Heh, that's exactly what I meant. There is no way to expect everyone to USE LR, only do what LR can do.
Essentially, what I mean by that is to be able to edit your photos as you would have 100 years ago in the darkroom with a single photo. A single photo with minimal edits (color correct, crop, remove spots).
It's nearly impossible to keep up with this thread and get work done.
Anyway, my comment on the above quote is that in a darkroom I have created composites (back in 1992, not 100 years ago though). So composites can be done whenever/wherever.
I don't necessarily agree with the fact that composites and studio shots *seem* to be the majority of top pics (I know i'll hear about this one because I haven't gone back and counted, just going off my lousy memory).
I do agree with the judges issue that is coming to be the big focus of this thread. The bad part about judges is that there is currently no way (that I know of ) to keep the judges throughout. They aren't paid or compensated, they do this stuff out of the enjoyment/etc. There's no contract to force them to be here for every round. I think keeping the same judges for the whole contest would be helpful and great - but how can the Dgrin folks do that without making them employees or some such? That seems like a tough challenge considering this is a year-long contest.
It has been stressful but fun for the rounds I was in though, I'd definately do it again.
I have to say I have learned a lot from the LPS judging system. On the downside it reguarly surprises me with its favorites and it often leaves really great photos on the cutting room floor. On the upside, it has forced me to let go after each round and focus on the next. As a result I am much bettern now at thinking about building a body of work rather than getting stuck on one or two "perfect" photos. It has also encouraged me to think about many different points of view which has broadend my own approach to the art and craft.
I have long since given up on thinking of LPS as a way to choose the best photograph and I not going to spend any time worrying about the fairness of it all. I look at LPS at a $25,000 carrot to explore, experiment and get better at my craft and in that it has been remarkably successful. Even without any prizes I have gotten my money's worth and I am immensely proud of the fact that I am still standing here at the end after 25 extremely challenging rounds.
I do agree with the judges issue that is coming to be the big focus of this thread. The bad part about judges is that there is currently no way (that I know of ) to keep the judges throughout. They aren't paid or compensated, they do this stuff out of the enjoyment/etc. There's no contract to force them to be here for every round. I think keeping the same judges for the whole contest would be helpful and great - but how can the Dgrin folks do that without making them employees or some such? That seems like a tough challenge considering this is a year-long contest.
This is a really good point but I suspect some type of quid pro quo could be easily worked out ... i.e. workshop promotion (a significant part of many successful big-name pros income in these days of declining stock revenues and oversaturated photo market), perks from sponsors of contest (and more sponsors should be solicited AND promoted), a little cash or ....
I mentioned a couple of these things in a previous post on this thread earlier this month ... and apparently these were all discussed or considered during the original formative stages of this contest (according to Erik's follow-up post). I know, as Erik mentioned, that this is a BIG, BIG ask but I really believe that with just a little more investment (beyond just prizes) this could become a legendary contest and that would not hurt either dgrin or smugmug one bit.
But again, as Urbanaries summed up, I think it would take consistent esteemed judges for LPS "to be considered a serious photo contest." So in my mind, that's the choice ... go for it, or don't ... although I'm not sure this contest could remain as vital, or meet the expectations associated with such a prize purse, without these changes. So maybe the choice is really either go all out to create an amazing contest folks would be proud to put on their resume or ....
While discussing the judging of LPS it would be helpful if you would review Shay's fine description from 11 months ago.
Harry http://behret.smugmug.com/NANPA member How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
While discussing the judging of LPS it would be helpful if you would review Shay's fine description from 11 months ago.
Thanks for the link, great read. He makes some very important and valid points in that article. Having different judges does make it more like "real life" in that the photographer will probably not usually have the same person to please on every project.
Thanks for that Harry, I was about to just wave the white flag, roll over, and give up.
