Whilst, I don't agree or understand (glad to see awais doesn't either) why extremists would kill for offending thier faith or family, I'm certainly not surprised & certainly don't believe that this is representitive of the muslim faith. Seems to me that family & faith are far more honourable reasons for killing than most we see on the news each & every day in our "civilized" societies....money, drugs, entertainment, sex, don't like mondays
I liked your freedom of speech post and am sorry you got some grief via email. I'd offset this against the good mail you have been sent.
You then post this about supporting suicide bombers and I'm left wondering if you just don't know what your real thoughts are.
I'd suggest slowing down. Keep taking the pics and just post facts. Give the date and location. Your comments lead to miss-interpretation so keep them simple.
Heading a post that only literate people are asked to respond to can lead to unwanted attention.
Bod.
"The important thing is to just take the picture with the lens you have when the picture happens." Jerry Lodriguss - Sports Photographer
**Disclaimer**
What I am about to say may offend, anger, hurt, defame, etc, some people. I however live in america where free speech is normal. So if you are easily offended, angered, whatever, stop reading here. Also I am at work and typing fast so things may be misspelled, and may not be to the letter of history but are close enough for people to get the gist of it.
**/Disclaimer**
This is why there will never be world peace, this is why we live our lives in fear of what may happen in the next minute, this is why our children will live there lives in fear, this is why our grandchildren will live there lives in fear.
Intolerance, religious zealouts, and humans.
Look at the crusades, look at the holocaust, and now look at this supposed jihad. All of these wars have caused useless death. Why? Because some human crazed with power, having to be right, having to be the correct person who knows everything, got alittle bit of knowledge about a religion. Claimed they understood it and new everything about it and became a zealout. Because they were the right one, the only person who knew anything, they were intolerant of anyone else who thought differently. They began to spread their views, and convinced (starts with con) others to beleive the same as them. But see they have to be the one true brain, the only person who really knows anything, the one with all the power. So they grow their numbers, then they get ticked because not everyone will follow them like sheep. So they decide to force everyone else to either believe them or die.
All these people who say "kill for this, kill for that, kill in the name of god, kill in the name of muhamad, kill in the name of abrham, etc" aren't really religous people, they aren't educated, and they aren't enlightened like they claim. They inolerant bigots. The suicide bomber is no better than hitler who is no better than the romans who put jesus on the cross who are no better than the rapist who raped and murdered a little kid.
And whenever a religous zealout gets power it doesn't make things better for their community, it doesn't make things better for their region, it doesn't make things better for anyone.
Jesus sat and ate with the prostitute and the lepper, The oil in the monorah that was supposed to only last one day lasted eight, buddha gave up his worldy possesions to live in peace with everything, mother tereasa sacraficed to make the lives of everyone she could better, etc.
These idols, these gods, these prophets, these saints, these people who are important to each person in their own individual ways weren't intolerant, they didn't go about killing, they didn't go about telling people to kill.
If people truly studied their religion, if they truly understood it, they would understand all religion teachs the same thing. Tolerance and love. The quran doesn't teach to kill, the bible doesn't teach to kill, and people who say these books teach to kill aren't reading the book. They are taking small tidbits and perverting them to their own needs and desires.
Awais if you truly think the quran teaches vengence and that it is the only true way then I am truly sorry for your poor upbringing and understanding of life and the world.
And people wonder why I don't want to have biological children. Look at the world we live in. Why would I want to bring another life into a world that will never see peace or enlightenment. It's unfortunate so many weak souls end up with so much power and influence in this world. It's unfortunate those so many people who claim to be religous and understand their beliefs are clueless to what they were supposed to learn. cry:cry
Well Jihad's 1st condition is Not to kill un armed, not to kill children,not to burn houses and crops,not to kill person who surrenders,not to kill old people,dont even touch a women
There are many many Hadits(hadits are sayings of Muhammad PBUH) against harming innocent person people who dont follow these ruls of Jihad are also insulting Muhammad and they should be punished
About people in protest well i went there becouse i felt offended and thought i should go for protest and thats my right and every muslim is offended by that action should go to Protest but protest should be in humane way not RIOTS i knew students of college will disturb the peace of city as they always do i was not there
If anybody want to have proper discussion i am here but EMAIL me or PM me onwards i like people who are willing to ask question but in sensible way
what is the way 1st pargraph full of insult and slang langauge then a question i simply ignore the ignorant
so please email me i love to talk about it in proper manner
And about dpreview i haven't translated any slogan nor want to post my thoughts these people want me to get hyper and then i will post some bashing and then i will be banned thats why they dragged whole thread to some where else and sensible great photographers only replied what was asked
Shukriya
My English :uhoh what can i say about my thoughts my thoughts are he should be accountable for what he published same editor refused to publish cartoons of Jesus what he thought was people will be offended by that or he should pray for his forgiveness from GOD thats better then anything
Thine is the beauty of light; mine is the song of fire. Thy beauty exalts the heart; my song inspires the soul. Allama Iqbal
Hi Everybody
According to Islamic Law
"Person who insult Prophets of God should be killed"
Well this law is applicable in all muslim countries so if the cartoonist ever visited islamic country he will be hanged :hung or if he did that unintentionaly he may excuse for that and thats what people want
well definatly if someone takes law in his own hands will also be punsihed
Islam also have laws against Muslim insulting other religion have to search about it
Thine is the beauty of light; mine is the song of fire. Thy beauty exalts the heart; my song inspires the soul. Allama Iqbal
Hi Everybody
According to Islamic Law
"Person who insult Prophets of God should be killed"
Well this law is applicable in all muslim countries so if the cartoonist ever visited islamic country he will be hanged :hung or if he did that unintentionaly he may excuse for that and thats what people want
well definatly if someone takes law in his own hands will also be punsihed
Islam also have laws against Muslim insulting other religion have to search about it
Total trash. Your an idiot.
