Just leave it how it is. I think to have radio buttons to adjust the level of info given would just confuse people.
Currently, the shopping cart says, "This email address and password are used solely to send you order confirmations and let you check the status of your order."
What if we nuked the buttons and just tweaked the words a little to make it clear the email is given to the photographer who shot these photos?
Seems to me you're working for two parties here. The ordering customer and the photographer customer. Both are paying you for this service that you provide. The customer for ordering the prints and the photographer for the fulfillment of the order.
I believe that the message the ordering customer needs to get is that you are working in partnership with the photographer, and that together you provide a better service than either could on their own. Because it is a partnership you will be providing the photographer with the name and email of his/her customers.
The Big One is, "It's my customer, not yours." I feel I can understand that emotion well because I kill myself at Concours, I get the customer to the page, and I feel that SmugMug is the facilitator to fill the order.
Ditto - the customers on my site are mine-Period. I shoot events which is different by nature and certainly is directed to a specific audience and has no appeal to anyone outside that audience. If I don't get that audience to my site, well it's lights out.
Now I love SM, a check of my post can back this up, but if I quit getting the customers name and email information I'll be looking elsewhere. Didn't think I would ever say that. Always thought I would hang on here until the options I want appear. Keeping MY/OUR customers basic information from me could be a deal breaker. Just the thought kinda makes me mad.
Address / phone - just how protected is this type of information? Most of it is located in the phone book. Not getting this is not a deal breaker.
Check box - bad idea. I think most people would expect the Pro to get the info and would not give it a second thought until faced with the check box. When faced with this check box, for reasons even they can't explain (I know because it happens to me), they get suspicious and quit the deal. I work too hard to have my/our customers scared off by the box and I think this could truly hurt sells.
How about a note in the Thank You / Order Conformation screen which appears after the deal saying "Thank You for your order. The Photographer has been contacted with the information." Would that relieve your conscious conflict? This would also fit in with the option to upload proof photos then after the sell SM would contact the photog and give them 48/72 hrs to upload the corrected photos to send out to the customer. Blessing to event photogs, but this is off topic, sorry.
Greg "Tis better keep your mouth shut and be thought of as an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
Very interesting insight I would not have thought of had you not posted. Thanks.
Yes, this has been my reason for wanting the customer info. I shoot youth sports even some gymnastics (protected galleries only). If someone starts buying photos out of character I need to know. Always felt like in such a case I coud get the address from SM. Without the name/email I'm in the dark.
Greg "Tis better keep your mouth shut and be thought of as an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
My opinion is. Many times my customers assume I am in charge of my pro site at smugmug. They even think I can see what is in their shopping cart and help them with it. They assume I have all of their information when they enter it. Pictures are such that it is important you know who is getting a copy of your work - amateur or pro. I would actually LOVE LOVE! to get an email when someone has made an order. I have to check regularly so that I know to make sure they receive their prints in good order etc...but usually have no idea an order has been made.
Having their email and first and last name is all I have ever needed. Because it is their portraits or their child or family member...so I have their info before they order. But, again that is just my circumstance.
I would reallly love it if smugmug advanced into adding backing and canvas options, but i think that's the pro in me and the desire to not have so many vendors where my prints are ordered.
I believe that the message the ordering customer needs to get is that you are working in partnership with the photographer, and that together you provide a better service than either could on their own. Because it is a partnership you will be providing the photographer with the name and email of his/her customers.
DavidTO Pretty much says it all and I think that kind of helps to solidify the relationship that smugmug has with both its photographer customers (us) and its photography customers.
Y'all don't want to hear me, you just want to dance.
My opinion is. Many times my customers assume I am in charge of my pro site at smugmug. They even think I can see what is in their shopping cart and help them with it. They assume I have all of their information when they enter it. Pictures are such that it is important you know who is getting a copy of your work - amateur or pro. I would actually LOVE LOVE! to get an email when someone has made an order. I have to check regularly so that I know to make sure they receive their prints in good order etc...but usually have no idea an order has been made.
Having their email and first and last name is all I have ever needed. Because it is their portraits or their child or family member...so I have their info before they order. But, again that is just my circumstance.
I would reallly love it if smugmug advanced into adding backing and canvas options, but i think that's the pro in me and the desire to not have so many vendors where my prints are ordered.
My current system is such that I get all their info because I have to send the photos out. I don't do anything with it after I send the photos out unless they request a reprint, so it doesn't bother me either way if I get the info from my customers through SmugMug.
My info on the back of the photo they ordered is more important to me than me getting all their info.
Digital downloads is more important (20% of my sales are downloads), a discounting system for bulk orders would be good (spend more than $50 and get 10% off), and customised watermarks would be awesome. (please, please, please ...)
Option 2: Makes it clear that we're giving contact info to the customer as well, but gives them the option to say no. This could mean you won't end up with any customer info for some orders where you do get it today. But the upside of this option, is for some orders you'll get physical address. We have a number of pros who send out newsletters whenever they've done a new photo shoot, so they want that.
Clear as mud?
Hi - A long day at DCX so I will be brief and stick to the question/decision at hand. I like Option 2. This way, the customer does not HAVE to provide specific information to the photographer. But, in an earlier posting, I would hate to see a situation in which a photograph was purchased and used inappropriately!
Happy Friday Evening everyone - #2 gets my vote. I have a TON of ideas for upgrades, etc, etc, but I will save them for another summer day....
Providing the customer an option to not provide basic information that we already receive isn't an acceptable option. I need to know who is buying images.
DavidTO's option looks best to me as it truly is a partnership between the photographer and smugmug and both of the partners should be entitled to the information. I'm satisfied with only receiving the name and e-mail address.
