Buying a Camera? How To Not Get Ripped Off.

wxwax · February 3, 2004

How To Not Get Ripped Off On The Net
or
The Danger of Shopping for Price.

The Sign of the Seals
Phew! The site looks safe. It has all those great looking seals saying it's a good place to do business. Do me a flavor. Try clicking on those seals. If they're not links to information about the rating of that specific web site, they're bogus. Many times, the seals aren't links at all. Just wallpaper. Wallpaper that says "Ripoff in progress."

The Ratings Reader
Pay attention to the ratings at www.bizrate.com or www.cnet.com or whatever price comparison robot you're using. Listen to the complaints. If they sound like anything listed here, steer clear. Don't believe the little red stars. Click and read. Some here have five red stars. But click and you'll see that they're actually not rated at all.

Beware of Brooklyn
Nothing against the fine burg of Brooklyn. Maybe it's just a coincidence that a lot of the rip-off joints are based there. Who cares? If you see Brooklyn as the home base of the web site, be on alert.

The Warranty Wangle
Are you getting the full USA warranty? Does it say so on the web site? Do they confirm it if you talk to them? Make very sure. Because you might be buying a "gray market" camera. That's a camera that's been imported by the store, not the manufacturer. It was meant to be sold in Hong Kong, or Bangladesh. Not Brooklyn. And so it doesn't have the manufacturer's USA warranty. Which means you're out of luck if the camera breaks. Sadly, some web sites say they have the US warranty when in fact they're lying. Be very careful. One more reason to buy from a reputable outlet.

What's in the Box?
Check the manufacturer's site, or www.dpreview.com or www.stevesdigicams.com to see what you should be getting when you buy the camera. Some outfits will break up the box contents, charge you extra to get the whole package. Make sure they list everything you get, before you buy.

The Accessory Bully
You place your order online. Everything goes as planned. Then you get a call back. "Just checking your credit card information, sir or madam." Yeah, right. What follows is an arm-twisting, pressure tactics, sometimes belligerent attempt to get you to buy overpriced accessories. Some outfits will flatly refuse to sell you the camera at the price you saw on the web, unless you buy the overpriced accessories. Just so you know, if you say "yes" your grand total will be the same, maybe higher, than if you bought the whole schlemiel at a respectable site.

Do the Math
Everything sounds fine as they list each item you're buying and what it costs. You're happy. Whatta deal. Then you ask for the total. Hey, waitaminute! How did it get so high? Turns out there's a mysterious charge or two they forgot - oops! -- to tell you about. Keep track of costs, do your own math and compare it to theirs. Trust me, it ain't new math that makes their total higher.

Should I Buy a Starter Kit?
On some sites, it's hard to find a way to buy the camera alone. Lots of places try to sell you a camera "kit." Some sites call it a starter "kit." Who knew that the word "kit" actually meant "wildly overcharging for marginally useful accessories that you could get anywhere else for half the price assuming you even think they're necessary." The advice here: skip the kit and pocket the profits.

The FedEx Factor
Wow, you got a great price. Great, send me the camera. Wait, shipping is how much? Why, that's twice as much as anyone else. Goodness, when I add it all up, suddenly I'm paying the same as the at other web sites. Hey. They just slipped me the FedEx Factor. :wxwax

The Insurance Scam
Ready to checkout? OK, ring it up. Then you find out they're charging $60, $80 or more for shipping and "insurance." Gee, guess who's pocketing that "insurance money? The good hands people of Brooklyn.

My Advice?
My peace of mind and a stress free life are worth a lot. I say spend a little extra and do your business with a reputable site. Think of it as buying quality.

gus · February 3, 2004

I bought my c-5050 on the net from Hong Kong for $960 AUD & paid $100 import duty. The camera was in the shops here at $1400

6 weeks later the next model ...the c-5060 was in the shops here for $1100. I didnt want the 5060...would much rather the 5050 BUT having seen this ..i would not take the chance again. If i have a warrenty prob then its back to Hong Kong...not to one of the 5 camera shops 15 mins away.

Never again.

wxwax · February 3, 2004

Or pay full boat at a local repair shop. Neither option is a good one.

wxwax · February 22, 2004

So you decide you're the one who won't get ripped off by using a Brooklyn-based camera retailer. Or you just really, really like their prices.

OK. But at least check out their storefronts before you give them your money. See if you recognize your store among the AKA's for each of these store fronts.

rutt · March 27, 2004

wxwax wrote:

So you decide you're the one who won't get ripped off by using a Brooklyn-based camera retailer. Or you just really, really like their prices.

