy Williams) with your contact info? They are frequently helpful if there's a problem with the order."
(0) Yes, but not my credit card! ( ) Yes, but only my email. ( ) No.
Pros: You won't lose sales since customers feel they have control over their privacy.
Cons: You may get sales without any contact information.
Feel free to suggest wording changes or other options.
Thanks!
Baldy
http://blogs.smugmug.com/release-notes/2008/06/27/new-shopping-cart-june-27-2008/
We're in the midst of testing some important new Pro features :wink. You've given such great feedback, we're pretty sure we know where most Pros stand on most of the features.
When we've had questions in the past, dgrin debates have been a big help in getting things right.
The problem: Some Pros would love more contact info about who's buying their stuff. We'd love to be responsive to them. We just want to provide it in an ethically and legally sound way.
Currently, we share only the email address and the customer's first and last name with our pros. The buyer often comes to the Pro's SmugMug site because they know the Pro and it only makes sense that the Pro can contact them if there is a problem with the order, etc.
Consumers, though, are rightfully sensitive about sharing their personal information online. Some of our Pro sales come from people who aren't aware they're buying a Pro print.
To meet the needs of our Pros without ignoring the fears of our consumers, we think we should add an option to the shopping cart.
Two options we're considering:
1. Add the following text to the shopping cart at checkout:
"SmugMug provides your name and email to the photographer (Andy Williams) whose photos you're buying. Our terms with photographers forbid them from selling your contact info or using it for spam (link to definition of spam)."
The customer would then see two check boxes with the left one on by default.
(0) Just give them name and email ( ) Phone and address is okay (but not my credit card!)
Pros: You always get some contact information, even if it's just email address.
Cons: You may lose some sales from people who don't want to share their contact information.
2. Add this text to the shopping cart at checkout:
"Is it okay if we provide the photographer whose photos you're buying (Andy Williams) with your contact info? They are frequently helpful if there's a problem with the order."
(0) Yes, but not my credit card! ( ) Yes, but only my email. ( ) No.
Pros: You won't lose sales since customers feel they have control over their privacy.
Cons: You may get sales without any contact information.
Feel free to suggest wording changes or other options.
Thanks!
Baldy
0
Comments
I am not sure how this is going to help a pro any more?? We are given the email address and name of the customer with each order placed, if we needed to get in touch with a customer we can just email them? I think most customers would only allow there email as a contact anyway.
If SmugMug realy wants to help the PRO photographers, they should add different pkgs. for example (1-8x10, 2-5x7's, and 4-wallets) and other pkgs for a single price! this way we can offer a discounted pkg price, and help boost sales. Also, adding Photos on a baseball card or Sports Illustrated cover would be great! also selling digital images on a CD would be a great option, and one that has little overhead for smugmug since there is no printing involved.
Keep in mind, I am a sports photographer, and these are options that would really help me out, I am sure they will help most out. I have been with Smugmug since day 1, and intend on being with them for the long haul, but as my business grows, I need to be able to compeat with others that offer these items.
Paul North
NORTH Photo
As a consumer, I would never check the box that allows you to give the photographer my phone and home address. But then I have a shredder at home and I shred everything that comes in the mail that is personal – including my home address.
Anyway, given the choice, I think most people would never agree to giving out their home address. First of all, why does the photographer need it? With my email address, the photographer can contact me and then I can choose what information to give the photographer.
By the way, does Smugmug validate the email address of the buyer?
Also, what if I am buying from several photographers. Will the answers to the questions be applicable to all photographers? Or does the consumer have to answer those questions for every photographer.
And finally as a pro – if I should ever be lucky enough to ever sell a photo, I don’t want the home address of my customer. By the way, how is the home address delivered to the photographer? Via email? Will it be encrypted? Is it only given to the photographer upon request, or would the photographer get all the home addresses regardless of whether they asked for it.
I agree with northphoto. I think a valid e-mail is enough so that we can contact the customer if need be.
