While some hosts have gone under, photo hosting continues to be a burgeoning business. Canon has had a beta running for some time that looks interesting even though it has considerable development to come, and now 500px has announced a redeveloped offering is imminent!
Michael - I spent a rather uninteresting afternoon here in Singapore reading this thread. I did, however, become increasingly impressed with your attitude toward those of us who are using/have used SM.
It seems, to me anyway, that you're getting hammered, sometime fairly, sometimes unfairly. Might I suggest, after having watched the latest interview with Baldy, that perhaps you could explain what features are the subject of the patent issues, so at least we can all then make an honest assessment.
My reasoning for this is that it gives SM a chance to explain what features are at patent issue here, and that way, we, as a community, can feed back to SM management if they are important to us or not?
Kinda sounds wierd, but hey, thinking outside the BS might work?
Appreciate your thoughts, Michael, and those from the rest of the community on this.
Gosh, the original podcast is an hour and the smugmug part of it over 30 minutes
Since you won't sumarize I will (I've FF through most of the interview so may have missed some other stuff)
(At around 18 minutes)
Smugmug development is slower than it could be because....
1. Resources on lawsuits. They spend as much on lawsuits as they do on development.
2. Due to fear of 1. they are not implementing some requested features due to patents.
(it would be nice to know what those are)
What's new for 2013
(At around 27 minutes)
Focus on Mobile and website look and feel/customization
There's also some talk of smugmug getting acquired. The reponse is they always have offers and have always rebuffed them but given how run down/haggard baldy looks when discussing the patent trolls you get the sense that they are one good lawsuit away from having to sell out. If it's the same for the other services that could explain why zen just sold out......
Totally SPOT ON! Did you also notice earlier about previous acquisitions? And the scratching etc...shows ying tendencies). Really not sure what to think of SM now.
. . . Might I suggest, after having watched the latest interview with Baldy, that perhaps you could explain what features are the subject of the patent issues, so at least we can all then make an honest assessment.
My reasoning for this is that it gives SM a chance to explain what features are at patent issue here, and that way, we, as a community, can feed back to SM management if they are important to us or not?
. . .
It is a natural question, but would be a bad business decision to answer it.
The patent trolls would love to find a discussion thread where SmugMug employees "admitted they were planning to use our intellectual property". It would give the trolls a heads-up on the areas SmugMug felt themselves to be most exposed (even if SM believe themselves to be in the right).
That is the difficulty in discussing ANY of this with non SM employees. Put the ideas out there and you give competitors an opportunity to create "prior art", even though it was thought-up here (so they can sue SM later). Tell people what you most fear being sued over and you've given an aggressor a suggested attack.
What absolute rubbish, Bruce. Speaking about open trials is in the public interest. It's called due process and an open court. Patent trials rarely go to a jury in the US and Canada - let alone most places in the world with a "Western" system.
Speaking of non-opened patent suits, is another option they CAN talk about. No law against that. I think y'all call it the First Amendment?
A GOOD business decision would be to do the Hallmark case (look it up), and actually say what they were being allegedly "sued" for under patent violation. No harm. No foul.
I suggested they speak about WHAT they are being sued for, which will be in open court documents.
Go get a law degree, or even better, a PhD in various commercial law, like I have.
What absolute rubbish, Bruce. Speaking about open trials is in the public interest. It's called due process and an open court. Patent trials rarely go to a jury in the US and Canada - let alone most places in the world with a "Western" system.
Speaking of non-opened patent suits, is another option they CAN talk about. No law against that. I think y'all call it the First Amendment?
A GOOD business decision would be to do the Hallmark case (look it up), and actually say what they were being allegedly "sued" for under patent violation. No harm. No foul.
I suggested they speak about WHAT they are being sued for, which will be in open court documents.
Go get a law degree, or even better, a PhD in various commercial law, like I have.
Who said anything about open trials? You wanted to hear about their concerns for new features that might invite difficulty with patent trolls so commentary could be gathered about the relative merits of those new features.
What absolute rubbish, Bruce. Speaking about open trials is in the public interest. It's called due process and an open court. Patent trials rarely go to a jury in the US and Canada - let alone most places in the world with a "Western" system.
Speaking of non-opened patent suits, is another option they CAN talk about. No law against that. I think y'all call it the First Amendment?
A GOOD business decision would be to do the Hallmark case (look it up), and actually say what they were being allegedly "sued" for under patent violation. No harm. No foul.
I suggested they speak about WHAT they are being sued for, which will be in open court documents.
Go get a law degree, or even better, a PhD in various commercial law, like I have.
Ah, reading your original message again I see that you did not say you wanted to discuss prospective patent conflicts.
So your suggestion is that there may be current features of SmugMug services that we can do without?
That makes even less sense.