If you want to keep on with your death threats you better improve on this crap. By your rules its easy to justify killing just about anyone you want. I am the infidel after all. More than enough reason to be killed.
Muhammad warns of God’s punishment for mocking his prophets back in the year 624. A few thousand years later and you think you can dish out any old punishment you and your radical friends want.
I would not trust you to judge a dog show let alone give an opinion on a legal matter. Your posts are misleading.
After the Battle of Badr (AD 624)
The Battle of Badr saw about 320 Muslims defeat about 1,000 Meccans, seventy to eighty miles west of Medina, at the wells of Badr, near a frequented trade route, which led up to the King’s Highway and on to Syria. Muhammad is now strong enough to commit the following acts of violence and persecution without a substantial fear of reprisal.
Before Muhammad’s Hijrah, he used to sit in the assembly and invite the Meccans to Allah, reciting the Quran and warning them of God’s punishment for mocking his prophets. A Meccan named Al-Nadr bin al-Harith would then follow him and speak about heroes and kings of Persia, saying, "By God, Muhammad cannot tell a better story than I, and his talk is only of old fables which he has copied as I have." On other days al-Nadr would interrupt Muhammad until the prophet silenced him.
It was al-Nadir’s bad fortune to join Mecca’s army, riding north to protect their caravan, which Muhammad attacked at the Battle of Badr. The story-telling polytheist was captured, and on Muhammad’s return journey back to Medina, Ali, Muhammad’s cousin and son-in-law, at Muhammad’s order, beheaded him, instead of getting some possible ransom money. He was one of two prisoners who were executed and not allowed to be ransomed by their clans—all because he wrote poems and told stories critiquing Muhammad.
"The important thing is to just take the picture with the lens you have when the picture happens." Jerry Lodriguss - Sports Photographer
I was trying to give Awais the benefit of the doubt given the language barrier. but I still had my doubts. after his last post what more do you need to know.
I have my views on Islam. this only confirms them even more.
I'm not going to get into any nasty cyber exchanges here on dGrin.
I don't pretend to be up on the subject, but I've been in a university environment long enough to know that you can't take thousand year old texts for their literal meaning. Theolgians of any and all religions agree that they are meant to be interpreted and for this reason too often mis-interpreted. Before you can go taking "laws" out of a religious text, you really should be VERY up on your history.
I don't pretend to be up on the subject, but I've been in a university environment long enough to know that you can't take thousand year old texts for their literal meaning. Theolgians of any and all religions agree that they are meant to be interpreted and for this reason too often mis-interpreted. Before you can go taking "laws" out of a religious text, you really should be VERY up on your history.
i wonder why are people against a person who spoke truth :uhoh
i told what i heard and one more thing there are people who insult Prophet but not yet punished in Pakistan as i said it only after someone is found guilty
Thine is the beauty of light; mine is the song of fire. Thy beauty exalts the heart; my song inspires the soul. Allama Iqbal
i wonder why are people against a person who spoke truth :uhoh
Because, you moron, you go around advocating KILLING PEOPLE simply because they insult you and yet claim to belong to a "peaceful" religion. That's why. You've been brainwashed by your religious leaders. Start thinking for yourself.
If you want to keep on with your death threats you better improve on this crap. By your rules its easy to justify killing just about anyone you want. I am the infidel after all. More than enough reason to be killed.
Muhammad warns of God’s punishment for mocking his prophets back in the year 624. A few thousand years later and you think you can dish out any old punishment you and your radical friends want.
I would not trust you to judge a dog show let alone give an opinion on a legal matter. Your posts are misleading.
After the Battle of Badr (AD 624)
The Battle of Badr saw about 320 Muslims defeat about 1,000 Meccans, seventy to eighty miles west of Medina, at the wells of Badr, near a frequented trade route, which led up to the King’s Highway and on to Syria. Muhammad is now strong enough to commit the following acts of violence and persecution without a substantial fear of reprisal.
Before Muhammad’s Hijrah, he used to sit in the assembly and invite the Meccans to Allah, reciting the Quran and warning them of God’s punishment for mocking his prophets. A Meccan named Al-Nadr bin al-Harith would then follow him and speak about heroes and kings of Persia, saying, "By God, Muhammad cannot tell a better story than I, and his talk is only of old fables which he has copied as I have." On other days al-Nadr would interrupt Muhammad until the prophet silenced him.
It was al-Nadir’s bad fortune to join Mecca’s army, riding north to protect their caravan, which Muhammad attacked at the Battle of Badr. The story-telling polytheist was captured, and on Muhammad’s return journey back to Medina, Ali, Muhammad’s cousin and son-in-law, at Muhammad’s order, beheaded him, instead of getting some possible ransom money. He was one of two prisoners who were executed and not allowed to be ransomed by their clans—all because he wrote poems and told stories critiquing Muhammad.
I want to see the source of the material as a lot of websites are spreading misinformation about Islam
And have'nt your read the part where Muhammad forgave all prisoners and non believers after victory of war and no you haven't read the part where non believers who turned into muslims said you were more then 313 bt actualy muslims were 313? also a women known as HINDA who killed Muhammad's beloved uncle ? this attitude was enough to turn all non believers into Muslems and this is reson of spread of Islam.
