Smugmug a Rip Off?

photosthatgive · November 22, 2010

Since turning my SmugMug site live in the last week of August '10 I've sold a little over $1200 worth of prints, mostly small sizes in either loose, luster prints, or moderately sized MetalPrints. And I'm pretty happy with those results. However, my profits have been surprisingly low. And honestly, I'm starting to feel like SmugMug is a bit of a rip off for the semi-professional photographer.

First of all, it's difficult to sell modern art photography online, sight unseen to the buyer. And I understand that, which is why I have to keep my prices competitive. I'm not doing hired jobs and then posting the shots and making them available to my clients. That's not the kind of work I do - and all things considered I'm happy with the sales I've made. I'm working off word-of-mouth traffic to my website, and small features in e-newsletters such as Daily Candy.

However, I'm just not sure if it's worth it. $150 to Smugmug to enable me to sell photos (for a Pro Account). And then they get 15% of the mark-up on each sale? For what? Where did my $150 go? What's that used for? If I sell a $70 print after all is said and done I'm only walking away with about $16. And I'm not even going to get into Bay Photo's shipping costs which are, in a word, astronomical. I mean, simply insane. At least 4x higher through SmugMug than if you ordered directly from Bay Photo.

What I'm trying to say is, we're set up for failure through SmugMug. It's hard enough selling photography online, so we're forced to keep our prices low to make it possible. We pay SM $150 + 15% of each sale, while trying to convince our buyers to pay nearly $20 for shipping on a not-so-large 12x18 print. 5% I could understand, but 15%?

I know SmugMug has great customer service, but I wonder how other people are doing in sales, and if anyone is questioning SM the same way I am. Thanks for listening.

mercphoto · November 22, 2010

While I would agree that a 15% commission is too high, at least part of your profit problem is going to be your prices, correct? And the price you set is out of SM's control. For example, are you positive that if you raised your prices that you would not get a higher total return?

gecko0 · November 22, 2010

I primarily use SM as a gallery and unlimited host for my photos...not much on sales.

$150 to Smugmug to enable me to sell photos (for a Pro Account). And then they get 15% of the mark-up on each sale? For what?

The $150 gives you a pre-designed (customizable) website, unlimited storage, unlimited bandwidth, preconfigured credit card payment options/eCommerce, and endless other items. Imagine creating that yourself or paying someone to design a site from scratch for you, then also paying for that site to be hosted. Now, find a host that will store all of your data...unlimited...with unlimited bandwidth per month.

I'm not saying SM is the perfect option for everyone, but in general, it seems to provide quite a bit for $150/yr. The commission charges are another topic, but since that is all known prior to purchasing the service, it should have come as no surprise.

.02

photosthatgive · November 22, 2010

mercphoto wrote: »

While I would agree that a 15% commission is too high, at least part of your profit problem is going to be your prices, correct? And the price you set is out of SM's control. For example, are you positive that if you raised your prices that you would not get a higher total return?

Hey thanks for responding. I'm not sure if raising my prices would hurt or help me, but I know I want to keep my photography affordable. I'd rather have 100 inexpensive prints sell than 5 expensive ones. I want it to be widely available. I think my prices are fair, without being too low. What do you think? The Bay Photo costs for MetalPrints are extremely high and there's only so much I'd feel comfortable charging for them.

WaterfallRich · November 22, 2010

For me, it's been a good deal. Selling prints and licensing images is a part time business for me. I also work a full time swing shift job and when I'm off, I'd rather be out hiking and taking pictures. It's well worth $150 a year to me to have all the server space I need to load photos, a dependable 3rd party to process and ship my prints and credit card payments, 24hr customer service for my clients if they need help when I'm not in, customizable galleries with plenty of help from the forums, etc.

Is the $150 fee plus the 15% take on orders plus the extra shipping costs too much? I don't know because I don't know what their expenses are. Before I offer a print for sale, I get a 10x15 test print done for myself to check quality. I order these directly from Bay Photo because I can get them cheaper. I just ordered 9 10x15 lustre prints, no color correction, and 2 day UPS (for $1.50) and my total bill was $36.15. I have also had to order other products for myself or for customers directly from Bay because SM doesn't offer that option yet - like satin metal prints which I prefer over the high gloss and different options for thin wraps - but when you add in to total cost like extra for the float mount and rounded corners and the $6 fee for having it drop shipped to the customer, Bay's price is close to what SM charges.

