I think the existing challenge method is pretty good and don't really see a great need to change it. But here's an alternative that might also work, providing that Dgrin's software could be customized to support it.
There would be a single round of voting. All submissions are eligible, as long as they meet the date range and other requirements, as determined by a judge. Each voter gets to select a first, second and third choice. These are assigned 3,2 and 1 points, respectively. At the conclusion of the voting period, the highest point total wins.
This system should satisfy those who feel that there is something undemocratic about the current first round. By letting voters express more than a single choice, it is likely to give a reasonable number of people some positive reinforcement. I suggested 3 choices to make participation relatively painless, but more could be granted if that's what people want.
This system almost eliminates the role of the judge, who really becomes a clerk. That would lighten the workload of the moderators, which is a good thing. On the other hand, some people (myself included) feel that having two accomplished photographers select the finalists adds value to the process. Democracy is not always the best solution to every problem.
Anyway, something to think about.
Thanks Richard, we don't have the ability to do such a voting mechanism.
I suppose we were past due for yet another round of whinging about the photo challenges.
What might save everyone some time, is if we had a list of all the previous threads on this topic, and no-one was allowed to post unless they were sure their exact same post hadn't been written before.
I'm still trying to figure out how a consistent bias can creep into the judging when each week, both judges are new!
Thanks Richard, we don't have the ability to do such a voting mechanism.
As Andy said, the current forum software does not allow for more that 10 choices in one poll, rendering your - otherwise, I agree, very nice - idea impractical right off the bat..
You can treat this system as "reverse US elections". In US, people vote for the electoral college, and then they choose the President. Here electoral college prepares the candidates and we vote for those they have chosen.
Not perfect, I agree, but far better than what we used to have in USSR just 20 years ago: only one party, only one candidate, and if you don't vote "for" - you're in big trouble...
just pwn the next challenge. i can see that there were two candlight photos, but you cant have two candlelight photos in the end for voting. be ORIGINAL and you'll most likely be picked. you can't win everytime!
Waxy had my thoughts exactly. After being here for a few years now, this debate seems to rear it's ugly head every 6 months. Just go back using the search function and find these threads repeatedly. Invariably it is started by someone new to the site who feels snubbed that his picture wasn't picked or didn't win.
Welcome to DGrin. Be civil when you get here and don't expect to change the rules shortly after your arrival. Don't like the challenge rules which have evolved to their present state over the past few years? Don't enter the challenge. Most of all, be civil and considerate when discussing these things with the people here who volunteer their time.
Pitching to the Judges
Those who have be around awhile know what the judges are looking for: sort of like your mother entering a blueberry pie in the fair becasue she knows it is the judge's favorite flavor.
Those who have be around awhile know what the judges are looking for: sort of like your mother entering a blueberry pie in the fair becasue she knows it is the judge's favorite flavor.
That would be kind of hard since the judges are constantly rotated. One judge is the winner of the prior challenge and the other is one of the mods who are rotated every 2-3 challenges.
Harry http://behret.smugmug.com/NANPA member How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
i am fairly new here, and it seems to me the current system is fair - the way the judges are rotated and the contest winner joins in.
i was surprised that the lightning pic was not chosen while 2 swimming/1surfing pic were chosen (the surfing pic didnt really pop) and a bottle with seltzer water was chosen.
but that is my subjective opinion.
as far as the smoke shots in question by the OP, i stated my also subjective opinion that the one chosen was superior.
but it seems from most of the contests i have seen so far, the best tend to get in, again, my opinion
That would be kind of hard since the judges are constantly rotated. One judge is the winner of the prior challenge and the other is one of the mods who are rotated every 2-3 challenges.
When I'm a mod judge I pick the entries that deposit the most cash to my paypal account Actually I only pick those entries from people that I like who deposited money in my account (although everyone is encouraged to make a deposit). Well okay, even if I like you and you deposited a large sum of money into my paypal account I won't pick your pic unless it's in all cool tones. And it's got to have kittens in it. Cute kittens. Lots of cute kittens in cool tones or you don't have a chance of winning.