I've had a little piece of paper next to me, and a few pages ago, I started keeping track of "the issues". My conclusion: judging, photoshop, we're divided on both points. Go back and read the last 3 pages, and think about it from our viewpoint. We're NEVER going to make you ALL happy. That's not pessimistic, its simply true. Just like opinions of photos differ, opinions of the contest will never be in agreement.
While discussing the judging of LPS it would be helpful if you would review Shay's fine description from 11 months ago.
Thanks Harry. I actually did go back and read this and other relevant posts again from early on before opening my mouth. I think the logic is quite sound, and I've been in the situation of "shooting for the client" but ... I still don't think it worked quite as intended, and that's okay if something was learned and this knowledge used to make improvements. Change can be good. )
(On an almost separate issue ... I have come to disagree with the premise of changing your style to suit the client, or the judge ... I believe that's artisitic suicide. I believe in developing your own style or vision and then working for people who are looking for that (who is going to call you anyway unless they like your work and style?) ... or developing and honing it to a high standard that would catch the eye of nearly any judge.)
I still stand by my premise of wanting to be judged by the best, by photographers whose work is generally accepted to be at the top of their field, or very close. I'm not striving for "good enough" or even "good" but hopefully someday something higher ... I may not make it there but that's the goal. Without being a jerk about it, as a photographer I would much more value the opinion of Marc Muench on my work than I would say, well, me, or someone like me who may be a wonderful person (really, I'm a nice guy ;-) and even a decent photographer but does not have either the wealth of experience, accolades, success, or tempered eye that a proven professional does.
I know I'm probably coming on a little strong here but that's only because I'm passionate about photography and I really believe this could be a legendary contest ... and I am trying to be constructive. If this contest raised its game and its profile, and attracted even better photographers, it would in turn raise everyone's game, challenge and teach in many ways, if people are open to it ... which is another requirement of getting better.
... And maybe because I quit my day job and don't have time to screw around ;-) .... which reminds me, I really should be working on that grant application ....
Thanks for that Harry, I was about to just wave the white flag, roll over, and give up.
I've had a little piece of paper next to me, and a few pages ago, I started keeping track of "the issues". My conclusion: judging, photoshop, we're divided on both points. Go back and read the last 3 pages, and think about it from our viewpoint. We're NEVER going to make you ALL happy. That's not pessimistic, its simply true. Just like opinions of photos differ, opinions of the contest will never be in agreement.
Erik, no need for a flag. This isn't a confrontation or a b-session but I think a constructive discussion. That's the intention )
And of course, you won't make everyone happy ... it's y'all's call and I appreciate this thread and an opportunity to share my opinion. Just an opinion ... but I think well argued ;-) Take what you will ...
(On an almost separate issue ... I have come to disagree with the premise of changing your style to suit the client, or the judge ... I believe that's artisitic suicide. I believe in developing your own style or vision and then working for people who are looking for that (who is going to call you anyway unless they like your work and style?) ... or developing and honing it to a high standard that would catch the eye of nearly any judge.)
I agree completely. The only photography contest I enter is the yearly one run by the St. Augustine Alligator Farm. In 2006 I "gamed" it and submitted 4 shots I thought the judges would like and had 3 out of the 4 chosen for their yearly calendar. In 2007 I said "screw it" and submitted 4 shots that I liked. None were choosen for their calendar but I was happier. Of course I'm retired and I don't need the money. :cavig
I still stand by my premise of wanting to be judged by the best, by photographers whose work is generally accepted to be at the top of their field, or very close.
Now all we have to do is find some photographers that we all agree are the "best". :lol4
I would want wildlife photographers, some would want landscape photographers, some would want portrait photographers, etc, etc, etc.
I have yet to find any photography contest which had judging that I liked. So far I'm partial to the way its been done in LPS - chaotic, unpredictable, no set guidelines, incomprehensible. Its kind of like real life.
Harry http://behret.smugmug.com/NANPA member How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
Thanks for that Harry, I was about to just wave the white flag, roll over, and give up.