When/if self-fulfillment becomes an option, then that of course would be a different story as the photographer would definitely require a delivery address to complete the transaction.
Thanks for asking and I'm looking forward to the other pro options that are hopefully on the near-term horizon.
0
BaldyRegistered Users, Super ModeratorsPosts: 2,853moderator
Since I called it poetry I hope you won't mind me sharing my favorite poem, which I think applies.
He Wishes For the Cloths of Heaven
W.B. Yeats
Had I the heaven's embrodered cloths,
Enwrought with golden and silver light,
The blue and the dim and the dark cloths
Of night and light and the half-light,
I would spread the cloths under your feet:
But I, being poor, have only my dreams;
I have spread my dreams under your feet;
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
It may seem too dramatic to you, but I feel like the last 3 lines apply to me very personally at SmugMug and they must apply on some level to you too.
When I read DavidTO's simple words and considered that by comparison what I had written seemed to convey thinly veiled contempt ('we forbid'...), it made me shudder a little.
The spirit of this should reflect the vast majority of our pros like Tina who delight their customers and not the very small minority who annoy their customers with pushy email.
Let me confess to being somewhat 'thick-headed' upfront...
Now that that's out of the way, let me see if I *get it*
I was under the assumption that:
1. I was a photographer who wanted a way to sell prints to customers for profit.
2. I needed a service that would provide me with-
webspace to showcase my photos
a shopping cart function that would allow people to purchase prints using a credit card
a printer, who would stand behind their work and take care of problems and customer service if necessary
3. I was paying for the above service via-
yearly fee (for webspace)
% of my profit from sales (to cover the shopping cart service and credit card fees)
4. SmugMug provided me with #2 and #3 above.
5. The relationship that SmugMug was concerned with, was their relationship with 'me'.
Now, it seems that-
1. I am a photographer who wants to sell prints for profit.
2. I am in a *partnership* with SmugMug.
3. We *share* MY customers.
4. I am not *entitled* to receive information freely given by these customers at time of print purchase because SmugMug is afraid I'll spam them and this will damage SmugMug's reputation.
Does that sound about right?
Now, I suk at math but it sure seems like something isn't exactly adding up
If every keystroke was a shutter press I'd be a pro by now...
1. I am a photographer who wants to sell prints for profit.
2. I am in a *partnership* with SmugMug.
3. We *share* MY customers.
4. I am not *entitled* to receive information freely given by these customers at time of print purchase because SmugMug is afraid I'll spam them and this will damage SmugMug's reputation.
Does that sound about right?
Now, I suk at math but it sure seems like something isn't exactly adding up
Mongrel,
That's not what I'm getting at all.
Let's work from the back, starting with #4. Smugmug is in the process of examining how they deal with customer information and pros. Nothing is set in stone right now, and you're getting in a tizzy because they've asked for input and are being transparent about the process. Relax.
#3. Sure they're your customers, but they are also smugmug's customers. They pay smugmug. Smugmug shares the profits with you, based on your charge for the print. Smugmug takes their responsibility to both paying parties seriously. That's why they guarantee the prints even if it's your mistake. They value the customer ordering the prints, they value the professional customer who posts something worth printing.
Smugmug is handling the transaction for you, that's a good part of what you pay them for. They have legal and ethical responsibilities in that transaction that they need to uphold.
They're asking for your help, not cutting you off.
hmmm...you must have picked up on someone else's bad vibe....
Tizzy? Hardly, just trying to figure out the reasoning behind not giving full information out to photgraphers who have sold prints. The simplest way to convey where my heads at is to lay it out all nice and neat like.
Sorry, but I've never really gotten 'poetry' so you have to excuse my lack of eloquence.
Even, if I were in a tizzy (which again, I'm really not), why are you so defensive about it?
And I still disagree, that "they are also SmugMug's customers". All I have to do is take away the shopping cart option, have them email me directly and I can order the prints from 'Mug or print them myself. POOF-they are *my* customers entirely, I pay Smugmug (and SmugMug sells me the 4X6 for 19 cents plus shipping...). When Mrs. Smith buys my shot of her daughter (#37 btw), in no way is she *knowingly* paying SmugMug, she is *paying* me, and I'm paying SmugMug.
(this guy means-NO TIZZY )
If every keystroke was a shutter press I'd be a pro by now...
Seems to me you're working for two parties here. The ordering customer and the photographer customer. Both are paying you for this service that you provide. The customer for ordering the prints and the photographer for the fulfillment of the order.
I believe that the message the ordering customer needs to get is that you are working in partnership with the photographer, and that together you provide a better service than either could on their own. Because it is a partnership you will be providing the photographer with the name and email of his/her customers.
This is probably said better than I can say it by DavidTo.
Before I read this, I was thinking that the root of the issue is the presentation of who the customer is buying from. If the customer thinks they are buying from the pro and that the pro uses a service to help fullfill their order, nobody is going to be surprised that the pro gets all the order information and nobody is going to be surprised that the service gets the information in order to do their part of the job. All expectations will be met without requiring any complicated privacy choices.
If the presentation makes it seem like the customer is buying from a consignment store (Smugmug) that might be sharing profits with a pro, then it all gets messy very quick. Unlike the previous scenario, different customers will have different expectations of privacy, info sharing, etc... in this circumstance. If the pro isn't even mentioned and only Smugmug is, then it really gets bad. See this thread for an example of what one pro thinks along these lines.
Further, from what I've read here and on dpreview, it really irks some pro photographers when they think their customers whom they brought to the site are led to believe they are buying from Smugmug, not from the pro. A shopping cart with no photographer branding whatsoever in it and lots of Smugmug branding is the biggest example of which way Smugmug seems to be leaning on this issue now. If I was trying to make a living as a pro photographer, I don't think I'd stand for this.