Public discussion of open trials is a great idea. The defendant in a patent case would be a fool to participate in such a discussion beyond saying they believe they have done no wrong. You want them to consider shrinking their feature set and hint at culpability at the same time.
Michael - I spent a rather uninteresting afternoon here in Singapore reading this thread. I did, however, become increasingly impressed with your attitude toward those of us who are using/have used SM.
It seems, to me anyway, that you're getting hammered, sometime fairly, sometimes unfairly. Might I suggest, after having watched the latest interview with Baldy, that perhaps you could explain what features are the subject of the patent issues, so at least we can all then make an honest assessment.
My reasoning for this is that it gives SM a chance to explain what features are at patent issue here, and that way, we, as a community, can feed back to SM management if they are important to us or not?
Kinda sounds wierd, but hey, thinking outside the BS might work?
Appreciate your thoughts, Michael, and those from the rest of the community on this.
Kind regards, Pete
Hi Pete,
Thank you for the kind words. You are indeed correct, I have been put into a position that may not make me everyone's best friend. It is hard, but I wouldn't have it any other way, given how excited I am for the future of SmugMug and our customers.
As much as we hate to not talk about everything with our customers, it is our policy to not talk about legal matters...whether open, possible, or remote. Legal is legal, and we feel that in this day in age, it is better. I apologize, but that is our stand.
On a side note, have you seen this update from Baldy?
Nice site Bryan! Couldn't find how you linked it to the sales area of SM though...my mistake??
I didn't link it to SM for sales...I never made much from sales so I downgraded my account here. I'm just using SM for backup and temporary storage for events/weddings, etc.
I'm currently working on my new squarespace design - I'll share when it's live.
I'm still uncertain if I'll leave SM, though I might downgrade from business to portfolio for now to save some $$. Still hoping for the features we all want.
I am really impressed with your Squarespace site. The layout is great and the flow so simple (great pictures also). Thanks for sharing your site. I have to renew my SM site after the summer and if there still are no updates I think I will switch over and just do a basic package SM for my clients also.
It just seems that SM just went with a basic template for there customers. I have changed my website so many times I cannot count trying to make it look more like other company's layouts. Still not happy but that is on me. I am a newbee at site building so I really owuld like to thank all the help from the customizers here. My customers deserve better than my cappy customizing. lol
I have read the post Bald'y put out and I thank him for atleast saying what is going on.
SM pls doing something soon before I pull all my hair out:bash
I am really impressed with your Squarespace site. The layout is great and the flow so simple (great pictures also). Thanks for sharing your site.
Thanks! Though it is no longer squarespace and is now a WordPress self-hosted site. Squarespace didn't quite have what I was looking for for front end aesthetic either. I found this template and loved it - though it has its own drawbacks the design is great.
Thanks! Though it is no longer squarespace and is now a WordPress self-hosted site. Squarespace didn't quite have what I was looking for for front end aesthetic either. I found this template and loved it - though it has its own drawbacks the design is great.
well just view how Flickr evolved today, beautiful flowing photos, and 1Tb for ... 25$ a year?!
I do HOPE that Smug Mug begins WORKING on this "new exiting" thing, it is almost 7 or eight months since the price increase and apart from photo tips and new postcards, I have not seen any substantial changes, even not a word from them... that is a bit dissapointing.
Hey plenty of exiting phototips in magazines so please...
well just view how Flickr evolved today, beautiful flowing photos, and 1Tb for ... 25$ a year?!
Every time a photo site updates its interface it makes SM look older. Flickr and Google+ Photos are providing gorgeous, mobile friendly ways of sharing photographs, 500px has had a revamp recently too as well.
Yes, Smug doesn't have the resources of Google or Yahoo(Flickr) but they really need to step it up. They're being left behind.
yep you're right, but as a user since 2005 I still only have to pay 25$ :-), not that I mind paying the 150$ to smugmug, but I believe the possibility of some sophisticated themes or the photo flow possibility (one likes it or doesn't, ok) would be nice. we're almost 6 months in 2013 now and since the price increase it is a bit hard to see a service costing 1/3 th of SM doing at least some efforts to bring something new that is considerable.
I know software writing is a hard job and takes some time but then I hope SmugMug has a better team because of their PRO reputation.
Philippe
Every time a photo site updates its interface it makes SM look older. Flickr and Google+ Photos are providing gorgeous, mobile friendly ways of sharing photographs, 500px has had a revamp recently too as well.
Yes, Smug doesn't have the resources of Google or Yahoo(Flickr) but they really need to step it up. They're being left behind.
Yep, that is just the point! They (SmugMug ) do not have the resources, but then they do charge x times the amount... I think the competition is getting though also, 500px is gorgeous, and it isn't costly, great mobile viewing (becoming important these days) ... and 500px 75$ / year for unlim storage... (sorry SmugMug for the price mentioning, but hey, just look at how these sites evolved the last year, and compare that with their priceplan...)
