Is the Canon 7D a "Pro" camera?

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  • studio1972studio1972 Registered Users Posts: 249 Major grins
    edited April 5, 2010
    fotoworx wrote:
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    To be eligible for membership of CPS, you need to:
    • Be a full-time professional photographer *
    • Own/use and register with CPS two or more eligible Canon EOS professional bodies ** and three or more L-series EF lenses which have been purchased from an authorised Canon Professional Dealer in Australia or New Zealand.
    * A full-time photographer is defined as someone who generates the majority of their income from photography and who operates through a registered business.
    ** Currently the eligible models are: EOS-1Ds Mark III, EOS-1Ds Mark II, EOS-1Ds, EOS-1D Mark III, EOS-1D Mark IIN, EOS-1D Mark II, EOS-1D, EOS-1V.
    EOS-5D bodies may be registered, but benefits for this model will be limited to priority serving. A minimum of at least one EOS-1 series model is required to register an EOS-5D
    If you fulfil these criteria and wish to apply for CPS membership
    Your information should be forwarded to CPS for approval. You will be contacted via email with confirmation of the success of your application. If successful, you will be issued a CPS membership number and granted access to CPS benefits.

    Since when has eligibility for CPS been a requirement for a camera to be used professionally?
  • ziggy53ziggy53 Super Moderators Posts: 24,119 moderator
    edited April 5, 2010
    fotoworx wrote:
    Hey peoples....get on the same page with the discussion. We're not debating the merits of photographers skills as has been brought up ad naseum, we're debating terminology of what is deemed a pro body by Canon.....and I mean a pro body...not a back up for pro bodies.
    ...

    I suggest that "we" do not agree (ad nauseum and all).
    fotoworx wrote:
    ... In Australia a 7D is *NOT* considered a pro body and not eligible for CPS.

    Are you meaning to suggest that CPS Australia should set the criteria for what constitutes a "professional" Canon camera? It has already been demonstrated that at least Canon USA considers the 7D as professional.

    Who decides?

    I hope no one thinks this is an absolutely definitive discussion because obviously there is disparity from Canon corporate. If they can't agree I'm not sure how we can all agree. Acceptance and tolerance is probably the better strategy.
    ziggy53
    Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
  • studio1972studio1972 Registered Users Posts: 249 Major grins
    edited April 5, 2010
    ziggy53 wrote:
    Are you meaning to suggest that CPS Australia should set the criteria for what constitutes a "professional" Canon camera? It has already been demonstrated that at least Canon USA considers the 7D as professional.

    Not to mention that Canon have obviously got a major vested interest in getting you to buy the most expensive camera possible!
  • TerrenceTerrence Registered Users Posts: 477 Major grins
    edited April 5, 2010
    At the end of the day, does it really matter that some arbitrary group of people decide the 7D is or is not deemed a pro body? Awais is simply happy about his new camera and that he can get back to making great images and his expression of joy gets devolved into yet another contest over terminology.

    Go out there and keep on shooting Awais.
    Terrence

    My photos

    "The future is an illusion, but a damned handy one." - David Allen
  • EOS_JDEOS_JD Registered Users Posts: 68 Big grins
    edited April 5, 2010
    I've not read everything here but the 7D is indeed classed as a Pro body by Canon.

    The new CPS levels of entry mean you need 2 bodies of 7D and above if you want their top line membership!

    It may be the entry level pro body but it still is.

    Regards
    Jim

    Edit - I see some argument on this point too - If canon can't decide who are we to :) It's obviously just not a pro body in Australia :)
  • Bear DaleBear Dale Registered Users Posts: 71 Big grins
    edited April 5, 2010
    ziggy53 wrote:
    Are you meaning to suggest that CPS Australia should set the criteria for what constitutes a "professional" Canon camera? It has already been demonstrated that at least Canon USA considers the 7D as professional.


    No, not at all. After seeing the requirements for CPS in the U.S, I'd like to see Canon Australia relax the requirements.
    Cheers,
    Bear

    Some of my photos on Flickr
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  • jeffreaux2jeffreaux2 Registered Users Posts: 4,762 Major grins
    edited April 5, 2010
    fotoworx wrote:
    It's not nonsense. The 7D isn't classified as a Canon pro body and stamping your feet won't change that fact.

    I'm happy for the man, but lets be responsible with our knowledge and not spread misinformation.


    My opinion....since we all have one!!!:D


    A "pro camera", or the label of such is pure nonsense when attatched to any camera body. Cameras don't take photographs....people do....therefore ANY camera in the hands of someone skilled (and talented) enough to shoot a pro caliber image is good enough to be a "pro camera".

