i am also surprised the lightning shot didnt get in - but that is art - it is subjective.
as far as the two cigarette shots goes - the one that made it is obviously superior IMO. the framing and color selection and the trail of smoke are 10x as nice.
i am also surprised the lightning shot didnt get in - but that is art - it is subjective.
as far as the two cigarette shots goes - the one that made it is obviously superior IMO. the framing and color selection and the trail of smoke are 10x as nice.
I never had a cigarette do that! (At least from 26 years of experience smoking them!)
We'd love to hear new ways to improve the challenges. We crave the feedback. One idea that's been discussed many times, is that of choosing first amongst all entries, then having a final vote of the top 10. We don't do this, because simply, it's just too much work and effort for the volunteers that run the challenge. And it really complicates things. The general agreeement a while back was that moving to rotating judges has helped in the seletion process.
If you have more ideas, we'd love to hear them!
I think members voting on all of the contestants would take too long and would discourage some people from voting at all. The previous challenge had 70+ entries and there were so many great ones. I would have been hard-pressed to even select the top 10. IMO the winner is not important....it is the challenging of one's self to think up an idea and execute it and to view other's perception and subequent creativity. These challenges occur every 2 weeks and we need to be able to put the prior one behind so we can move on to the next! Rotating the judges is perfectly fair to me. I don't see any need for improvement. (Oh....and I haven't won a challenge yet, either! )
It's suppose to be fun and to learn and to share experience
Beaside tehnique, frameing, composition aso. the main quality of a photo is , IMHO, to be pleasant and therefore it is subjective.
So let's move to the next Challenge.
Cristian.
[SIZE=-1]It's niceto be important, but it's more important to be nice. - John Lennon.[/SIZE]
Some body help me out here. I have just gone over the entries into the challenge and there a bunch of excellent shots in there. I'm glad that I didn't have to choose 10 finalists, no matter which way you went you would have left out some excellent shots.
Even with the list narrowed down to 10 shots there's no "fair" way to say one shot is better than all the rest. When you vote the only thing you can do is pick the shot that appeals to your subjective taste.
Anytime you have a photo contest the end result won't be "fair". Its the nature of the beast. I've participated in the past in various challenges and contests. Each one was run differently and each was "unfair" in its own particular manner.
Why can't we just accept that any challenge of contest will not be "fair" and just live with it? No one's life has ever been changed by winning or losing one of these things.
Harry http://behret.smugmug.com/NANPA member How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
There is no such thing as "fair" in any facet of life.....just someones idea of what it must be in order for things to work out for them. Sure there are general consensus interpretations of what fair is.....but there again only because a common interest is served. Looks like it all boils down to the number one human trait (IMO)......selfishness.
Now if anyone thinks these remarks are pointed at anyone in particular.....that's your agenda, not mine.
I think members voting on all of the contestants would take too long and would discourage some people from voting at all. The previous challenge had 70+ entries and there were so many great ones. I would have been hard-pressed to even select the top 10. IMO the winner is not important....it is the challenging of one's self to think up an idea and execute it and to view other's perception and subequent creativity. These challenges occur every 2 weeks and we need to be able to put the prior one behind so we can move on to the next! Rotating the judges is perfectly fair to me. I don't see any need for improvement. (Oh....and I haven't won a challenge yet, either! )
Indeed!
Now, I have only participated in one challenge so far...and I lost miserably, which I was all good with. That means that I keep trying! Now, I have time issues, so I don't get to participate as much as I'd like, but when I lose again, which I am sure I will, I shall take it with a grain of salt, figure out why the winners won and I didn't, and learn from it.
The idea of voting happening for all entries is great, very democratic, and unfortunately, I don't see it working. Way more work for people that don't have time, and aren't getting paid. /shrug Just my two cents.
Feels like Andy and HarryB are verbally 'clubbing' me and truth. At least it is a more interesting discussion than 'All 10 finalists are great - I had trouble choosing'.
What I have not seen discussed, is the suggestion (seconded and thirded) to have anonymous posting of entries. Is it a technical pain? Not worth discussing becasue it has been suggested and rejected before? Or because it changes the spirit of community involvement? [that is not a bad thing]
My somewhat terse previous post was meant to explore the idea that subjective contests can be made more fair. Perhaps the PERCEPTION of fairness is what I really am addressing. I truly believe the judges are trying to be fair and impartial. But they are human. As a theoretical example - if an image is posted for critique by a long time grinner who has been trying to improve their technique, and 20 people comment on how great it is, are the judges immune to some sublimital influence by those opinions? I think not.