Go look at how Symantec's online store for Norton Anti-Virus works. That store is actually run by Digital River as a service to Symantec. But, the whole store is branded Symantec. There are some places where the customer needs to know they are are dealing with a service company, but not very many. In their case, even the credit card bill will say "DR-Symantec". That experience feels very much like you are buying from Symantec and a 3rd party is involved in helping fullfill your order, not the other way around.
We're in the midst of testing some important new Pro features . You've given such great feedback, we're pretty sure we know where most Pros stand on most of the features.
SNIP
Feel free to suggest wording changes or other options.
Thanks!
Baldy
Simple:
1- would you like (Andy Williams) to have better contact info for you?
(link to page that allows for any extra info input)
Keeps it nice and simple
keeps the ball in their court
Isn't offputting
Is FRIENDLY
Gives them something to think about for next time without having to make any choices AT THIS TIME (of initial purchase)
i.e. No negatives!
EDIT: just read the bit about digital downloads
That is a whole different ball game to selling prints
Presumably others have already set the trend for what is and what isnt needed in this regards i.e other image libraries?
But honestly, I've never been able to understand why the physical address and phone number is so important. And we do give the name and email address. And we don't spam the customer or try to sell them on SmugMug subscriptions, so I know we're missing something important.
I guess the physical phone No and address could be important for digital downloads because there has to be some way to check up on them if they try to hide when you notice they have been using your pics outside the licence terms???
so i'll jump on the davidTO bandwagon and agree that he has probably best defined the relationship/workflow between SM and the pros. Very eloquently as well.
I'll also amend my previous stance on defaulting to provide NO information to the pro. I wasnt aware that email and address were already provided..definitely dont want to take away a feature that the pros already have. I also understand better from a pro's perspective how important this information is.
Now not to get off topic, but I think jfriend has brought up a very important point. The perception of who the customer is buying from; aka. cart branding. If the customer always feels like they are on the pro's site, there is no question as to where their information is going. I dont believe this to be deceptive because you would use the davidTO blurb to inform the customer of the "arrangement". I would however place the blurb toward the end of the checkout process to maintain the perception of the pro's site for as long as possible.
I realize that smugmug's current model of allowing photos from multiple photographers in the cart does not fit into the branded cart scenario, but I believe there are ways to work around this while still maintaining the pro's identity. Obviously if there are only photos from one photographer in the cart, the photographer's branding should be used.
My only other suggestion at this point would be to instead of asking the customer about giving their information to the pros, ask them about their contact preference. Just allow the customer to specify whether it is okay for the photographer to contact them regarding specials and announcements. This way the photographer has the information they need in cases of abuse, but it also gives control to the customer in how they wish to be contacted.
A shopping cart with no photographer branding whatsoever
We have had requests to provide branding in the cart from pros. We've acknowledged that we understand why, and that we'd like to provide for this if we can do so safely, securely, and still protect 1000% the integrity of the cc transaction. This is a piece of the pro puzzle that we're looking hard at and care deeply about, and we know our pros do, too. Stay tuned, and thanks for posting about this important piece, John.
hmmm...you must have picked up on someone else's bad vibe....
Tizzy? Hardly, just trying to figure out the reasoning behind not giving full information out to photgraphers who have sold prints. The simplest way to convey where my heads at is to lay it out all nice and neat like.
Sorry, but I've never really gotten 'poetry' so you have to excuse my lack of eloquence.
Even, if I were in a tizzy (which again, I'm really not), why are you so defensive about it?
And I still disagree, that "they are also SmugMug's customers". All I have to do is take away the shopping cart option, have them email me directly and I can order the prints from 'Mug or print them myself. POOF-they are *my* customers entirely, I pay Smugmug (and SmugMug sells me the 4X6 for 19 cents plus shipping...). When Mrs. Smith buys my shot of her daughter (#37 btw), in no way is she *knowingly* paying SmugMug, she is *paying* me, and I'm paying SmugMug.
(this guy means-NO TIZZY )
It did seem like you were kind of upset earlier...
If you take away your customer's ability to purchase through smugmug and enjoy all the ease and speed of the shopping cart and all the automatic, amazing customer service and instead replace it with a process that requires them to email or call you, maybe make them worry about where their money is going, and make the whole order/print/ship/guarantee process take a lot longer than it otherwise would then yes, I would say those customers would be your customers. You would have figured out a way around paying Smugmug 15% and would have seriously degraded your customer's experience at the same time. Like DavidTO said, together you and smugmug can provide a service that is much better than either of you could do separately (okay, so he said it much better than I did).
You can make your purchase process more difficult right now or you can do that after smugmug makes whatever changes they come up with after this thread. But it seems to be off topic for this thread IMO other than the fact that you have illustrated that it would be quite prudent for Smugmug to solidify their relationship with you and your shared customers.
Y'all don't want to hear me, you just want to dance.
It did seem like you were kind of upset earlier...
If you take away your customer's ability to purchase through smugmug and enjoy all the ease and speed of the shopping cart and all the automatic, amazing customer service and instead replace it with a process that requires them to email or call you, maybe make them worry about where their money is going, and make the whole order/print/ship/guarantee process take a lot longer than it otherwise would then yes, I would say those customers would be your customers. You would have figured out a way around paying Smugmug 15% and would have seriously degraded your customer's experience at the same time. Like DavidTO said, together you and smugmug can provide a service that is much better than either of you could do separately (okay, so he said it much better than I did).