    Does resolution, sensor size, or whether or not the camera is made of magnesium truely matter when it comes to the finished image and it's artistic merit?

    We've all seen magnificent images from cameras as intricate as a Hasselblad Digital....or as simple as a Holga. An incompetent photographer will still be incompetent reguardless of what he shoots with. A pro level shooter will create stunning images with either.deal.gif

    ....and who really cares anyway.....shoot what you brung...
  • Bear DaleBear Dale Registered Users Posts: 71 Big grins
    edited April 5, 2010
    jeffreaux2 wrote:
    A "pro camera", or the label of such is pure nonsense when attatched to any camera body. Cameras don't take photographs....people do....therefore ANY camera in the hands of someone skilled (and talented) enough to shoot a pro caliber image is good enough to be a "pro camera".

    No one would argue the above, but you're missing the point of the thread. Canon (at least Canon Australia) doesn't rate the 7D as a professional bodied camera. They're not saying (nobody is) you can't take a professional image with it, they're saying it's not built to the standard of there top of the line professional bodies with top notch build quality.

    I have a 5DMKII and Canon Australia don't rate the EOS 5DMKII as a pro body.
    Cheers,
    Bear

    Some of my photos on Flickr
    My Facebook
  • waygard33waygard33 Registered Users Posts: 104 Major grins
    edited April 5, 2010
    There has to be some sort of label to differentiate the levels of equipment. Canon apparently chose 'Pro' to label their top of the line equipment.

    If not that, what would you use?.....Good / Better / Best ? Works for vacuums.

    Attaching a photographer to the equipment doesn't change the equipment label.

    Wayne G in Oregon - The Pro state. Not sure why they let me in???:ivar
  • davevdavev Registered Users Posts: 3,118 Major grins
    edited April 5, 2010
    fotoworx wrote:
    No one would argue the above, but you're missing the point of the thread. Canon (at least Canon Australia) doesn't rate the 7D as a professional bodied camera. They're not saying (nobody is) you can't take a professional image with it, they're saying it's not built to the standard of there top of the line professional bodies with top notch build quality.

    I have a 5DMKII and Canon Australia don't rate the EOS 5DMKII as a pro body.

    fotoworx, just about everyone in this thread feels like the 7D is a pro camera, you're the most vocal saying it isn't.
    Why is it not a pro camera to you? Build? Weather seals? Image? Features? Sensor size? Exactly where does it lack that label in your mind.

    If it's build, the 7D is pretty tough.
    If it's weather proofing, a P&S that's water proof is more of a pro camera than any DSLR.
    If it's sensor size, only full framers should be in the group.
    If it's features, the newest camera will normally be above last years model.
    If it's image quality, you have to include the photographer in the equation.

    Or are we just going with what a company labels it. (even though they aren't consistent from zone to zone)
    dave.

    Basking in the shadows of yesterday's triumphs'.
  • Bear DaleBear Dale Registered Users Posts: 71 Big grins
    edited April 6, 2010
    davev wrote:
    fotoworx, just about everyone in this thread feels like the 7D is a pro camera, you're the most vocal saying it isn't.
    Why is it not a pro camera to you? Build? Weather seals? Image? Features? Sensor size? Exactly where does it lack that label in your mind.

    If it's build, the 7D is pretty tough.
    If it's weather proofing, a P&S that's water proof is more of a pro camera than any DSLR.
    If it's sensor size, only full framers should be in the group.
    If it's features, the newest camera will normally be above last years model.
    If it's image quality, you have to include the photographer in the equation.

    Or are we just going with what a company labels it. (even though they aren't consistent from zone to zone)


    The company that makes the darn thing doesn't classify it as a professional body.
    Cheers,
    Bear

    Some of my photos on Flickr
    My Facebook
  • EclipsedEclipsed Registered Users Posts: 360 Major grins
    edited April 6, 2010
    In most places it is classified as a professional body. Why don't you get that? headscratch.gif I've also seen plenty of professionals that use this body heavily.
  • MalteMalte Registered Users Posts: 1,181 Major grins
    edited April 6, 2010
    fotoworx wrote:
    The company that makes the darn thing doesn't classify it as a professional body.