Yep, that is just the point! They (SmugMug ) do not have the resources, but then they do charge x times the amount... I think the competition is getting though also, 500px is gorgeous, and it isn't costly, great mobile viewing (becoming important these days) ... and 500px 75$ / year for unlim storage... (sorry SmugMug for the price mentioning, but hey, just look at how these sites evolved the last year, and compare that with their priceplan...)
I'm not going to try defending or delving into all the issues with the delays of the new design, but I understand better now (after reading the info Baldy has relayed & other info too). I was for awhile rather impatient too, but now just feeling a little more like "good things come to those who wait"! There are smaller fixes that I've wished for for years now that I'm actually more impatient for. And more than any excellent new displays, I'd like a crop tool that's large & accurate & has a bunch more ratios (especially the obvious ones like 1:2) But anyway, I want to clarify some stuff about these "other sites" or "competition" that are being lumped into the same category with SmugMug, and the wide comparisons I see people trying to make. I've been "on" some of these other sites enough to gather info. And I'm actually a member of 500px, just for an additional "front" for a certain select few of my photos. Let me just say: what the sites mentioned here actually offer, in comparison to SmugMug (even taking into consideration the $$) is very very very minimal. In most cases, I'd say the under-the-hood offerings of these sites can't even hold a candle to SmugMug.
Yes, 500px may have "unlimited storage". But you add ONE display copy (& have to take time to watermark it yourself if you want any protection), you cannot change the order of your photos at all (except in groups), and if you want to offer it for sale, you upload a second, larger file for sale & it will print at one crop size which the site dictates, on canvas only! Any 3:4 ratio photos will get cropped to heck. (Oh, & the customer can't even see the crop!) I don't foresee many actual sales happening there; how many people really want a large canvas as their only choice? This is just a tiny handful of examples of the limited capability of some of "the other sites". I could go on & on with that particular one. It may have one or two uses or benefits for me, but on SmugMug I have a huge gamut of possibilities that simply don't exist there. Cats & sub-cats are way more manageable & visible here, we get more keywords & can order them. Descriptions are non-existent there except on a photo... no category descriptions at all! No uploading of PSDs, TIFFs, videos, etc... just Jpegs. Another irritation is that your photos & thumbs are displayed almost everywhere on that site as squares, and there are areas of the site where squares are really useless when your original is rectangular. Sure, it looks pretty up-front, but when you're shown an "original" thumb of your upload that's for print (for your eyes only), do you really want a square thumb, so that there's nothing to even tell that thumb apart from another similar photo in a different orientation?! It's pretty ridiculous. I could never use that site as my main, sole photo site & be anywhere near happy. As a supplement, it's an OK fling, & yeah, the surface look is slick.. for now.
As far as that other place mentioned (the one starting with "F"), the biggest nasty thing about them is they strip out the photo's data like FB does, from what I understand, & any photo uploaded there is likely to become orphaned very easily. Also, displays are very limited and certainly no prettier than Smug's displays even at their best. SmugMug keeps your file intact, and has all kinds of ways of allowing the use of several file sizes for various purposes. And even though the watermarking is imperfect & needs updating (especially orientation), we have lots more possibilities for watermarking here than most sites have.
Yeah, I've tried other sites now & then just to see what they're like, but I always run into a lot of stuff within a few days that feels so limited compared with what we've got here. I know it all depends what's important to you, but it feels to me like there's very little you absolutely can't do here if you want, & the per-month cost (even now) provides a lot of services that I just can't find elsewhere. SmugVault is a huge bargain too: I pay a few bucks a month for storage of hundreds of huge non-Jpeg files in huge sizes. That few bucks allows me to sleep at night, knowing Smug's storage in several states is guarding my work for me. In conclusion, my main point is--- yeah, you'll see other sites that look slick on the surface, but you really have to ask yourself whether it holds up once you get down through the layers & into the nitty-gritty of photographer and customer / client capability. I think for a lot of us, another $10 to $20 a month more than the other site (the cost of a few lattes!) is well worth it for what we're getting. I do trust that SmugMug is gonna come through with the new design. But I do wish we'd have a new beta -peek or trial version of where it's at now, with new feedback discussions started, because without that it feels like Smug users' input is being disregarded & makes people much more antsy & distrustful. In other words, we don't know what's been heard, what's not, etc. I think a lot of us just want to know that all that feedback we took the time to do before is ongoing and/or being paid attention, & to see that some of those things have already been worked into the new design/s. It's like the whole fruitful discussion just completely stopped, and no one seems to explain why.
Thanks for the summary, TBT. I'm pretty new around here. Could you summarize what the lawsuit/patent troll issue is? What are they being sued over?
Oh, boy. They're pretty numerous to enumerate.