I've had a little piece of paper next to me, and a few pages ago, I started keeping track of "the issues". My conclusion: judging, photoshop, we're divided on both points. Go back and read the last 3 pages, and think about it from our viewpoint. We're NEVER going to make you ALL happy. That's not pessimistic, its simply true. Just like opinions of photos differ, opinions of the contest will never be in agreement.
I am firmly in the camp that the person who fronts the prize money gets to set the rules. It is my job as an entrant to adjust to the rules rather than the other way around. I have one request. I would like the rules for what is a legal entry to be clear. As Shay pointed out in his posts, this competition is about innovating and pushing boundaries. For that to be possible we have to know where those bouandries are so we can innovate without fear of disqualification.
I am firmly in the camp that the person who fronts the prize money gets to set the rules. It is my job as an entrant to adjust to the rules rather than the other way around. I have one request. I would like the rules for what is a legal entry to be clear. As Shay pointed out in his posts, this competition is about innovating and pushing boundaries. For that to be possible we have to know where those bouandries are so we can innovate without fear of disqualification.
And as for me, I'm fine with any set of rules as long as they
1) are known in advance (e.g. who are the judges:-), and
2) don't change (e.g. we know that heavy PS or studio lighting is sniffed upon)
Again, I played before and will most likely play again regardless... But, as I said before, I stopped paying attention to official results a long time ago - which kinda defeats the purpose of having a "contest"...
Now all we have to do is find some photographers that we all agree are the "best". :lol4
I get you Harry. I should have qualified that with "in their respective fields" and provide judges from a diversity of fields ... artists in residence would be a good place to start ... and I could mention a number of smuggers who are well published, displayed and known. But I respect your opinion for enjoying the current chaotic real life simulation, lol )
I am firmly in the camp that the person who fronts the prize money gets to set the rules. It is my job as an entrant to adjust to the rules rather than the other way around.
And I agree. I'm not demanding a change to the rules, just offering my opinion and input which, I believe to Dgrin's credit, is welcome here. Correct? Since Andy and Erik have indicated there are some as yet undefined impending changes for LPS #2, I think this is the proper time for constructive input. When everything shakes out I'll either play by the established rules, or not. No expectations, no hard feelings. You are right, at that point it will be just what it is.
So, I've been thinking about this ("oh, jeez, not another post from HER") and trying to figure out.... Why is this so frustrating and confusing?
I think it ultimately boils down to WHY the contest was created in the first place.
According to Andy and Eric, it's to bring new users to DGrin. And I completely applaud that. But I think it needs to get more specific. What kind of users? What level?
If you want photographers that are professional or headed that way or just want to really push themselves, structure it for them.
If you want people who love pushing PS to the limits, structure it for them.
If you want amateurs looking to push themselves, structure it for them.
Keep the judging VERY consistant no matter what.
And if you want to attract several types of uses, then by all means hold different contests for each one. Even if they're held at different times and are much smaller so you can manage everything, that's fine. Maybe a grand finale in each one.... And the photo of the year for the contests chosen from there. I don't know....
But I think by structuring it the way it is, you confuse people....Should I enter? I'm not sure my photo is good enough!
Should I put in this photo that I've merged several images into? I dont' know if that's acceptable or frowned upon.
Should I be a complete purist? I don't know if that will be appreciated!
I have a lot more thoughts on it, but until DGrin knows WHO and WHAT LEVEL they want their contest to appeal to, I think they won't be able to figure out how to structure it!
You know, just my $0.02 that probably will be lost in the hundreds of dollars already spoken.
On the judging front, it is going to be very hard to keep the same judges the whole year. It might be possible to keep a pool of judges around from which a subset is used for each competition. I'm not sure how much this will "improve" things. And it could be quite a bit of overhead. I think the multiple qual rounds gives everyone adequate chance to get a "fair" judging. Perhaps the SF rounds could use a more standard set of judges while the quals go with the current system.
