So maybe this was covered already--I didn't read every post in this thread--but my understanding of CSS is that the whole point is that it can be overridden at will to make pages more accessible (that would be the "cascading" bit). The problem with html4 was that, if someone painstakingly crafted a webpage they intended to be viewed "just so", and this made it impossible for you to view, you couldn't do anything about it. CSS was supposed to fix this by allowing you, the viewer, to have some control over how you viewed things.
To that end, turning off CSS in Firefox is but a click-drag-release away (Opera goes a step further by allowing you to specify your own CSS to be used instead). Anyone visiting the '/iphone/' interface on a normal browser is clearly not interested in your CSS, so what's supposed to keep them from just turning it off period? I just don't understand it. To suddenly insist that CSS need be followed to the T or the page shouldn't even be served seems like 1) a step backwards to me, and 2) impossible to enforce. Any solution that smugmug comes up with will be as useless as the TSA, and will only serve as a monument to their willingness to do what their customers ask of them, regardless of whether it makes sense or not.
There are a couple issues at play here which I think are legitimate issues.
First, if you are a pro who has painstakingly customized and branded your site, you have every right to expect that branding to be preserved in all normal views of your site. It's not that people couldn't bypass it by doing weird things to the CSS (they can), it's just that all normal interfaces should be under their control and respect their desire to present their customized and branded site. The /iphone interface does not do that. It has no customer branding and has no ability to be customized and presents only a generic interface. As such, I understand why some pros would legitimately object.
Second, if you use various forms of image protection such as right-click protection, you expect them to be implemented across the different Smugmug interfaces including the iphone interface (which it is not).
Fair enough, though I would not consider the "/iphone" interface "normal". It's for devices with limited display capability; stripping the CSS in that context is exactly for what CSS was designed. Likewise, disabling right-clicks is a javascript setting which is not only annoying and easily circumvented (all browsers let you disable right-click-disabling, by the way), but not possible on devices that do not do javascript. I think their legitimate concerns are for a type of (ab)user that does not exist. However, if it makes them feel safer, then fine. Give it to them.
To the Smugmug team: I'm sure you have thought of these things already, but I just thought I would throw them out there; if they've already been mentioned, then consider it a vote in their favor. I think the proper solution to the problem is to either ease the creation of share groups. I can think of two ways to do it of the top of my head (neither of which may be easy/possible to implement, but how would I know without asking?): 1) make share groups something you can create/add-to in gallery presets, or 2) allow categories to be "unlisted", so that neither the category, nor any of the internal galleries are linked-to externally, but if you have the url to the category, you can get all the galleries within. The latter is a bit weak without adding keys to (unlisted) categories, but no worse, I think, than the other solutions being proposed (i.e., removing the '/iphone' interface).
Fair enough, though I would not consider the "/iphone" interface "normal". It's for devices with limited display capability; stripping the CSS in that context is exactly for what CSS was designed. Likewise, disabling right-clicks is a javascript setting which is not only annoying and easily circumvented (all browsers let you disable right-click-disabling, by the way), but not possible on devices that do not do javascript (e.g., iPhones, Blackberries, etc). I think their legitimate concerns are for a type of (ab)user that does not exist. However, if it makes them feel safer, then fine. Give it to them.
To the Smugmug team: I'm sure you have thought of these things already, but I just thought I would throw them out there; if they've already been mentioned, then consider it a vote in their favor. I think the proper solution to the problem is to either ease the creation of share groups. I can think of two ways to do it of the top of my head (neither of which may be easy/possible to implement, but how would I know without asking?): 1) make share groups something you can create/add-to in gallery presets, or 2) allow categories to be "unlisted", so that neither the category, nor any of the internal galleries are linked-to externally, but if you have the url to the category, you can get all the galleries within. The latter is a bit weak without adding keys to (unlisted) categories, but no worse, I think, than the other solutions being proposed (i.e., removing the '/iphone' interface).
Just one correction. The right-click protection is not accomplished via javascript. There is a notification that pops up with javascript, but one can disable javascript and the right-click protection still works.
Unlisted categories would a much loved feature, not only for the iphone interface, but would keep regular users from having to install javascript hacks to accomplish a simple task of hiding a category.
Just one correction. The right-click protection is not accomplished via javascript. There is a notification that pops up with javascript, but one can disable javascript and the right-click protection still works.