    We've found that Canon does classify the 7D as "Pro" in the US and Europe, pretty big markets. It could be that since the 7D is a newish camera, the policy hasn't rolled out to all makets yet, for whatever reason. ne_nau.gif

    Malte
  • Bear DaleBear Dale Registered Users Posts: 71 Big grins
    edited April 6, 2010
    Malte wrote:
    We've found that Canon does classify the 7D as "Pro" in the US and Europe, pretty big markets. It could be that since the 7D is a newish camera, the policy hasn't rolled out to all makets yet, for whatever reason. ne_nau.gif

    Malte

    Well Canon have made the 5D and the 5DMKII for quite some time haven't they. Well if you read what I've posted from Canon Australia CPS application those bodies aren't classified as pro bodies by Canon.

    Read any magazine review of the 7D and 5DMKII, no reviewer will class either body as a professional body.

    Sorry guys, Canon reserves that for the 1D series.
    Cheers,
    Bear

    Some of my photos on Flickr
    My Facebook
  • Bear DaleBear Dale Registered Users Posts: 71 Big grins
    edited April 6, 2010
    Eclipsed wrote:
    In most places it is classified as a professional body. Why don't you get that? headscratch.gif I've also seen plenty of professionals that use this body heavily.

    What is it that you don't get? So what if professionals are using it. Whats that got to do with anything?
    Cheers,
    Bear

    Some of my photos on Flickr
    My Facebook
  • studio1972studio1972 Registered Users Posts: 249 Major grins
    edited April 6, 2010
    fotoworx wrote:
    Well Canon have made the 5D and the 5DMKII for quite some time haven't they. Well if you read what I've posted from Canon Australia CPS application those bodies aren't classified as pro bodies by Canon.

    Read any magazine review of the 7D and 5DMKII, no reviewer will class either body as a professional body.

    Sorry guys, Canon reserves that for the 1D series.

    By your argument the 5D MkII isn't a pro camera. But in reality we all know that one of the biggest markets for that camera is pro wedding photographers. It's the standard camera for that type of work, and in some ways superior to the 1dsmkIII.

    Canon make the camera with professional photographers in mind, and they even lend it to some of the worlds top pros during testing. They may not call it a pro camera in their marketing, but that doesn't mean it isn't a pro camera or it doesn't have the features that a pro photographer requires.

    That's why most photographers would call the 5d a pro camera, no matter what Canon says. Canon may reserve that term for the 1d and 1ds for obvious marketing reasons, but it doesn't mean we can't call the 5d or 7d a pro camera if we want to.
  • Bear DaleBear Dale Registered Users Posts: 71 Big grins
    edited April 6, 2010
    studio1972 wrote:
    By your argument the 5D MkII isn't a pro camera.

    No, not my argument at all. Don't shoot the messenger mate.


    And see.....you say it yourself -
    They may not call it a pro camera in their marketing
    Cheers,
    Bear

    Some of my photos on Flickr
    My Facebook
  • Moogle PepperMoogle Pepper Registered Users Posts: 2,950 Major grins
    edited April 6, 2010
    umm.. people, Fotoworx is arguing more on the lines that Canon Australia doesn't believe that either the 7D or the 5D2 are professional grade bodies to be part of their CPA (or some other) thing. The discrepancies is among the corporate locations, US/EU/Australia, etc. Not Fotoworx.
    Food & Culture.
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  • chrisjohnsonchrisjohnson Registered Users Posts: 772 Major grins
    edited April 6, 2010
    Cps
    Whatever CPS is I don't like the sound of it.

    Smugmug and Dgrin are great because an enthusiastic amateur like myself can listen to the professionals. We do not get too much noise from the glibly opinionated or from the fan-boys.

    I would hate to see the real pros cut themselves off from the rest of the community although I do recognize that pros have distinctly different concerns. For example, chatting with a real pro at a recent event I admired his top-of-the-line f2.8 70-200mm Canon white L lens. He said, "not bad at all. I have to buy a new one every 2-3 years when they start falling apart." The other lens was a red ringer for the wider angles, he with two EOS 1 slung around his neck. For me either lens would be a once-in-a-lifetime purchase and kept in a velvet box. There is a big difference.

    There is a also a big difference in pros when you define a pro broadly to include anyone who has ever sold a photo. Then I would be a pro - and I don't see myself that way at all. Completely different is the guy who is fully booked and shooting hundreds of pictures a day in all weathers and all lights.

    I hope we keep the community spirit here and stop classifying people according to the equipment they have. Some of my favourite images date from 30 years ago, long before dslr was even imagined. The image is the thing. Can you be a top photographer with a 10D or Rebel, of course you can. Can you afford the best possible kit and amortize over 3 years, well you better start looking at what you get paid for a gig.