So just remember, when I'm up to bat you need three things. 1) a large paypal deposit to my paypal account, 2) to get in all buddy buddy with me weeks prior (may as well start now), and 3) a cooling filter and some kittens.
If you don't have all 3 you may as well sit that competition out. Just saying.
Y'all don't want to hear me, you just want to dance.
When I'm a mod judge I pick the entries that deposit the most cash to my paypal account Actually I only pick those entries from people that I like who deposited money in my account (although everyone is encouraged to make a deposit). Well okay, even if I like you and you deposited a large sum of money into my paypal account I won't pick your pic unless it's in all cool tones. And it's got to have kittens in it. Cute kittens. Lots of cute kittens in cool tones or you don't have a chance of winning.
So just remember, when I'm up to bat you need three things. 1) a large paypal deposit to my paypal account, 2) to get in all buddy buddy with me weeks prior (may as well start now), and 3) a cooling filter and some kittens.
If you don't have all 3 you may as well sit that competition out. Just saying.
Dang Mike would you lay off the strong-arm tactics!!! I told you I'd finish paying off by the end of July. I'll make the final installment to your account next week and not a moment too soon with the friggin' interest rates you're charging... LORDY!!!
Dang Mike would you lay off the strong-arm tactics!!! I told you I'd finish paying off by the end of July. I'll make the final installment to your account next week and not a moment too soon with the friggin' interest rates you're charging... LORDY!!!
Remember mate...im up to bat soon. Paypal still fine but unfortunately due to crude oil & the Hang Seng ...well...you know what i mean mate, its all out in the open now.
Dang Mike would you lay off the strong-arm tactics!!! I told you I'd finish paying off by the end of July. I'll make the final installment to your account next week and not a moment too soon with the friggin' interest rates you're charging... LORDY!!!
Don't make me call "the boys". You were just fortunate that I hadn't installed my cool tones kitty pics policy yet :poke
Y'all don't want to hear me, you just want to dance.
I agree - there seems to be a decidedly 'clubby' tendency in selecting images for the final 10. Of course, having entered a half dozen or so contests and never getting selected may have soured me somewhat. :cry
Certainly not worth losing any sleep over it. I just use the contest theme for inspiration and ideas when I am in a situation that matches up.
Man and I never have made the finals either!!!
I can just tell you from my experience i used to think the same thing. But not making a challenge final doesnt mean your a bad photographer. Heck I think I take pretty darn good photos. But the challenge is just that, a challenge, be it a challenge to create an interesting image out of some simple concept, a challenge to shoot something different than you normally do, or maybe just simply a challenge to take your camera out one more day, to look through the lens in one more interesting way.
But I wouldnt say its clubby....
I am more throwing this all out cause at one point I was like "what the heck, that was a real darn good photo!!!" whats the deal. And I thought there was some sort of club dgrin conspiriacy (sounds like a great new book huh?) but its not, there are some people that give alot of time to this website, to challenge, to inspire and to help us become better photograhpers no matter what we are shooting. Be it your grandaughter to NCAA sports.
Just like any other photo contest you may enter its judged by humans, and as much as we try to not let it influence us we ALL have personal preferences.
just my 2cents......and taking in to account the time value of money (:) so excited about 10 more days and im done with my masters....woohooo, maybe then i can try this whole challenge thing myself again)
I think the moderators are doing an outstanding job .. . i really enjoy the site . . but dang some of you guys whine like my 6th grade history class... keep the challenges going . .." it's a challenge not a contest" "it's for fun not for life"
My main attraction to DGRIN: the stellar photo contest winners, at least that was the first thing that grabbed me.
My comment to the OP: I too felt that my entry was superior to some of the ones that made it. I'm very discouraged over it, although many of the entries (and some also not picked) I would have placed above my own.
Of the top contenders, most are the very last I would have picked. My pick would have been This entry, that also didn't make it.
Hey, photography judging is subjective and unfair, and that's especially true in the open market.