On the PS front. I don't like composites myself. That said, I see some really nicely executed ones from time to time and would hate to exclude them. From looking at the current round of voting I'd point out that the composites are actually not doing very well at all, most of the current top 10 are not composites. Based on that I don't see any particular reason to limit peoples choices for entering. Lots of PS and lots of compositing does not make a better photo. It allows you to create images you couldn't create other ways but they won't necessarily be any "better" or "worse" than what comes from a single exposure. Same goes for a "contrived" or "studio" shot, could be great or could fall flat, just like a candid or a landscape. I think trying to define what is allowed is a slippery slope best avoided. If you don't like 'em then don't vote for them! Oh, and volunteer to be a judge .
And to Erik and the rest of the planners, I think you've got to be pretty darn happy with how the first year turned out. I'd very much like to see a second year and I'm sure there are some things you can tweak. That said, the basic concept is great. Thanks!
So, I've been thinking about this ("oh, jeez, not another post from HER") and trying to figure out.... Why is this so frustrating and confusing?
....
Andi, this is all great, but unfortunately you seem to have forgotten the famous KISS principle. :saurora
Once you start on a slippery slope of multiple strata (user categories: n00b vs pro; type of treatments: ps vs lr vs bw vs nothing; type of gear: nikon vs dslr vs p&s, etc.) there is no stopping.
Thus far we all - I have yet to see an exception - seem to agree on one thing, and one thing only: we all want a consistent judging process.
In my past I've been in charge of very large sport events (thousands and thousands of people, huge variety of activities). It was a very live process, so each year rules changed, sometimes slightly, sometimes drastically. But during the event they did stay the same and they were all posted well in advance, so everyone was clear on what those rules are.
For each type of event the chief judges were well known experts in that area selected from the almost constant pool, and they educated their "volunteer" crew in place to provide cohesive judgement.
So please trust me when I say: if we manage to get a consistent judgement, everything else will fall in place.
It's not called LAST photographer (singular) for nothing. We've (well, not so much Shay anymore) said it many times - this was supposed to be a knockdown, drag out, reality show of a competition.
The above statement has stuck in my head and last night I realized to make this a true knockdown, drag out, reality show of a competition leaving one (the last) photographer standing, the finale should consist of multiple rounds, with new photos for each round, eliminating a certain percentage of entrants after each round, until we end up with the last photographer standing.
On the PS front. I don't like composites myself. That said, I see some really nicely executed ones from time to time and would hate to exclude them. From looking at the current round of voting I'd point out that the composites are actually not doing very well at all, most of the current top 10 are not composites.
About half of the top 10 are composites including the shot which is now in first place.
My personal interpretation of Shay's intent for this competition is to think of each image like you would a movie: don't worry about how it was done, just sit back and enjoy the show. I think it is fundamental to the nature of the "2 weeks to shoot a theme" format that most of the entries will be fictions rather than facts. As such, debating how that fiction was created seems a little pedantic.
Not really. You can't have consistent judging in an art form because all "judgements" are subjective and will vary from judge to judge. Hell we can't get consistent judgements in sports or even in our legal systems. How the hell are we going to get it in a photography contest?
It sounds like you want a method of judging that is predictable so you play up to it. That would stifle creativity as once we figured out what the "judge" liked we would try to produce shots to fit that mold.
Instead of worrying about how a contest is going to be judged I would instead channel all the effort into thinking about what kind of shot to produce. In the end any final judgement(s) will be subjective and unpredicatable, kind of like real life. Don't try to please some judge(s) or a bunch of voters. Get a shot that you like, one that you are proud of, one that grows your talent.
BTW, I abhor photography (LPS included) contests because they always end up discussing the method of judging instead of the photography.
Harry http://behret.smugmug.com/NANPA member How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
While I agree that professional level judges would be great, Harry has a point, I don't think you'll ever see an LPS that has the same judging panel time after time, for exactly that reason. Shay would totally agree.