    So is the 7D a pro camera? Quite possibly in the right hands and on the right day. But so is a G11. I know if I was a real pro with a top income and a full book, I would be looking to the best possible kit because my return on investment per hours invested would be greater due to my being more likely to shoot reliably on appointment whatever the lighting and whatever the weather. Can a real pro learn from an enthusiastic amateur - I would hope so, although perhaps not from me.
  • ivarivar Registered Users Posts: 8,395 Major grins
    edited April 6, 2010
    umm.. people, Fotoworx is arguing more on the lines that Canon Australia doesn't believe that either the 7D or the 5D2 are professional grade bodies to be part of their CPA (or some other) thing. The discrepancies is among the corporate locations, US/EU/Australia, etc. Not Fotoworx.
    That's probably because, as far as I know, there is no universal definition of 'pro camera'. What may be 'pro' to me, is different from how you see it.



    One buys and uses a camera because it fits his or her needs. Why would someone care if their/a camera is labeled pro or not? headscratch.gif
  • Moogle PepperMoogle Pepper Registered Users Posts: 2,950 Major grins
    edited April 6, 2010
    ivar wrote:
    That's probably because, as far as I know, there is no universal definition of 'pro camera'. What may be 'pro' to me, is different from how you see it.



    One buys and uses a camera because it fits his or her needs. Why would someone care if their/a camera is labeled pro or not? headscratch.gif

    I dunno. If someone wants to be part of CPS? A camera is just what it is a camera, but then again I am not the one setting requirements to join organization/union/thingamajig like CPS. rolleyes1.gif
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  • EOS_JDEOS_JD Registered Users Posts: 68 Big grins
    edited April 6, 2010
    umm.. people, Fotoworx is arguing more on the lines that Canon Australia doesn't believe that either the 7D or the 5D2 are professional grade bodies to be part of their CPA (or some other) thing. The discrepancies is among the corporate locations, US/EU/Australia, etc. Not Fotoworx.

    CPS Is Canon Professional Services.

    See here for the membership details

    http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=MultiMiscPageAct&key=CPS_Member&keycode=CPS&fcategoryid=2647

    Clearly the 7D and EOS5D MkII are Pro bodies suitable for the Platinum Membership level although you need a lot more than bodies and lenses to get that! Like $500! + for all l,evels you now need to be a FULL TIME professional photographer - Probably knocks out about 80% of their membership!
  • pathfinderpathfinder Super Moderators Posts: 14,707 moderator
    edited April 6, 2010
    In the film days, you could shoot Kodachrome 35mm film in any 35 mm camera. If it was a Nikon interchangeable lens body, you could use almost any Nikon lens as well. The only thing that changed was the body, and the PRO bodies were the ones you could drive nails with, as well as shoot pictures. They were dragged through the sand, dropped out of bags, and still kept on ticking.

    My point being that they were durable, tolerated abuse much better, and were built like tanks. None of the current DSLRs are built to that standard, but the 1 series from Canon and the top of the line Nikons come pretty close.

    But you could still make great images with Kodachrome, great glass, and a cheap black box if you knew what you were doing. The final result was the image, the print. No one ever knew what body was used, and that is still true today.

    Prints do not display exif data, after all.

    I have seen gallery prints for sale that were shot with point and shoots. No one but the photographer really knew they were looking at a pano from a P&S - the pano was 4 feet long. Looked very good too.
    Pathfinder - www.pathfinder.smugmug.com

    Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
  • Moogle PepperMoogle Pepper Registered Users Posts: 2,950 Major grins
    edited April 6, 2010
    Trying to find the requirements for CPS Australia. I am not Australian. And I am not personally interested in joining CPS America.

    In any case, this is probably off topic, but fotoworx are you trying to join CPS? Too bad the site for CPS in Australia membership eligibility is down. If you aren't trying or thinking about joining CPS, than all this pro or non pro labels is just conjecture and talk.
    Food & Culture.
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  • chrisjohnsonchrisjohnson Registered Users Posts: 772 Major grins
    edited April 6, 2010
    Cps
    EOS_JD wrote:
    CPS Is Canon Professional Services.

    See here for the membership details

    http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=MultiMiscPageAct&key=CPS_Member&keycode=CPS&fcategoryid=2647

    Clearly the 7D and EOS5D MkII are Pro bodies suitable for the Platinum Membership level although you need a lot more than bodies and lenses to get that! Like $500! + for all l,evels you now need to be a FULL TIME professional photographer - Probably knocks out about 80% of their membership!