Everything considered, I've been happy with my choice to use Smug.

mercphoto · November 22, 2010

photosthatgive wrote: »

Hey thanks for responding. I'm not sure if raising my prices would hurt or help me, but I know I want to keep my photography affordable. I'd rather have 100 inexpensive prints sell than 5 expensive ones. I want it to be widely available. I think my prices are fair, without being too low. What do you think? The Bay Photo costs for MetalPrints are extremely high and there's only so much I'd feel comfortable charging for them.

Metal Prints are expensive to have made. They will be expensive for a person to buy. There is no way around that. Make the client know that and why. Stress that it is ready to hang (no need to buy a frame). Stress that it is more archival than paper.

In short, I'd charge more for metal prints for sure. Its worth it. If I can sell metal prints to amatuer track day racers, a crowd that typically won't pay more than $60-70 for a CD full of pictures, then you can sell to your crowd too.

By the way, what sizes of metal prints are you offering, and how much are you charging for them?

photosthatgive · November 22, 2010

mercphoto wrote: »

Metal Prints are expensive to have made. They will be expensive for a person to buy. There is no way around that. Make the client know that and why. Stress that it is ready to hang (no need to buy a frame). Stress that it is more archival than paper.

In short, I'd charge more for metal prints for sure. Its worth it. If I can sell metal prints to amatuer track day racers, a crowd that typically won't pay more than $60-70 for a CD full of pictures, then you can sell to your crowd too.

By the way, what sizes of metal prints are you offering, and how much are you charging for them?

Yeah, I mean, maybe we just have to charge more for metal. We're offering a wide variety of sizes. Off the top of my head, we're selling the 8x12 for $60 and it costs us about $33 (before SmugMug cut), the 12x18 for $100 and it costs us about $60, and the 16x24 for $190 and it costs us about $130. I think those prices are pretty low. We make just about as much selling an 8x10 print for $20...

mercphoto · November 22, 2010

Your cost for an 8x12 is $33 and that is before the 15% commission? And $130 for the 16x24 and that is before the 15% commission?

photosthatgive · November 22, 2010

mercphoto wrote: »

Your cost for an 8x12 is $33 and that is before the 15% commission? And $130 for the 16x24 and that is before the 15% commission?

yes...

mercphoto · November 22, 2010

Hmm.... a Bay Photo 16x24 metal print is $85. Maybe you add in a float mount and rounded corners. Now we're at $94.50. And Smugmug charges you $130 plus an additional 15%? SM is making a higher profit over this sale than you are.

photosthatgive · November 22, 2010

mercphoto wrote: »

Hmm.... a Bay Photo 16x24 metal print is $85. Maybe you add in a float mount and rounded corners. Now we're at $94.50. And Smugmug charges you $130 plus an additional 15%? SM is making a higher profit over this sale than you are.

Andy, where are you? Please justify your astronomical prices. And don't tell me Bay Photo sets the costs, because we all know that's not true.

denisegoldberg · November 22, 2010

photosthatgive wrote: »

Yeah, I mean, maybe we just have to charge more for metal. We're offering a wide variety of sizes. Off the top of my head, we're selling the 8x12 for $60 and it costs us about $33 (before SmugMug cut), the 12x18 for $100 and it costs us about $60, and the 16x24 for $190 and it costs us about $130. I think those prices are pretty low. We make just about as much selling an 8x10 print for $20...

Just out of curiosity, I compared prices for a 16x24 metal print.

On the Bay photo site, $85, plus float mount and rounded corners, $94.50 total.

When I looked at the smug (base) price on my site for a 16x24 metal print it shows as $99.51. That's just $5 over the Bay Photo price. Yes, we are paying 15% to smug - but that's not a surprise, is it? That was an up front understanding with signing up for a pro site.

--- Denise

mercphoto · November 22, 2010

denisegoldberg wrote: »

When I looked at the smug (base) price on my site for a 16x24 metal print it shows as $99.51. That's just $5 over the Bay Photo price. Yes, we are paying 15% to smug - but that's not a surprise, is it? That was an up front understanding with signing up for a pro site.

Now I'm wondering why the OP said his cost was $130 and not $99.51?

Andy · November 22, 2010

photosthatgive wrote: »

Andy, where are you? Please justify your astronomical prices. And don't tell me Bay Photo sets the costs, because we all know that's not true.

Hi Guys, please get the facts right, mkay?

Bay Prices:
16x24 MetalPrint: $85
Float Mount Blocks: $7.50
Corner Treatment: $2.00

$94.50, non-color corrected at Bay Photo, which is the exact price as SmugMug.

http://bayphoto.com/metalprints/metalprints_single.htm
http://www.smugmug.com/prints/catalog/ABP

If there are other discrepancies on product prices, bring them to my attention, thanks!

Andy · November 22, 2010

denisegoldberg wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, I compared prices for a 16x24 metal print.