I assume this new feature has been requested by at significant amount of Smugmug's Pro customers. What was their reason to want this feature?
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in two billion years,
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If you were buying from multiple pros the info button you checked would apply for all pros you are ordering from. If checked "yes, give my address and phone" then the pro would get it in an email upon completion of the buyer's order.
Thanks again, it's great input!
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Thanks both of you for replying. Yes, there are many pros who've been requesting for a long time that we provide more information than we currently do.
Thanks for taking the time to let us know your thoughts on this!
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Now for the wording... there's got to be a much better more business/customer friendly way to word this... let me think on it awhile. I worked all night last night so my mind is way to foggy to think at the moment. Maybe it's just because I'm tired but as it reads either way right now is a major turn off I think. I like the idea of giving the customer an option in the cart but not the way it currently reads above. hmmmmmm....
i think the only way to do this would be to default the customers response to 'provide no information'. Anything other than that opens up the unobservant customer to be put on a pro's mailing list or get other unwanted emails. Not saying that any of OUR pro's would do that, just a hypothetical.
Not a pro, but if I were, I would think that an order history page like BWG is suggesting would be much more helpful. You could even offer different views/sorts and possibly tie it in to stats to make it a really powerful tool.
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Brian
Well,
I suppose it's nice. But, to be honest, if a customer is not going to answer an email I send them they probably don't want to talk to me.
I realize of all the requested features I've been seeing this is the easiest to implement but from what I've seen in the feature request thread this certainly didn't seem like a hot priority. Packages, coupons, the ever present custom watermarking all seem like much more desired options. I'm all for quick hitters with good ROI, but I'd rather see your IT folks working on the features giving me more options that help my business. The impact to my profitablity of having a phone number as well is pretty small compared to the other features.
That's my honest two cents!
http://photos.mikelanestudios.com/
So please, please keep the feature requests to the feature request thread.
As for Mike's question, we don't have those statistics. That is one of the reasons we want to open it up to debate, if we knew it was 10% (unlikely)... it would be a no brainer to give them options to opt out. If we knew it was .0001% (also probably unlikely), it would be a no brainer to go the other route.
Its not an easy question to answer, but we have had some very explosive and fiery threads in dpreview and (I think) here about the subject. We are trying to get the bottom of how important it is to pros, and what sort of solution they see, while trying to stay ethical towards those buying the prints.
All my clients come to me because they are aware of me in the first place. They all believe they are actually buying from me, not from Smugmug or Exposure Manager. They do not have an issue sharing their address with me simply because they are not aware of the middle man in the first place.
But personally, knowing my clients mailing address, while nice, is not that big a deal. There are other more important things for me than this. I really think this particular "pro feature" is being over-blown.
A former sports shooter
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Many realtors and lenders do marketing campaigns where they capture email addys and/or phone numbers when prospective clients respond. They can then use this information to continue contacting these prospects. Basically, trying to drum up business. I know you said no SPAM. But, I really see no reason for a Pro to contact a buyer other than to sell more prints.
I can also see how customers may feel that by providing this information, they will probably be contacted to buy more prints in the future. Maybe if you could come up with a better reason than "sometimes it helps if the Pro can contact them about their order". I'm pretty naive, but I think this isn't that believeable. I mean doesn't SM work with the Pro and EZ Prints if there's an issue? Leaving the customer out of the loop unless their order cannot be filled as requested? I'd also think in the rare cases where the Pro and customer need to communicate SM could and should play the middle-man. Afterall, they (SM) are trying to satisfy two customers. The Pro and the print buyer.
Bottomline, I would make it optional. As in "Opting Out" of sharing your personal information on a Privacy Notice. Best case, ask to share their email addy. You can ask whether they would allow SM to share their home address or phone number as a 3rd choice. Most definitely NO sharing of CREDIT CARD info by SM. I could see how this could quite easily lead to major issues. If the customer wants to share this info one-on-one with the Pro, that's their business.