Sorry about that. I realize now that this is more sophisticated than the javascript nonsense. I can still pull the data from the browser cache or simply use a gallery downloader (and there are other, even simpler ways around it, that don't even involve the print-to-screen button), but yes, you are right, right-clicking gives me spacer.gif instead of the picture.
Since this is a feature that is advertised by Smugmug, I can understand why people are so upset, but realistically, there isn't anything reasonable that can be done about it. Removing the "/iphone" interface is security through obscurity, and it assumes that abusers are a fundamentally stupid and lazy lot (and yet, they are clever enough to use the "/iphone" url ... ). Still, as I said, if that is what people want, then I guess it would behoove Smugmug to provide it.
Unlisted categories would a much loved feature, not only for the iphone interface, but would keep regular users from having to install javascript hacks to accomplish a simple task of hiding a category.
When I went looking for galleries using right-click protection I noticed you suggested this over a year ago. I wonder how hard it would be to actually implement ...
Also, the iPhone does support javascript completely.
I was going to check that before posting, then forgot. I thought my wife's ipod Touch couldn't do javascript navigation, but I think I confused that with flash navigation. Not that either should be tolerated ...
When I went looking for galleries using right-click protection I noticed you suggested this over a year ago. I wonder how hard it would be to actually implement ...
Compared to a simple (site wide) /iphone disable its probably a fair bit of development.
As I have already said, its plainly obvious that SM is parsing the url and switching interfaces very early in the lookup.
Setting an option to enable/disable that step in the parsing should be extremely straightforward.
Given that the post was made on December 18th, 2008 I would guess there is no real serious commitment to doing this...
Au contraire, Baldy, {JT} and I are and have been kicking this around. It's not trivial but doable - there are just so many other things ahead of it. It's still on {JT}'s list to do, and Baldy stands by his post (which he made after talking to Onethumb). It's really just a case of spirit willing, flesh weak and so many other things being demanded of us by our customers.
But that was fairly obvious from Andy's repeated comments about that many Pros "button up' too much.
Even I am allowed to make personal statements "Don't shut out a single visitor or viewer, in my opinion."
Au contraire, Baldy, {JT} and I are and have been kicking this around. It's not trivial but doable - there are just so many other things ahead of it. It's still on {JT}'s list to do, and Baldy stands by his post (which he made after talking to Onethumb). It's really just a case of spirit willing, flesh weak and so many other things being demanded of us by our customers.
Sorry, but I don't buy that.
There is a special case set up for that one url (mynick.smugmug.com/iphone) that is parsed way ahead of anything else.
I've tried using vanity URLs, categories and albums to "force" users to a location of MY choosing, but none of it works because they never get to my site with that URL, only to the iphone interface. I haven't tried "Nice Names" yet, but I bet that won't work either.
If SM was serious about implementing this it would have been done with Easy Customizer, that would have been the obvious and logical time.
Even I am allowed to make personal statements "Don't shut out a single visitor or viewer, in my opinion."
Yes, you are allowed your opinion. The difference is that your opinion actually has real impact on where development resources are directed. We (users) can make suggestions, whine, bitch, complain, etc but we do not get a direct say in how and when things get implemented like you.
As for "not shutting out a single visitor or viewer", that's a fine sentiment. Except some of my customers (schools) don't wish to have students' faces out in the open for casual viewers. Hiding via CSS is "just enough" security for them that the /iphone interface defeats.
There is a special case set up for that one url (mynick.smugmug.com/iphone) that is parsed way ahead of anything else.
I've tried using vanity URLs, categories and albums to "force" users to a location of MY choosing, but none of it works because they never get to my site with that URL, only to the iphone interface. I haven't tried "Nice Names" yet, but I bet that won't work either.
If SM was serious about implementing this it would have been done with Easy Customizer, that would have been the obvious and logical time.
Yes, you are allowed your opinion. The difference is that your opinion actually has real impact on where development resources are directed. We (users) can make suggestions, whine, bitch, complain, etc but we do not get a direct say in how and when things get implemented like you.
As for "not shutting out a single visitor or viewer", that's a fine sentiment. Except some of my customers (schools) don't wish to have students' faces out in the open for casual viewers. Hiding via CSS is "just enough" security for them that the /iphone interface defeats.
Of course you get a voice. As I said, Jimmy, Baldy and I are kicking this around (my personal feelings about it aside...!)
I expect we'll enable this but I can't say when it'll be done. It's on the list to do, as I've said, and a Baldy's said. But you seem to think' we're not gonna do it
Hang in there, our spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.
