It's not nonsense. The 7D isn't classified as a Canon pro body and stamping your feet won't change that fact.
I'm happy for the man, but lets be responsible with our knowledge and not spread misinformation.
Hey, i dont care if it is officially classified as pro or a non-pro camera. 7D is huge jump for me which makes me feel so good and pro when i use it. And i think these are personal preferences, for pros who shoot with large format cameras 1Ds series would be a piece of toy. And who shoots at high frame rate hasselblad would be a piece of junk. Anyways title of thread was just attraction nothing serious or attempt to draw people from 1D series to 7D :whew
Cheers
Thine is the beauty of light; mine is the song of fire. Thy beauty exalts the heart; my song inspires the soul. Allama Iqbal
@ 18MP, I believe it has more than enough resolving power to handle any editorial gig + large prints. Plus it has some weather sealing and a prof price-tag to match.
I say let the photos do the talking. The camera may not be as expensive as others but hey, a $5K+ 1Ds-body in the hands of an amateur makes it an amateur body. Just my $0.02.
I started this thread to avoid stealing the celebration from a previous thread where Awais announced his new Canon 7D.
Here we can discuss the relative merits and demerits of the Canon 7D regarding what qualifies a "pro" camera. I will allow a "spirited debate" but no personal attacks. Personal attacks will be deleted without warning (my decision and it will be final).
I think that even though Canon may not classify it as a pro camera, but many people will make money with one.
The picture quality that comes from this camera, with the right person using it, will be in every way, pro quality.
Awais is one of those people that can make any camera sing, this camera will just make hitting the high notes a bit easier.:D
This is the 2010 Canon Professional Products Guide, it just came in my CPS Renewal package.
Anyone that thinks a camera will make them be 'Pro' is only a "pro" not a Professional. I've shot and sold many photos taken with everything from $300 P&S to $20,000 Hassy and everything in between.
Congrats on your 7D. Awais, your in the Pro Club because your pictures are great! I have a 7D too but I'm not in the Pro Club because my pictures can't begin to match yours or the other members of the Pro Club.
Years and years ago there was a quarterly glossy magazine devoted to format cameras (I think Linhoff was somehow involved with it). On rare occasions they would publish an image from a camera they referred to as a "Hasselblad snapshot camera". I guess they figured the only people using Hasselblads were tourists catching pictures of their spouses holding up the leaning town of Pisa.
So as far as I am concerned any camera you were using would be a Pro camera.
Hey, i dont care if it is officially classified as pro or a non-pro camera. 7D is huge jump for me which makes me feel so good and pro when i use it. And i think these are personal preferences, for pros who shoot with large format cameras 1Ds series would be a piece of toy. And who shoots at high frame rate hasselblad would be a piece of junk. Anyways title of thread was just attraction nothing serious or attempt to draw people from 1D series to 7D :whew
I think that whether the manufacturer classifies a camera as pro or not, it is the user that defines the term. There is no reason an XSi couldn't be called a 'Pro' body if the user was very skilled. Similarly, if someone with a lot of money buys a 1D Mark IV and uses it like a point and shoot, it is no more 'Pro' than a point and shoot.
In this case, considering the quality of Awais's photography, this camera is 'Pro'.
The camera does not define quality images
I have been following this discussion a little bit and find it humorous that people worry about it.
The camera doesn't matter, it is the person operating it.
For various press releases & audio industry articles I have supplied pictures. Some of these pictures were taken with point and shoot some with DSLR, none of them are "pro" according to camera classifications. Being that previously my employer's PR firm would hire a local professional photographer to get some of these pictures; I guess one could interpret that to mean that I am on par with a pro photographer. But according to some my equipment isn't; but the images captured are just as relevant. However they are "published" images, no one cares if they are shot with a $20K camera or a $200 camera.
The critical issue is whether or not the pictures are complimentary to the article or press release. The fact that I understand the subject matter and can capture it appropriately is what matters not the camera. I am able to capture the images that people want to see of the projects I am involved with.
The latest thread of the "Pro body?" debate started when someone posted the YouTube clip of wedding photographers being sued on Judge Joe Brown, where the judge decides they're not pros in part because they shoot weddings with a Canon Rebel. (Although they also used a kit lens, and when the judge asked how fast their other zoom was, she did not know...Guilty!!)