Option 1: Opt out-no infomation sharing
Option 2: Share my email address only
Option 3: Share my email address and delivery information (excluding C/C info)
Just my opinion,
Steve
I agree with Steve. My customers fall into two groups, those who are buying event or farm call photos, they know me personally or professionally. The second group is for the wallhangers, and I have sold little of those because I'm very conflicted about selling what is also my stock portfolio that way and disabled printing in virtually all of those galleries.
I want e-mails on all of them, ideally. I like how Steve has stated it, easily understood for the customer.
Galleries here Upcoming Ranch/Horse Workshop
I don't really need a phone number or address. As for the question someone brought up about verifying the customer's email address, they will put a valid one so they get their receipt and tracking information sent to them....
On a side note, the prints I ordered Monday arrived today.... as always terrific job Smugmug!!!!
Glass: >Sigma 17-35mm,f2.8-4 DG >Tamron 28-75mm,f2.8 >Canon 100mm 2.8 Macro >Canon 70-200mm,f2.8L IS >Canon 200mm,f2.8L
Flash: >550EX >Sigma EF-500 DG Super >studio strobes
Sites: Jim Mitte Photography - Livingston Sports Photos - Brighton Football Photos
Baldy, you sure have our interests and hopes peaked with a statment like that!!! I think we all have our fingers crossed right now.
Glass: >Sigma 17-35mm,f2.8-4 DG >Tamron 28-75mm,f2.8 >Canon 100mm 2.8 Macro >Canon 70-200mm,f2.8L IS >Canon 200mm,f2.8L
Flash: >550EX >Sigma EF-500 DG Super >studio strobes
Sites: Jim Mitte Photography - Livingston Sports Photos - Brighton Football Photos
Great feedback, thanks.
I want to make sure I worded my original post clearly enough so no one is surprised by a change.
Currently: The Pro is given the name and email of everyone who purchases. There is no mention of it in the shopping cart, only in the terms and conditions of the site.
Option 1: Does make it clear that we're giving contact info to the photographer. This could mean that some customers may get to the checkout and decide that their privacy is so important to them that they'll decide not to purchase after all.
Option 2: Makes it clear that we're giving contact info to the customer as well, but gives them the option to say no. This could mean you won't end up with any customer info for some orders where you do get it today. But the upside of this option, is for some orders you'll get physical address. We have a number of pros who send out newsletters whenever they've done a new photo shoot, so they want that.
Clear as mud?
I also feel that this has to be fairly low down on the list as far as requested upgrades go. But anyway....
I don't need any more info from my customers than a valid email contact address and their name. I personally would find it intrusive to be asked any more than that from this type of online transaction.
If you do decide to make this part of the Pro Account shopping cart, PLEASE make it an option that I can TURN OFF at the gallery level. I don't even want my customers to have to deal with it, so they shouldn't have to see it.
Baldy, while you are here what's the status of the following?
1. Setting pricing at the category or sub-category level?
2. Custom watermark
3. Back printing
4. Gallery customization at the category and sub-category level?
Any idea as to when or if any of the above may be available?
Thanks,
Mongrel
Currently, I buy a lot of stock photography to use on SmugMug's help and marketing pages. I have my favorite vendors but of course I'd really like to buy digital images from SmugMug pros.
When I buy from Getty, I don't have to worry about them giving my contact info to the photographer, and getting a newsletter from that photographer every time he goes out on a new shoot.
If I buy from Exposure Manager, my understanding is I'm not only getting on the photographer's email list, but he's getting my home address and phone too. I'm never told this, far as I can tell. I'm not a privacy freak, but the idea of that much info in the hands of 200 unknown photogs makes even me pucker.
SmugMug is on a pretty big scale now... Lots of people are drawn to the popular photos, search, etc. Isn't it important to prevent the blogosphere's heads from exploding when they find out that when you buy from that SmugMug place they give your contact info out to as many different people as photos you bought -- and they weren't told?
Confession: I shoot photos each year at Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance and I sell them on SmugMug. As a photographer, I dearly want the email of every customer who buys one of my shots.