And their must be some reason to kill that person.but i will conferm and tell you why he was not rennsomed must be some other reason becouse Muhammad forgave a person who thre garbage on him btw that person was Muslim ? BTW Prophet also forgave all Jews and Non Beleivers when he won victory over Macca and people of that time also admited Muhmmad is True person you should remember in USA supream court Muhammad's sculpture was installed as best example of justice and in your own country the biggest law college has name of Muhammad PBUH on top of all jugdes i dont think so people who gave him that honour are un educated illitrate like me
but i am also intrested what is source and if you dont know there are many websites translating Quran and Prophets teachings in totaly opposite even they are not ran by moslems
Thanks
Think and study before you say anything www.irf.net most authentic web about islam on earth it has several answers of question and free downloadbale books if you are intrested to grow your knowlege
I am not Islamic scholer who can tell you everything everything has logic and science has proved many things stated in Quran 1400 years ago
i.e earth revolves around sun
many more things but those things are for your if you are intrested as a friend i will advice you not to start arguing harshly if someone dont agree woth you
Shukriya for Idiot:cry
Thine is the beauty of light; mine is the song of fire. Thy beauty exalts the heart; my song inspires the soul. Allama Iqbal
Because, you moron, you go around advocating KILLING PEOPLE simply because they insult you and yet claim to belong to a "peaceful" religion. That's why. You've been brainwashed by your religious leaders. Start thinking for yourself.
So lost person
who said People just a person if he falls in boundires of country where Islamic law is in force and government has right to punish him if he is guilty
thats all is it hard to understand
Moron ? what dose this mean
Thine is the beauty of light; mine is the song of fire. Thy beauty exalts the heart; my song inspires the soul. Allama Iqbal
it means you are dealing with an ill mannered individual.
Harry http://behret.smugmug.com/NANPA member How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
I want to see the source of the material as a lot of websites are spreading misinformation about Islam
And have'nt your read the part where Muhammad forgave all prisoners and non believers after victory of war and no you haven't read the part where non believers who turned into muslims said you were more then 313 bt actualy muslims were 313? also a women known as HINDA who killed Muhammad's beloved uncle ? this attitude was enough to turn all non believers into Muslems and this is reson of spread of Islam.
And their must be some reason to kill that person.but i will conferm and tell you why he was not rennsomed must be some other reason becouse Muhammad forgave a person who thre garbage on him btw that person was Muslim ? BTW Prophet also forgave all Jews and Non Beleivers when he won victory over Macca and people of that time also admited Muhmmad is True person you should remember in USA supream court Muhammad's sculpture was installed as best example of justice and in your own country the biggest law college has name of Muhammad PBUH on top of all jugdes i dont think so people who gave him that honour are un educated illitrate like me
but i am also intrested what is source and if you dont know there are many websites translating Quran and Prophets teachings in totaly opposite even they are not ran by moslems
Thanks
Think and study before you say anything www.irf.net most authentic web about islam on earth it has several answers of question and free downloadbale books if you are intrested to grow your knowlege
I am not Islamic scholer who can tell you everything everything has logic and science has proved many things stated in Quran 1400 years ago
i.e earth revolves around sun
many more things but those things are for your if you are intrested as a friend i will advice you not to start arguing harshly if someone dont agree woth you
Shukriya for Idiot:cry
I had deleted my source on purpose to show how annoying it was to quote without backing it up. It's good that this is the part you find most annoying. A lesson learned that quotes and translations can be wrong or changed and unsourced material is worthless, even a 1500 year old story.
As you say I'm sure you can find a totally opposite view of anything you choose, as can I and as can anyone else.
Leave it to God to sort out and don't act on his behalf. (I made this up myself, no need to search for a source)
I'm very disappointed that you are not a more moderate man of the World with a forward thinking attitude. Your part of the World needs people to look forward and not backwards. So your upset over a cartoon, sorry to hear that. Maybe they should never have been published but they have been, many times now.
"The important thing is to just take the picture with the lens you have when the picture happens." Jerry Lodriguss - Sports Photographer
I don't think we are "better". Put us in the same environment as the protestors in the pic and we will act in a similar manner. During my two years in Vietnam I saw priviliged Americans act in qute uncivilized ways once they were freed from the usual cultural restictions placed on them at home. I am not speaking of military operations either. They were in a position of power and surrounded by a culture they felt superior to.
We just disagree. I have trouble assuming cultural superiority for anyone.
I've been mulling over your comment since yesterday. I find it disquieting, but it took me a while to articulate why.
The key phrase here is "once they were freed from the usual cultural restrictions placed on them at home."
I understand that Americans did unacceptable things in Vietnam, and likely do unacceptable things now in Iraq- but I hardly think one ought to base an evaluation of a culture's ethical standards on the behaviour of groups of people who have been deliberately subjected to conditioning intended to undermine or modify their society's taboos concerning killing and other ethical responsibilities (also known as boot camp), and then placed in the most stressful environment possible- removed from social safety nets such as family, in a totally alien environment with unfamiliar language, culture, and religion, and then being further stressed by the fact that one is surrounded by people you don't understand who are actively trying to kill you (and are often indistinguishable from those who you are supposed to be protecting). It's tough to ask a 19 year old kid to do this, without going a bit crazy. What's remarkabe to me is not that incidents of brutality occur, but that thye don't occur far more often. Particularly since the pyschological defense mechanisms and justifications for killing (not political, I mean, but ethical) such as the UCMJ and rules of engagenment, are not respected by your opponent. Fighting the Viet Cong and fighting Iraqi insurgents is not like tangling with Wehrmacht forces on the western front. They are often disguised as civilians. They do not respect non-combatants. They do not treat wounded and prisoners in a manner that US soldiers do, a manner that is crucial to their ability to distinguish between ther role as "soldier" and their role as "civilian", and to compartmentalize their behaviour accordingly.
The key difference between the US and some other cultures is not bad behaviour on the battlefield, rather it is how this behaviour is dealt with by the US itself.