My preference would be to model it after POTN. A page of numbered thumbnails with slideshow capability and allowing a vote on more than just one (because that loosens the creative juices).
Then if you get a goose-egg you know you sucked in nearly everyone's eyes. If you win, it's pretty clear yours was the best and no chum of the regulars or general reputation was involved.
All that said; they are getting a lot of interest and a lot of activity on the voting threads. I ran the contest on another forum and it died a quick death due to such loose rules and this method makes for a tightly run contest. So I'd say, "live with it and don't take it so personally".
Jeez, this sounds like something I've read before..like a 57 times!
Enter the challenge if you like it.
Don't if you don't.
.
I have been on here for quite some time and I don't recall 57 discussions about it. If there were, that would be something.
As I stated earlier, the challenge is a good thing and the people that run it do a great job, but there is nothing wrong with looking at other ways to possibly improve on it. Sometimes you just have to look outside the box!
Frankly, I'm OK with how it's run now even though I've never made the cut. Even so, what do you think about having the judges post a short blurb under each entry to quickly say why they didn't make the cut? Just something quick and to the point like "doesn't fit theme" or "subject lacks interest" or even "technical flaws."
Frankly, most photos that I see missing the top ten (my own shots included) do so because they seem off-topic, for lack of a better word. There were some shots submitted for this challenge that I couldn't find anything turbulent in.
Anyway, those are my two cents.
Wow! This thread has really opened up a can of worms. I'll just add my thoughts.
I joined DGrin in December & very quickly discovered the Challenges. I thought it was a great idea & gives me a theme & focus for my photography. It means I have something to look for when i go out to take pics, not just willy nilly shooting at things that are "pretty". I try & be as creative as possible, thinking outside the box. I think the critiques are great as they give me another perspective on my work, as sometimes you can become too "protective" of your own work & another persons view can improve your work imensely.
What I have found is that this always doesn't work with my photos for the challenge. Pics that I think are great don't get picked & others that people say are great don't get picked either. However, even if I'm disappointed I didn't get picked, there's always the next challenge to try for (one of my goals this year is to win a challenge ). There was only one challenge where I really couldn't understand how the winner was selected as i felt it didn't answer the brief at all & that my pic did (to my mind). That's how I view the initial blurb about the challenge, a brief & with design briefs the wording is quite exact as to what is required & I do sometimes feel that people don't answer the "brief" with their photos. I feel you should be able to guess the challenge theme from the photo without there being a title, but that's just my take on things.
It would be a shame to lose the opportunity to take part in these challenges, just because of someone's sour grapes. I don't have time to sort through all the other galleries & hosting sites to find someone who does a similar thing. I like it here even if I don't always agree with everything. Its convenient for me & beneficial as I get a lot of great advice & hopefully give good/reasonable input too. Its also fun & isn't that what our hobby/passion/work is supposed to be all about?
Nicola
Iconic Creative http://iconiccreative.smugmug.com "To be creative means the ability to remain thirsty and to want more, never be content...you keep on seeing, discovering and understanding the joy of creativity"
Raghu Rai
So just remember, when I'm up to bat you need three things. 1) a large paypal deposit to my paypal account, 2) to get in all buddy buddy with me weeks prior (may as well start now), and 3) a cooling filter and some kittens.
If you don't have all 3 you may as well sit that competition out. Just saying.
* no comments in the main challenge thread - that thread is for entries only!
* in the spirit of good competition, please do not vote for your own photo
* let your creativity and imagination run wild. any and all photoshop etc :ps is allowed
* photos must be fresh, shot during the contest period. (exif available) - and put the date taken in your entry post.
* photos must be not longer than 800 pixels on their longest side, and not more than 150K in size
Anyway it's abit of a cheap trick. And wouldn't oyu feel like a looser if you won by 1 vote
Those who have be around awhile know what the judges are looking for: sort of like your mother entering a blueberry pie in the fair becasue she knows it is the judge's favorite flavor.