This led to commentary across the photo blogosphere. Popular wedding photo blogger David Ziser wrote a blog entry agreeing that the Rebel is not a pro body:
So to those who cheered the use on the Rebel as a wedding camera, I suggest you think twice before booking you next wedding. I suggest you ask yourself just how much of a real "pro" you are.
He got such a firestorm of comments from his loyal readers that he had to clarify his view in a later post. He agreed that it is the photographer, not the camera, that determines the image quality of the image. But that wasn't what he was arguing. He said you need a body with build quality that will hold up, wedding after wedding. In other words, sometimes "it's the person, not the camera" is not enough. Ziser was pointing out that sometimes, it is the camera, when the camera has the possibility of being the weak link when a specific pro requirement (in this case durability) is a value.
As a Rebel shooter until recently, I was disappointed with his original post, but I ultimately agreed with him after he clarified the usage context of the camera. My point in bringing that up is that the "pro body" debate will always be unclear, including in this thread, unless we understand exactly where each debater is coming from, what the photographer's purpose and work is, because professional requirements are not uniform. The Rebel is capable of being a professional stock photo or fine art camera, but arguably not a professional wedding, sports, or photojournalist camera, in terms of getting the job done reliably for a year or more.
If you are going to claim that a particular body is or is not pro, you'll need to state the type of photography you are thinking of, because chances are, your claim will not be uniform across all of photography.
The 7D? Oh, come on. In terms of speed, autofocus, low light capability, weather sealing/build quality, video quality, etc. the only difference between the 7D and a (assumed to be accepted by all as "pro") 5D is the size of the sensor. And for many applications the smaller sensor is an advantage. Granted, by what I wrote earlier, I'm sure someone involved in an edge-case niche of photography could concoct a valid way to define the 7D a non-pro body for their area of photography. And that's fine. But it seems difficult to define the 7D as "non-pro" in general.
There is no question that the 7D will be a pro camera in Awais' hands.
This is the 2010 Canon Professional Products Guide, it just came in my CPS Renewal package.
Anyone that thinks a camera will make them be 'Pro' is only a "pro" not a Professional. I've shot and sold many photos taken with everything from $300 P&S to $20,000 Hassy and everything in between.
Surely a 'PRO' camera is also only a 'PRO' camera whilst 'PRO's are prepared to use it.
So 10 years from now the 1Ds MkIV will unlikely be considered a true 'PRO' camera cos they'll have all moved on.
So it doesn't really matter, it's all marketing anyway. I imagine that fella Bresson could have done wonders with a 7D... he didn't do THAT bad with the gear he had!
A lot of the "Pro", "Prosumer", "Professional", "Consumer", "Entry Level" camera debate harkens back to film cameras, and specific to the Canon line there was considerable debate whether the Canon "3" series cameras were "professional". Everyone agreed that the Canon "1" series was professional level, but an "EOS-3" was somewhat confusing (although a Canon 1V versus 1N debate is even more amusing.)
Nikon has likewise had an interesting naming scheme that makes camera classification interesting. I haven't even really figured out the Sony numbering, or Pentax naming. Olympus seems fairly rational but even they skip numbers now and again. (Trying to pick on everyone. )
I am guilty of comparing new cameras to the "professional" versions and I generally mean "the top of the line" which are the heaviest, most robust and most feature targeted of any camera line. Notice I said "feature targeted" and not "feature rich" because often the top tier cameras have reduced feature sets compared to the lesser tier cameras.
Things like in-camera flash are usually missing from the most expensive of a camera line, partly to improve the weather resistance of those cameras.
I readily agree that virtually "any camera" that is used to provide professional results might be considered situationally "professional", but I understand how calling a camera "professional" might seem to imply the best of a line of cameras.
Then there is the term "pro", which is (recently) either a contraction of "professional" or "prosumer" depending on context (and not always clear). (Of course "pro" can also mean that you are 'for' something or it can mean 'before' or 'in place of' in a complete digression.) So calling a camera or person "pro" may not always strictly mean "professional".
Such is our language; confusing and even infuriating at times.
So just where was I headed with all of this? I'll be darned if i know.