On the Bay photo site, $85, plus float mount and rounded corners, $94.50 total.

When I looked at the smug (base) price on my site for a 16x24 metal print it shows as $99.51. That's just $5 over the Bay Photo price.

You gotta compare apples to apples, in this cae, the price of $99.51 on SmugMug includes hand color correction. It's $94.50 with no hand color correction.

Thanks.

Andy · November 22, 2010

mercphoto wrote: »

SM is making a higher profit over this sale than you are.

Untrue, please see my posts above, thank you.

denisegoldberg · November 22, 2010

Andy wrote: »

You gotta compare apples to apples, in this cae, the price of $99.51 on SmugMug includes hand color correction. It's $94.50 with no hand color correction.

Sorry, that slipped my mind. Thanks for pointing out what the extra cost relates to.

But I was not supporting the OP in this - I was trying to point out that there wasn't a $130 price on that item and the 15% charge is something that is made clear when signing up for a pro account.

--- Denise

mercphoto · November 22, 2010

Andy wrote: »

Untrue, please see my posts above, thank you.

Hey, I'm only going on the prices I was told

drode · November 22, 2010

The math on this stuff is pretty easy...

Here's how I look at it.

I pay $150/year for Smugmug to provide all the Pro level photo-site stuff, so it costs me $12.50/per month to not have to run my own site plus all the goodies I couldn't (easily) do myself. Then, they get 15% of the profit on each sale to manage the vendors, process cards, basic customer service for my clients, etc.

As a semi-pro with a day job, I need to concentrate om marketing, sales and taking photos. Even if I wanted to do all that myself, I don't have the time.

Albert Dickson · November 22, 2010

I consider SmugMug to be a bargain. It is like having having my own staff of 20 people to build and manage a web presence, negotiate with print houses, take and process orders, handle credit cards, handle shipping, and on and on. I could not ever afford this sort of support for my business any other way. I priced local web designers here in the northwest, $6,000.00 to design and build plus monthly hosting fees and change fees. This is not even possible for a part timer like me.

The printing costs from Bay Photo have actually let me lower my prices to my clients. This is because here in Boise there were too few options for pro grade printing and prices are quite high. I lowered my prices and maintained the same profit per print. I believe in the long run this will actually increase my bottom line due to improved sale quantities.

This being said, I do agree that the shipping rates from B.P. via S.M. are high. I know that I can get better rates from B.P. direct and will take advantage of this on some orders. It is just nice to know that my store is always open 24/7 at Smugmug and that orders placed there by clients will be handled with little effort on my part and the money is in the bank. Case in point, I recieved an order this week from the other side of the country that was placed at 03:20am. By the time I was aware of the order, B.P. had it handled and it was shipped that day. Happy client, effortless for me, profit made. I don't know how else I could achieve this for only 15%. Just my 2 cents worth.

jchin · November 22, 2010

drode wrote: »

The math on this stuff is pretty easy...

Here's how I look at it.

I pay $150/year for Smugmug to provide all the Pro level photo-site stuff, so it costs me $12.50/per month to not have to run my own site plus all the goodies I couldn't (easily) do myself. Then, they get 15% of the profit on each sale to manage the vendors, process cards, basic customer service for my clients, etc.

As a semi-pro with a day job, I need to concentrate om marketing, sales and taking photos. Even if I wanted to do all that myself, I don't have the time.

Could not have said it better myself!

One addition, maintaining your own credit card processing (unless you use PayPal) costs a monthly fee of about $16, so just looking at it that way, SmugMug is a good deal.

Personally, the 15% is a tad steep (10%-12% would be better

), but hey SmugMug is in business to make money; otherwise we won't have such a wonderful service to use. And I definitely don't want them to go out of business.

nipprdog · November 22, 2010

photosthatgive wrote: »

Since turning my SmugMug site live in the last week of August '10 I've sold a little over $1200 worth of prints, mostly small sizes in either loose, luster prints, or moderately sized MetalPrints. And I'm pretty happy with those results. However, my profits have been surprisingly low. And honestly, I'm starting to feel like SmugMug is a bit of a rip off for the semi-professional photographer.

First of all, it's difficult to sell modern art photography online, sight unseen to the buyer. And I understand that, which is why I have to keep my prices competitive. I'm not doing hired jobs and then posting the shots and making them available to my clients. That's not the kind of work I do - and all things considered I'm happy with the sales I've made. I'm working off word-of-mouth traffic to my website, and small features in e-newsletters such as Daily Candy.