You can make your purchase process more difficult right now or you can do that after smugmug makes whatever changes they come up with after this thread. But it seems to be off topic for this thread IMO other than the fact that you have illustrated that it would be quite prudent for Smugmug to solidify their relationship with you and your shared customers.
I have no plans on going anywhere at the moment. The scenario described was the best way I could explain how I looked at the "whose customer is it" question. I agree that the SmugMug buying experience and all the support that goes with it is probably the best available and certainly helps me keep customers happy.
But again, no matter how wonderful the relationship may be, if I provided an alternative buyng experience (even at the expense of additional time and effort on my part) SmugMug would have no *claim* on them at all. They are *my* customers and will go where I go.
Now, as to being "off topic"? We are having a discussion, and discussions take twists and turns. And this all very much has to do with the reasoning and thought process of SmugMug Pros and how they feel about this. So, no, it's not off-topic at all imo.
If every keystroke was a shutter press I'd be a pro by now...
Simple:
1- would you like (Andy Williams) to have better contact info for you?
(link to page that allows for any extra info input)
You just bought a print from me and the 'guy' who does my printing is asking if you want *me* to have better contact info? Again, the photographer is pushed out of the equation even further and the 'printer' is controlling the transaction?
Keeps it nice and simple
keeps the ball in their court
Isn't offputting
Is FRIENDLY
Gives them something to think about for next time without having to make any choices AT THIS TIME (of initial purchase)
i.e. No negatives!
1. I don't want the ball "in their court". I want the ball in *my* court.
2. There isn't anything "offputting" to the customer as it is now, just give the pros the info and be done with it.
3. There isn't anything unfriendly about it now. The customer thinks they're buying prints directly from me.
4. I don't want my customers thinking about anything more than they just purchased wonderful prints of their "whatever" from Anthony Gargani-Photographer.
If every keystroke was a shutter press I'd be a pro by now...
...
3. There isn't anything unfriendly about it now. The customer thinks they're buying prints directly from me.
...
I think that is the issue at hand and it has already been brought up in this thread. Who does the customer think they're buying the prints from?
1. from you?
2. from smugmug?
Without a doubt, the answer for some is #1 and for others #2. Even though you may have branded your site, there is no doubt it is a smugmug shopping cart. Until a branded cart becomes an available option (not necessarily going to happen), this confusion will remain.
That is why I like DavidTo's response, which helps explain that a partnership exists between the photographer and smugmug. I also try to emphasize this on my web site, which states:
Our online order fulfillment and printing is handled by smugmug, inc. The pictures are printed by EZ Prints, a professional lab in Georgia, with outstanding quality, quick turnaround and a broad selection of prints and gifts. Your satisfaction is guaranteed!
Why not let the pro set the policy for contact with his/her customers? There seems to be more than one viable options on the table and a lot of strong feelings among the pros as to which one would work or not for them. Allow them to choose just so long as the terms are made clear to the pros' customers. The pro who wants it gets a radio button at checkout time to give the customers a choice about sharing info. The pro who just wants notification and email gets that with wording adapted from David's poetry. The pro who wants his customers to have total privacy gets that and an appropriate statement about how to contact him/her if there is an issue.
This might be a case were one size really doesn't fit all.
Oh, and as for stock photography, if you allow pros to set policy on a gallery by gallery basis, they can have a place to sell stock photography and a place for transactions with less privacy protection and the terms can be spelled out differently in each place.
We believe you won't use it for spam, making a mockery of SmugMug's anti-spam stance.
As the old Monty Python bit about "spam, spam, spam and spam with spam" goes through my head, I can't help but think these two quotes are slightly contradictory. Junk mail is Junk mail. Electronic or postal, it doesn't matter, spam is spam.
Truth be told, if you're only going to take a stance against one of those two, I'd rather you took a stance against postal spam... bits on the wire aren't an endangered resources. Every week I put an inch thick stack of catalogs in the recycling from various web sites I've purchased from once or twice and now they send me their news letters, flyers, and catalogs. Even after I religiously bombard them with emails and even phone calls asking them not to send me their stuff when it first shows up. Yes, I am a , I like to shoot landscapes, and would like them to still be around for a while.
As for how you're going to present this to the user, may I make a suggestion as a customer of a number of the pros on smug mug? First off DavidTO's wording is indeed poetry, so something very much like it would be ideal. But following that I think each pro should have an option to ask for more information. A single check box in their account setup should be all it takes, then simply itterate though the array of pros whose images are in the cart, and if they asked for it, put out the checkbox saying something like "One of the Professional Photographers you are purchasing images from, <a link to andy's page>Andy Williams</a>, would like your mailing address in addition to your email address which we always provide them under these <a link to pro account terms>terms of agreement</a>. Please check here if this is acceptable: [_]". Possibly add: "Or click here to remove their images from your shopping cart."?
Then on the final confirmation page, I would spell out exactly what information will be given to whom. Like so:
You have choosen to purchase prints from Professional Photographers hosting their sales with SmugMug, as part of this transaction some contact information about you will be provided to these photographers in accord with our agreements with them.
The following pro photographers will get your name (John Q. Sample) and email address (jonboy@sample.dom) only: <a joe's site>Joe Blow</a>, Jane Doe.
The following pro photographers will also recieve your mailing address (123 Main St, Yourtown, ST, 12345-6789): Andy Williams, Chris MacAskill.
All of these pro photographers will also be informed what images and at what sizes you choose to purchase prints of. Your billing information, including credit card information, will <a privacy policy>not be disclosed by smugmug to anyone</a>.
With the apporpriate links to terms of service, privacy policy, photographer's website, etc inserted.
SmugMug Sorcerer - Engineering Team Champion for Commerce, Finance, Security, and Data Support http://wall-art.smugmug.com/
This is probably said better than I can say it by DavidTo.