A note to Andy and other moderators: I apologize for any implied dishonesty or unfairness. I run a series of amateur bike races, and have set up a lot of rules to try to make everyone happy and be fair. But there are some people cannot get past their own narrow self interest, and it upsets me when they complain. Such is life. Thankfully there is lots of good beer to make it all better.
As a theoretical example - if an image is posted for critique by a long time grinner who has been trying to improve their technique, and 20 people comment on how great it is, are the judges immune to some sublimital influence by those opinions? I think not.
I can't speak for anyone else who's judged the challenges, but when I did, I never looked at anything but the challenge thread. All of the other threads where people posted for comment was more work and more confusing to me than just looking at their submissions.
And no, I don't think anonymous would work, anyway. Then you couldn't even post your images for feedback.
I agree with Davidto on that re anonymous, for the reason he gave.
I do think there is favoritism, sometimes in the voting. I have been a co judge, and I have never seen favoritism there.
I will somewhat vote for ..................well, I think, and it is only my opinion, but you know the academy awards where an actor didn't win for a great job in a great role and a year or so later wins for a lesser job, or so it appears.
I think that kind of thing is less common here, in fact I cannot come up with an example, but that is not saying that couldn't happen. But it takes more than one vote to win. It takes more than one judge to choose the finalists.
It is very hard to choose. One time when I was involved, someone posted their shot on the "whip me" thing to find out what was wrong with his/hers and why it didn't get chosen. That was kind of inventive, but it couldn't tell him/her why
it didn't get chosen. It just didn't, and it was a very good shot.
I don't see a better way, and I think the challenges are becoming more difficult as we have so many really good photographers here now. I will probably enter another one sometime, but I think my days are really over and I am better off staying away from it. I am very sensitive, if I work hard, and if I don't work hard...........well, that is not the point either.
But I can't say what I will do in the future.
But I can say that probably all that was said here today has a grain of truth. Nothing, no one, is perfect. I don't know of a perfect system for most things.
The one thing that I can say is that I don't want to run the challenge, and until the day comes when I would run it, well, I don't even begin to want to tell other people how to run it.
Oh, as far as crtiques go, I have seen glowing critiques for shots that I did not think would be picked, and they weren't. When I was co judge, I stayed away from that stuff, I did not want to be swayed by that. They all stay away, as far as I know. I put my stuff up for critique often. If I am going to enter. Partly I enjoy the camaraderie, and partly, well, I have another reason.............but it doesn't have anything to do with the judges.
And the suggestions may help me then and in the future.
Feels like Andy and HarryB are verbally 'clubbing' me and truth. At least it is a more interesting discussion than 'All 10 finalists are great - I had trouble choosing'.
What I have not seen discussed, is the suggestion (seconded and thirded) to have anonymous posting of entries. Is it a technical pain? Not worth discussing becasue it has been suggested and rejected before? Or because it changes the spirit of community involvement? [that is not a bad thing]
My somewhat terse previous post was meant to explore the idea that subjective contests can be made more fair. Perhaps the PERCEPTION of fairness is what I really am addressing. I truly believe the judges are trying to be fair and impartial. But they are human. As a theoretical example - if an image is posted for critique by a long time grinner who has been trying to improve their technique, and 20 people comment on how great it is, are the judges immune to some sublimital influence by those opinions? I think not.
A note to Andy and other moderators: I apologize for any implied dishonesty or unfairness. I run a series of amateur bike races, and have set up a lot of rules to try to make everyone happy and be fair. But there are some people cannot get past their own narrow self interest, and it upsets me when they complain. Such is life. Thankfully there is lots of good beer to make it all better.
Tomas, no worries at all - we really crave the feedback. Thanks for that.
Anonymous won't work for two reasons: 1) the feedback prior to entering 2) the pita of matching up entries, etc.
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Frankly, I'm OK with how it's run now even though I've never made the cut. Even so, what do you think about having the judges post a short blurb under each entry to quickly say why they didn't make the cut? Just something quick and to the point like "doesn't fit theme" or "subject lacks interest" or even "technical flaws."
Frankly, most photos that I see missing the top ten (my own shots included) do so because they seem off-topic, for lack of a better word. There were some shots submitted for this challenge that I couldn't find anything turbulent in.
. Even so, what do you think about having the judges post a short blurb under each entry to quickly say why they didn't make the cut? Just something quick and to the point like "doesn't fit theme" or "subject lacks interest" or even "technical flaws."