This is an interesting statement from someone with only 27 posts! It really doesn't matter if you've been around awhile. The moderators and judges are rotated for these challenges.
If being around here awhile really helped, I would have won a challenge by now!
This is an interesting statement from someone with only 27 posts! It really doesn't matter if you've been around awhile. The moderators and judges are rotated for these challenges.
If being around here awhile really helped, I would have won a challenge by now!
My turn????
Yeah!
Well, I have been around a while, and I have won a challenge........or two, well, more than my share........................and no way do I know what the judges want.
I look at my coffee cups in amazement. Why this photo, why that one?
As a co judge, I become befuddled very rapidly.
These photos are GOOD! I mean super good with a few exceptions! Those of us who have been around a while are better (except me, and I don't learn from advice, but that is another thread).............just looking at the photos scares me. We used to sweat and struggle, and those were the big names here.
Now, some name I don't know comes in and puts the most perfect photo up. They are good!
So, what do the judges want? I didn't know back at the beginning, and I don't know now. Some photographers are not good judges of their own work. But, pandering to the judges????
Well, Mike Lane, he has the right attitude should he become a judge. At least we would know what to do.
As it is..............just figure you will never win a challenge, play with the subject, talk to the future voters (as an exercise in networking), look at the pretty pictures and groan.
Well, it isn't easy on either side.
But one thing...............we are not the only forum running challenges. There are bigger forums and there are smaller ones. Why not enter some more, see if you still think this challenge is less fair. I don't.
(I hate contests.................) Oh, and have you entered Kodak's photo of the day? There are people here who have a gazillion while it took me years to get one: don't know what they want either.
But you could stay busy "learning" the challenge/contest business.
Disclaimer:
I will however clearly state that I appreciate all the effort, and work put in by the moderators.
Keep up the good work, and keep the challenges going!
Sam
I can see it now - Mods meeting in smoke filled backroom "Now who is going to get tapped for the coveted Dgrin challenge xx". Oh the prizes, the accolades the boost in sells your sure to reap as a winner and affirmed "Top Photographer". What... none of this happens. So what's the fuss.
It's all for fun. Everything is not a conspiracy. Even if it is - who cares.
Maybe if Doctorit wins he can use the winning photo for an avatar. That way we can get his finger out of his nose. I know who I'm voting for.
Greg "Tis better keep your mouth shut and be thought of as an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
I can see it now - Mods meeting in smoke filled backroom "Now who is going to get tapped for the coveted Dgrin challenge xx". Oh the prizes, the accolades the boost in sells your sure to reap as a winner and affirmed "Top Photographer". What... none of this happens. So what's the fuss.
It's all for fun. Everything is not a conspiracy. Even if it is - who cares.
we dont comment on what happens in the mod room...
and it may or may not involve rodeo clowns.
and gus covered in raspberry jelly playing a ukulele.
Comments
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I suppose we were past due for yet another round of whinging about the photo challenges.
What might save everyone some time, is if we had a list of all the previous threads on this topic, and no-one was allowed to post unless they were sure their exact same post hadn't been written before.
I'm still trying to figure out how a consistent bias can creep into the judging when each week, both judges are new!
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
If everyone who entered the contest were allowed one vote, how many of you would vote for your own shot?
Just curious, I've only been around a couple days and never entered a challenge.
Charla
As Andy said, the current forum software does not allow for more that 10 choices in one poll, rendering your - otherwise, I agree, very nice - idea impractical right off the bat..
You can treat this system as "reverse US elections". In US, people vote for the electoral college, and then they choose the President. Here electoral college prepares the candidates and we vote for those they have chosen.
Not perfect, I agree, but far better than what we used to have in USSR just 20 years ago: only one party, only one candidate, and if you don't vote "for" - you're in big trouble...
Life is great, just not perfect...:):
I've never voted for my own. Just not very sportsman like.