Before I read this, I was thinking that the root of the issue is the presentation of who the customer is buying from. If the customer thinks they are buying from the pro and that the pro uses a service to help fullfill their order, nobody is going to be surprised that the pro gets all the order information and nobody is going to be surprised that the service gets the information in order to do their part of the job. All expectations will be met without requiring any complicated privacy choices.
If the presentation makes it seem like the customer is buying from a consignment store (Smugmug) that might be sharing profits with a pro, then it all gets messy very quick. Unlike the previous scenario, different customers will have different expectations of privacy, info sharing, etc... in this circumstance. If the pro isn't even mentioned and only Smugmug is, then it really gets bad. See this thread for an example of what one pro thinks along these lines.
Further, from what I've read here and on dpreview, it really irks some pro photographers when they think their customers whom they brought to the site are led to believe they are buying from Smugmug, not from the pro. A shopping cart with no photographer branding whatsoever in it and lots of Smugmug branding is the biggest example of which way Smugmug seems to be leaning on this issue now. If I was trying to make a living as a pro photographer, I don't think I'd stand for this.
Go look at how Symantec's online store for Norton Anti-Virus works. That store is actually run by Digital River as a service to Symantec. But, the whole store is branded Symantec. There are some places where the customer needs to know they are are dealing with a service company, but not very many. In their case, even the credit card bill will say "DR-Symantec". That experience feels very much like you are buying from Symantec and a 3rd party is involved in helping fullfill your order, not the other way around.
In thinking about this some more, I think there are indeed two models in play here and part of the confusion is people talking for different points of view on the two different models.
Model #1: Your images are hosted at Smugmug and Smugmug lets you order prints.
In this model, everyone expects that images are really being ordered from Smugmug, that customer service comes from Smugmug and that those images were put there by a particular photographer. Questions about the images themselves should be addressed to the photographer. Questions about the products/prints you order should be addressed to Smugmug. This is pretty much how Smugmug works today and it's fine for most standard and power account holders and even some pro account holders.
In this model, I think you are already commuicating the right level of information to the photographer.
Model #2: You have a branded site and domain, you recruit your own customers and you are conducting a business.
In this model, the pro wants the Symantec model that was described above. They want a fully branded experience. They are OK with a small amount of communication about Smugmug just to make sure the customer knows who to go to for what kind of help, what to expect on their credit card bill, etc... But, Smugmug should be as much in the background as possible and should have as little of their own branding as possible. The shopping cart should be completely brandable. Pros who want this model will be absolutely fine with limiting the customer so that they can't put images from multiple sites into the same shopping cart, thus solving the branded cart problem.
Serious pros will probably want this second model, but pros should be given a choice to have model #1 (perhaps if they just don't bother to brand their experience).
In this second model, the pro expects to get full customer information and the customer will also have that expectation because of the fully branded experience with Smugmug only in the background as a service provider.
Summary: I think you need to offer two models in order to match the needs of your pros and the expectations of customers who navigate two different experiences (photographer branded vs. Smumug branded).
In thinking about this some more, I think there are indeed two models in play here and part of the confusion is people talking for different points of view on the two different models.
Model #1: Your images are hosted at Smugmug and Smugmug lets you order prints.
In this model, everyone expects that images are really being ordered from Smugmug, that customer service comes from Smugmug and that those images were put there by a particular photographer. Questions about the images themselves should be addressed to the photographer. Questions about the products/prints you order should be addressed to Smugmug. This is pretty much how Smugmug works today and it's fine for most standard and power account holders and even some pro account holders.
In this model, I think you are already commuicating the right level of information to the photographer.
Model #2: You have a branded site and domain, you recruit your own customers and you are conducting a business.
In this model, the pro wants the Symantec model that was described above. They want a fully branded experience. They are OK with a small amount of communication about Smugmug just to make sure the customer knows who to go to for what kind of help, what to expect on their credit card bill, etc... But, Smugmug should be as much in the background as possible and should have as little of their own branding as possible. The shopping cart should be completely brandable. Pros who want this model will be absolutely fine with limiting the customer so that they can't put images from multiple sites into the same shopping cart, thus solving the branded cart problem.
Serious pros will probably want this second model, but pros should be given a choice to have model #1 (perhaps if they just don't bother to brand their experience).
In this second model, the pro expects to get full customer information and the customer will also have that expectation because of the fully branded experience with Smugmug only in the background as a service provider.
Summary: I think you need to offer two models in order to match the needs of your pros and the expectations of customers who navigate two different experiences (photographer branded vs. Smumug branded).
Now that my friends is POETRY!
Here I thought everyone was seeing it this clearly, when perhaps they were not? I am a definate "#2" above. In fact, most if not all of my "for sale" pics are in password protected galleries that are tied to direct marketing from me. That's *my* business model. I don't even put pricing on my other work, and if someone wanted to buy it, they would have to contact me first anyway to arrange a price etc.
The #1 aspect described above doesn't really fit me at all. In fact, it almost sounds like SmugMug is a stock image company using the Pro accounts as a 'pool' of images for people to peruse and purchase. Here's where I must confess I "missed it". I'd never really thought about it that way. So, NOW I can see why there would be a wee bit 'o stickiness with the way customer info is handled...
I may have to expand my thinking and start putting up some of my 'other' non-event work and see what happens....
Anyway, thanks Jfriend for putting this up...
If every keystroke was a shutter press I'd be a pro by now...
Comments
What if we nuked the buttons and just tweaked the words a little to make it clear the email is given to the photographer who shot these photos?
I believe that the message the ordering customer needs to get is that you are working in partnership with the photographer, and that together you provide a better service than either could on their own. Because it is a partnership you will be providing the photographer with the name and email of his/her customers.