Here's an example: we were sued by VPS, who holds three patents with claims about pro photographers selling online. They also sued 5 of our pro photographer subscribers in the Chicago area who use SmugMug. The essence of the patents are if you upload photos, enable a second user (the photographer's customer) to access them and buy prints, you violate their patents.
On that particular case we spent around $2.5 million in attorney fees and a long trial in Chicago where we defended ourselves and our 5 customers. Before the trial came to conclusion, both sides agreed to settle for a sum I can't disclose. My understanding is Pictage made their settlement amount public at $3.9 million, but I don't know if that's accurate. I can say that we own a license for those patents now as a result of the settlement, so our customers shouldn't be sued by VPS. I know Pictage and Shutterfly do too, but I don't know about others. I would imagine all photo sites who get big enough and the customers who use them will be subject to these patents and perhaps that's why Zenfolio felt they had to sell, I have no idea.
That's one of seven patent issues/lawsuits we've faced but I can't talk about what happened with most of the others, I'm sorry to say, nor a big one we're dealing with now that is preventing us from offering a feature most of you want.
I'm not going to try defending or delving into all the issues with the delays of the new design, but I understand better now (after reading the info Baldy has relayed & other info too). I was for awhile rather impatient too, but now just feeling a little more like "good things come to those who wait"! There are smaller fixes that I've wished for for years now that I'm actually more impatient for. And more than any excellent new displays, I'd like a crop tool that's large & accurate & has a bunch more ratios (especially the obvious ones like 1:2) But anyway, I want to clarify some stuff about these "other sites" or "competition" that are being lumped into the same category with SmugMug, and the wide comparisons I see people trying to make. I've been "on" some of these other sites enough to gather info. And I'm actually a member of 500px, just for an additional "front" for a certain select few of my photos. Let me just say: what the sites mentioned here actually offer, in comparison to SmugMug (even taking into consideration the $$) is very very very minimal. In most cases, I'd say the under-the-hood offerings of these sites can't even hold a candle to SmugMug.
Yes, 500px may have "unlimited storage". But you add ONE display copy (& have to take time to watermark it yourself if you want any protection), you cannot change the order of your photos at all (except in groups), and if you want to offer it for sale, you upload a second, larger file for sale & it will print at one crop size which the site dictates, on canvas only! Any 3:4 ratio photos will get cropped to heck. (Oh, & the customer can't even see the crop!) I don't foresee many actual sales happening there; how many people really want a large canvas as their only choice? This is just a tiny handful of examples of the limited capability of some of "the other sites". I could go on & on with that particular one. It may have one or two uses or benefits for me, but on SmugMug I have a huge gamut of possibilities that simply don't exist there. Cats & sub-cats are way more manageable & visible here, we get more keywords & can order them. Descriptions are non-existent there except on a photo... no category descriptions at all! No uploading of PSDs, TIFFs, videos, etc... just Jpegs. Another irritation is that your photos & thumbs are displayed almost everywhere on that site as squares, and there are areas of the site where squares are really useless when your original is rectangular. Sure, it looks pretty up-front, but when you're shown an "original" thumb of your upload that's for print (for your eyes only), do you really want a square thumb, so that there's nothing to even tell that thumb apart from another similar photo in a different orientation?! It's pretty ridiculous. I could never use that site as my main, sole photo site & be anywhere near happy. As a supplement, it's an OK fling, & yeah, the surface look is slick.. for now.
As far as that other place mentioned (the one starting with "F"), the biggest nasty thing about them is they strip out the photo's data like FB does, from what I understand, & any photo uploaded there is likely to become orphaned very easily. Also, displays are very limited and certainly no prettier than Smug's displays even at their best. SmugMug keeps your file intact, and has all kinds of ways of allowing the use of several file sizes for various purposes. And even though the watermarking is imperfect & needs updating (especially orientation), we have lots more possibilities for watermarking here than most sites have.
Yeah, I've tried other sites now & then just to see what they're like, but I always run into a lot of stuff within a few days that feels so limited compared with what we've got here. I know it all depends what's important to you, but it feels to me like there's very little you absolutely can't do here if you want, & the per-month cost (even now) provides a lot of services that I just can't find elsewhere. SmugVault is a huge bargain too: I pay a few bucks a month for storage of hundreds of huge non-Jpeg files in huge sizes. That few bucks allows me to sleep at night, knowing Smug's storage in several states is guarding my work for me. In conclusion, my main point is--- yeah, you'll see other sites that look slick on the surface, but you really have to ask yourself whether it holds up once you get down through the layers & into the nitty-gritty of photographer and customer / client capability. I think for a lot of us, another $10 to $20 a month more than the other site (the cost of a few lattes!) is well worth it for what we're getting. I do trust that SmugMug is gonna come through with the new design. But I do wish we'd have a new beta -peek or trial version of where it's at now, with new feedback discussions started, because without that it feels like Smug users' input is being disregarded & makes people much more antsy & distrustful. In other words, we don't know what's been heard, what's not, etc. I think a lot of us just want to know that all that feedback we took the time to do before is ongoing and/or being paid attention, & to see that some of those things have already been worked into the new design/s. It's like the whole fruitful discussion just completely stopped, and no one seems to explain why.
well indeed you have a point there, but in fact I beleive you're right about us users being left in the cold at what they are really working on, maybe that is the biggest frustration of them all, you see, I do not mind paying to SmugMug, ok the price increase last year was a bit eum annoying, but what is in fact most anoying of all is that in the great blabla and excuses and all that about the price rise, SM was giving the impression that some great things are about to come, hey, they would hire new software people to be even better for us, but until this day, nothing, nada, flops!