OK. But at least check out their storefronts before you give them your money. See if you recognize your store among the AKA's for each of these store fronts.

I'm bipolar on this score. I either shop for the very lowest price I can find (Brooklyn, Toronto, ebay, froogle, whatever) or I buy from Jeff Hirsch at Fotocare.

I use Brooklyn &etc for lenses, software, and for relatively inexpensive stuff. I guess that not much can go wrong with lenses and the US warranty isn't worth that much. Less expensive stuff (point&shoots, accessaries) are just less central to my life. Software just doesn't matter where you get it as long as you can register it. My favorite great deal is on Photoshop. To get the latest version, use ebay to buy the very oldest full version you can that has never been registered. Then buy an upgrade. This costs about $200-$300 vs $650.

Jeff Hirsch is the greatest. Fotocare is a Manhattan pro shop. Very high end. If you want to trade in you Hasselblad for a Leif or Rollei system, this is the place for you. If you need to rent a wind machine for a fashion shoot so your model's hair looks just so, again, this is the place for you. Jeff is all the things you'd like in a camera salesman: intelligent, knowledgable, friendly, willing to spend time and go the extra distance to make and keep loyal customers.

My D60 once started to take pictures with a little spot on them, always in the same place. I called Jeff and he personally spent 10 minutes on the phone with me looking at the pictures on the web and walking me through cleaning the sensor.

Jeff gets advanced information about new products coming. He knew about the D10 about a month before the online rumors became accurate and clear. I got on his wait list and sold my D60 on ebay for $1500 (buy it now). The net cost to upgrade D60->10D was thus about $100 + shipping and ebay listing. I was without a camera for about a week.

Jeff's prices aren't the lowest, but they are often comparable with B&H. Buying major items from him is like getting a second warranty. My 10D (I had before anyone posted a full review) had a small defect. One of the focus points didn't light. Canon said wait 3 weeks. Jeff traded for a new camera which I had before I sent him the defective one.

You don't have to take my word for it. I learned about Jeff from Phil Greenspun, founder of photo.net. Here is his comment. (In fact the entire article is relevant, if a little out of date.)

wxwax · March 27, 2004

Good post. It's nice to hear about a vendor who really does practice customer service.

WRT buying lenses from Brooklyn, other than warranty, I think one of the biggest issues is whether or not they actually have the lens in stock. I've read many a story of someone taking the risk, and then waiting for weeks for a product they were promised in a few days. Naturally, their credit card was charged immediately.

Caveat emptor.

rutt · March 27, 2004

wxwax wrote:

Good post. It's nice to hear about a vendor who really does practice customer service.

WRT buying lenses from Brooklyn, other than warranty, I think one of the biggest issues is whether or not they actually have the lens in stock. I've read many a story of someone taking the risk, and then waiting for weeks for a product they were promised in a few days. Naturally, their credit card was charged immediately.

Caveat emptor.

I've found that Brooklyn + bizrate stars (or similar) is pretty reliable and stil cheap (though not the cheapest.) I like ebay, too. Someday that may go south, but for now, I've used it a lot and never had a bad experience.

PerezDesignGroup · April 5, 2004

This thread stuck a serious chord in me. I normally use ResellerRatings to check up on online companies before buying. Just wanted to share the knowledge and help out. From my experience, their reviews are quite accurate.

Oh, upon reading the first post, I couldn't help but feel this company was the reason for it.

wxwax · April 5, 2004

PDG, welcome aboard and thanks for the link.

I think you're right about the company in your link. And they're certainly not alone in practicing the dark arts.

gus · April 5, 2004

So what about the " Power Seller " ?

Can this stuff be pasted onto a dodgy sellers page ?

http://pages.ebay.com.au/services/buyandsell/powersellers.html

wxwax · April 5, 2004

Humungus wrote:

So what about the " Power Seller " ?

Can this stuff be pasted onto a dodgy sellers page ?

http://pages.ebay.com.au/services/buyandsell/powersellers.html

Good question.

These guys play all sorts of games. Last week, on another forum, they raised the alarm about an e-bay auction. If you wanted to see more pics of the product, you had to click on a link. The page it took you to looked like the official e-bay sign-in page. But in fact, it was on another site. But you'd have to be looking in the address window of your browser to spot it. The guy was harvesting people's ID's and passwords. He must have scored a few, there were many bids on the camera.

I make a point of clicking on anything that's a reference, or seal of approval. If it's not a real link, then I get suspicious.