However, I'm just not sure if it's worth it. $150 to Smugmug to enable me to sell photos (for a Pro Account). And then they get 15% of the mark-up on each sale? For what? Where did my $150 go? What's that used for? If I sell a $70 print after all is said and done I'm only walking away with about $16. And I'm not even going to get into Bay Photo's shipping costs which are, in a word, astronomical. I mean, simply insane. At least 4x higher through SmugMug than if you ordered directly from Bay Photo.

What I'm trying to say is, we're set up for failure through SmugMug. It's hard enough selling photography online, so we're forced to keep our prices low to make it possible. We pay SM $150 + 15% of each sale, while trying to convince our buyers to pay nearly $20 for shipping on a not-so-large 12x18 print. 5% I could understand, but 15%?

I know SmugMug has great customer service, but I wonder how other people are doing in sales, and if anyone is questioning SM the same way I am. Thanks for listening.

Possibly, the most ridiculous post, in Dgrin history.

drode wrote: »

The math on this stuff is pretty easy...

Here's how I look at it.

I pay $150/year for Smugmug to provide all the Pro level photo-site stuff, so it costs me $12.50/per month to not have to run my own site plus all the goodies I couldn't (easily) do myself. Then, they get 15% of the profit on each sale to manage the vendors, process cards, basic customer service for my clients, etc.

As a semi-pro with a day job, I need to concentrate on marketing, sales and taking photos. Even if I wanted to do all that myself, I don't have the time.

Albert Dickson · November 22, 2010

jchin wrote: »

otherwise we won't have such a wonderful service to use. And I definitely don't want them to go out of business.

Amen to that Brother!

TxTortoise · November 23, 2010

Someone needs to read John's book quick...

http://www.amazon.com/Best-Business-Practices-Photographers-Harrington/dp/1435454294/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1290490309&sr=1-2

As has been discussed over and over on here, if you want to run a business, run it like one. Either your business model supports what SmugMug offers or it doesn't. For example, I really like PhotoShelter and they do some things really well that SmugMug doesn't, but try and store a few GBs of hi-res files there and look at your fixed cost hit. They each have different business models and I have to model my usage accordingly, but I don't blame them for their respective successful models.

Personally, it reads like the original poster is trying to run a high-volume, low mark-up business...but doesn't have the volume to make it work. I also cringe at a 3x markup beyond 4x6 prints, but you're not selling paper, you're selling your work product...or trying to in this wonderful market.

And yeah...I'd love 10-12% commission also, but my biggest fear is SmugMug will do an IPO and and all this great service will go south. ;-)

photosthatgive · November 23, 2010

Hey all, thanks for the feedback. Good to get the opinions of other photographers who have been in the game longer, and some reassurance that SM is the best option for me.

SteveM · November 25, 2010

photosthatgive wrote: »

Hey all, thanks for the feedback. Good to get the opinions of other photographers who have been in the game longer, and some reassurance that SM is the best option for me.

One ginormous aspect that's so far been overlooked... I'll attest to this from personal experience as a working pro.

Before I made full use of SmugMug's incredible labs, I used another lab. Let's give them a hypothetical name like, Oval Office Color House. This particular lab uses ROES for ordering, and offers die-cut wallets. Having done a pretty large school shoot, I had a lot of packages to create with die-cut wallets as part of the packages I offered.

Even though I followed ROES' 'safe-zone' areas, I ended up with most/all of my die-cut wallets trimming into my subjects, amputating limbs. I called Oval Office Color House customer care, who simply told me I'd have to reorder and allow more room, on my dime, even though ROES said I was 'safe'.

At SmugMug, you're always covered by the SmugMug guarantee. http://www.smugmug.com/prints/our-guarantee.mg Whether you, your client, the lab, SmugMug, the post office or shipper ruins an order, it's all covered. Buyer remorse is even covered (e.g., the colors don't match my dining room. I don't want it.)

You may find other services that offer 10 or 12% commission, but I've never seen a guarantee like SmugMug's anywhere. One $200 canvas out of your own pocket, or in my case, 50 wallet sheets is well worth paying a couple extra percentage points in commission. One large order being mashed by the USPS is more than you'll pay SmugMug in a year in 'extra' commission.

Executive Images Photo · November 28, 2010

SteveM wrote: »

One ginormous aspect that's so far been overlooked... I'll attest to this from personal experience as a working pro.

Before I made full use of SmugMug's incredible labs, I used another lab. Let's give them a hypothetical name like, Oval Office Color House. This particular lab uses ROES for ordering, and offers die-cut wallets. Having done a pretty large school shoot, I had a lot of packages to create with die-cut wallets as part of the packages I offered.