The only way to 100% control the way your photos will be viewed: Don't put them online. If it's online, your photos can be viewed in all sorts of odd ways that you didn't intend.
But.. I wonder if there's a CSS element that we could hide to never show the iphone link.. That might actually do it! I'll see if I can make it go away and post the code if I can.
It won't prevent going to /iphone manually, but, it will simply not offer the option to anyone on an iPhone. That's probably good enough for most people.
It won't prevent going to /iphone manually, but, it will simply not offer the option to anyone on an iPhone. That's probably good enough for most people.
DrDavid - I appreciate the effort, but checking my site through a normal browser (not logged in) I don't see any option for the iphone (using both IE and FF).
Is it something (a link or button) you can only see when browsing with an iphone browser?
DrDavid - I appreciate the effort, but checking my site through a normal browser (not logged in) I don't see any option for the iphone (using both IE and FF).
Is it something (a link or button) you can only see when browsing with an iphone browser?
Yup.. If you're using an iphone, you will see a link to use the iphone interface. Using my code, it will NOT show to those users.
BTW, do you mean that you posted about this issue and you don't even know what iPhone users see when they go to your SmugMug site? O_o
The only way to 100% control the way your photos will be viewed: Don't put them online. If it's online, your photos can be viewed in all sorts of odd ways that you didn't intend.
Yup.. If you're using an iphone, you will see a link to use the iphone interface. Using my code, it will NOT show to those users.
BTW, do you mean that you posted about this issue and you don't even know what iPhone users see when they go to your SmugMug site? O_o
David
Correct. I had NO IDEA that not only has SmugMug made my photos available on an alternate interface (until this thread was started), but apparently they are advertising this half functional interface by modifying my main web pages.
IMHO the entire interface needs to be optional, but eliminating the advertisement about it on my main page(s) is at least a step in the right direction. I thank you for pointing it out and providing a solution.
Call me old fashioned, but my cell phone only makes/receives calls. If I'm not in front of a computer chances are its because I don't want to be "connected".
Correct. I had NO IDEA that not only has SmugMug made my photos available on an alternate interface (until this thread was started), but apparently they are advertising this half functional interface by modifying my main web pages.
IMHO the entire interface needs to be optional, but eliminating the advertisement about it on my main page(s) is at least a step in the right direction. I thank you for pointing it out and providing a solution.
Call me old fashioned, but my cell phone only makes/receives calls. If I'm not in front of a computer chances are its because I don't want to be "connected".
Hi, it's certainly not an advertisement - we don't do ads and never have - it's a convenience for those browsing on iPhones in iPhone Safari. I'm very sorry this feature has upset you so much Please, allow us to keep working at it.
Release notes are being written, but we've addressed this feature request
Go to your control panel, settings tab. You'll see an option to disable the iphone view complete, as well as ability to disable feeds completely, if you wish.
Thanks for your passionate advocacy, and your patience as well!
Release notes are being written, but we've addressed this feature request
Go to your control panel, settings tab. You'll see an option to disable the iphone view complete, as well as ability to disable feeds completely, if you wish.
Thanks for your passionate advocacy, and your patience as well!
Release notes are being written, but we've addressed this feature request
Go to your control panel, settings tab. You'll see an option to disable the iphone view complete, as well as ability to disable feeds completely, if you wish.
Thanks for your passionate advocacy, and your patience as well!
You're welcome! I meant it when I said thanks for your passion and patience. We may not always be as fast as you guys would like (for a zillion different reasons that I'm not gonna go into!) but we do get there, eventually
I clicked to disable the iPhone site, then went back to my homepage. When I came back to the control panel the radio button was set to "Enabled." Since there's no "save" button I can't tell if the option is actually being saved and the buttons reset or if it's not saving/working properly.
I'm using IE 8 on a Vista PC at work and I haven't got an iPhone to check. Not sure if any co-workers do, but maybe I'll ask around at lunch time...
I clicked to disable the iPhone site, then went back to my homepage. When I came back to the control panel the radio button was set to "Enabled." Since there's no "save" button I can't tell if the option is actually being saved and the buttons reset or if it's not saving/working properly.
I'm using IE 8 on a Vista PC at work and I haven't got an iPhone to check. Not sure if any co-workers do, but maybe I'll ask around at lunch time...
No need to have an iPhone.
In any browser just add /iphone to the end of your SM website url and you'll be re-directed to the iPhone interface.
I can't get this option to work.
I have set the button to disabled and then it resets itself to enabled. I have tried several times and it always goes back to enabled. Am I doing something wrong?