Wow, that sounds like a terrible idea to me (no offense ) It would set us up for endless arguments with the judges, who have a tough enough job as is. As it stands, we only get into these spats on occasion. Be careful what you wish for.
I tried continuously for 18 months to win a contest before the system was changed to our current version and then I WON!!!! So CLEARLY the system is perfect, leave it alone!
close, but not quite. kerosene tiki torch. Bunsen burners entrain plenty of excess air and rarely burn imcompletely.
An after hours bunson burner!
What irked me most was that you cropped it out. Woulda been a stronger image with the torch in frame. Cropping it where you did the photo seems cut off. bah.
A modest proposal
I think the existing challenge method is pretty good and don't really see a great need to change it. But here's an alternative that might also work, providing that Dgrin's software could be customized to support it.
There would be a single round of voting. All submissions are eligible, as long as they meet the date range and other requirements, as determined by a judge. Each voter gets to select a first, second and third choice. These are assigned 3,2 and 1 points, respectively. At the conclusion of the voting period, the highest point total wins.
This system should satisfy those who feel that there is something undemocratic about the current first round. By letting voters express more than a single choice, it is likely to give a reasonable number of people some positive reinforcement. I suggested 3 choices to make participation relatively painless, but more could be granted if that's what people want.
This system almost eliminates the role of the judge, who really becomes a clerk. That would lighten the workload of the moderators, which is a good thing. On the other hand, some people (myself included) feel that having two accomplished photographers select the finalists adds value to the process. Democracy is not always the best solution to every problem.
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as far as the two cigarette shots goes - the one that made it is obviously superior IMO. the framing and color selection and the trail of smoke are 10x as nice.
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I was referring to his first first post.
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
I never had a cigarette do that! (At least from 26 years of experience smoking them!)
I think members voting on all of the contestants would take too long and would discourage some people from voting at all. The previous challenge had 70+ entries and there were so many great ones. I would have been hard-pressed to even select the top 10. IMO the winner is not important....it is the challenging of one's self to think up an idea and execute it and to view other's perception and subequent creativity. These challenges occur every 2 weeks and we need to be able to put the prior one behind so we can move on to the next! Rotating the judges is perfectly fair to me. I don't see any need for improvement. (Oh....and I haven't won a challenge yet, either!
Just remember, people view art differently. Whats good to one, isn't to another.
Beaside tehnique, frameing, composition aso. the main quality of a photo is , IMHO, to be pleasant and therefore it is subjective.
So let's move to the next Challenge.
[SIZE=-1]It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice. - John Lennon.[/SIZE]
Even with the list narrowed down to 10 shots there's no "fair" way to say one shot is better than all the rest. When you vote the only thing you can do is pick the shot that appeals to your subjective taste.
Anytime you have a photo contest the end result won't be "fair". Its the nature of the beast. I've participated in the past in various challenges and contests. Each one was run differently and each was "unfair" in its own particular manner.
Why can't we just accept that any challenge of contest will not be "fair" and just live with it? No one's life has ever been changed by winning or losing one of these things.
http://behret.smugmug.com/ NANPA member
How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
You must be damn quick because that was edited out within seconds. Even I knew I'd crossed the line.
it's a bunson burner, but that's not the issue at hand.
Well, maybe there's hope then.
Now if anyone thinks these remarks are pointed at anyone in particular.....that's your agenda, not mine.
Indeed!
Now, I have only participated in one challenge so far...and I lost miserably, which I was all good with.
The idea of voting happening for all entries is great, very democratic, and unfortunately, I don't see it working. Way more work for people that don't have time, and aren't getting paid. /shrug Just my two cents.
~Jer
What I have not seen discussed, is the suggestion (seconded and thirded) to have anonymous posting of entries. Is it a technical pain? Not worth discussing becasue it has been suggested and rejected before? Or because it changes the spirit of community involvement? [that is not a bad thing]
My somewhat terse previous post was meant to explore the idea that subjective contests can be made more fair. Perhaps the PERCEPTION of fairness is what I really am addressing. I truly believe the judges are trying to be fair and impartial. But they are human. As a theoretical example - if an image is posted for critique by a long time grinner who has been trying to improve their technique, and 20 people comment on how great it is, are the judges immune to some sublimital influence by those opinions? I think not.