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Ditto - the customers on my site are mine-Period. I shoot events which is different by nature and certainly is directed to a specific audience and has no appeal to anyone outside that audience. If I don't get that audience to my site, well it's lights out.
Now I love SM, a check of my post can back this up, but if I quit getting the customers name and email information I'll be looking elsewhere. Didn't think I would ever say that. Always thought I would hang on here until the options I want appear. Keeping MY/OUR customers basic information from me could be a deal breaker. Just the thought kinda makes me mad.
Address / phone - just how protected is this type of information? Most of it is located in the phone book. Not getting this is not a deal breaker.
Check box - bad idea. I think most people would expect the Pro to get the info and would not give it a second thought until faced with the check box. When faced with this check box, for reasons even they can't explain (I know because it happens to me), they get suspicious and quit the deal. I work too hard to have my/our customers scared off by the box and I think this could truly hurt sells.
How about a note in the Thank You / Order Conformation screen which appears after the deal saying "Thank You for your order. The Photographer has been contacted with the information." Would that relieve your conscious conflict? This would also fit in with the option to upload proof photos then after the sell SM would contact the photog and give them 48/72 hrs to upload the corrected photos to send out to the customer. Blessing to event photogs, but this is off topic, sorry.
"Tis better keep your mouth shut and be thought of as an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
"Tis better keep your mouth shut and be thought of as an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
Having their email and first and last name is all I have ever needed. Because it is their portraits or their child or family member...so I have their info before they order. But, again that is just my circumstance.
I would reallly love it if smugmug advanced into adding backing and canvas options, but i think that's the pro in me and the desire to not have so many vendors where my prints are ordered.
Thanks for asking us to contribute our opinion.
Tina
Photographer and Mom of Four!
_____________________________________
http://tinafolsomphotography.com
http://photos.mikelanestudios.com/
Hi Tina, thanks so much. We really mean it.
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My info on the back of the photo they ordered is more important to me than me getting all their info.
Digital downloads is more important (20% of my sales are downloads), a discounting system for bulk orders would be good (spend more than $50 and get 10% off), and customised watermarks would be awesome. (please, please, please ...)
Dna
Hi - A long day at DCX so I will be brief and stick to the question/decision at hand. I like Option 2. This way, the customer does not HAVE to provide specific information to the photographer. But, in an earlier posting, I would hate to see a situation in which a photograph was purchased and used inappropriately!
Happy Friday Evening everyone - #2 gets my vote. I have a TON of ideas for upgrades, etc, etc, but I will save them for another summer day....
- jr
SmugMug Sites - Creative Examples
Favorite Images and SmugMug Designs
DavidTO's option looks best to me as it truly is a partnership between the photographer and smugmug and both of the partners should be entitled to the information. I'm satisfied with only receiving the name and e-mail address.
When/if self-fulfillment becomes an option, then that of course would be a different story as the photographer would definitely require a delivery address to complete the transaction.
Thanks for asking and I'm looking forward to the other pro options that are hopefully on the near-term horizon.
He Wishes For the Cloths of Heaven
W.B. Yeats
Had I the heaven's embrodered cloths,
Enwrought with golden and silver light,
The blue and the dim and the dark cloths
Of night and light and the half-light,
I would spread the cloths under your feet:
But I, being poor, have only my dreams;
I have spread my dreams under your feet;
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
It may seem too dramatic to you, but I feel like the last 3 lines apply to me very personally at SmugMug and they must apply on some level to you too.
When I read DavidTO's simple words and considered that by comparison what I had written seemed to convey thinly veiled contempt ('we forbid'...), it made me shudder a little.
The spirit of this should reflect the vast majority of our pros like Tina who delight their customers and not the very small minority who annoy their customers with pushy email.
Now that that's out of the way, let me see if I *get it*
I was under the assumption that:
1. I was a photographer who wanted a way to sell prints to customers for profit.
2. I needed a service that would provide me with-
webspace to showcase my photos
a shopping cart function that would allow people to purchase prints using a credit card
a printer, who would stand behind their work and take care of problems and customer service if necessary
3. I was paying for the above service via-
yearly fee (for webspace)
% of my profit from sales (to cover the shopping cart service and credit card fees)
4. SmugMug provided me with #2 and #3 above.
5. The relationship that SmugMug was concerned with, was their relationship with 'me'.
Now, it seems that-
1. I am a photographer who wants to sell prints for profit.
2. I am in a *partnership* with SmugMug.
3. We *share* MY customers.
4. I am not *entitled* to receive information freely given by these customers at time of print purchase because SmugMug is afraid I'll spam them and this will damage SmugMug's reputation.
Does that sound about right?
Now, I suk at math but it sure seems like something isn't exactly adding up
Mongrel,
That's not what I'm getting at all.
Let's work from the back, starting with #4. Smugmug is in the process of examining how they deal with customer information and pros. Nothing is set in stone right now, and you're getting in a tizzy because they've asked for input and are being transparent about the process. Relax.
#3. Sure they're your customers, but they are also smugmug's customers. They pay smugmug. Smugmug shares the profits with you, based on your charge for the print. Smugmug takes their responsibility to both paying parties seriously. That's why they guarantee the prints even if it's your mistake. They value the customer ordering the prints, they value the professional customer who posts something worth printing.
Smugmug is handling the transaction for you, that's a good part of what you pay them for. They have legal and ethical responsibilities in that transaction that they need to uphold.
They're asking for your help, not cutting you off.
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Nice to hear from you...
hmmm...you must have picked up on someone else's bad vibe....