THAT is what I find nerving. Please SmugMug show some sign of life, I do hope that something for the better is to come.
"This American Life" & other radio episodes on tech patents
Anyone want to venture a guess at whether Obama will get ANYwhere with this stop-everything-from-moving-forward congress, on the patent issues??! :bash And whaddya know? I turned on "This American Life" (NPR) this week, and the story was about... drum-roll... "When Patents Attack"! Great program. It's an hour long, & you can hear it or read the transcript: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/496/when-patents-attack-part-two . It's Part 2 of an episode they did in 2011: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/441/when-patents-attack . I haven't even heard the entire thing yet, but what I did hear made me feel quite sickened. There's the hope that these issues are getting so bad though that SOMEthing will have to be done. I had also heard this very short (4 min) description of essentially the same problem a couple years ago on NPR: http://www.npr.org/2011/08/26/139924549/patent-wars-could-dull-techs-cutting-edge . Even though that one is mostly describing cell phone technology patents, you can easily think of all the similarities to what photography sites like SmugMug have to deal with. I really do feel for you, SmugMug. This stuff is a real mess, and it seems beyond unfair that these ridiculous patents should hold you back from innovation you want to do & basic capability you want to bring to your customers.
Anyone want to venture a guess at whether Obama will get ANYwhere with this stop-everything-from-moving-forward congress, on the patent issues??! :bash And whaddya know? I turned on "This American Life" (NPR) this week, and the story was about... drum-roll... "When Patents Attack"! Great program. It's an hour long, & you can hear it or read the transcript: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/496/when-patents-attack-part-two . It's Part 2 of an episode they did in 2011: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/441/when-patents-attack . I haven't even heard the entire thing yet, but what I did hear made me feel quite sickened. There's the hope that these issues are getting so bad though that SOMEthing will have to be done. I had also heard this very short (4 min) description of essentially the same problem a couple years ago on NPR: http://www.npr.org/2011/08/26/139924549/patent-wars-could-dull-techs-cutting-edge . Even though that one is mostly describing cell phone technology patents, you can easily think of all the similarities to what photography sites like SmugMug have to deal with. I really do feel for you, SmugMug. This stuff is a real mess, and it seems beyond unfair that these ridiculous patents should hold you back from innovation you want to do & basic capability you want to bring to your customers.
Thanks for the great resources Anna Lisa. To be honest, before I started with SmugMug 6 months ago, the only thing I knew about patents was that Apple and Samsung have a major war with a bunch. I never really heard the term "patent trolls" before, and had no idea that this type of stuff was even an issue. But, boy, have I done my research since I started here, and I am not afraid to say, it sickens me as well. Not only the patent issues that happen in the photography business, but I have read some of the most ridiculous patent cases, that hold back great innovators from developing awesome stuff.
It reminds me of the judge who sued a dry cleaner for 67 million dollars....because they lost his trousers.
Even though the dry cleaner eventually won, the high legal costs and loss of business forced them to shut down their dry cleaner business, a business they had started as their own American Dream. Makes me not only sad, but angry.
I know patent trolls and "The Great American Pants Suit" are completely different ends of the spectrum, but they are both ridiculous, and hamper innovation and the American Dream.
..., nor a big one we're dealing with now that is preventing us from offering a feature most of you want.
Baldy, Is the current big one (legal issue) that your dealing with now the main reason preventing or prolonging you from releasing the New Big Release were all hanging onto hope for?
Or is it simply not quite ready yet which is why you'll are burning the midnight oil?
When it is ready from a software standpoint, will the legal issues prolong the release even longer yet?
I read about the new site design, it looks great. Sorry I have no been able to read thru all 50 pages of comments.
Just please tell me that the redesign provides tools for internationalization/language change. This user-requested feature from hundreds of smugmuggers like me has been sitting idle in the feedback page since 2009.
It is the most powerful reason I haven't gone pro with you.
Also I am sorry to read that you have had to waste so much time and money to patent trolls. Let's hope the new awareness about their nefarious activities brings some relief and allows you publish the site in your own terms.