While defining professional equipment, i think country and economy differences also play a role. Like many of you prefer 5Dmk2 for normal use, i am starting to look for a clean 5D classic that will serve me as a backup body and allow me to shoot ultra wide angle shots with 17-40L, people change lenses i will change bodies and use one lens
Thine is the beauty of light; mine is the song of fire. Thy beauty exalts the heart; my song inspires the soul. Allama Iqbal
Technically speaking only the 1-series are pro cameras I think.
But Canon puts the 1D series, 5D series, and 7D all on the same professional level. They are the only models that can be used to join the top level membership in Canon Professional Services.
This is the 2010 Canon Professional Products Guide, it just came in my CPS Renewal package.
Anyone that thinks a camera will make them be 'Pro' is only a "pro" not a Professional. I've shot and sold many photos taken with everything from $300 P&S to $20,000 Hassy and everything in between.
Personally I think the word "professional" in a camera description can describe a few things, from high quality images that are usually needed by professionals or features used by professionals. For example, I would consider any Canon 1d series as a professional camera, not because of resolution but for the build quality and proven design that works in the field.
Considering the 7D, I also would call this a professional camera but not for the build (which is very close) but more so that it can work in the environment as any other 1d for resolution and speed. It's not to say that the 7D is any less of a camera, it's not, but in some cases a working pro will need the most armored dust proof camera. If I had an assignment in Iraq, I would take the most toughest camera made, even if it's less FPS or resolution.
Just on the topic of what type camera should a pro shoot, I used to think that only pros would shoot with X camera, people like me would shoot with Y camera. This theory was blown out of the water when I saw some of the early photos by Andy with his Sony 717, and another Dgrin member with his 717 photos mostly of portraits.
To see this, search Flickr for any intro level DSLR and I think you'll be amazed at the images that turn up.
You know what guys, I'm willing to be a test-dummy and 'test' out someone's 7D and a 1DsMk3 for the next few years. I'll let know you how well it stands up against each other. I know I know.. its going to be a lot of work, but I'm willing to sacrifice my time to conclude this once and for all. Just PM me what you want to donate.. I mean test out and I'll gladly do it for you.
Hey peoples....get on the same page with the discussion. We're not debating the merits of photographers skills as has been brought up ad naseum, we're debating terminology of what is deemed a pro body by Canon.....and I mean a pro body...not a back up for pro bodies.
In Australia a 7D is *NOT* considered a pro body and not eligible for CPS.
Hey peoples....get on the same page with the discussion. We're not debating the merits of photographers skills as has been brought up ad naseum, we're debating terminology of what is deemed a pro body by Canon.....and I mean a pro body...not a back up for pro bodies.
In Australia a 7D is *NOT* considered a pro body and not eligible for CPS.
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To be eligible for membership of CPS, you need to:
Be a full-time professional photographer *
Own/use and register with CPS two or more eligible Canon EOS professional bodies ** and three or more L-series EF lenses which have been purchased from an authorised Canon Professional Dealer in Australia or New Zealand.
* A full-time photographer is defined as someone who generates the majority of their income from photography and who operates through a registered business.
** Currently the eligible models are: EOS-1Ds Mark III, EOS-1Ds Mark II, EOS-1Ds, EOS-1D Mark III, EOS-1D Mark IIN, EOS-1D Mark II, EOS-1D, EOS-1V.
EOS-5D bodies may be registered, but benefits for this model will be limited to priority serving. A minimum of at least one EOS-1 series model is required to register an EOS-5D
If you fulfil these criteria and wish to apply for CPS membership
Your information should be forwarded to CPS for approval. You will be contacted via email with confirmation of the success of your application. If successful, you will be issued a CPS membership number and granted access to CPS benefits.
Comments
It's not nonsense. The 7D isn't classified as a Canon pro body and stamping your feet won't change that fact.
I'm happy for the man, but lets be responsible with our knowledge and not spread misinformation.
Bear
Some of my photos on Flickr
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Hey, i dont care if it is officially classified as pro or a non-pro camera. 7D is huge jump for me which makes me feel so good and pro when i use it. And i think these are personal preferences, for pros who shoot with large format cameras 1Ds series would be a piece of toy. And who shoots at high frame rate hasselblad would be a piece of junk. Anyways title of thread was just attraction nothing serious or attempt to draw people from 1D series to 7D :whew
Cheers
My Gallery
Seems to me you're the one stomping your feet, like it's a little too important to you that noone gets uppity.