Mr. Cob · August 12, 2004

Need some advise on online camera buying
Howdy All,

I have just read the post about being ripped off, I am interested in getting a Sony DSC-P100. This is the best price I have found,

http://www.amphotoworld.com/product.asp?id=sndscp100&l=ShopCartUSA

does anyone know if this is a good place to do online buissness or is it one of the Brooklyn rip off places

Any help you can give will be most apriciated, thanks.

Mr. Cob

PS. Please overlook my lack of spelin skills, I can't figure out how to get the "I-Spell" program to work on this list

:cry

patch29 · August 12, 2004

Mr. Cob wrote:

I have just read the post about being ripped off, I am interested in getting a Sony DSC-P100. This is the best price I have found,

http://www.amphotoworld.com/product.asp?id=sndscp100&l=ShopCartUSA

does anyone know if this is a good place to do online buissness or is it one of the Brooklyn rip off places

I don't know from personal experience, but a quick google search lead me to this post at photo.net.

Here is another poor rating.

Here is where they are based.

I would probably steer very clear from A&M.

I have used B+H several times and have had very good experiences. They may not be the cheapest, but they deliver what you order. You will find people that do not like them, but I believe them to be the exception and not the rule.

wxwax · August 13, 2004

Mr. Cob, I would run, not walk, away. The links Patch posted are excellent, and are exactly the warning signs one should pay attention to. Sometimes saving a few bucks can get expensive!

Andy · August 13, 2004

brooklyn camera outfits
stay awayundefined

try b&h, they are the best. don't go there or call friday afternoons or on saturday, they are observant and are closed on the sabbath.

cmr164 · August 13, 2004

andy wrote:

stay awayundefined

try b&h, they are the best. don't go there or call friday afternoons or on saturday, they are observant and are closed on the sabbath.

Lets not forget Adorama as they are right there with B&H for reliability, honesty, price, and service.

wxwax · August 16, 2004

I agree with the recommendations for B&H and Adorama. I have bought from both and have no complaints. However, depending upon what you want to buy, it is possible to find equally reliable internet vendors with lower prices. This is more true of consumer electronics than it is of specialty camera gear. But for a Sony digital camera, it's not hard to beat the B&H price.

Andy · August 16, 2004

buying lenses from the brooklyn store-fronts

wxwax wrote:

WRT buying lenses from Brooklyn, other than warranty, I think one of the biggest issues is whether or not they actually have the lens in stock. I've read many a story of someone taking the risk, and then waiting for weeks for a product they were promised in a few days. Naturally, their credit card was charged immediately.
Caveat emptor.

also, you should worry about how "new" the lens actually is. i've seen folks buy from there, and get a shriveled box, glass with fingerprints and scratches, and worse.

if i'm spending $1600 on a hunk of glass, i'll get it from a reputable dealer, where i have a liberal return policy.

Mr. Cob · August 16, 2004

Is this the type of scam you folks warned about?
Howdy All,

I was just sent a PM by one of our members, he sugjested that I try a company called "New Egg" as they had a good price on their web site for the camera I was intersted in. I called up the web site, the camera ( a Sony DSC-P100 ) was on sale for $338.00, I went throught the ordering procedur and calculated the shipping which came to 0.99 making a total of $338.99. I then placed the order where upon the price of the camera changed to $349.00 and the shipping went up to $4.50. I then called the 800 number and talked to Veronica, she said to go ahead enter my CC number and that I would recive an e-mail confirmation number , to then call her back and she would change the price of the camera and the shipping back to the $338.99, and if I wasen't satified I could always send the camera back. I asked why she couldn't just change it now, she said she couldn't do it until the order had been placed. At this point I called bull shit and hung up the phone.

I have ordered bike parts and tires for years over the net and have never had a problem, this has just really put me off from buying a camera on line, I hate to pay the full price at a regular store but at least if I do get ripped off I'll have a place to go and a person to punch if it happens. Thanks for the help and advise that was given. I am in a learning curve here so bear with me.

__________________

dugmar · August 16, 2004

I've ordered a lot of stuff from newegg.com, probably at least 10 orders, including an olympus point and shoot, numerous memory cards and most recently a twin battery grip for my digital rebel. I've never had a problem and they ship fast and cheap. (And I work in mail order.) Prices aren't the best, but not the worst either. I give two thumbs up to newegg.com

Doug

wxwax · August 17, 2004

Sorry to hear about your experience, Mr. Cob. It does sound like an odd runaround. I've not read about New Egg taking liberties with folks, so who knows if she was on the up-and-up or not.

I reckon you did the right thing - if you're not comfortable, then bail out.