    Ouch. Looks like Canon hired some marketeer fresh out of grad school to squeeze a few extra bucks from their customers. I guess I just about qualify for any level but none of them promise what I might want - a loaner shipped and delivered to any address within 24 hours while my kit goes back for repair via slow mail. I would sooner they asked for an x000$ deposit with 2% interest to guarantee a really fast service - I would happily leave the cash with them on these terms.

    Fortunately their kit has so far proved reliable but just-in-case something goes wrong with their product, Canon now broadcast that they will not trust me at all. Not a nice feeling. Especially when I have paid already and might still not be able to prove that I am a full-time professional. This scam is complete BS and undermines my faith in Canon. The quicker they discontinue the better - and fire that marketeer who conceived this rubbish.
  • CaspianCaspian Registered Users Posts: 165 Major grins
    edited April 6, 2010
    Cameras aren't pros, people are pros. People who use their camera a lot or take pictures in extreme conditions need equipment made for that kind of use. I am not a working pro, but it seems to me that someone who must pay the bills by taking pictures will approach this as any other artist or workman. You buy the least expensive tool you need to do the job that you need to do or reasonably expect that you will need to do. The camera is a tool and not an end in itself. A photographer will make a more lasting impression with the quality of his or her work than with the quality of his or her gear. When I have been asked to do photography for a fee, people have asked to see samples of my work, they have never asked what kind of camera I use.
  • jmphotocraftjmphotocraft Registered Users Posts: 2,987 Major grins
    edited April 6, 2010
    I've sold photos from my Pentax K1000, therefore it is a pro camera. ;)

    On the other hand, I do have to admit that after having pre-paid to have my child photographed for their sports team, I was pretty miffed to see the guy shooting with a Rebel and kit lens. Lame.
    -Jack

    An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
  • Bear DaleBear Dale Registered Users Posts: 71 Big grins
    edited April 6, 2010
    davev wrote:
    fotoworx, just about everyone in this thread feels like the 7D is a pro camera, you're the most vocal saying it isn't.
    Why is it not a pro camera to you? Build? Weather seals? Image? Features? Sensor size? Exactly where does it lack that label in your mind.

    I'm not a pro, never will be and never want to be. I've made my fortune in other ways and thankfully my days of full time working are a thing of the past.
    But I'm a stickler for nomenclature. I telephoned Canon Australia yesterday and asked them if ownership of 5DMKII and 7D bodies would be acceptable to them for CPS membership and was told that unfortunately Canon do not reconize those bodies as pro bodies.

    Seems to me a lot of people just don't get what this thread is about and should re-read it.

    Here is there phone number if you'd like to question them - 1800 635 717


    And once again copied and pasted -

    http://www.canon.co.nz/en-NZ/Pro-Photography/CPS-Member-Login-Sign-Up/Member-Eligibility

    To be eligible for membership of CPS, you need to:
    • Be a full-time professional photographer *
    • Own/use and register with CPS two or more eligible Canon EOS professional bodies ** and three or more L-series EF lenses which have been purchased from an authorised Canon Professional Dealer in Australia or New Zealand.
    * A full-time photographer is defined as someone who generates the majority of their income from photography and who operates through a registered business.
    ** Currently the eligible models are: EOS-1Ds Mark III, EOS-1Ds Mark II, EOS-1Ds, EOS-1D Mark III, EOS-1D Mark IIN, EOS-1D Mark II, EOS-1D, EOS-1V.
    EOS-5D bodies may be registered, but benefits for this model will be limited to priority serving. A minimum of at least one EOS-1 series model is required to register an EOS-5D
    If you fulfil these criteria and wish to apply for CPS membership.
    Your information should be forwarded to CPS for approval. You will be contacted via email with confirmation of the success of your application. If successful, you will be issued a CPS membership number and granted access to CPS benefits.
    Cheers,
    Bear

    Some of my photos on Flickr
    My Facebook
  • Brett1000Brett1000 Registered Users Posts: 819 Major grins
    edited April 6, 2010
    On the other hand, I do have to admit that after having pre-paid to have my child photographed for their sports team, I was pretty miffed to see the guy shooting with a Rebel and kit lens. Lame.

    rolleyes1.gifbut those Rebels have the sensor (or better) as the expensive models!
  • EclipsedEclipsed Registered Users Posts: 360 Major grins
    edited April 6, 2010
    Fotoworx, no one disagrees with the fact that Canon doesn't consider those bodies "Pro" in the Australia area. It just ins't true everywhere.
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