Tizzy? Hardly, just trying to figure out the reasoning behind not giving full information out to photgraphers who have sold prints. The simplest way to convey where my heads at is to lay it out all nice and neat like.
Sorry, but I've never really gotten 'poetry' so you have to excuse my lack of eloquence.
Even, if I were in a tizzy (which again, I'm really not), why are you so defensive about it?
And I still disagree, that "they are also SmugMug's customers". All I have to do is take away the shopping cart option, have them email me directly and I can order the prints from 'Mug or print them myself. POOF-they are *my* customers entirely, I pay Smugmug (and SmugMug sells me the 4X6 for 19 cents plus shipping...). When Mrs. Smith buys my shot of her daughter (#37 btw), in no way is she *knowingly* paying SmugMug, she is *paying* me, and I'm paying SmugMug.
This is probably said better than I can say it by DavidTo.
Before I read this, I was thinking that the root of the issue is the presentation of who the customer is buying from. If the customer thinks they are buying from the pro and that the pro uses a service to help fullfill their order, nobody is going to be surprised that the pro gets all the order information and nobody is going to be surprised that the service gets the information in order to do their part of the job. All expectations will be met without requiring any complicated privacy choices.
If the presentation makes it seem like the customer is buying from a consignment store (Smugmug) that might be sharing profits with a pro, then it all gets messy very quick. Unlike the previous scenario, different customers will have different expectations of privacy, info sharing, etc... in this circumstance. If the pro isn't even mentioned and only Smugmug is, then it really gets bad. See this thread for an example of what one pro thinks along these lines.
Further, from what I've read here and on dpreview, it really irks some pro photographers when they think their customers whom they brought to the site are led to believe they are buying from Smugmug, not from the pro. A shopping cart with no photographer branding whatsoever in it and lots of Smugmug branding is the biggest example of which way Smugmug seems to be leaning on this issue now. If I was trying to make a living as a pro photographer, I don't think I'd stand for this.
Go look at how Symantec's online store for Norton Anti-Virus works. That store is actually run by Digital River as a service to Symantec. But, the whole store is branded Symantec. There are some places where the customer needs to know they are are dealing with a service company, but not very many. In their case, even the credit card bill will say "DR-Symantec". That experience feels very much like you are buying from Symantec and a 3rd party is involved in helping fullfill your order, not the other way around.
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Simple:
1- would you like (Andy Williams) to have better contact info for you?
(link to page that allows for any extra info input)
Keeps it nice and simple
keeps the ball in their court
Isn't offputting
Is FRIENDLY
Gives them something to think about for next time without having to make any choices AT THIS TIME (of initial purchase)
i.e. No negatives!
EDIT: just read the bit about digital downloads
That is a whole different ball game to selling prints
Presumably others have already set the trend for what is and what isnt needed in this regards i.e other image libraries?
...pics..
I guess the physical phone No and address could be important for digital downloads because there has to be some way to check up on them if they try to hide when you notice they have been using your pics outside the licence terms???
...pics..
I'll also amend my previous stance on defaulting to provide NO information to the pro. I wasnt aware that email and address were already provided..definitely dont want to take away a feature that the pros already have. I also understand better from a pro's perspective how important this information is.
Now not to get off topic, but I think jfriend has brought up a very important point. The perception of who the customer is buying from; aka. cart branding. If the customer always feels like they are on the pro's site, there is no question as to where their information is going. I dont believe this to be deceptive because you would use the davidTO blurb to inform the customer of the "arrangement". I would however place the blurb toward the end of the checkout process to maintain the perception of the pro's site for as long as possible.
I realize that smugmug's current model of allowing photos from multiple photographers in the cart does not fit into the branded cart scenario, but I believe there are ways to work around this while still maintaining the pro's identity. Obviously if there are only photos from one photographer in the cart, the photographer's branding should be used.
My only other suggestion at this point would be to instead of asking the customer about giving their information to the pros, ask them about their contact preference. Just allow the customer to specify whether it is okay for the photographer to contact them regarding specials and announcements. This way the photographer has the information they need in cases of abuse, but it also gives control to the customer in how they wish to be contacted.
We have had requests to provide branding in the cart from pros. We've acknowledged that we understand why, and that we'd like to provide for this if we can do so safely, securely, and still protect 1000% the integrity of the cc transaction. This is a piece of the pro puzzle that we're looking hard at and care deeply about, and we know our pros do, too. Stay tuned, and thanks for posting about this important piece, John.
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It did seem like you were kind of upset earlier...
If you take away your customer's ability to purchase through smugmug and enjoy all the ease and speed of the shopping cart and all the automatic, amazing customer service and instead replace it with a process that requires them to email or call you, maybe make them worry about where their money is going, and make the whole order/print/ship/guarantee process take a lot longer than it otherwise would then yes, I would say those customers would be your customers. You would have figured out a way around paying Smugmug 15% and would have seriously degraded your customer's experience at the same time. Like DavidTO said, together you and smugmug can provide a service that is much better than either of you could do separately (okay, so he said it much better than I did).
You can make your purchase process more difficult right now or you can do that after smugmug makes whatever changes they come up with after this thread. But it seems to be off topic for this thread IMO other than the fact that you have illustrated that it would be quite prudent for Smugmug to solidify their relationship with you and your shared customers.
http://photos.mikelanestudios.com/
I have no plans on going anywhere at the moment. The scenario described was the best way I could explain how I looked at the "whose customer is it" question. I agree that the SmugMug buying experience and all the support that goes with it is probably the best available and certainly helps me keep customers happy.
But again, no matter how wonderful the relationship may be, if I provided an alternative buyng experience (even at the expense of additional time and effort on my part) SmugMug would have no *claim* on them at all. They are *my* customers and will go where I go.