It's easy to point to deviations from our self-professed ethical standards and say "See, America doesn't live up to its own code. America is hypocritical and evil." But making rules from exceptions is bad moral theorizing and bad sociological investigation. The interesting thing about My Lai or Abu Ghraib is not so much that they happened, but that folks were punished for it.
The US has racism, and nastiness. But I have lived in many different places in the world, even in "civilized" Europe, where such attitudes exist, not on the fringes, but in the mainstream, and where such sentiments are not cloaked or hidden, but openly expressed- not by the illiterate lumpenproletariat, but by educated elites.
This is what is so disturbing and, indeed, disheartening about Awais' attitude towards equating the hurt caused by physical violence with the hurt caused by sounds made by the lips or images created by a pen. Awais is an elite- as is anyone in Pakistan with a command of english and enough resources to obtain the kind of equipment necessary to participate in these forums. If these educated elites who are exposed to other cultures are unable to develop tolerance, or to even think of attempting to understand things from someone else's point of view, or to attempt to talk out problems rather than kill because of them, what hope do we have of ever living in peace (if not tranquillity) with each other?
I regard reason as superior to blind faith. I regard restraint and self-control as superior to anger and a mind ruled by the passions. I am confident enough in the worth of my own cultural beliefs and practices that I do not care if someone on the other side of the globe lives differently than me, and am not threatened by the cultural autonomy of others. If you believe this also, then you cannot morally equate ways of life and actions this sort of belief system produces and the sorts of ways of life and actions that are produced by belief systems that cannot accept the expression of difference, even outside thier own cultural sphere, without trying to kill or advocating the killing of those that differ.
Everyone prefers their own way. That's normal, and acceptable. However, I doubt anyone in the US is going to secretly arm, train, and fund anyone to go out and whack a Tunisian who lives in New York because some jackass wrote a nasty play about christianity. "Piss Christ" did not generate blocks and blocks of burned out buildings. The Madonna with elephant dung generated controersy insofar as christian groups felt that thier taxes shouldn't be used to pay for it. That's a far cry from burnin down the Brooklyn museum.
Do you feel that there is a difference between these two types of reactions, or not?
Because, you moron, you go around advocating KILLING PEOPLE simply because they insult you and yet claim to belong to a "peaceful" religion. That's why. You've been brainwashed by your religious leaders. Start thinking for yourself.
Bill - there will be NO personal attacks on Dgrin. NONE. ZERO. Civilized debate ONLY and if it continues then you are not welcome to participate here.
Can't this thread be ended somehow? It's hard enough to have a civilized conversation on this topic when you were raised in the same country, speak the same native language, and can look each other in the eye, let alone when you try to understand people from a different background, who are not native speakers in the language they communicate in and try to express their words by typing short messages. Things are getting out of hand.
I would hate to see this thread locked, some people here just need to drop this thread. If you want to talk with Awais about it I am sure he will be glad too. Use a pm, use e-mail, more than once he has invited those with strong words on the subject to talk it over via e-mail. Lets not make Andy lock this one. While he has expressed beliefs that I do not have and do not agree with, I feel that the blame for this thread running wild is not on his shoulders, to me it is clear that he came here to talk about the photos, not the politics.
James, actually I agree with you. I was not posting a request to the moderators to lock the thread, but a request to the participants to just drop the conversation. English not being my native language, I guess I had some trouble making myself clear...
You raise good and thoughtful points Mr. J. I agree with you about reason, self-restraint. I do feel that our reactions to the protests over the cartoon are culturally biased (my initial reactions also).
I have no doubt that the Muslim outrage has been used and inflamed by Muslim extremists for their own political aims. I also believe that the Muslim world will also have to accept that the rest of us our not bound by their religious beliefs.
That said you also have to look at own society before starting to feel too superior. In our brief history we have committed many acts of violence. You can start with our treatment of native Americans, slavery, the Mexican War (just your basic land grab), the killing of over 100,000 Filipinos in the early 1900s during our occupation of the Filipinos, etc, etc. In my short lifetime I have seen politically motivated acts that included churches bombed, children killed, race riots, folks murdered for their sexual preference, medical clinics bombed, doctors assassinated, police murdered, individuals kidnapped, students shot by soldiers, government buildings bombed, etc, etc.
Today you have the religious right (the American Taliban) that seeks to impose its religious values on the rest of us just as the Muslim extremists would. You have teens going out on "bum hunts". You have gay bashing. You have racial animosities.
When I was prez of my college Young Republican club I attended many Republican leadership conferences and conventions. When we hung out and had a few drinks and lowered our guard racism, homophobia, and sexism was rampant.
What separates us from the Muslim protesters is not our "superiority" but our comfort and our affluence.
Harry http://behret.smugmug.com/NANPA member How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
Harry, you are very correct there. As a little background on myself, there is a little American indian, and German-jewish blood in my veins (some family members where even in the camps), not to mention that I am engaged to a filipino and just got back from a month in the south of the PI. I think you and I are on the same page on this one, the US has done more than its fair share of needless violence.