But I don't want to email them and have their heads explode because they think I violated their privacy.
Your thoughts.
Here are the words of one photographer from a dpreview post:
There are powerful emotions behind it. The Big One is, "It's my customer, not yours." I feel I can understand that emotion well because I kill myself at Concours, I get the customer to the page, and I feel that SmugMug is the facilitator to fill the order.
But honestly, I've never been able to understand why the physical address and phone number is so important. And we do give the name and email address. And we don't spam the customer or try to sell them on SmugMug subscriptions, so I know we're missing something important.
I have some customers that won't even order prints on line if they have to enter a credit card number. I'd just as soon not give any more reason to be concerned. I'm ok with the way things work right now. My two cents.
Bill
I'm not sure I'm totally following you here, but I'll try
If someone buys something from *me*, then it stands to reason that I will have their information. I mean when they go to my site and purchase an event or sports pic they are buying from 'Little BIG Shotz'. More than half of my customers probably don't even realize it's going through SmugMug, to EZ Prints and then on to them.
So following that scenario, to put something in writing that gives them a contact option etc. just seems to be
For this type of transaction, whether it's a single print or a digital download how could it be any other way? I guess that's why I'm confused over giving people an option. You (SmugMug that is) *are not* a stock photo agency representing *me*. I am a photographer who is using SmugMug as an internet storefront so again
Now, having said all of that and reconsidering my original comments, here is my 'new' take on it...
SmugMug SHOULD provide me with ALL the details of the transaction-period. This can be done without having to alert the customer that it is even happening. Why? Because it's MY customer and NOT SmugMugs! Again, they are buying *my* pics from *me* and have already consented to giving this information *to me* during the purchase process. So the issue isn't whether or not I *should* have the information, but whether or not SmugMug will forward me what is already *mine* and provided to *me* by the customer.
If there is some legal mumbo-jumbo involving the credit card info-fine. I can live without that and don't need it. But providing me with "the facts"-name, rank, and serial number, well why not?
Ok...
I just re-read your post above and I'm still
Maybe I'm really missing something here, so help me out...
I have a pro account, and getting the name and e-mail of the customer has always been more than enough. In fact, I haven't even had to make contact with any of them. Often times the customers contact me, via my e-mail, before buying, with any questions they have. If there is a problem with their order, and they want to contact me my e-mail is there for them. Otherwise I don't want to bother them with e-mails that may seem pushy. I don't think there needs to be another set of buttons giving unimportant options. With SmugMug doing my shipping I no longer need the home address of my customers. In fact I switched to SmugMug so I could stop dealing with all that info in the frist place. So far I have had zero complaints about my pictures, the quality, the delivery time....anything.
So in case I lost you...I don't need the extra info / options for said info.
If you decide to go that way, I want to be able to shut it off too.
The problem is, it isn't completely true. Their personal info is actually being given to us, the intermediary, and we want to pass all that we can legally, and in good conscience, to you.
We want to for many reasons:
1. It will endear us to you, our subscriber, without whom these orders wouldn't happen.
2. We believe you'll use it to make the relationship with your customer stronger.
3. We believe you won't use it for spam, making a mockery of SmugMug's anti-spam stance.
4. We know our competitors will do it without qualm, unless privacy advocates stop them.
The problem is putting yourself in the buyer's shoes. Soccer mom is told by her neighbor that she can buy pics of her daughter playing lacrosse. She has no idea who shot the photos but she sees them on a website. She buys them.
It's one thing for the unknown photographer to get her email address, quite another to get her daughter's physical address. No?
I am self fulfilling a lot of my orders locally as people are more afraid of the interface than giving out their CC or personal info. I talk to my customers, I tell them how long it will take to get their orders. I find out what causes them pain.
Another note is that I really need to know who is purchasing my photos. If I sell a copy of a photo and then find that it has been used inappropriately I need to know who did it. The person may not answer an email. But, if I send them a certified letter it might get more attention.
http://help.smugmug.com