A note to Andy and other moderators: I apologize for any implied dishonesty or unfairness. I run a series of amateur bike races, and have set up a lot of rules to try to make everyone happy and be fair. But there are some people cannot get past their own narrow self interest, and it upsets me when they complain. Such is life. Thankfully there is lots of good beer to make it all better.
TomsProPhoto
I can't speak for anyone else who's judged the challenges, but when I did, I never looked at anything but the challenge thread. All of the other threads where people posted for comment was more work and more confusing to me than just looking at their submissions.
And no, I don't think anonymous would work, anyway. Then you couldn't even post your images for feedback.
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
lose the challange
get comments
not get comments
post credit w/photo or not
ad naseaum
this is what some people concern themsleves with
Man I wish my life was that easy !!
You know if had anything to say about the Challange, I'd pull the Dang Thing.
Then some would probably lament as to why that happened
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I do think there is favoritism, sometimes in the voting. I have been a co judge, and I have never seen favoritism there.
I will somewhat vote for ..................well, I think, and it is only my opinion, but you know the academy awards where an actor didn't win for a great job in a great role and a year or so later wins for a lesser job, or so it appears.
I think that kind of thing is less common here, in fact I cannot come up with an example, but that is not saying that couldn't happen. But it takes more than one vote to win. It takes more than one judge to choose the finalists.
It is very hard to choose. One time when I was involved, someone posted their shot on the "whip me" thing to find out what was wrong with his/hers and why it didn't get chosen. That was kind of inventive, but it couldn't tell him/her why
it didn't get chosen. It just didn't, and it was a very good shot.
I don't see a better way, and I think the challenges are becoming more difficult as we have so many really good photographers here now. I will probably enter another one sometime, but I think my days are really over and I am better off staying away from it. I am very sensitive, if I work hard, and if I don't work hard...........well, that is not the point either.
But I can't say what I will do in the future.
But I can say that probably all that was said here today has a grain of truth. Nothing, no one, is perfect. I don't know of a perfect system for most things.
The one thing that I can say is that I don't want to run the challenge, and until the day comes when I would run it, well, I don't even begin to want to tell other people how to run it.
Oh, as far as crtiques go, I have seen glowing critiques for shots that I did not think would be picked, and they weren't. When I was co judge, I stayed away from that stuff, I did not want to be swayed by that. They all stay away, as far as I know. I put my stuff up for critique often. If I am going to enter. Partly I enjoy the camaraderie, and partly, well, I have another reason.............but it doesn't have anything to do with the judges.
And the suggestions may help me then and in the future.
ginger
Anonymous won't work for two reasons: 1) the feedback prior to entering 2) the pita of matching up entries, etc.
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Apple MacBook Pro with dual 24" monitors
Domke F-802 bag and a Shootsac by Jessica Claire
Infiniti QX4
Frankly, I'm OK with how it's run now even though I've never made the cut. Even so, what do you think about having the judges post a short blurb under each entry to quickly say why they didn't make the cut? Just something quick and to the point like "doesn't fit theme" or "subject lacks interest" or even "technical flaws."
Frankly, most photos that I see missing the top ten (my own shots included) do so because they seem off-topic, for lack of a better word. There were some shots submitted for this challenge that I couldn't find anything turbulent in.
Anyway, those are my two cents.
http://photos.mikelanestudios.com/
ive been smoking for too long (13 years here) and ive held my cigarette straight up and watched the smoke go straight up shortly before spreading out.
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:deadhorse
An after hours bunson burner!
What irked me most was that you cropped it out. Woulda been a stronger image with the torch in frame. Cropping it where you did the photo seems cut off. bah.
Same war they've been fighting since 1948.
I think the existing challenge method is pretty good and don't really see a great need to change it. But here's an alternative that might also work, providing that Dgrin's software could be customized to support it.
There would be a single round of voting. All submissions are eligible, as long as they meet the date range and other requirements, as determined by a judge. Each voter gets to select a first, second and third choice. These are assigned 3,2 and 1 points, respectively. At the conclusion of the voting period, the highest point total wins.
This system should satisfy those who feel that there is something undemocratic about the current first round. By letting voters express more than a single choice, it is likely to give a reasonable number of people some positive reinforcement. I suggested 3 choices to make participation relatively painless, but more could be granted if that's what people want.
This system almost eliminates the role of the judge, who really becomes a clerk. That would lighten the workload of the moderators, which is a good thing. On the other hand, some people (myself included) feel that having two accomplished photographers select the finalists adds value to the process. Democracy is not always the best solution to every problem.
Anyway, something to think about.