Not at all Harry, what I would like is judging that understands the rules of the competition and consistently judges within those rules, not consistently chooses the same style of image.
If for the instance the rules were 'Horse photographer of the year - To be eligible your image must contain a photograph of a horse.'
Then someone enters a picture of an elephant, wins and we get endless nonsense about interpretation and 'thinking outside the box.'
If Nikolai was advocating judging that was consistently predictable, which I don't think he was, then no I don't agree.
While I agree that professional level judges would be great, Harry has a point, I don't think you'll ever see an LPS that has the same judging panel time after time, for exactly that reason. Shay would totally agree.
I agree, I think it would be a logistical nightmare for those that might be involved, especially as entrants have understandably shown a keen desire for feedback. Having judged one round and provided feedback, it's apparent that doing this every two weeks would be a huge commitment for anyone, so all the more Kudos to Shay for having done so much.
Why do you think Shay has gone into witness protection and I'm wearing these giant sunglasses?
Awww...was it really us that drove poor Shay over the edge? Of course, my two kids whining and complaining can drive me nuts sometimes, so I can only imagine what 100 or so would do. Guess that's what happens when you try to be so patient and nice to so many...
Hey...and I only complain about the judging in the rounds where I'm not in the top ten
I appreciate the judging and the feedback from all sources. Yes, it would be fantastic to have a bunch of pros judge and give feedback, but I assume those are the ones that are out there too busy making a living at it to commit that kind of time. Perhaps the contestants would be willing to reduce the grand prize money in order to pay for professionals to give feedback and judge??? I'm honestly just happy to be a part of something that makes me think, stretch and grow...and take photos I would never have dreamt of otherwise. Not to mention there's the possibities of prizes to boot. In fact, it's the unpredicatable judging that makes it so much of a drama. It's like being stuck to a soap opera or reality show...not able to turn it off and get on with real life even when you know you should. How dull would it be if you could say at every round as the entries came in, "Oh yeah, that one and that one and that one are DEFINITELY getting through." It's fun to me to be so surprised (and VERY disappointing quite often) to see what does get through, and to know that ANYONE has a chance in this competition.
Comments
It's nearly impossible to keep up with this thread and get work done.
Anyway, my comment on the above quote is that in a darkroom I have created composites (back in 1992, not 100 years ago though). So composites can be done whenever/wherever.
I don't necessarily agree with the fact that composites and studio shots *seem* to be the majority of top pics (I know i'll hear about this one because I haven't gone back and counted, just going off my lousy memory).
I do agree with the judges issue that is coming to be the big focus of this thread. The bad part about judges is that there is currently no way (that I know of ) to keep the judges throughout. They aren't paid or compensated, they do this stuff out of the enjoyment/etc. There's no contract to force them to be here for every round. I think keeping the same judges for the whole contest would be helpful and great - but how can the Dgrin folks do that without making them employees or some such? That seems like a tough challenge considering this is a year-long contest.
It has been stressful but fun for the rounds I was in though, I'd definately do it again.
WoW Tessa's FOXY
pyroPrints.com/5819572 The Photo Section
I have long since given up on thinking of LPS as a way to choose the best photograph and I not going to spend any time worrying about the fairness of it all. I look at LPS at a $25,000 carrot to explore, experiment and get better at my craft and in that it has been remarkably successful. Even without any prizes I have gotten my money's worth and I am immensely proud of the fact that I am still standing here at the end after 25 extremely challenging rounds.
This is a really good point but I suspect some type of quid pro quo could be easily worked out ... i.e. workshop promotion (a significant part of many successful big-name pros income in these days of declining stock revenues and oversaturated photo market), perks from sponsors of contest (and more sponsors should be solicited AND promoted), a little cash or ....
I mentioned a couple of these things in a previous post on this thread earlier this month ... and apparently these were all discussed or considered during the original formative stages of this contest (according to Erik's follow-up post). I know, as Erik mentioned, that this is a BIG, BIG ask but I really believe that with just a little more investment (beyond just prizes) this could become a legendary contest and that would not hurt either dgrin or smugmug one bit.