Malte
If thats your assumption...thats a fail.
Bear
Some of my photos on Flickr
My Facebook
I say let the photos do the talking. The camera may not be as expensive as others but hey, a $5K+ 1Ds-body in the hands of an amateur makes it an amateur body. Just my $0.02.
Here we can discuss the relative merits and demerits of the Canon 7D regarding what qualifies a "pro" camera. I will allow a "spirited debate" but no personal attacks. Personal attacks will be deleted without warning (my decision and it will be final).
Have fun but keep the discussion civil.
Thanks,
Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
The picture quality that comes from this camera, with the right person using it, will be in every way, pro quality.
Awais is one of those people that can make any camera sing, this camera will just make hitting the high notes a bit easier.:D
Basking in the shadows of yesterday's triumphs'.
This is the 2010 Canon Professional Products Guide, it just came in my CPS Renewal package.
Anyone that thinks a camera will make them be 'Pro' is only a "pro" not a Professional. I've shot and sold many photos taken with everything from $300 P&S to $20,000 Hassy and everything in between.
It's not the camera.
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Years and years ago there was a quarterly glossy magazine devoted to format cameras (I think Linhoff was somehow involved with it). On rare occasions they would publish an image from a camera they referred to as a "Hasselblad snapshot camera". I guess they figured the only people using Hasselblads were tourists catching pictures of their spouses holding up the leaning town of Pisa.
So as far as I am concerned any camera you were using would be a Pro camera.
http://www.danalphotos.com
http://www.pluralsight.com
http://twitter.com/d114
In this case, considering the quality of Awais's photography, this camera is 'Pro'.
As far as I can determine this in one really nice camera.
Here is a photo of a 7D in Antarctica. I wouldn't want to try this with my camera.
Sam
I have been following this discussion a little bit and find it humorous that people worry about it.
The camera doesn't matter, it is the person operating it.
For various press releases & audio industry articles I have supplied pictures. Some of these pictures were taken with point and shoot some with DSLR, none of them are "pro" according to camera classifications. Being that previously my employer's PR firm would hire a local professional photographer to get some of these pictures; I guess one could interpret that to mean that I am on par with a pro photographer. But according to some my equipment isn't; but the images captured are just as relevant. However they are "published" images, no one cares if they are shot with a $20K camera or a $200 camera.
The critical issue is whether or not the pictures are complimentary to the article or press release. The fact that I understand the subject matter and can capture it appropriately is what matters not the camera. I am able to capture the images that people want to see of the projects I am involved with.
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This led to commentary across the photo blogosphere. Popular wedding photo blogger David Ziser wrote a blog entry agreeing that the Rebel is not a pro body: He got such a firestorm of comments from his loyal readers that he had to clarify his view in a later post. He agreed that it is the photographer, not the camera, that determines the image quality of the image. But that wasn't what he was arguing. He said you need a body with build quality that will hold up, wedding after wedding. In other words, sometimes "it's the person, not the camera" is not enough. Ziser was pointing out that sometimes, it is the camera, when the camera has the possibility of being the weak link when a specific pro requirement (in this case durability) is a value.
As a Rebel shooter until recently, I was disappointed with his original post, but I ultimately agreed with him after he clarified the usage context of the camera. My point in bringing that up is that the "pro body" debate will always be unclear, including in this thread, unless we understand exactly where each debater is coming from, what the photographer's purpose and work is, because professional requirements are not uniform. The Rebel is capable of being a professional stock photo or fine art camera, but arguably not a professional wedding, sports, or photojournalist camera, in terms of getting the job done reliably for a year or more.
If you are going to claim that a particular body is or is not pro, you'll need to state the type of photography you are thinking of, because chances are, your claim will not be uniform across all of photography.
The 7D? Oh, come on. In terms of speed, autofocus, low light capability, weather sealing/build quality, video quality, etc. the only difference between the 7D and a (assumed to be accepted by all as "pro") 5D is the size of the sensor. And for many applications the smaller sensor is an advantage. Granted, by what I wrote earlier, I'm sure someone involved in an edge-case niche of photography could concoct a valid way to define the 7D a non-pro body for their area of photography. And that's fine. But it seems difficult to define the 7D as "non-pro" in general.