Ya i admit Islam is full of radical people and i meet them but i tell them on their face that you are wrong
If someone has a question this is one billionth time i am saying
"Email me PM me, call me visit me at home" i will love to answer and personal attacks are not my way i dont like them i dont like ot insult an individual
About kids or anyone in the protest they have their viewpoints like everyone of you if somebody dont agree with you then it is not necessory he is wrong both Muslims and West
and we are not also happy about riots or damages people doing that are barbarians i agree and these are pain big pain now my college dropped for 1 week . And those radicals doing all riots are also not Mullahs or any pro muslim but youngsters and like that who gets advantage to rob shops etc
They even burnt 300 Qurans in Shop Radical deserve more then anyone
today going to one more protest but i think it will be messive clash between police and people Pakistani police is number one to treat radicals what they deserve they even beat photographers :cry
Thine is the beauty of light; mine is the song of fire. Thy beauty exalts the heart; my song inspires the soul. Allama Iqbal
Get the shots, Awais, but try and be as careful as possible. I've had one brush with protests turning into serious violence, and I would not like to repeat it.
people i am already been banned from forum where i learnt everything due to too much off topic discussions started by some people i posted one reply to them today considering their posts as spam dont want to leave this forum what do you say should i post pics if you can hold them ? becouse i love to share pics things going around thats all nothing to convert anybody or insulting anyone todays creation :-
"People may not believe in speech becouse it may be a lie but people believe photography becouse it is reality and people believe in photos" awais yaqub
Thats reality protest was held and i was there and loved when i was photographing whole event standing by the AFP,REUTERS photographers and people were thinking i am a photographer it was like i have done 2 things in one event Join the protest and photograph it
As i will join all protests which are peaceful and wont cry for whipping countries for one person and no one did that
Thine is the beauty of light; mine is the song of fire. Thy beauty exalts the heart; my song inspires the soul. Allama Iqbal
What separates us from the Muslim protesters is not our "superiority" but our comfort and our affluence.
I agree that this is certainly one of the things that seperates us from the protesters, but I don't think it is the only thing that seperates us.
I'm not happy that lots of folks hold closely guarded racist opinions- but I am happy that they are guarded. It's not everything, but it is a step in the right direction. There is a general cultural ambience in the United States that holds that such opinions are unacceptable in polite company. What this means is that, though multicultural and tolerant viewpoints may not be ubiquitous in the US, they are hegemonic. It sucks when folks say "I don't have anything against [insert ethnic or religious group], but..." But at least its better than Europe, where folks just say "there are a lot of n***** in New York, no?" By the way, the guy that said this is a colleague of mine from Northen Europe with a PhD in chemistry. And he is not unusual. Nor is intense and endemi racism confined to "the west." On a business trip to china there was a serious difference in the way I was treated, and my black colleague (also a chemist) was treated.
There is an American Taloban, in the form of folks even farther to the right than Pat Robertson. But they are fringe nutters who have no chance of ever realizing their twisted desires for domination- thier beliefs simply have no resonance in general American culture. Not even in the deepest South (the most ethnoculturally homogenous section of the US) where I am from, nor certainly in the urban North east. On my block, there are only two people born in the United States. Me and a guy from, I think, Minnesota. That right wing crap just doesn't play anymore, even in Peoria.
That doesn't mean that there aren't holdout areas of xenophobia and meanness. But the hegemonic culture has moved in a different direction, and once the holders of those outdated ideas die, then the ideas will likely be gone.
We have come a long way in a short time. My father can remember when he (living in rochester) would go visit family in Alabam in the 50s. They had, within living memory, seperate drinking fountains for seperate races. An interracial couple pretty much garaunteed a lynching.
When I go to the South on business, I see stuff like that all the time. Those are huge strides for 50 years. It's something to be proud of, and something that does give me a measure of hope for the possibility of Progress in the human condition (sorry to use that phrase).
I am not sure that the rest of the world is going that route, though.
Get the shots, Awais, but try and be as careful as possible. I've had one brush with protests turning into serious violence, and I would not like to repeat it.
thanks for short reply :
Thine is the beauty of light; mine is the song of fire. Thy beauty exalts the heart; my song inspires the soul. Allama Iqbal
people i am already been banned from forum where i learnt everything due to too much off topic discussions started by some people <img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/rolleyes1.gif" border="0" alt="" >i posted one reply to them today considering their posts as spam dont want to leave this forum what do you say should i post pics if you can hold them ? becouse i love to share pics things going around thats all nothing to convert anybody or insulting anyone
<img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/mwink.gif" border="0" alt="" > todays creation :-
"People may not believe in speech becouse it may be a lie but people believe photography becouse it is reality and people believe in photos"
awais yaqub
Thats reality protest was held and i was there and loved when i was photographing whole event standing by the AFP,REUTERS photographers and people were thinking i am a photographer it was like i have done 2 things in one event Join the protest and photograph it <img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/rolleyes1.gif" border="0" alt="" >
As i will join all protests which are peaceful and wont cry for whipping countries for one person and no one did that
I think you will do well with your photography. You are standing next to top photographers.
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You are obviously not an idiot, sorry for that comment.
Post your pic's....
"The important thing is to just take the picture with the lens you have when the picture happens." Jerry Lodriguss - Sports Photographer
This thread, while mostly civil is right on the edge of causing members to dislike one another and cause artificial divisions based on political beliefs. There are plenty of places on the internet, corner cafe, and livingroom to debate politics, pound thy chest, and howl at the moon
The moderators will be taking a more active role to have a low tolerance policy on purely political debates. This is not a ban on photojournalistic posts, those are still encouraged. But when they decend into political debates, they will be actively pruned.
This thread will remain open for now, and discussion about photography is encouraged.
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I wonder if we're stereotyped too
gubbs.smugmug.com
I liked your freedom of speech post and am sorry you got some grief via email. I'd offset this against the good mail you have been sent.
You then post this about supporting suicide bombers and I'm left wondering if you just don't know what your real thoughts are.
I'd suggest slowing down. Keep taking the pics and just post facts. Give the date and location. Your comments lead to miss-interpretation so keep them simple.
Heading a post that only literate people are asked to respond to can lead to unwanted attention.
Bod.