Even though I followed ROES' 'safe-zone' areas, I ended up with most/all of my die-cut wallets trimming into my subjects, amputating limbs. I called Oval Office Color House customer care, who simply told me I'd have to reorder and allow more room, on my dime, even though ROES said I was 'safe'.

At SmugMug, you're always covered by the SmugMug guarantee. http://www.smugmug.com/prints/our-guarantee.mg Whether you, your client, the lab, SmugMug, the post office or shipper ruins an order, it's all covered. Buyer remorse is even covered (e.g., the colors don't match my dining room. I don't want it.)

You may find other services that offer 10 or 12% commission, but I've never seen a guarantee like SmugMug's anywhere. One $200 canvas out of your own pocket, or in my case, 50 wallet sheets is well worth paying a couple extra percentage points in commission. One large order being mashed by the USPS is more than you'll pay SmugMug in a year in 'extra' commission.

clap

barb

clap

barb

Miko40D · December 15, 2010

Even if ALL I used my SM Pro account for was the unlimited STORAGE, $150 is cheap!!! SmugMug is anything but a rip-off.

Cygnus Studios · December 15, 2010

TxTortoise wrote: »

As has been discussed over and over on here, if you want to run a business, run it like one. Either your business model supports what SmugMug offers or it doesn't.

Being in business isn't cheap or easy. If it were, everyone would be running a business. Smugmug is without a doubt the cheapest yearly expense of our studio. I was using Bay Photo before joining smugmug and was thrilled to death when they made the switch offering this service. I have yet to find anyone as consistent and in the end that is the most important aspect to print sales.

As far as commissions go, the customer service at smugmug is worth every cent in my opinion. Not only do they fix their problems, but fix your problems and those of the client. What other company do you deal with that guarantees to fix your clients problem for you? I wish that every vendor that I dealt with would follow this business model.

SamirD · December 18, 2010

As others have said in this thread, you truly have to look at what you're getting for the price and how it fits into your business model. I use SM. A friend of mine uses Mpix. He sits down with his client, goes over the photos, places the orders, and then delivers them. I watch the orders come through on email 24x7 at any hours my customers wish. And if they need me, they can contact me. If they have issues (which in over 5 years I've had zero complaints), SM is there to help resolve the issues. We have two different business models and we use two different partners for our fulfillment.

And the cost of hosting the photos alone is no joke if you have high-volume traffic. In my peak months, there's 350,000+ photos viewed a month. On busy days, 30,000+. I was hosting all this myself at 1/4 these traffic levels and it was costing me a lot more than SM. Plus, there was no way for me to offer prints for sale. SM fit the bill for my business model. And with high-quality products that aim to be the very best, they're right up there with what I strive for too.

Win-win in my book.

gregger · January 19, 2011

Like most people who can press a shutter, I have aspirations to have my work on the walls of every well-heeled home in the world, and / or have my work be in demand for all the hottest actors, theatre / performance events, etc. Or have every mountain top, sunset, or vista demand to be photographed by me.

But, it's just me... and those demands are not quite there yet.

So, when considering where to put photos for display and purchase, SmugMug was one of my top choices for a few reasons that I think most photographers don't even consider when starting out...

The $150 fee is worth it alone for the following features:

NOT having to create galleries, and maintain a web site (with a disk or bandwidth quota) for photo galleries
Using "Event Galleries" to let people choose "Favorites" so I can finalize images I deliver as proofs (this could be improved, but is OK)
Offering instant resizing options for clients (or restricting sizing)
Allowing for removable watermarking
Private, hidden, public and smart, keyword-enabled galleries
Custom-domains and customizability
And of course the shopping experience

I grew up in the Monterey Bay area and used Bay Photo Lab exclusively for film stuff (well, my mom was the pro then). So using them again feels familiar and good.

All those points above make it fairly easy to part with $150. It's up to me to make my services pay for that. I would love for my "retail" sales to pay for that, but mostly, I bill for hours when I do headshots.

If SmugMug offered me a way to deliver 100's of "Reproductions-level" (the photo reproduction house) headshots to actors, I'd be a one-stop shop for them. They pay like $250 for 300 8x10 color images with a black or white border, text (actor's name), and maybe a thin black or white frame around the image. I'd rather give SmugMug some % of that business and me some % of that business. Actors hand these out like big business cards, and directors toss them in the landfill.

So, when you hear another photographer talk about how easy it is to create "web galleries" in Photoshop, Lightroom, or whatever... just smile and nod.

Count the hours up that you save by NOT managing all that crap and go use those hours to take pictures. I guess. Or play with puppies. It's up to you.

TTFN
Gregg

Smugmug a Rip Off?

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