What's your upper limit for the camera? There are a couple of other reputable online retailers that are cheaper than B&H's $399. But they're still not as cheap as the New Egg price was.

patch29 · August 17, 2004

wxwax wrote:

What's your upper limit for the camera? There are a couple of other reputable online retailers that are cheaper than B&H's $399. But they're still not as cheap as the New Egg price was.

That price is for the blue model, the plain silver one is $369.00, if you click to email for lower price. Sorry to hear about your troubles Mr. Cob.

Mr. Cob · August 17, 2004

Thinking about doing the "Walmart" thing
Howdy All,

Thanks for your help, I have found the camera for the $399.00 price at about ten differnt web sites. Walmart, has the Sony DSC-P93 or maybe it's a P97 for $325 bucks. I don't know what the differances are between the cameras but I am going to "assume" that for a person with my level of non-expertise it can't amount to much.

I am thinking real hard of just going this route, I can see what I am getting and won't have any problems taking it back if for some reason there's a problem. If anyone can offer advise on wheather the P100 is that much of a better camera and worth the extra cost I would apriciate hearing from you. Thanks.

patch29 · August 17, 2004

Mr. Cob wrote:

Howdy All,

Thanks for your help, I have found the camera for the $399.00 price at about ten differnt web sites. Walmart, has the Sony DSC-P93 or maybe it's a P97 for $325 bucks. I don't know what the differances are between the cameras but I am going to "assume" that for a person with my level of non-expertise it can't amount to much.

I am thinking real hard of just going this route, I can see what I am getting and won't have any problems taking it back if for some reason there's a problem. If anyone can offer advise on wheather the P100 is that much of a better camera and worth the extra cost I would apriciate hearing from you. Thanks.

Here is a side by side of the three. The differences I see are screen size, frames per second, megapixels and battery type.

Why pick the Sony? Just curious, many have gone with the Canon A70, 75 or 80 and come in a little less expensive, plus they use Compact Flash which is a little less expensive and they use AA batteries (like the two lower end Sony's).

Mr. Cob · August 17, 2004

Thanks for the link

patch29 wrote:

Here is a side by side of the three. The differences I see are screen size, frames per second, megapixels and battery type.

Why pick the Sony? Just curious, many have gone with the Canon A70, 75 or 80 and come in a little less expensive, plus they use Compact Flash which is a little less expensive and they use AA batteries (like the two lower end Sony's).

Howdy Patch29,

Thank you for the link, it was very informative and easily showed the differance between the cameras

I want to stay with Sony simply because I already have a Sony F707, the DSC-P sieres of cameras seem to operate in much the same manner and will use the same memory sticks that I now have, also the way the DSC-P cameras download on to the computer is the same as with my F707.

I am one of those folks who is extreamly intimadated by technoligy, I have a bad memory and have a very hard time learning new things. A couple of years ago the VA set me up with a computer, the Sony F707 still camera and a Cannon G1 vidio camera. The still camera I have learned to handle fairly well, the vidio camera I can use but I have NOT yet figured out how to use the editing program ( Premire 6 ) that is so far beyond me as to make it worthless. The VA set me up with all of this wonderful equipment and gave me next to nothing in the way of training on how to use it ( your tax payer dollars at work ) I do my best to learn on my own and with the help of a few others on this list.

As I do most of my picture taking from the seat of a motorcycle, I need something more compact and easier to carry then the F707, thus my interst in the DSC-P siers cameras. Thanks again for your help

patch29 · August 17, 2004

Mr. Cob wrote:

Howdy Patch29,

Thank you for the link, it was very informative and easily showed the differance between the cameras I want to stay with Sony simply because I already have a Sony F707, the DSC-P sieres of cameras seem to operate in much the same manner and will use the same memory sticks that I now have, also the way the DSC-P cameras download on to the computer is the same as with my F707.

I am one of those folks who is extreamly intimadated by technoligy, I have a bad memory and have a very hard time learning new things. A couple of years ago the VA set me up with a computer, the Sony F707 still camera and a Cannon G1 vidio camera. The still camera I have learned to handle fairly well, the vidio camera I can use but I have NOT yet figured out how to use the editing program ( Premire 6 ) that is so far beyond me as to make it worthless. The VA set me up with all of this wonderful equipment and gave me next to nothing in the way of training on how to use it ( your tax payer dollars at work ) I do my best to learn on my own and with the help of a few others on this list.