Now, as to being "off topic"? We are having a discussion, and discussions take twists and turns. And this all very much has to do with the reasoning and thought process of SmugMug Pros and how they feel about this. So, no, it's not off-topic at all imo.
This is makes the situation even worse imo:
You just bought a print from me and the 'guy' who does my printing is asking if you want *me* to have better contact info? Again, the photographer is pushed out of the equation even further and the 'printer' is controlling the transaction?
1. I don't want the ball "in their court". I want the ball in *my* court.
2. There isn't anything "offputting" to the customer as it is now, just give the pros the info and be done with it.
3. There isn't anything unfriendly about it now. The customer thinks they're buying prints directly from me.
4. I don't want my customers thinking about anything more than they just purchased wonderful prints of their "whatever" from Anthony Gargani-Photographer.
I think that is the issue at hand and it has already been brought up in this thread. Who does the customer think they're buying the prints from?
1. from you?
2. from smugmug?
Without a doubt, the answer for some is #1 and for others #2. Even though you may have branded your site, there is no doubt it is a smugmug shopping cart. Until a branded cart becomes an available option (not necessarily going to happen), this confusion will remain.
That is why I like DavidTo's response, which helps explain that a partnership exists between the photographer and smugmug. I also try to emphasize this on my web site, which states:
Our online order fulfillment and printing is handled by smugmug, inc. The pictures are printed by EZ Prints, a professional lab in Georgia, with outstanding quality, quick turnaround and a broad selection of prints and gifts. Your satisfaction is guaranteed!
This might be a case were one size really doesn't fit all.
What about an extra line of info on each cart item that specifies where it came from?
Like this:
that seems like it would communicate quite clearly that the customer is doing business with smugmug and the photographer.
See you later, gs
http://georgesphotos.net
http://georgesphotos.net
As the old Monty Python bit about "spam, spam, spam and spam with spam" goes through my head, I can't help but think these two quotes are slightly contradictory. Junk mail is Junk mail. Electronic or postal, it doesn't matter, spam is spam.
Truth be told, if you're only going to take a stance against one of those two, I'd rather you took a stance against postal spam... bits on the wire aren't an endangered resources. Every week I put an inch thick stack of catalogs in the recycling from various web sites I've purchased from once or twice and now they send me their news letters, flyers, and catalogs. Even after I religiously bombard them with emails and even phone calls asking them not to send me their stuff when it first shows up. Yes, I am a
As for how you're going to present this to the user, may I make a suggestion as a customer of a number of the pros on smug mug? First off DavidTO's wording is indeed poetry, so something very much like it would be ideal. But following that I think each pro should have an option to ask for more information. A single check box in their account setup should be all it takes, then simply itterate though the array of pros whose images are in the cart, and if they asked for it, put out the checkbox saying something like "One of the Professional Photographers you are purchasing images from, <a link to andy's page>Andy Williams</a>, would like your mailing address in addition to your email address which we always provide them under these <a link to pro account terms>terms of agreement</a>. Please check here if this is acceptable: [_]". Possibly add: "Or click here to remove their images from your shopping cart."?
Then on the final confirmation page, I would spell out exactly what information will be given to whom. Like so:
With the apporpriate links to terms of service, privacy policy, photographer's website, etc inserted.
http://wall-art.smugmug.com/
In thinking about this some more, I think there are indeed two models in play here and part of the confusion is people talking for different points of view on the two different models.
Model #1: Your images are hosted at Smugmug and Smugmug lets you order prints.
In this model, everyone expects that images are really being ordered from Smugmug, that customer service comes from Smugmug and that those images were put there by a particular photographer. Questions about the images themselves should be addressed to the photographer. Questions about the products/prints you order should be addressed to Smugmug. This is pretty much how Smugmug works today and it's fine for most standard and power account holders and even some pro account holders.
In this model, I think you are already commuicating the right level of information to the photographer.
Model #2: You have a branded site and domain, you recruit your own customers and you are conducting a business.
In this model, the pro wants the Symantec model that was described above. They want a fully branded experience. They are OK with a small amount of communication about Smugmug just to make sure the customer knows who to go to for what kind of help, what to expect on their credit card bill, etc... But, Smugmug should be as much in the background as possible and should have as little of their own branding as possible. The shopping cart should be completely brandable. Pros who want this model will be absolutely fine with limiting the customer so that they can't put images from multiple sites into the same shopping cart, thus solving the branded cart problem.
Serious pros will probably want this second model, but pros should be given a choice to have model #1 (perhaps if they just don't bother to brand their experience).
In this second model, the pro expects to get full customer information and the customer will also have that expectation because of the fully branded experience with Smugmug only in the background as a service provider.
Summary: I think you need to offer two models in order to match the needs of your pros and the expectations of customers who navigate two different experiences (photographer branded vs. Smumug branded).
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Now that my friends is POETRY!
Here I thought everyone was seeing it this clearly, when perhaps they were not? I am a definate "#2" above. In fact, most if not all of my "for sale" pics are in password protected galleries that are tied to direct marketing from me. That's *my* business model. I don't even put pricing on my other work, and if someone wanted to buy it, they would have to contact me first anyway to arrange a price etc.
The #1 aspect described above doesn't really fit me at all. In fact, it almost sounds like SmugMug is a stock image company using the Pro accounts as a 'pool' of images for people to peruse and purchase. Here's where I must confess I "missed it". I'd never really thought about it that way. So, NOW I can see why there would be a wee bit 'o stickiness with the way customer info is handled...
I may have to expand my thinking and start putting up some of my 'other' non-event work and see what happens....
Anyway, thanks Jfriend for putting this up...