But again, as Urbanaries summed up, I think it would take consistent esteemed judges for LPS "to be considered a serious photo contest." So in my mind, that's the choice ... go for it, or don't ... although I'm not sure this contest could remain as vital, or meet the expectations associated with such a prize purse, without these changes. So maybe the choice is really either go all out to create an amazing contest folks would be proud to put on their resume or ....
http://behret.smugmug.com/ NANPA member
How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
Thanks for the link, great read. He makes some very important and valid points in that article. Having different judges does make it more like "real life" in that the photographer will probably not usually have the same person to please on every project.
Charlie
I've had a little piece of paper next to me, and a few pages ago, I started keeping track of "the issues". My conclusion: judging, photoshop, we're divided on both points. Go back and read the last 3 pages, and think about it from our viewpoint. We're NEVER going to make you ALL happy. That's not pessimistic, its simply true. Just like opinions of photos differ, opinions of the contest will never be in agreement.
moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]
(On an almost separate issue ... I have come to disagree with the premise of changing your style to suit the client, or the judge ... I believe that's artisitic suicide. I believe in developing your own style or vision and then working for people who are looking for that (who is going to call you anyway unless they like your work and style?) ... or developing and honing it to a high standard that would catch the eye of nearly any judge.)
I still stand by my premise of wanting to be judged by the best, by photographers whose work is generally accepted to be at the top of their field, or very close. I'm not striving for "good enough" or even "good" but hopefully someday something higher ... I may not make it there but that's the goal. Without being a jerk about it, as a photographer I would much more value the opinion of Marc Muench on my work than I would say, well, me, or someone like me who may be a wonderful person (really, I'm a nice guy ;-) and even a decent photographer but does not have either the wealth of experience, accolades, success, or tempered eye that a proven professional does.
I know I'm probably coming on a little strong here but that's only because I'm passionate about photography and I really believe this could be a legendary contest ... and I am trying to be constructive. If this contest raised its game and its profile, and attracted even better photographers, it would in turn raise everyone's game, challenge and teach in many ways, if people are open to it ... which is another requirement of getting better.
... And maybe because I quit my day job and don't have time to screw around ;-) .... which reminds me, I really should be working on that grant application ....
Erik, no need for a flag. This isn't a confrontation or a b-session but I think a constructive discussion. That's the intention
And of course, you won't make everyone happy ... it's y'all's call and I appreciate this thread and an opportunity to share my opinion. Just an opinion ... but I think well argued ;-) Take what you will ...
I agree completely. The only photography contest I enter is the yearly one run by the St. Augustine Alligator Farm. In 2006 I "gamed" it and submitted 4 shots I thought the judges would like and had 3 out of the 4 chosen for their yearly calendar. In 2007 I said "screw it" and submitted 4 shots that I liked. None were choosen for their calendar but I was happier. Of course I'm retired and I don't need the money. :cavig
Now all we have to do is find some photographers that we all agree are the "best". :lol4
I would want wildlife photographers, some would want landscape photographers, some would want portrait photographers, etc, etc, etc.
I have yet to find any photography contest which had judging that I liked. So far I'm partial to the way its been done in LPS - chaotic, unpredictable, no set guidelines, incomprehensible. Its kind of like real life.
http://behret.smugmug.com/ NANPA member
How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
I am firmly in the camp that the person who fronts the prize money gets to set the rules. It is my job as an entrant to adjust to the rules rather than the other way around. I have one request. I would like the rules for what is a legal entry to be clear. As Shay pointed out in his posts, this competition is about innovating and pushing boundaries. For that to be possible we have to know where those bouandries are so we can innovate without fear of disqualification.