As I do most of my picture taking from the seat of a motorcycle, I need something more compact and easier to carry then the F707, thus my interst in the DSC-P siers cameras. Thanks again for your help

Those reasons sound good enough for me. I would look at the 93 or 100. The biggest difference being the battery type. For my riding camera I use the Canon S1 which uses AA batteries. I happen to have a ton of Nimh AA rechargeable so batteries are not an issue. I prefer them on P&S cameras for a few reasons. They tend to be cheaper than Li dedicated batteries and they are multipurpose. If you camp or travel you can use the AA's from your mini-maglight (or similar device) in a pinch in either device. You also need to carry only one charger for the batteries. I bought some Energizer Nimh AA's at Sam's club (Target and other retailers have them as well). They are currently up to 2300mAh rating, the higher the number the longer they last. These last a long time for me, for AA's. They were cheap, about $2.00/battery and were available with and without a charger. They had two types of chargers 1-hour (which came with both AC and DC connections, power from you motorcycle if you have a plug, which I do not. :cry ) or a slow charger (14-15 hr) with AC only, both chargers are compact enough to travel with. The one hour is nice because you can get a good charge at lunch/dinner stops.

Here is a shot of the one hour charger with DC adapter, the AC is a little larger but still compact.

One other helpful thing to do would be to get a hands on with the 93 and 100 to view the screen size, slightly smaller with the 93.

I checked and B+H offers the 93 for $309.00 for reference.

Seamaiden · August 19, 2004

dugmar wrote:

I've ordered a lot of stuff from newegg.com, probably at least 10 orders, including an olympus point and shoot, numerous memory cards and most recently a twin battery grip for my digital rebel. I've never had a problem and they ship fast and cheap. (And I work in mail order.) Prices aren't the best, but not the worst either. I give two thumbs up to newegg.com

Doug

I never have ordered anything from NewEgg, but my boyfriend has (just this week, as a matter of fact), and it was a HUGE pain in the butt! Just huge, so much so that, had we time to shop elsewhere, we would have.

onethumb · August 27, 2004

Seamaiden wrote:

I never have ordered anything from NewEgg, but my boyfriend has (just this week, as a matter of fact), and it was a HUGE pain in the butt! Just huge, so much so that, had we time to shop elsewhere, we would have.

Newegg has been so fantastic for me (including a return on a faulty product, and many dozens of other perfect purchases), I almost never look elsewhere for things anymore.

They're usually competitive price-wise, their website is a bit rough around the edges (though improving rapidly lately), but the service has been great.

Every company (smugmug included!) makes mistakes -- what really sets great ones apart is how they deal with the mistakes. Newegg's been impressive every time for me. Of course, YMMV.

Don

ysr612 · August 29, 2004

onethumb wrote:

Newegg has been so fantastic for me (including a return on a faulty product, and many dozens of other perfect purchases), I almost never look elsewhere for things anymore.

They're usually competitive price-wise, their website is a bit rough around the edges (though improving rapidly lately), but the service has been great.

Every company (smugmug included!) makes mistakes -- what really sets great ones apart is how they deal with the mistakes. Newegg's been impressive every time for me. Of course, YMMV.

Don

I bought from newegg about a couple of months ago and they were great.

got a little dsc-p72

Seamaiden · September 7, 2004

onethumb wrote:

Newegg has been so fantastic for me (including a return on a faulty product, and many dozens of other perfect purchases), I almost never look elsewhere for things anymore.

They're usually competitive price-wise, their website is a bit rough around the edges (though improving rapidly lately), but the service has been great.

Every company (smugmug included!) makes mistakes -- what really sets great ones apart is how they deal with the mistakes. Newegg's been impressive every time for me. Of course, YMMV.

Don

Yeah, we've both heard the same thing about NewEgg, but the beau's a professional data guy, and when he has to order the same mobo three times in a row and he's got a customer waiting, it gets OLD, fast. We figure that about 75% of the time he's got to return a faulty product - not necessarily the fault of NewEgg, yet it's a problem we have yet to encounter with ZipZoomFly (our preferred geekster's hard/software vendor), with one notable exception of a floppy drive that burned sizzled upon powering up.

<shrug> Maybe it's just us! <giggle>

pierce · February 4, 2005

buydig ?
resellerratings and others seem to give buydig.com reasonably good scores, very few folks with gripes. the vendors site *looks* kind of skanky, but they have excellent prices, and not totally outrageous shipping (ok, $22 for 3-5 day on a P&S is a bit high, but not as bad as some).

anyways, I just ordered a Canon S70 for $392 from them, USA model, all stock accessories, standard USA Canon SKU#. Guess I'll find out in a week whether they are any good.

Buying a Camera? How To Not Get Ripped Off.

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