Never dwell on the past or dread the future, live life in the present, it's better that way.
I have set the button to disabled and then it resets itself to enabled. I have tried several times and it always goes back to enabled. Am I doing something wrong?
One of the Smug Mug Heroes set this and it now appears to be working and staying on disabled. Thanks
Never dwell on the past or dread the future, live life in the present, it's better that way.
I didn't even know there was the iphone option until I saw the option to disable it. Glad it's there as apparently right click protection is bypassed when going the iphone route (not that there aren't other ways around it, but why make it easy?).
What does the "feed" option do? Does it break the copy protection tools too?
I didn't even know there was the iphone option until I saw the option to disable it. Glad it's there as apparently right click protection is bypassed when going the iphone route (not that there aren't other ways around it, but why make it easy?).
What does the "feed" option do? Does it break the copy protection tools too?
swampler,
Feeds (RSS Feeds for example) are an automated way of for example getting updates from a specified source.
A visitor can subscribe to a feed and his browser will automatically check for updates and notify the user of them....
Actually with feeds many things can be done - such as using them as a datasource for independent slideshows or integration into other formats...
And yes, feeds also will circumnavigate the right-click protection... BUT ONLY FOR A THUMBNAIL Sized photo ... so that should be absolutely no problem.
I'm very glad SmugMug implemented the options to switch the iPhone Interface and feeds off... although I have chosen only to disable the iPhone interface.
The feeds will link back to my "normal" Website-gallery... and thus quite possibly will help with improving traffic... whilst the iPhone interface basically just destroys my customization with no automated way of linking back to the original website.
Also the iPhone interface does let the user easily download everything (in the maximum offered size I've set)... I am aware that the JS Based Right Click Protection is EASY To break... but it still works for 80% of the visitors.
Comments
First, if you are a pro who has painstakingly customized and branded your site, you have every right to expect that branding to be preserved in all normal views of your site. It's not that people couldn't bypass it by doing weird things to the CSS (they can), it's just that all normal interfaces should be under their control and respect their desire to present their customized and branded site. The /iphone interface does not do that. It has no customer branding and has no ability to be customized and presents only a generic interface. As such, I understand why some pros would legitimately object.
Second, if you use various forms of image protection such as right-click protection, you expect them to be implemented across the different Smugmug interfaces including the iphone interface (which it is not).
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To the Smugmug team: I'm sure you have thought of these things already, but I just thought I would throw them out there; if they've already been mentioned, then consider it a vote in their favor. I think the proper solution to the problem is to either ease the creation of share groups. I can think of two ways to do it of the top of my head (neither of which may be easy/possible to implement, but how would I know without asking?): 1) make share groups something you can create/add-to in gallery presets, or 2) allow categories to be "unlisted", so that neither the category, nor any of the internal galleries are linked-to externally, but if you have the url to the category, you can get all the galleries within. The latter is a bit weak without adding keys to (unlisted) categories, but no worse, I think, than the other solutions being proposed (i.e., removing the '/iphone' interface).
Unlisted categories would a much loved feature, not only for the iphone interface, but would keep regular users from having to install javascript hacks to accomplish a simple task of hiding a category.
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Since this is a feature that is advertised by Smugmug, I can understand why people are so upset, but realistically, there isn't anything reasonable that can be done about it. Removing the "/iphone" interface is security through obscurity, and it assumes that abusers are a fundamentally stupid and lazy lot (and yet, they are clever enough to use the "/iphone" url ... ). Still, as I said, if that is what people want, then I guess it would behoove Smugmug to provide it.
When I went looking for galleries using right-click protection I noticed you suggested this over a year ago. I wonder how hard it would be to actually implement ...
I was going to check that before posting, then forgot. I thought my wife's ipod Touch couldn't do javascript navigation, but I think I confused that with flash navigation. Not that either should be tolerated ...
As I have already said, its plainly obvious that SM is parsing the url and switching interfaces very early in the lookup.
Setting an option to enable/disable that step in the parsing should be extremely straightforward.
FWIW - almost a year ago Baldy said "We hope they're imminent, but they aren't through testing yet."
Given that the post was made on December 18th, 2008 I would guess there is no real serious commitment to doing this...
But that was fairly obvious from Andy's repeated comments about that many Pros "button up' too much.
From all evidence SM does not intend to do anything about this issue.
My original plea (from March 2008) still stands.
Offer all the gizmos, I'm sure many users like them. Hell, turn them on by default. But give ME the ability to turn them off if thats my wish.