And as for me, I'm fine with any set of rules as long as they
1) are known in advance (e.g. who are the judges:-), and
2) don't change (e.g. we know that heavy PS or studio lighting is sniffed upon)
Again, I played before and will most likely play again regardless... But, as I said before, I stopped paying attention to official results a long time ago - which kinda defeats the purpose of having a "contest"...
eg - Could any part of any submitted image be a rendered 3D model / object ... and if so, what proportion etc of the total?
pp
Flickr
I get you Harry. I should have qualified that with "in their respective fields" and provide judges from a diversity of fields ... artists in residence would be a good place to start ... and I could mention a number of smuggers who are well published, displayed and known. But I respect your opinion for enjoying the current chaotic real life simulation, lol
And I agree. I'm not demanding a change to the rules, just offering my opinion and input which, I believe to Dgrin's credit, is welcome here. Correct? Since Andy and Erik have indicated there are some as yet undefined impending changes for LPS #2, I think this is the proper time for constructive input. When everything shakes out I'll either play by the established rules, or not. No expectations, no hard feelings. You are right, at that point it will be just what it is.
I think it ultimately boils down to WHY the contest was created in the first place.
According to Andy and Eric, it's to bring new users to DGrin. And I completely applaud that. But I think it needs to get more specific. What kind of users? What level?
If you want photographers that are professional or headed that way or just want to really push themselves, structure it for them.
If you want people who love pushing PS to the limits, structure it for them.
If you want amateurs looking to push themselves, structure it for them.
Keep the judging VERY consistant no matter what.
And if you want to attract several types of uses, then by all means hold different contests for each one. Even if they're held at different times and are much smaller so you can manage everything, that's fine. Maybe a grand finale in each one.... And the photo of the year for the contests chosen from there. I don't know....
But I think by structuring it the way it is, you confuse people....Should I enter? I'm not sure my photo is good enough!
Should I put in this photo that I've merged several images into? I dont' know if that's acceptable or frowned upon.
Should I be a complete purist? I don't know if that will be appreciated!
I have a lot more thoughts on it, but until DGrin knows WHO and WHAT LEVEL they want their contest to appeal to, I think they won't be able to figure out how to structure it!
www.tippiepics.com
On the judging front, it is going to be very hard to keep the same judges the whole year. It might be possible to keep a pool of judges around from which a subset is used for each competition. I'm not sure how much this will "improve" things. And it could be quite a bit of overhead. I think the multiple qual rounds gives everyone adequate chance to get a "fair" judging. Perhaps the SF rounds could use a more standard set of judges while the quals go with the current system.
On the PS front. I don't like composites myself. That said, I see some really nicely executed ones from time to time and would hate to exclude them. From looking at the current round of voting I'd point out that the composites are actually not doing very well at all, most of the current top 10 are not composites. Based on that I don't see any particular reason to limit peoples choices for entering. Lots of PS and lots of compositing does not make a better photo. It allows you to create images you couldn't create other ways but they won't necessarily be any "better" or "worse" than what comes from a single exposure. Same goes for a "contrived" or "studio" shot, could be great or could fall flat, just like a candid or a landscape. I think trying to define what is allowed is a slippery slope best avoided. If you don't like 'em then don't vote for them! Oh, and volunteer to be a judge
And to Erik and the rest of the planners, I think you've got to be pretty darn happy with how the first year turned out. I'd very much like to see a second year and I'm sure there are some things you can tweak. That said, the basic concept is great. Thanks!
Ken
Andi, this is all great, but unfortunately you seem to have forgotten the famous KISS principle. :saurora
Once you start on a slippery slope of multiple strata (user categories: n00b vs pro; type of treatments: ps vs lr vs bw vs nothing; type of gear: nikon vs dslr vs p&s, etc.) there is no stopping.
Thus far we all - I have yet to see an exception - seem to agree on one thing, and one thing only: we all want a consistent judging process.
In my past I've been in charge of very large sport events (thousands and thousands of people, huge variety of activities). It was a very live process, so each year rules changed, sometimes slightly, sometimes drastically. But during the event they did stay the same and they were all posted well in advance, so everyone was clear on what those rules are.