Comments
It seems, to me anyway, that you're getting hammered, sometime fairly, sometimes unfairly. Might I suggest, after having watched the latest interview with Baldy, that perhaps you could explain what features are the subject of the patent issues, so at least we can all then make an honest assessment.
My reasoning for this is that it gives SM a chance to explain what features are at patent issue here, and that way, we, as a community, can feed back to SM management if they are important to us or not?
Kinda sounds wierd, but hey, thinking outside the BS might work?
Appreciate your thoughts, Michael, and those from the rest of the community on this.
Kind regards, Pete
http://www.despatchesgallery.com
Nice site Bryan! Couldn't find how you linked it to the sales area of SM though...my mistake??
http://www.despatchesgallery.com
Totally SPOT ON! Did you also notice earlier about previous acquisitions? And the scratching etc...shows ying tendencies). Really not sure what to think of SM now.
http://www.despatchesgallery.com
It is a natural question, but would be a bad business decision to answer it.
The patent trolls would love to find a discussion thread where SmugMug employees "admitted they were planning to use our intellectual property". It would give the trolls a heads-up on the areas SmugMug felt themselves to be most exposed (even if SM believe themselves to be in the right).
That is the difficulty in discussing ANY of this with non SM employees. Put the ideas out there and you give competitors an opportunity to create "prior art", even though it was thought-up here (so they can sue SM later). Tell people what you most fear being sued over and you've given an aggressor a suggested attack.
Chooka chooka hoo la ley
Looka looka koo la ley
Speaking of non-opened patent suits, is another option they CAN talk about. No law against that. I think y'all call it the First Amendment?
A GOOD business decision would be to do the Hallmark case (look it up), and actually say what they were being allegedly "sued" for under patent violation. No harm. No foul.
I suggested they speak about WHAT they are being sued for, which will be in open court documents.
Go get a law degree, or even better, a PhD in various commercial law, like I have.
http://www.despatchesgallery.com
Who said anything about open trials? You wanted to hear about their concerns for new features that might invite difficulty with patent trolls so commentary could be gathered about the relative merits of those new features.
Chooka chooka hoo la ley
Looka looka koo la ley
Ah, reading your original message again I see that you did not say you wanted to discuss prospective patent conflicts.
So your suggestion is that there may be current features of SmugMug services that we can do without?
That makes even less sense.
Public discussion of open trials is a great idea. The defendant in a patent case would be a fool to participate in such a discussion beyond saying they believe they have done no wrong. You want them to consider shrinking their feature set and hint at culpability at the same time.
Chooka chooka hoo la ley
Looka looka koo la ley
Hi Pete,
Thank you for the kind words. You are indeed correct, I have been put into a position that may not make me everyone's best friend. It is hard, but I wouldn't have it any other way, given how excited I am for the future of SmugMug and our customers.
As much as we hate to not talk about everything with our customers, it is our policy to not talk about legal matters...whether open, possible, or remote. Legal is legal, and we feel that in this day in age, it is better. I apologize, but that is our stand.
On a side note, have you seen this update from Baldy?
http://dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=233530
Michael
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I didn't link it to SM for sales...I never made much from sales so I downgraded my account here. I'm just using SM for backup and temporary storage for events/weddings, etc.
I am really impressed with your Squarespace site. The layout is great and the flow so simple (great pictures also). Thanks for sharing your site. I have to renew my SM site after the summer and if there still are no updates I think I will switch over and just do a basic package SM for my clients also.
It just seems that SM just went with a basic template for there customers. I have changed my website so many times I cannot count trying to make it look more like other company's layouts. Still not happy but that is on me. I am a newbee at site building so I really owuld like to thank all the help from the customizers here. My customers deserve better than my cappy customizing. lol
I have read the post Bald'y put out and I thank him for atleast saying what is going on.
SM pls doing something soon before I pull all my hair out:bash
Thanks! Though it is no longer squarespace and is now a WordPress self-hosted site. Squarespace didn't quite have what I was looking for for front end aesthetic either. I found this template and loved it - though it has its own drawbacks the design is great.
well just view how Flickr evolved today, beautiful flowing photos, and 1Tb for ... 25$ a year?!
I do HOPE that Smug Mug begins WORKING on this "new exiting" thing, it is almost 7 or eight months since the price increase and apart from photo tips and new postcards, I have not seen any substantial changes, even not a word from them... that is a bit dissapointing.
Hey plenty of exiting phototips in magazines so please...
Every time a photo site updates its interface it makes SM look older. Flickr and Google+ Photos are providing gorgeous, mobile friendly ways of sharing photographs, 500px has had a revamp recently too as well.
Yes, Smug doesn't have the resources of Google or Yahoo(Flickr) but they really need to step it up. They're being left behind.
I understand your points. We are working furiously to bring all of our customers the updates they desire. I do think you will love them.