Even I am allowed to make personal statements
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There is a special case set up for that one url (mynick.smugmug.com/iphone) that is parsed way ahead of anything else.
I've tried using vanity URLs, categories and albums to "force" users to a location of MY choosing, but none of it works because they never get to my site with that URL, only to the iphone interface. I haven't tried "Nice Names" yet, but I bet that won't work either.
If SM was serious about implementing this it would have been done with Easy Customizer, that would have been the obvious and logical time.
Yes, you are allowed your opinion. The difference is that your opinion actually has real impact on where development resources are directed. We (users) can make suggestions, whine, bitch, complain, etc but we do not get a direct say in how and when things get implemented like you.
As for "not shutting out a single visitor or viewer", that's a fine sentiment. Except some of my customers (schools) don't wish to have students' faces out in the open for casual viewers. Hiding via CSS is "just enough" security for them that the /iphone interface defeats.
I expect we'll enable this but I can't say when it'll be done. It's on the list to do, as I've said, and a Baldy's said. But you seem to think' we're not gonna do it
Hang in there, our spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.
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Meanwhile my pictures are available in a way i never wanted or requested.
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But.. I wonder if there's a CSS element that we could hide to never show the iphone link.. That might actually do it! I'll see if I can make it go away and post the code if I can.
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#breadCrumbTrail h1.foreground { display: none !important; }It won't prevent going to /iphone manually, but, it will simply not offer the option to anyone on an iPhone. That's probably good enough for most people.
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DrDavid - I appreciate the effort, but checking my site through a normal browser (not logged in) I don't see any option for the iphone (using both IE and FF).
Is it something (a link or button) you can only see when browsing with an iphone browser?
BTW, do you mean that you posted about this issue and you don't even know what iPhone users see when they go to your SmugMug site? O_o
David
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IMHO the entire interface needs to be optional, but eliminating the advertisement about it on my main page(s) is at least a step in the right direction. I thank you for pointing it out and providing a solution.
Call me old fashioned, but my cell phone only makes/receives calls. If I'm not in front of a computer chances are its because I don't want to be "connected".
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Go to your control panel, settings tab. You'll see an option to disable the iphone view complete, as well as ability to disable feeds completely, if you wish.
Thanks for your passionate advocacy, and your patience as well!
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Yay!
Thank you!
Mike
Andy, Thank You just doesn't seem to cover it...
And for the sorcerers.
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I clicked to disable the iPhone site, then went back to my homepage. When I came back to the control panel the radio button was set to "Enabled." Since there's no "save" button I can't tell if the option is actually being saved and the buttons reset or if it's not saving/working properly.
I'm using IE 8 on a Vista PC at work and I haven't got an iPhone to check. Not sure if any co-workers do, but maybe I'll ask around at lunch time...
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My Photos
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No need to have an iPhone.
In any browser just add /iphone to the end of your SM website url and you'll be re-directed to the iPhone interface.
Or at least you would if the option is enabled.
Thanks for looking, Andy!
The button appears to be staying on disabled now, so I'm not sure what I was seeing earlier...
mbellot, thanks for the tip!
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I have set the button to disabled and then it resets itself to enabled. I have tried several times and it always goes back to enabled.
One of the Smug Mug Heroes set this and it now appears to be working and staying on disabled. Thanks
What does the "feed" option do? Does it break the copy protection tools too?
swampler,
Feeds (RSS Feeds for example) are an automated way of for example getting updates from a specified source.
A visitor can subscribe to a feed and his browser will automatically check for updates and notify the user of them....
Actually with feeds many things can be done - such as using them as a datasource for independent slideshows or integration into other formats...
Check out this: http://gallery.dgentile.net/hack/feed.mg?Type=gallery&Data=9848247_dvtDx&format=rss200
(this is my own portfolio btw.)
And yes, feeds also will circumnavigate the right-click protection... BUT ONLY FOR A THUMBNAIL Sized photo ... so that should be absolutely no problem.
I'm very glad SmugMug implemented the options to switch the iPhone Interface and feeds off... although I have chosen only to disable the iPhone interface.
The feeds will link back to my "normal" Website-gallery... and thus quite possibly will help with improving traffic... whilst the iPhone interface basically just destroys my customization with no automated way of linking back to the original website.
Also the iPhone interface does let the user easily download everything (in the maximum offered size I've set)... I am aware that the JS Based Right Click Protection is EASY To break... but it still works for 80% of the visitors.
Daniel