Jerry Lodriguss - Sports Photographer
Reporters sans frontières
What I am about to say may offend, anger, hurt, defame, etc, some people. I however live in america where free speech is normal. So if you are easily offended, angered, whatever, stop reading here. Also I am at work and typing fast so things may be misspelled, and may not be to the letter of history but are close enough for people to get the gist of it.
**/Disclaimer**
This is why there will never be world peace, this is why we live our lives in fear of what may happen in the next minute, this is why our children will live there lives in fear, this is why our grandchildren will live there lives in fear.
Intolerance, religious zealouts, and humans.
Look at the crusades, look at the holocaust, and now look at this supposed jihad. All of these wars have caused useless death. Why? Because some human crazed with power, having to be right, having to be the correct person who knows everything, got alittle bit of knowledge about a religion. Claimed they understood it and new everything about it and became a zealout. Because they were the right one, the only person who knew anything, they were intolerant of anyone else who thought differently. They began to spread their views, and convinced (starts with con) others to beleive the same as them. But see they have to be the one true brain, the only person who really knows anything, the one with all the power. So they grow their numbers, then they get ticked because not everyone will follow them like sheep. So they decide to force everyone else to either believe them or die.
All these people who say "kill for this, kill for that, kill in the name of god, kill in the name of muhamad, kill in the name of abrham, etc" aren't really religous people, they aren't educated, and they aren't enlightened like they claim. They inolerant bigots. The suicide bomber is no better than hitler who is no better than the romans who put jesus on the cross who are no better than the rapist who raped and murdered a little kid.
And whenever a religous zealout gets power it doesn't make things better for their community, it doesn't make things better for their region, it doesn't make things better for anyone.
Jesus sat and ate with the prostitute and the lepper, The oil in the monorah that was supposed to only last one day lasted eight, buddha gave up his worldy possesions to live in peace with everything, mother tereasa sacraficed to make the lives of everyone she could better, etc.
These idols, these gods, these prophets, these saints, these people who are important to each person in their own individual ways weren't intolerant, they didn't go about killing, they didn't go about telling people to kill.
If people truly studied their religion, if they truly understood it, they would understand all religion teachs the same thing. Tolerance and love. The quran doesn't teach to kill, the bible doesn't teach to kill, and people who say these books teach to kill aren't reading the book. They are taking small tidbits and perverting them to their own needs and desires.
Awais if you truly think the quran teaches vengence and that it is the only true way then I am truly sorry for your poor upbringing and understanding of life and the world.
And people wonder why I don't want to have biological children. Look at the world we live in. Why would I want to bring another life into a world that will never see peace or enlightenment. It's unfortunate so many weak souls end up with so much power and influence in this world. It's unfortunate those so many people who claim to be religous and understand their beliefs are clueless to what they were supposed to learn.
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There are many many Hadits(hadits are sayings of Muhammad PBUH) against harming innocent person people who dont follow these ruls of Jihad are also insulting Muhammad and they should be punished
About people in protest well i went there becouse i felt offended and thought i should go for protest and thats my right and every muslim is offended by that action should go to Protest but protest should be in humane way not RIOTS i knew students of college will disturb the peace of city as they always do i was not there
If anybody want to have proper discussion i am here but EMAIL me or PM me onwards i like people who are willing to ask question but in sensible way
what is the way 1st pargraph full of insult and slang langauge then a question i simply ignore the ignorant
so please email me i love to talk about it in proper manner
And about dpreview i haven't translated any slogan nor want to post my thoughts these people want me to get hyper and then i will post some bashing and then i will be banned
Shukriya
My English :uhoh what can i say about my thoughts my thoughts are he should be accountable for what he published same editor refused to publish cartoons of Jesus what he thought was people will be offended by that or he should pray for his forgiveness from GOD thats better then anything
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According to Islamic Law
"Person who insult Prophets of God should be killed"
Well this law is applicable in all muslim countries so if the cartoonist ever visited islamic country he will be hanged :hung or if he did that unintentionaly he may excuse for that and thats what people want
well definatly if someone takes law in his own hands will also be punsihed
Islam also have laws against Muslim insulting other religion have to search about it
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Total trash. Your an idiot.
If you want to keep on with your death threats you better improve on this crap. By your rules its easy to justify killing just about anyone you want. I am the infidel after all. More than enough reason to be killed.
Muhammad warns of God’s punishment for mocking his prophets back in the year 624. A few thousand years later and you think you can dish out any old punishment you and your radical friends want.
I would not trust you to judge a dog show let alone give an opinion on a legal matter. Your posts are misleading.
After the Battle of Badr (AD 624)
The Battle of Badr saw about 320 Muslims defeat about 1,000 Meccans, seventy to eighty miles west of Medina, at the wells of Badr, near a frequented trade route, which led up to the King’s Highway and on to Syria. Muhammad is now strong enough to commit the following acts of violence and persecution without a substantial fear of reprisal.
Before Muhammad’s Hijrah, he used to sit in the assembly and invite the Meccans to Allah, reciting the Quran and warning them of God’s punishment for mocking his prophets. A Meccan named Al-Nadr bin al-Harith would then follow him and speak about heroes and kings of Persia, saying, "By God, Muhammad cannot tell a better story than I, and his talk is only of old fables which he has copied as I have." On other days al-Nadr would interrupt Muhammad until the prophet silenced him.
It was al-Nadir’s bad fortune to join Mecca’s army, riding north to protect their caravan, which Muhammad attacked at the Battle of Badr. The story-telling polytheist was captured, and on Muhammad’s return journey back to Medina, Ali, Muhammad’s cousin and son-in-law, at Muhammad’s order, beheaded him, instead of getting some possible ransom money. He was one of two prisoners who were executed and not allowed to be ransomed by their clans—all because he wrote poems and told stories critiquing Muhammad.