As for Flickr, as far as I know, they price is now $49 for ad free, which used to be $24.99
Michael
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$49 for Pro if you were not a Pro Account before. $25 for Pro if you already had a Pro account, and were on autorenew.
I know software writing is a hard job and takes some time but then I hope SmugMug has a better team because of their PRO reputation.
Philippe
Yep, that is just the point! They (SmugMug ) do not have the resources, but then they do charge x times the amount... I think the competition is getting though also, 500px is gorgeous, and it isn't costly, great mobile viewing (becoming important these days) ... and 500px 75$ / year for unlim storage... (sorry SmugMug for the price mentioning, but hey, just look at how these sites evolved the last year, and compare that with their priceplan...)
Remember the alpha preview, how modern it looked? Those were the days, hey?
I'm not going to try defending or delving into all the issues with the delays of the new design, but I understand better now (after reading the info Baldy has relayed & other info too). I was for awhile rather impatient too, but now just feeling a little more like "good things come to those who wait"! There are smaller fixes that I've wished for for years now that I'm actually more impatient for. And more than any excellent new displays, I'd like a crop tool that's large & accurate & has a bunch more ratios (especially the obvious ones like 1:2) But anyway, I want to clarify some stuff about these "other sites" or "competition" that are being lumped into the same category with SmugMug, and the wide comparisons I see people trying to make. I've been "on" some of these other sites enough to gather info. And I'm actually a member of 500px, just for an additional "front" for a certain select few of my photos. Let me just say: what the sites mentioned here actually offer, in comparison to SmugMug (even taking into consideration the $$) is very very very minimal. In most cases, I'd say the under-the-hood offerings of these sites can't even hold a candle to SmugMug.
Yes, 500px may have "unlimited storage". But you add ONE display copy (& have to take time to watermark it yourself if you want any protection), you cannot change the order of your photos at all (except in groups), and if you want to offer it for sale, you upload a second, larger file for sale & it will print at one crop size which the site dictates, on canvas only! Any 3:4 ratio photos will get cropped to heck. (Oh, & the customer can't even see the crop!) I don't foresee many actual sales happening there; how many people really want a large canvas as their only choice? This is just a tiny handful of examples of the limited capability of some of "the other sites". I could go on & on with that particular one. It may have one or two uses or benefits for me, but on SmugMug I have a huge gamut of possibilities that simply don't exist there. Cats & sub-cats are way more manageable & visible here, we get more keywords & can order them. Descriptions are non-existent there except on a photo... no category descriptions at all! No uploading of PSDs, TIFFs, videos, etc... just Jpegs. Another irritation is that your photos & thumbs are displayed almost everywhere on that site as squares, and there are areas of the site where squares are really useless when your original is rectangular. Sure, it looks pretty up-front, but when you're shown an "original" thumb of your upload that's for print (for your eyes only), do you really want a square thumb, so that there's nothing to even tell that thumb apart from another similar photo in a different orientation?! It's pretty ridiculous. I could never use that site as my main, sole photo site & be anywhere near happy. As a supplement, it's an OK fling, & yeah, the surface look is slick.. for now.
As far as that other place mentioned (the one starting with "F"), the biggest nasty thing about them is they strip out the photo's data like FB does, from what I understand, & any photo uploaded there is likely to become orphaned very easily. Also, displays are very limited and certainly no prettier than Smug's displays even at their best. SmugMug keeps your file intact, and has all kinds of ways of allowing the use of several file sizes for various purposes. And even though the watermarking is imperfect & needs updating (especially orientation), we have lots more possibilities for watermarking here than most sites have.
Yeah, I've tried other sites now & then just to see what they're like, but I always run into a lot of stuff within a few days that feels so limited compared with what we've got here. I know it all depends what's important to you, but it feels to me like there's very little you absolutely can't do here if you want, & the per-month cost (even now) provides a lot of services that I just can't find elsewhere. SmugVault is a huge bargain too: I pay a few bucks a month for storage of hundreds of huge non-Jpeg files in huge sizes. That few bucks allows me to sleep at night, knowing Smug's storage in several states is guarding my work for me. In conclusion, my main point is--- yeah, you'll see other sites that look slick on the surface, but you really have to ask yourself whether it holds up once you get down through the layers & into the nitty-gritty of photographer and customer / client capability. I think for a lot of us, another $10 to $20 a month more than the other site (the cost of a few lattes!) is well worth it for what we're getting. I do trust that SmugMug is gonna come through with the new design. But I do wish we'd have a new beta -peek or trial version of where it's at now, with new feedback discussions started, because without that it feels like Smug users' input is being disregarded & makes people much more antsy & distrustful. In other words, we don't know what's been heard, what's not, etc. I think a lot of us just want to know that all that feedback we took the time to do before is ongoing and/or being paid attention, & to see that some of those things have already been worked into the new design/s. It's like the whole fruitful discussion just completely stopped, and no one seems to explain why.