There is no question that the 7D will be a pro camera in Awais' hands.
fotoworx, rebuttal?
Malte
So 10 years from now the 1Ds MkIV will unlikely be considered a true 'PRO' camera cos they'll have all moved on.
So it doesn't really matter, it's all marketing anyway. I imagine that fella Bresson could have done wonders with a 7D... he didn't do THAT bad with the gear he had!
Nikon D200, SB-600, 105mm Micro VR, 50mm 1.8, 18-70mm
http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/product/cameras/eos7d.do
The Canon 7D featured on the Canon Professional Network site...
(OK, I'll let it go now.
Malte
Nikon has likewise had an interesting naming scheme that makes camera classification interesting. I haven't even really figured out the Sony numbering, or Pentax naming. Olympus seems fairly rational but even they skip numbers now and again. (Trying to pick on everyone.
I am guilty of comparing new cameras to the "professional" versions and I generally mean "the top of the line" which are the heaviest, most robust and most feature targeted of any camera line. Notice I said "feature targeted" and not "feature rich" because often the top tier cameras have reduced feature sets compared to the lesser tier cameras.
Things like in-camera flash are usually missing from the most expensive of a camera line, partly to improve the weather resistance of those cameras.
I readily agree that virtually "any camera" that is used to provide professional results might be considered situationally "professional", but I understand how calling a camera "professional" might seem to imply the best of a line of cameras.
Then there is the term "pro", which is (recently) either a contraction of "professional" or "prosumer" depending on context (and not always clear). (Of course "pro" can also mean that you are 'for' something or it can mean 'before' or 'in place of' in a complete digression.) So calling a camera or person "pro" may not always strictly mean "professional".
Such is our language; confusing and even infuriating at times.
So just where was I headed with all of this? I'll be darned if i know.
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But Canon puts the 1D series, 5D series, and 7D all on the same professional level. They are the only models that can be used to join the top level membership in Canon Professional Services.
http://www.danalphotos.com
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It's YOU that makes the camera Professional!!
I have a semi-professional camera and I'm making it look like a complete idiot :ivar
Nikon D200, SB-600, 105mm Micro VR, 50mm 1.8, 18-70mm
Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
I love your expression!
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Nice one Andy.
Personally I think the word "professional" in a camera description can describe a few things, from high quality images that are usually needed by professionals or features used by professionals. For example, I would consider any Canon 1d series as a professional camera, not because of resolution but for the build quality and proven design that works in the field.
Considering the 7D, I also would call this a professional camera but not for the build (which is very close) but more so that it can work in the environment as any other 1d for resolution and speed. It's not to say that the 7D is any less of a camera, it's not, but in some cases a working pro will need the most armored dust proof camera. If I had an assignment in Iraq, I would take the most toughest camera made, even if it's less FPS or resolution.
Just on the topic of what type camera should a pro shoot, I used to think that only pros would shoot with X camera, people like me would shoot with Y camera. This theory was blown out of the water when I saw some of the early photos by Andy with his Sony 717, and another Dgrin member with his 717 photos mostly of portraits.
To see this, search Flickr for any intro level DSLR and I think you'll be amazed at the images that turn up.
In Australia a 7D is *NOT* considered a pro body and not eligible for CPS.
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Really in America, it is. Why the discord?
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To be eligible for membership of CPS, you need to:
- Be a full-time professional photographer *
- Own/use and register with CPS two or more eligible Canon EOS professional bodies ** and three or more L-series EF lenses which have been purchased from an authorised Canon Professional Dealer in Australia or New Zealand.
* A full-time photographer is defined as someone who generates the majority of their income from photography and who operates through a registered business.** Currently the eligible models are: EOS-1Ds Mark III, EOS-1Ds Mark II, EOS-1Ds, EOS-1D Mark III, EOS-1D Mark IIN, EOS-1D Mark II, EOS-1D, EOS-1V.
EOS-5D bodies may be registered, but benefits for this model will be limited to priority serving. A minimum of at least one EOS-1 series model is required to register an EOS-5D
If you fulfil these criteria and wish to apply for CPS membership
Your information should be forwarded to CPS for approval. You will be contacted via email with confirmation of the success of your application. If successful, you will be issued a CPS membership number and granted access to CPS benefits.
Bear
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