Jerry Lodriguss - Sports Photographer
Reporters sans frontières
I have my views on Islam. this only confirms them even more.
I'm not going to get into any nasty cyber exchanges here on dGrin.
but I sure would like too.
loser.
moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]
i told what i heard and one more thing there are people who insult Prophet but not yet punished in Pakistan as i said it only after someone is found guilty
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I want to see the source of the material as a lot of websites are spreading misinformation about Islam
And have'nt your read the part where Muhammad forgave all prisoners and non believers after victory of war and no you haven't read the part where non believers who turned into muslims said you were more then 313 bt actualy muslims were 313? also a women known as HINDA who killed Muhammad's beloved uncle ? this attitude was enough to turn all non believers into Muslems and this is reson of spread of Islam.
And their must be some reason to kill that person.but i will conferm and tell you why he was not rennsomed must be some other reason becouse Muhammad forgave a person who thre garbage on him btw that person was Muslim ? BTW Prophet also forgave all Jews and Non Beleivers when he won victory over Macca and people of that time also admited Muhmmad is True person you should remember in USA supream court Muhammad's sculpture was installed as best example of justice and in your own country the biggest law college has name of Muhammad PBUH on top of all jugdes i dont think so people who gave him that honour are un educated illitrate like me
but i am also intrested what is source and if you dont know there are many websites translating Quran and Prophets teachings in totaly opposite even they are not ran by moslems
Thanks
Think and study before you say anything
www.irf.net most authentic web about islam on earth it has several answers of question and free downloadbale books if you are intrested to grow your knowlege
I am not Islamic scholer who can tell you everything everything has logic and science has proved many things stated in Quran 1400 years ago
i.e earth revolves around sun
many more things but those things are for your if you are intrested as a friend i will advice you not to start arguing harshly if someone dont agree woth you
Shukriya for Idiot:cry
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who said People just a person if he falls in boundires of country where Islamic law is in force and government has right to punish him if he is guilty
thats all is it hard to understand
Moron ? what dose this mean
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it means you are dealing with an ill mannered individual.
http://behret.smugmug.com/ NANPA member
How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
I had deleted my source on purpose to show how annoying it was to quote without backing it up. It's good that this is the part you find most annoying. A lesson learned that quotes and translations can be wrong or changed and unsourced material is worthless, even a 1500 year old story.
As you say I'm sure you can find a totally opposite view of anything you choose, as can I and as can anyone else.
Leave it to God to sort out and don't act on his behalf. (I made this up myself, no need to search for a source)
I'm very disappointed that you are not a more moderate man of the World with a forward thinking attitude. Your part of the World needs people to look forward and not backwards. So your upset over a cartoon, sorry to hear that. Maybe they should never have been published but they have been, many times now.
Jerry Lodriguss - Sports Photographer
Reporters sans frontières
I've been mulling over your comment since yesterday. I find it disquieting, but it took me a while to articulate why.
The key phrase here is "once they were freed from the usual cultural restrictions placed on them at home."
I understand that Americans did unacceptable things in Vietnam, and likely do unacceptable things now in Iraq- but I hardly think one ought to base an evaluation of a culture's ethical standards on the behaviour of groups of people who have been deliberately subjected to conditioning intended to undermine or modify their society's taboos concerning killing and other ethical responsibilities (also known as boot camp), and then placed in the most stressful environment possible- removed from social safety nets such as family, in a totally alien environment with unfamiliar language, culture, and religion, and then being further stressed by the fact that one is surrounded by people you don't understand who are actively trying to kill you (and are often indistinguishable from those who you are supposed to be protecting). It's tough to ask a 19 year old kid to do this, without going a bit crazy. What's remarkabe to me is not that incidents of brutality occur, but that thye don't occur far more often. Particularly since the pyschological defense mechanisms and justifications for killing (not political, I mean, but ethical) such as the UCMJ and rules of engagenment, are not respected by your opponent. Fighting the Viet Cong and fighting Iraqi insurgents is not like tangling with Wehrmacht forces on the western front. They are often disguised as civilians. They do not respect non-combatants. They do not treat wounded and prisoners in a manner that US soldiers do, a manner that is crucial to their ability to distinguish between ther role as "soldier" and their role as "civilian", and to compartmentalize their behaviour accordingly.
The key difference between the US and some other cultures is not bad behaviour on the battlefield, rather it is how this behaviour is dealt with by the US itself.
It's easy to point to deviations from our self-professed ethical standards and say "See, America doesn't live up to its own code. America is hypocritical and evil." But making rules from exceptions is bad moral theorizing and bad sociological investigation. The interesting thing about My Lai or Abu Ghraib is not so much that they happened, but that folks were punished for it.
The US has racism, and nastiness. But I have lived in many different places in the world, even in "civilized" Europe, where such attitudes exist, not on the fringes, but in the mainstream, and where such sentiments are not cloaked or hidden, but openly expressed- not by the illiterate lumpenproletariat, but by educated elites.
This is what is so disturbing and, indeed, disheartening about Awais' attitude towards equating the hurt caused by physical violence with the hurt caused by sounds made by the lips or images created by a pen. Awais is an elite- as is anyone in Pakistan with a command of english and enough resources to obtain the kind of equipment necessary to participate in these forums. If these educated elites who are exposed to other cultures are unable to develop tolerance, or to even think of attempting to understand things from someone else's point of view, or to attempt to talk out problems rather than kill because of them, what hope do we have of ever living in peace (if not tranquillity) with each other?