DayBreak, my Folk Music Group (some free mp3s!) http://daybreakfolk.com
Here's an example: we were sued by VPS, who holds three patents with claims about pro photographers selling online. They also sued 5 of our pro photographer subscribers in the Chicago area who use SmugMug. The essence of the patents are if you upload photos, enable a second user (the photographer's customer) to access them and buy prints, you violate their patents.
On that particular case we spent around $2.5 million in attorney fees and a long trial in Chicago where we defended ourselves and our 5 customers. Before the trial came to conclusion, both sides agreed to settle for a sum I can't disclose. My understanding is Pictage made their settlement amount public at $3.9 million, but I don't know if that's accurate. I can say that we own a license for those patents now as a result of the settlement, so our customers shouldn't be sued by VPS. I know Pictage and Shutterfly do too, but I don't know about others. I would imagine all photo sites who get big enough and the customers who use them will be subject to these patents and perhaps that's why Zenfolio felt they had to sell, I have no idea.
That's one of seven patent issues/lawsuits we've faced but I can't talk about what happened with most of the others, I'm sorry to say, nor a big one we're dealing with now that is preventing us from offering a feature most of you want.
http://digital2noise.blogspot.com/2009/01/vps-llc-pictage-patent-highway-robbery.html
I guess the Fotomedia lawsuit was a matter of public record too:
http://thepriorart.typepad.com/the_prior_art/fotomedia-technologies-llc-lawsuits.html
That one ended some photo sharing sites. It was based on us including photos in share emails.
well indeed you have a point there, but in fact I beleive you're right about us users being left in the cold at what they are really working on, maybe that is the biggest frustration of them all, you see, I do not mind paying to SmugMug, ok the price increase last year was a bit eum annoying, but what is in fact most anoying of all is that in the great blabla and excuses and all that about the price rise, SM was giving the impression that some great things are about to come, hey, they would hire new software people to be even better for us, but until this day, nothing, nada, flops!
THAT is what I find nerving. Please SmugMug show some sign of life, I do hope that something for the better is to come.
Obama takes action to curb frivolous lawsuits... (Reuters)
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/04/us-usa-obama-patents-idUSBRE9530KJ20130604
Thanks for the link! I have passed it on. One can hope
Michael
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Anyone want to venture a guess at whether Obama will get ANYwhere with this stop-everything-from-moving-forward congress, on the patent issues??! :bash And whaddya know? I turned on "This American Life" (NPR) this week, and the story was about... drum-roll... "When Patents Attack"! Great program. It's an hour long, & you can hear it or read the transcript: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/496/when-patents-attack-part-two . It's Part 2 of an episode they did in 2011: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/441/when-patents-attack . I haven't even heard the entire thing yet, but what I did hear made me feel quite sickened. There's the hope that these issues are getting so bad though that SOMEthing will have to be done. I had also heard this very short (4 min) description of essentially the same problem a couple years ago on NPR: http://www.npr.org/2011/08/26/139924549/patent-wars-could-dull-techs-cutting-edge . Even though that one is mostly describing cell phone technology patents, you can easily think of all the similarities to what photography sites like SmugMug have to deal with. I really do feel for you, SmugMug. This stuff is a real mess, and it seems beyond unfair that these ridiculous patents should hold you back from innovation you want to do & basic capability you want to bring to your customers.
DayBreak, my Folk Music Group (some free mp3s!) http://daybreakfolk.com
Thanks for the great resources Anna Lisa. To be honest, before I started with SmugMug 6 months ago, the only thing I knew about patents was that Apple and Samsung have a major war with a bunch. I never really heard the term "patent trolls" before, and had no idea that this type of stuff was even an issue. But, boy, have I done my research since I started here, and I am not afraid to say, it sickens me as well. Not only the patent issues that happen in the photography business, but I have read some of the most ridiculous patent cases, that hold back great innovators from developing awesome stuff.
It reminds me of the judge who sued a dry cleaner for 67 million dollars....because they lost his trousers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearson_v._Chung
Even though the dry cleaner eventually won, the high legal costs and loss of business forced them to shut down their dry cleaner business, a business they had started as their own American Dream. Makes me not only sad, but angry.
I know patent trolls and "The Great American Pants Suit" are completely different ends of the spectrum, but they are both ridiculous, and hamper innovation and the American Dream.
Michael
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Baldy, Is the current big one (legal issue) that your dealing with now the main reason preventing or prolonging you from releasing the New Big Release were all hanging onto hope for?
Or is it simply not quite ready yet which is why you'll are burning the midnight oil?
When it is ready from a software standpoint, will the legal issues prolong the release even longer yet?
Just please tell me that the redesign provides tools for internationalization/language change. This user-requested feature from hundreds of smugmuggers like me has been sitting idle in the feedback page since 2009.
It is the most powerful reason I haven't gone pro with you.
Luis