Moderator of: Location, Location, Location , Mind Your Own Business & Other Cool Shots
Welcome to DGrin. Be civil when you get here and don't expect to change the rules shortly after your arrival. Don't like the challenge rules which have evolved to their present state over the past few years? Don't enter the challenge. Most of all, be civil and considerate when discussing these things with the people here who volunteer their time.
Oh, Andy, go back to your vacation!
http://clearwaterphotography.smugmug.com/
Those who have be around awhile know what the judges are looking for: sort of like your mother entering a blueberry pie in the fair becasue she knows it is the judge's favorite flavor.
That would be kind of hard since the judges are constantly rotated. One judge is the winner of the prior challenge and the other is one of the mods who are rotated every 2-3 challenges.
http://behret.smugmug.com/ NANPA member
How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
i was surprised that the lightning pic was not chosen while 2 swimming/1surfing pic were chosen (the surfing pic didnt really pop) and a bottle with seltzer water was chosen.
but that is my subjective opinion.
as far as the smoke shots in question by the OP, i stated my also subjective opinion that the one chosen was superior.
but it seems from most of the contests i have seen so far, the best tend to get in, again, my opinion
Gear
*Canon 40D: 17-55IS - 70-300IS - 100mm Macro - Sigma 10-20EX
*Imagination
I will however clearly state that I appreciate all the effort, and work put in by the moderators.
Keep up the good work, and keep the challenges going!
Sam
When I'm a mod judge I pick the entries that deposit the most cash to my paypal account
So just remember, when I'm up to bat you need three things. 1) a large paypal deposit to my paypal account, 2) to get in all buddy buddy with me weeks prior (may as well start now), and 3) a cooling filter and some kittens.
If you don't have all 3 you may as well sit that competition out. Just saying.
http://photos.mikelanestudios.com/
Dang Mike would you lay off the strong-arm tactics!!! I told you I'd finish paying off by the end of July. I'll make the final installment to your account next week and not a moment too soon with the friggin' interest rates you're charging... LORDY!!!
Moderator of: Location, Location, Location , Mind Your Own Business & Other Cool Shots
http://photos.mikelanestudios.com/
Man and I never have made the finals either!!!
I can just tell you from my experience i used to think the same thing. But not making a challenge final doesnt mean your a bad photographer. Heck I think I take pretty darn good photos. But the challenge is just that, a challenge, be it a challenge to create an interesting image out of some simple concept, a challenge to shoot something different than you normally do, or maybe just simply a challenge to take your camera out one more day, to look through the lens in one more interesting way.
But I wouldnt say its clubby....
I am more throwing this all out cause at one point I was like "what the heck, that was a real darn good photo!!!" whats the deal. And I thought there was some sort of club dgrin conspiriacy (sounds like a great new book huh?) but its not, there are some people that give alot of time to this website, to challenge, to inspire and to help us become better photograhpers no matter what we are shooting. Be it your grandaughter to NCAA sports.
Just like any other photo contest you may enter its judged by humans, and as much as we try to not let it influence us we ALL have personal preferences.
just my 2cents......and taking in to account the time value of money (:) so excited about 10 more days and im done with my masters....woohooo, maybe then i can try this whole challenge thing myself again)
My main attraction to DGRIN: the stellar photo contest winners, at least that was the first thing that grabbed me.
My comment to the OP: I too felt that my entry was superior to some of the ones that made it. I'm very discouraged over it, although many of the entries (and some also not picked) I would have placed above my own.
Of the top contenders, most are the very last I would have picked. My pick would have been This entry, that also didn't make it.
Hey, photography judging is subjective and unfair, and that's especially true in the open market.
My preference would be to model it after POTN. A page of numbered thumbnails with slideshow capability and allowing a vote on more than just one (because that loosens the creative juices).
Then if you get a goose-egg you know you sucked in nearly everyone's eyes. If you win, it's pretty clear yours was the best and no chum of the regulars or general reputation was involved.
All that said; they are getting a lot of interest and a lot of activity on the voting threads. I ran the contest on another forum and it died a quick death due to such loose rules and this method makes for a tightly run contest. So I'd say, "live with it and don't take it so personally".