I regard reason as superior to blind faith. I regard restraint and self-control as superior to anger and a mind ruled by the passions. I am confident enough in the worth of my own cultural beliefs and practices that I do not care if someone on the other side of the globe lives differently than me, and am not threatened by the cultural autonomy of others. If you believe this also, then you cannot morally equate ways of life and actions this sort of belief system produces and the sorts of ways of life and actions that are produced by belief systems that cannot accept the expression of difference, even outside thier own cultural sphere, without trying to kill or advocating the killing of those that differ.
Everyone prefers their own way. That's normal, and acceptable. However, I doubt anyone in the US is going to secretly arm, train, and fund anyone to go out and whack a Tunisian who lives in New York because some jackass wrote a nasty play about christianity. "Piss Christ" did not generate blocks and blocks of burned out buildings. The Madonna with elephant dung generated controersy insofar as christian groups felt that thier taxes shouldn't be used to pay for it. That's a far cry from burnin down the Brooklyn museum.
Do you feel that there is a difference between these two types of reactions, or not?
Bill - there will be NO personal attacks on Dgrin. NONE. ZERO. Civilized debate ONLY and if it continues then you are not welcome to participate here.
This is inexcusable.
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James.
http://www.jamesjweg.com
I have no doubt that the Muslim outrage has been used and inflamed by Muslim extremists for their own political aims. I also believe that the Muslim world will also have to accept that the rest of us our not bound by their religious beliefs.
That said you also have to look at own society before starting to feel too superior. In our brief history we have committed many acts of violence. You can start with our treatment of native Americans, slavery, the Mexican War (just your basic land grab), the killing of over 100,000 Filipinos in the early 1900s during our occupation of the Filipinos, etc, etc. In my short lifetime I have seen politically motivated acts that included churches bombed, children killed, race riots, folks murdered for their sexual preference, medical clinics bombed, doctors assassinated, police murdered, individuals kidnapped, students shot by soldiers, government buildings bombed, etc, etc.
Today you have the religious right (the American Taliban) that seeks to impose its religious values on the rest of us just as the Muslim extremists would. You have teens going out on "bum hunts". You have gay bashing. You have racial animosities.
When I was prez of my college Young Republican club I attended many Republican leadership conferences and conventions. When we hung out and had a few drinks and lowered our guard racism, homophobia, and sexism was rampant.
What separates us from the Muslim protesters is not our "superiority" but our comfort and our affluence.
http://behret.smugmug.com/ NANPA member
How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
James.
http://www.jamesjweg.com
and what exactly is that supposed to mean? the composition of the shots? the angles? the colors? get real.
If someone has a question this is one billionth time i am saying
"Email me PM me, call me visit me at home" i will love to answer and personal attacks are not my way i dont like them i dont like ot insult an individual
About kids or anyone in the protest they have their viewpoints like everyone of you if somebody dont agree with you then it is not necessory he is wrong both Muslims and West
and we are not also happy about riots or damages people doing that are barbarians i agree and these are pain big pain now my college dropped for 1 week . And those radicals doing all riots are also not Mullahs or any pro muslim but youngsters and like that who gets advantage to rob shops etc
They even burnt 300 Qurans in Shop
today going to one more protest but i think it will be messive clash between police and people
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awais yaqub
Thats reality protest was held and i was there and loved when i was photographing whole event standing by the AFP,REUTERS photographers and people were thinking i am a photographer it was like i have done 2 things in one event Join the protest and photograph it
As i will join all protests which are peaceful and wont cry for whipping countries for one person and no one did that
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I agree that this is certainly one of the things that seperates us from the protesters, but I don't think it is the only thing that seperates us.
I'm not happy that lots of folks hold closely guarded racist opinions- but I am happy that they are guarded. It's not everything, but it is a step in the right direction. There is a general cultural ambience in the United States that holds that such opinions are unacceptable in polite company. What this means is that, though multicultural and tolerant viewpoints may not be ubiquitous in the US, they are hegemonic. It sucks when folks say "I don't have anything against [insert ethnic or religious group], but..." But at least its better than Europe, where folks just say "there are a lot of n***** in New York, no?" By the way, the guy that said this is a colleague of mine from Northen Europe with a PhD in chemistry. And he is not unusual. Nor is intense and endemi racism confined to "the west." On a business trip to china there was a serious difference in the way I was treated, and my black colleague (also a chemist) was treated.
There is an American Taloban, in the form of folks even farther to the right than Pat Robertson. But they are fringe nutters who have no chance of ever realizing their twisted desires for domination- thier beliefs simply have no resonance in general American culture. Not even in the deepest South (the most ethnoculturally homogenous section of the US) where I am from, nor certainly in the urban North east. On my block, there are only two people born in the United States. Me and a guy from, I think, Minnesota. That right wing crap just doesn't play anymore, even in Peoria.
That doesn't mean that there aren't holdout areas of xenophobia and meanness. But the hegemonic culture has moved in a different direction, and once the holders of those outdated ideas die, then the ideas will likely be gone.
We have come a long way in a short time. My father can remember when he (living in rochester) would go visit family in Alabam in the 50s. They had, within living memory, seperate drinking fountains for seperate races. An interracial couple pretty much garaunteed a lynching.
When I go to the South on business, I see stuff like that all the time. Those are huge strides for 50 years. It's something to be proud of, and something that does give me a measure of hope for the possibility of Progress in the human condition (sorry to use that phrase).
I am not sure that the rest of the world is going that route, though.
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You are obviously not an idiot, sorry for that comment.
Post your pic's....
Jerry Lodriguss - Sports Photographer
Reporters sans frontières
The moderators will be taking a more active role to have a low tolerance policy on purely political debates. This is not a ban on photojournalistic posts, those are still encouraged. But when they decend into political debates, they will be actively pruned.
This thread will remain open for now, and discussion about photography is encouraged.
"Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions." - fortune cookie