For each type of event the chief judges were well known experts in that area selected from the almost constant pool, and they educated their "volunteer" crew in place to provide cohesive judgement.
So please trust me when I say: if we manage to get a consistent judgement, everything else will fall in place.
The above statement has stuck in my head and last night I realized to make this a true knockdown, drag out, reality show of a competition leaving one (the last) photographer standing, the finale should consist of multiple rounds, with new photos for each round, eliminating a certain percentage of entrants after each round, until we end up with the last photographer standing.
About half of the top 10 are composites including the shot which is now in first place.
My personal interpretation of Shay's intent for this competition is to think of each image like you would a movie: don't worry about how it was done, just sit back and enjoy the show. I think it is fundamental to the nature of the "2 weeks to shoot a theme" format that most of the entries will be fictions rather than facts. As such, debating how that fiction was created seems a little pedantic.
:lurk
Back to your regularly scheduled discussion. Whose turn is it now?
www.tippiepics.com
That makes a lot of sense
Charlie
Not really. You can't have consistent judging in an art form because all "judgements" are subjective and will vary from judge to judge. Hell we can't get consistent judgements in sports or even in our legal systems. How the hell are we going to get it in a photography contest?
It sounds like you want a method of judging that is predictable so you play up to it. That would stifle creativity as once we figured out what the "judge" liked we would try to produce shots to fit that mold.
Instead of worrying about how a contest is going to be judged I would instead channel all the effort into thinking about what kind of shot to produce. In the end any final judgement(s) will be subjective and unpredicatable, kind of like real life. Don't try to please some judge(s) or a bunch of voters. Get a shot that you like, one that you are proud of, one that grows your talent.
BTW, I abhor photography (LPS included) contests because they always end up discussing the method of judging instead of the photography.
http://behret.smugmug.com/ NANPA member
How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
While I agree that professional level judges would be great, Harry has a point, I don't think you'll ever see an LPS that has the same judging panel time after time, for exactly that reason. Shay would totally agree.
moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]
If for the instance the rules were 'Horse photographer of the year - To be eligible your image must contain a photograph of a horse.'
Then someone enters a picture of an elephant, wins and we get endless nonsense about interpretation and 'thinking outside the box.'
If Nikolai was advocating judging that was consistently predictable, which I don't think he was, then no I don't agree.
Charlie
I agree, I think it would be a logistical nightmare for those that might be involved, especially as entrants have understandably shown a keen desire for feedback. Having judged one round and provided feedback, it's apparent that doing this every two weeks would be a huge commitment for anyone, so all the more Kudos to Shay for having done so much.
Charlie
moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]
Awww...was it really us that drove poor Shay over the edge? Of course, my two kids whining and complaining can drive me nuts sometimes, so I can only imagine what 100 or so would do. Guess that's what happens when you try to be so patient and nice to so many...
Hey...and I only complain about the judging in the rounds where I'm not in the top ten
I appreciate the judging and the feedback from all sources. Yes, it would be fantastic to have a bunch of pros judge and give feedback, but I assume those are the ones that are out there too busy making a living at it to commit that kind of time. Perhaps the contestants would be willing to reduce the grand prize money in order to pay for professionals to give feedback and judge??? I'm honestly just happy to be a part of something that makes me think, stretch and grow...and take photos I would never have dreamt of otherwise. Not to mention there's the possibities of prizes to boot. In fact, it's the unpredicatable judging that makes it so much of a drama. It's like being stuck to a soap opera or reality show...not able to turn it off and get on with real life even when you know you should. How dull would it be if you could say at every round as the entries came in, "Oh yeah, that one and that one and that one are DEFINITELY getting through." It's fun to me to be so surprised (and VERY disappointing quite often) to see what does get through, and to know that ANYONE has a chance in this competition.
Charlie