Jeez, this sounds like something I've read before..like a 57 times!
Enter the challenge if you like it.
Don't if you don't.
.
Now, to paraphrase "Read the thread if you like it, ..."
I have been on here for quite some time and I don't recall 57 discussions about it. If there were, that would be something.
As I stated earlier, the challenge is a good thing and the people that run it do a great job, but there is nothing wrong with looking at other ways to possibly improve on it. Sometimes you just have to look outside the box!
Joe
I joined DGrin in December & very quickly discovered the Challenges. I thought it was a great idea & gives me a theme & focus for my photography. It means I have something to look for when i go out to take pics, not just willy nilly shooting at things that are "pretty". I try & be as creative as possible, thinking outside the box. I think the critiques are great as they give me another perspective on my work, as sometimes you can become too "protective" of your own work & another persons view can improve your work imensely.
What I have found is that this always doesn't work with my photos for the challenge. Pics that I think are great don't get picked & others that people say are great don't get picked either. However, even if I'm disappointed I didn't get picked, there's always the next challenge to try for (one of my goals this year is to win a challenge
It would be a shame to lose the opportunity to take part in these challenges, just because of someone's sour grapes. I don't have time to sort through all the other galleries & hosting sites to find someone who does a similar thing. I like it here
Iconic Creative
http://iconiccreative.smugmug.com
"To be creative means the ability to remain thirsty and to want more, never be content...you keep on seeing, discovering and understanding the joy of creativity"
Raghu Rai
there are cheeriOs in my keyboard!!!
moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]
Anyway it's abit of a cheap trick. And wouldn't oyu feel like a looser if you won by 1 vote
Stan
Listen, if I'm the guest mod judge you just play by my rules and I'll make sure you win by more than 1 vote
http://photos.mikelanestudios.com/
This is an interesting statement from someone with only 27 posts! It really doesn't matter if you've been around awhile. The moderators and judges are rotated for these challenges.
If being around here awhile really helped, I would have won a challenge by now!
http://clearwaterphotography.smugmug.com/
My turn????
Yeah!
Well, I have been around a while, and I have won a challenge........or two, well, more than my share........................and no way do I know what the judges want.
I look at my coffee cups in amazement. Why this photo, why that one?
As a co judge, I become befuddled very rapidly.
These photos are GOOD! I mean super good with a few exceptions! Those of us who have been around a while are better (except me, and I don't learn from advice, but that is another thread).............just looking at the photos scares me. We used to sweat and struggle, and those were the big names here.
Now, some name I don't know comes in and puts the most perfect photo up. They are good!
So, what do the judges want? I didn't know back at the beginning, and I don't know now. Some photographers are not good judges of their own work. But, pandering to the judges????
Well, Mike Lane, he has the right attitude should he become a judge. At least we would know what to do.
As it is..............just figure you will never win a challenge, play with the subject, talk to the future voters (as an exercise in networking), look at the pretty pictures and groan.
Well, it isn't easy on either side.
But one thing...............we are not the only forum running challenges. There are bigger forums and there are smaller ones. Why not enter some more, see if you still think this challenge is less fair. I don't.
(I hate contests.................) Oh, and have you entered Kodak's photo of the day? There are people here who have a gazillion while it took me years to get one: don't know what they want either.
But you could stay busy "learning" the challenge/contest business.
g
I can see it now - Mods meeting in smoke filled backroom "Now who is going to get tapped for the coveted Dgrin challenge xx". Oh the prizes, the accolades the boost in sells your sure to reap as a winner and affirmed "Top Photographer". What... none of this happens. So what's the fuss.
It's all for fun. Everything is not a conspiracy. Even if it is - who cares.
Maybe if Doctorit wins he can use the winning photo for an avatar. That way we can get his finger out of his nose. I know who I'm voting for.
"Tis better keep your mouth shut and be thought of as an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
and it may or may not involve rodeo clowns.
and gus covered in raspberry jelly playing a ukulele.